Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Samuel Loury]

Eric S Fraga  writes:

> On Sunday,  6 Mar 2016 at 20:26, Samuel Loury wrote:
>> Samuel Loury  writes:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I will clean the *elc files and send another report. I will also
>>> deactivate the advises not to pollute the results.
>>
>> Actually, profiler reports don't look really easy to read. I provide one
>> in here but I don't know if it is helpful.
>
> Your previous profiler report was easier to read... what did you do
> differently this time?

Hmmm... Honestly, I don't know. I am not sure how the profiler works and
what is THE way to share reports.

I will investigate the topic and share a more readable report if I find
some time.

IMHO, it is less (but still) annoying to wait a minute for the data to
be processed than having to use the emacs interface to access the
data. In that sense, I am spending more efforts in finding a way to
control emacs with another user interface (most likely using Kivy for
the UI and pymacs for the interaction with emacs) than in finding a way
to make org mode more efficient.

My best,
-- 
Konubinix
GPG Key: 7439106A
Fingerprint: 5993 BE7A DA65 E2D9 06CE  5C36 75D2 3CED 7439 106A


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Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Eric S Fraga]

On Sunday,  6 Mar 2016 at 20:26, Samuel Loury wrote:
> Samuel Loury  writes:
>
> [...]
>
>> I will clean the *elc files and send another report. I will also
>> deactivate the advises not to pollute the results.
>
> Actually, profiler reports don't look really easy to read. I provide one
> in here but I don't know if it is helpful.

Your previous profiler report was easier to read... what did you do
differently this time?

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 25.0.90.1, Org release_8.3.3-535-g7213aa

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Samuel Loury]

Eric S Fraga  writes:

> On Monday, 22 Feb 2016 at 10:04, Samuel Loury wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Reproducing a slow behavior is not easy. Today, the agenda is produced
>> in about 10s with almost the same contents. I included the profiler
>> report anyway, hoping that you will find something useful in it.
>>
>> - command-execute3301  91%
>
> [...]
>
>>- ad-Advice-org-agenda2868  79%
>> - #  1922  53%
>>  - byte-code 1922  53%
>
> out of curiousity, what or how are you advising org-agenda?

I add two advises on top of org-agenda. The first one, executed before,
compute a set of contexts to filter the agenda view. The second,
is executed after and add coloring text-properties to help separating
the available contexts.

> also, the profile information would be most useful without compiled
> code (although obviously slower...).

I will clean the *elc files and send another report. I will also
deactivate the advises not to pollute the results.

-- 
Konubinix
GPG Key: 7439106A
Fingerprint: 5993 BE7A DA65 E2D9 06CE  5C36 75D2 3CED 7439 106A


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Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Eric S Fraga]

On Monday, 22 Feb 2016 at 10:04, Samuel Loury wrote:

[...]

> Reproducing a slow behavior is not easy. Today, the agenda is produced
> in about 10s with almost the same contents. I included the profiler
> report anyway, hoping that you will find something useful in it.
>
> - command-execute3301  91%

[...]

>- ad-Advice-org-agenda2868  79%
> - #  1922  53%
>  - byte-code 1922  53%

out of curiousity, what or how are you advising org-agenda?  also, the
profile information would be most useful without compiled code (although
obviously slower...).

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 25.0.90.1, Org release_8.3.3-535-g7213aa

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Samuel Loury]

Hello,
Nicolas Goaziou  writes:

> Samuel Loury  writes:
>
>> I have made a custom agenda command¹ to implement a "kind of" GTD
>> workflow.
>>
>> On a quite old computer with no SSD disk, the commands takes about 20
>> seconds. My org files sum up to 27K lines and 2629 headings (with the
>> archives, there are 5630 headings in 66K lines).
>>
>> I attached the result of elp-instrument-package "org-" when running this
>> command without the archives. I don't know if that helps...
>
> So Org is slow only when calling the agenda?

I would not reach that conclusion so fast. Since I spent most of my time
using the agenda, it is the place where I am most likely to experience
slowness, but that does not mean that org is slow only in that
situation.

On the other hand, I often use the following snippet of code to make
sure the org element cache is up to date and it is very fast (~1s).

--8<---cut here---start->8---
(mapc
 (lambda (file)
   (save-window-excursion
 (save-excursion
 (find-file file)
 (org-element-cache-reset)
 )
 )
   )
 (org-agenda-files)
 )
--8<---cut here---end--->8---

> Could you also send a profiler report? Thank you.

Reproducing a slow behavior is not easy. Today, the agenda is produced
in about 10s with almost the same contents. I included the profiler
report anyway, hoping that you will find something useful in it.

- command-execute3301  91%
 - call-interactively3301  91%
  - eval-last-sexp   2868  79%
   - eval-last-sexp-12868  79%
- eval   2868  79%
 - org-agenda2868  79%
  - apply2868  79%
   - ad-Advice-org-agenda2868  79%
- #  1922  53%
 - byte-code 1922  53%
  - org-agenda-run-series1922  53%
   - org-let21221  33%
- eval   1221  33%
 - let   1221  33%
  - let  1221  33%
   - org-todo-list595  16%
- byte-code   583  16%
 - byte-code  463  12%
  - org-agenda-get-day-entries463  12%
   - org-agenda-get-todos 459  12%
- byte-code   431  11%
   org-get-priority   136   3%
 - org-agenda-skip 96   2%
  - org-agenda-skip-eval   96   2%
   - eval  96   2%
- konix/org-agenda-skip-if-tags 96   2%
 - let 96   2%
  - setq   92   2%
   - org-get-tags-at   80   2%
- byte-code72   1%
 - byte-code   72   1%
  - org-up-heading-safe 56   1%
 org-outline-level  8   0%
  - org-remove-uninherited-tags  4  
 0%
 org-delete-all 4   0%
  - error   4   0%
 apply  4   0%
  org-remove-uninherited-tags  4   
0%
   - progn  8   0%
  outline-next-heading  8   0%
  - while   4   0%
 if 4   0%
 - org-agenda-format-item  67   1%
  - replace-regexp-in-string   16   0%
 apply  4   0%
  - org-agenda-fix-displayed-tags 15   0%
   - mapconcat 

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Samuel Loury  writes:

> I have made a custom agenda command¹ to implement a "kind of" GTD
> workflow.
>
> On a quite old computer with no SSD disk, the commands takes about 20
> seconds. My org files sum up to 27K lines and 2629 headings (with the
> archives, there are 5630 headings in 66K lines).
>
> I attached the result of elp-instrument-package "org-" when running this
> command without the archives. I don't know if that helps...

So Org is slow only when calling the agenda? Could you also send
a profiler report? Thank you.


Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Samuel Loury]

Hi,
Nicolas Goaziou  writes:

> Samuel Loury  writes:
>
>> Nevertheless, org-mode is rather slow when my todo.org file becomes
>> quite large (~20K lines).
>
> Could you share some profiler information under typical usage so that we
> can tell which parts are slow?

I have made a custom agenda command¹ to implement a "kind of" GTD
workflow.

On a quite old computer with no SSD disk, the commands takes about 20
seconds. My org files sum up to 27K lines and 2629 headings (with the
archives, there are 5630 headings in 66K lines).

I attached the result of elp-instrument-package "org-" when running this
command without the archives. I don't know if that helps...

My best :-).
org-agenda-redo   1   
18.523051518.5230515
org-agenda-run-series 1   
13.822207838  13.822207838
org-let2  4   
10.361238463  2.5903096157
org-agenda-get-day-entries245 
7.8211318620  0.0319229871
org-todo-list 1   
4.242655788   4.242655788
org-agenda-list   2   
3.819318714   1.909659357
org-agenda-get-todos  35  
3.592892502   0.1026540714
org-let   2   
3.446571314   1.723285657
org-agenda-goto   580 
2.7936375289  0.0048166164
org-tags-view 1   
2.299200757   2.299200757
org-scan-tags 35  
2.293939894   0.0655411398
org-agenda-prepare-buffers6   
2.200799137   0.3667998561
org-agenda-get-sexps  70  
2.0172191590  0.0288174165
org-diary-sexp-entry  9   
2.0077601339  0.2230844593
org-outline-level 9910
1.9457936820  0.0001963464
org-agenda-prepare5   
1.9130132399  0.3826026479
org-diary 3   
1.769465726   0.5898219086
org-agenda-skip-eval  3124
1.6885327159  0.0005405034
org-get-tags-at   2746
1.6866494770  0.0006142204
org-agenda-skip   2126
1.5673435740  0.0007372265
org-agenda-finalize   5   
1.534251945   0.306850389
org-agenda-mode   1   
1.256090736   1.256090736
org-agenda-get-deadlines  210 
1.2349923170  0.0058809157
org-up-heading-safe   3295
1.0934742469  0.0003318586
org-back-to-heading   14062   
1.0211351570  7.261...e-05
org-agenda-to-appt2   
0.860954804   0.430477402
org-end-of-subtree1746
0.8471089869  0.0004851712
org-agenda-finalize-entries   4   
0.636714557   0.1591786392
org-refresh-properties420 
0.5715409850  0.0013608118
org-get-entries-from-diary1   
0.461614148   0.461614148
org-agenda-get-timestamps 210 
0.4608280769  0.0021944194
org-agenda-get-scheduled  210 
0.4060911670  0.0019337674
org-agenda-align-tags 1   
0.381108939   0.381108939
org-agenda-highlight-todo 829 
0.3807340809  0.0004592690
org-get-todo-state2071
0.3624726299  0.0001750229
org-refresh-effort-properties 210 
0.3425058340  0.0016309801
org-flag-heading  1173
0.2918298459  0.0002487892
org-activate-plain-links  363 
0.269716567   0.0007430208
org-refresh-stats-properties  210 
0.236244147   0.0011249721
org-refresh-property  264 
0.2290685090  0.0008676837
org-show-context  580 
0.2155166490  0.0003715804
org-is-habit-p163 
0.176636081   0.0010836569

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Eric S Fraga]

On Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 17:44, Nicolas Goaziou wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Samuel Loury  writes:
>
>> Nevertheless, org-mode is rather slow when my todo.org file becomes
>> quite large (~20K lines).
>
> Could you share some profiler information under typical usage so that we
> can tell which parts are slow?
>
> Regards,

Nicolas,

in case it helps you, here are results from elp-instrument-package for
org for a default agenda view.  My agenda files have >50k lines.

--8<---cut here---start->8---
org-agenda  16.273196422   6.273196422
org-agenda-list 16.097429472   6.097429472
org-agenda-prepare  15.759004218   5.759004218
org-agenda-prepare-buffers  15.749659525.74965952
org-get-agenda-file-buffer  24   5.2378653290  0.2182443887
org-mode12   4.682173111   0.3901810925
org-bullets-mode12   4.297196221   0.3580996850
org-activate-dates  8094 0.9626486539  0.0001189336
org-do-latex-and-related57   0.902587610.0158348703
org-fontify-meta-lines-and-blocks   558  0.8863723670  0.0015884809
org-fontify-meta-lines-and-blocks-1 558  0.8854672459  0.0015868588
org-src-font-lock-fontify-block 115  0.8548640270  0.0074336002
org-display-custom-time 8081 0.5510519969  6.819...e-05
org-imenu-get-tree  90.258258335   0.0286953705
org-refresh-category-properties 12   0.247122660.020593555
org-agenda-get-day-entries  12   0.2210667090  0.018457
org-parse-time-string   9288 0.1951283320  2.100...e-05
org-fontify-drawers 5818 0.1932821849  3.322...e-05
--8<---cut here---end--->8---

Curiously, org-bullets-mode seems to be the main bottleneck on my system
(Debian testing with 8 core Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2760QM CPU @ 2.40GHz)

If I remove the org-bullets and org-ellipses customisations, I get:

--8<---cut here---start->8---
org-agenda  11.442858014   1.442858014
org-agenda-list 11.267505347   1.267505347
org-agenda-prepare  11.055099145   1.055099145
org-agenda-prepare-buffers  11.050210531   1.050210531
org-get-agenda-file-buffer  24   0.6879062640  0.0286627610
org-imenu-get-tree  90.2137700209  0.0237522245
org-agenda-get-day-entries  12   0.203279769   0.0169399807
org-agenda-get-restriction-and-command  10.175206608   0.175206608
org-agenda-get-scheduled12   0.161025292   0.0134187743
--8<---cut here---end--->8---

A > 4× improvement!

Maybe the OP is customising bullets as well...

Thanks,
eric
-- 
: Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 25.0.91.1, Org release_8.3.3-601-gff9890

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Samuel Loury  writes:

> Nevertheless, org-mode is rather slow when my todo.org file becomes
> quite large (~20K lines).

Could you share some profiler information under typical usage so that we
can tell which parts are slow?

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Eric S Fraga]

On Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 15:14, Samuel Loury wrote:

[...]

> I still like a lot the liberty of the "plain text approach" of
> org-mode. It is VERY powerful, but it becomes a real problem when
> needing to use that power without emacs.

Yes, org works well because of the plain-text approach but only because
it has the power of emacs behind it!  Without emacs, org would not be
anywhere as useful as it is.  It's the whole customisation capability
that makes it useful for as many people as it does.  All other tools
force you to conform to the decisions the authors of the tool made
whereas, with emacs, I can customise almost everything that relates to
my interaction with org.

Simple example: I use evil in Emacs as I prefer a modal interface to
alleviate RSI.  I therefore do not actually use any of the default key
bindings that come with org.  For instance, ", e" invokes
org-export-dispatch. ">" is org-meta-right.  Etc.

Actually, this reminds me of one problem area in org: the org export
dispatcher has key bindings hard coded in ("l" for LaTeX, etc.).  I wish
I could customise these.  My bugbear is ox-reveal that requires me to
hit a shift key, something I prefer to avoid as much as possible.

(I know the bindings come from the individual ox- files, not the
dispatcher per se.)
-- 
: Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 25.0.90.1, Org release_8.3.3-597-gcaf66e

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Samuel Loury]

luke call  writes:

> On 02/02/16 00:23, Robert Klein wrote:

[...]

>> As your 'product' is
>> not relevant to org-mode []
>
> I mentioned OM here only because I thought it of interest to
> org-mode users, which it evidently was to at least two who thanked me,
> and I answered their questions, in order not to be rude to them.

I also thank you for that :-). For the time being, I use org-mode
because of all the features it provides (clocking, reporting, literate
programming, publishing, etc...). I implement a GTD-like workflow in it
with an integrated pomodoro timer and it works like a charm.

Nevertheless, org-mode is rather slow when my todo.org file becomes
quite large (~20K lines).

Also, it is a real pain to implement a tool that uses its information
From in some other language than elisp. I have been trying for some time
to implement a competitor of MobileOrg with python-for-android/kivy and
the most difficult part is by far extracting the information out of the
.org files. Actually, I am no fall-backing on a client/server approach
in which emacs is the server, giving access to the org content.

I still like a lot the liberty of the "plain text approach" of
org-mode. It is VERY powerful, but it becomes a real problem when
needing to use that power without emacs.

I did not try onemodel yet, but it looks like it palliates those two
problems. I will definitely take a look at it.

Thank you again for sharing.

-- 
Konubinix
GPG Key: 7439106A
Fingerprint: 5993 BE7A DA65 E2D9 06CE  5C36 75D2 3CED 7439 106A


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Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Ramon Diaz-Uriarte]

On Mon, 01-02-2016, at 22:25, luke call  wrote:
> On 01/31/16 08:37, Ramon Diaz-Uriarte wrote:
>  > Thanks for the link. Good-faith question here: does it support spaced
>  > repetition such as provided by org-drill
>  > (http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/org-drill.html) or Anki
>  > (http://ankisrs.net/), for memorizing some of the stored knowledge? I
>  > skimmed through the docs and googled for it, but did not find anything
>  > relevant.
>
> It's interesting that you asked, as i like anki and have planned for 
> some time to add that feature to OM.  OM is partly already set up for 
> it, just not fully implemented yet.  This has a dependency on another 
> future feature which is to associate scripts with objects (entities) in 
> the system, so that the menu can also reflect any user-defined 
> operations on the entity in view.


Thanks for the details.

(As Eric Fraga mentioned, though, I really like that org is all text; and
specifically for the spaced repetition part, even if I do use Anki, I
actually feel slightly uneasy with Anki because I miss the sense of control
and immediacy of just opening a simple text file and modifying it ---yes, I
know I can import and export from/to text).

Best,

>
> Patches/assistance welcome. :)  I'm currently seeing how to get postgres 
> to do what OM wants, for windows installation.
>
> You might want to sign up for the announcements list at least.
>
> -Luke


-- 
Ramon Diaz-Uriarte
Department of Biochemistry, Lab B-25
Facultad de Medicina
Universidad Autónoma de Madrid 
Arzobispo Morcillo, 4
28029 Madrid
Spain

Phone: +34-91-497-2412

Email: rdia...@gmail.com
   ramon.d...@iib.uam.es

http://ligarto.org/rdiaz

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2016-02-01, at 23:15, luke call  wrote:

> I originally reported here because I thought there could be interest to 
> this community, but out of respect I wonder if further conversation 
> should move to the onemodel.org list(s), unless the culture here allows 
> going widely off-topic from org-mode use.  :)  I'm happy either way if 
> others are.

I, for one, would definitely like an occasional update (say, once
a month or two) about the progress on this project.  Even if I do not
want to leave Org, I might want to suggest OM to a friend, for
instance.  And I definitely do not want to subscribe to yet another
mailing list only for that.

Since many people would consider this off-topic, perhaps a better idea
would be a blog with an RSS channel, updated - say - once every few
weeks.  I would gladly subscribe to that.

> Thanks!
> Luke

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[luke call]

On 02/03/16 02:33, Marcin Borkowski wrote:

I, for one, would definitely like an occasional update (say, once
a month or two) about the progress on this project.  Even if I do not
want to leave Org, I might want to suggest OM to a friend, for
instance.  And I definitely do not want to subscribe to yet another
mailing list only for that.

Since many people would consider this off-topic, perhaps a better idea
would be a blog with an RSS channel, updated - say - once every few
weeks.  I would gladly subscribe to that.


Thanks! The announcements list is monthly, approximately:
  https://pairlist10.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/om-announce
... with no discussion.

The general list:
  https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/om-list
... is of course more.

They are both also at www.onemodel.org, under "Community...".

If you still definitely prefer a low-frequency blog for announcements, 
email me privately to help me understand better.  (Unless you think 
others here might also prefer that...)


Thanks for the feedback!!
-Luke

(Org-mode seems global.  I have some interest in languages, and how easy 
or hard second languages are.  Esperanto seems so cool: this is under 
the "not project-related" site section:
http://www.onemodel.org/1/e-9223372036854618463.html .  Private replies 
for that topic.)

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Bingo UV]

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 15:15:03 -0700
luke call  wrote:


> I'm not org-mode power-user but what I recall from my use years ago
> is that I moved away because of the # of keystrokes to do operations, 
> having to open different files for different topics, and that one
> single set of notes couldn't be in more than one place.
>   


Hi,
   While I am no authority, I will present some information and
   evidence about why one thing should be only in one place if its
   purpose is consumption by human beings. It also matches my
   personal experience - your mileage may vary:

https://blog.evernote.com/blog/2015/12/11/evernote-and-the-brain-designing-creativity-workflows/

Don't let the evernote.com mislead you - the article is not entirely
praising  of evernote and presents scientific evidence where
applicable.

From this, I gather that tools promoting explicitly
preemptive inter-connection between knowledge pieces like this
one-model seems to be are not likely the best uses of
one's own brain. Even attempts at exquisite tagging and
cross-referencing within emacs org-mode are ill-advised.

PS : while the thread is otherwise off-topic, I hope this post was less
off-topic.

thanks

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[luke call]

On 02/03/16 10:15, Bingo UV wrote:

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 15:15:03 -0700
luke call  wrote:


I'm not org-mode power-user but what I recall from my use years ago
is that I moved away because of the # of keystrokes to do operations,
having to open different files for different topics, and that one
single set of notes couldn't be in more than one place.


While I am no authority, I will present some information and
evidence about why one thing should be only in one place if its
purpose is consumption by human beings. It also matches my
personal experience - your mileage may vary:

https://blog.evernote.com/blog/2015/12/11/evernote-and-the-brain-designing-creativity-workflows/

 From this, I gather that tools promoting explicitly
preemptive inter-connection between knowledge pieces like this
one-model seems to be are not likely the best uses of
one's own brain. Even attempts at exquisite tagging and
cross-referencing within emacs org-mode are ill-advised.


Thanks for that comment and the link to his very thoughtful article. So, 
about multiple connections to the same thing and modeling knowledge with 
org-mode or any tool.  I think the author makes a good case for  using 
such connections, just not with tags.


In real life, the same entity is relevant to many contexts, and in 
representation it is useful to allow easy connections to & from those 
contexts.  For example, a entity representing a physical book is 
relevant to and can be thought of in connection with its location, its 
publisher, owner, topic, contents, author,  history, physical properties 
(newtonian physics...), purchase history, seller, account, book 
borrowers, etc.  Each of those things in turn has rich data and 
associations in the real world.  I think it usually far best not to 
duplicate the info about any entity or the knowledge of its existence in 
multiple places, because that leads to duplicate work and loss of 
utility, such as the ability to get the most out of all our knowledge, 
such as for various kinds of computation & rich queries.  This is 
fundamental in SQL theory for similar reasons.


(I see his point about tags, but partly disagree with the article author 
about those, because I use such thing with the intent to create all the 
ones I might think of using for a search, so it works in reverse: make 
the tag help me as I am, *not* make me work to remember the tag (who is 
servant vs. master).  And when making associations, use all those that 
work best for you.  Or just full-text search and periodic (hopefully 
easy/efficient) reorganization of ideas that are changing.)


Human memory improvement discussion often also recommends improving 
memory by creating associations. For me at least, any tool that is to be 
an aid to my mind benefits by allowing the same, so they work together 
well. In practice I go to the same entity by varying paths, depending on 
circumstance.


I do like the author's five numbered points (based on some skim & some 
reading).  He likes mind-maps, for example, which org-mode can 
approximate and OM subsumes (though not yet with diagrams: I'd like OM 
to generate those someday).  One has to decide what resonates, 
intuitively, as the author says.  In my efforts, I'm optimizing now for 
comprehensiveness and simplicity, and (hopefully very soon) for 
collaboration.


My answer to his desired "middle path" is to consider what *is* and 
model that, rather than creating paragraphs!  Instead, use entities with 
properties and relations, updating as understanding improves, which 
*really* helps with the problem of "loading and unloading" (I like how 
he put that).  I strongly feel as a knowledge worker that I have a core 
process of systematic improvement and all this is central to it.  *To 
model reality is the best way to work toward learning what is, _and_ to 
achieve his goals in optimizing "note design"* and to find what he calls 
"intelligent emergence": it cannot come optimally from being really good 
at managing huge piles of words, but rather managing knowledge which has 
one representation which we call words, others of images or animation, 
and still others of whatever we can create.


So an aim is to let recorded knowledge match reality as far as can be 
practical, with efficiency.


Thanks again for bringing this up.
-Luke

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Eric S Fraga]

Hi Luke,

thanks for the very comprehensive answer.  I can now see where you are
heading.  And it's a laudable direction.

But not for me because of one fundamental property of org: "it's all
text".

I've been in this business a very *long* time and, if I've learnt
anything at all, it's that formats come and go but text remains [1].  If
I have any issue with what org or emacs are doing, I *know* that I can
open up the file in vim, say, and have all my content available.  Or I
can M-x text-mode RET in emacs and I can see everything as well.

YMMV, of course :-)

Thanks again,
eric

Footnotes: 
[1]  well, I did start with EBCDIC, moved to US-ASCII and now use UTF-8...

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 25.0.50.1, Org release_8.3.3-449-gd85ff3

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[luke call]

On 02/02/16 00:23, Robert Klein wrote:
> So I have to actually pay for export (C-c C-e in org-mode and more
> formats to export to), searching (C-s and C-r in emacs,
> probably more in org-mode) and /maybe/ recent bugfixes? And probably 
> no Emacs shortcut keys.


All features are in the free/open code; really everything is in github
under a Free license.  (If anyone provides the least assistance to the
project, even just some feedback and joins the announcements list, I'll
currently send them the compiled full binary upon request, as the web
site indicates.)


As your 'product' is
not relevant to org-mode []


I mentioned OM here only because I thought it of interest to
org-mode users, which it evidently was to at least two who thanked me,
and I answered their questions, in order not to be rude to them.


If you have to offer a exporter for org-mode exporting stuff to your
product you're very welcome to present it here.


Org-mode can save to outlines AFAIK.  Import of text outlines
(with possible manual adjustments) works in OM. Thanks for mentioning
it.

You're right that anything else now should probably best be on the
www.onemodel.org mailing lists.

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[luke call]

On 01/31/16 08:37, Ramon Diaz-Uriarte wrote:
> Thanks for the link. Good-faith question here: does it support spaced
> repetition such as provided by org-drill
> (http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/org-drill.html) or Anki
> (http://ankisrs.net/), for memorizing some of the stored knowledge? I
> skimmed through the docs and googled for it, but did not find anything
> relevant.

It's interesting that you asked, as i like anki and have planned for 
some time to add that feature to OM.  OM is partly already set up for 
it, just not fully implemented yet.  This has a dependency on another 
future feature which is to associate scripts with objects (entities) in 
the system, so that the menu can also reflect any user-defined 
operations on the entity in view.


Patches/assistance welcome. :)  I'm currently seeing how to get postgres 
to do what OM wants, for windows installation.


You might want to sign up for the announcements list at least.

-Luke

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[luke call]

On 01/31/16 05:32, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> I'll bite: so what does onemodel solve that org does not do?  Serious
> question as I have gone through the web site and I cannot see the USP of
> this system.

Also a really good question.  I'll state it as compared to what I 
remember of org-mode, but it's been years and I was not a power user. 
For someone who hasn't known of anything like org-mode I'd present it 
differently.


Short version:
1) Faster nagivation, and faster sorting/reorganizing of data, so you 
can do it almost without thinking about the app, just about the info.
2) A given entity (with all eventual references it contains) can be 
present in as many places as you want (effectively link anything 
anywhere as many times as desired).  Go from X to Z in a single 
keystroke, no matter where you are, if you want.

3) Much easier to learn.
4) No artificial boundaries between data: no having to open separate 
files.  Everything can be integrated into one.

5) Extremely large amounts of data without becoming unwieldy.
6) (Not exactly what you asked, but important)  A very different future 
vision because the data in OM is structured to be *computable*, opening 
up features that are hard to do when processing semi-structured text, or 
human language as a primary representation.  A current example of this 
(automatic work journal) is below in the detailed section, with other 
examples.



Longer version (feedback appreciated):

1)
I'm not org-mode power-user but what I recall from my use years ago is 
that I moved away because of the # of keystrokes to do operations, 
having to open different files for different topics, and that one single 
set of notes couldn't be in more than one place.


OM fixes those things, in part by making each thing not a chunk of text 
but an entity (an object), where the data about it is stored in 
attributes which are known by the system to be boolean, url, numeric 
(with unit and type, eg 3 meters length), date, etc, so that in the 
(hopefully near) future those things can be used in calculations.  More 
on that in #8 below.


Example:  I can go from anywhere to "wife gift ideas" by holding down 
ESC briefly then hitting 5gd, which I can don't have to memorize because 
it's always on the screen in each menu as I go.  Or, depending on where 
I am already, I might just hit a single keystroke or two.  Or, quickly 
search from anywhere by typing "42gift ideas", browsing around, and ESC 
back to where I was. etc for any data I want: it's usually just a few 
keystrokes away unless I can't remember any of the 
natural-world-association nagivation paths and have to text search.  I 
can get to my OM to-do list with 5daa.  To my monthly financial 
reminders with 5ac6i but maybe that should be put in a shorter & more 
memorable path.


An example for sorting info:  (I wished for things like this as a 
student.)  I can very quickly create a text outline, adding stuff 
quickly and without thinking about the UI, as one would in drafting text 
for a paper.  But in OM, I can then also move one paragraph (and all 
sub-contents in the outline) up one entry with 23, or down several 
entries with 25 or 26, etc.  I can move an item up into the parent list 
with 8x8 or down into one that should become the parent, with at most 
7y8x7.  Those are automatic now.  Then one could export it as a text 
outline to open in LibreOffice for fonts & printing.  Or export it as 
html which is how I currently create the web site. (Maybe I should add 
some CSS support there).



2)
Same thing in many places:  To link the current entity in at a 
completely different place, you copy part of its name (or id) to the 
clipboard, go to another place (or another open terminal tab), and hit 
42/paste/a or such to insert it at the other place. Now it is in both 
places, or as many as you like. I use this heavily.



3)
Ease of learning:  emacs is powerful and can have a heavy (but 
rewarding) learning curve.  In OM, every operation is always on the 
screen, in a runtime-generated context-driven menu, and is often a 
single keystroke.



4)
Not sure what to add, except it's really nice.


5)
Ditto.  I got tired of moving paragraphs around, just to want to move it 
back, or frequently reopening separate files (years ago), and with OM 
you just jump there or link/inlink with a keystroke or several.



6)
Not exactly what you asked, but: OM has a very different future vision 
for things like cloud use.  And for enabling certain items to be marked 
for "sharing" with others, with ability to for others to watch/link/copy 
etc those items, so that we build up huge shared knowledge bases but 
still have individual control as far as desired.  Sort of like one's own 
personal anki+wikipedia, but not losing the benefits of a global 
wikipedia+freebase.  And more.


A *currently working* example of this is the ~"journal" feature, where 
OM can provide a (today very simple, raw) report on activity in the 
system by a date range: 

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Robert Klein]

Hi,

luke call  wrote:

> There's a program that org-mode users (as I have been) specifically 
> might be interested in, a personal "knowledge manager"/list 
> manager/organizer/etc called OneModel (Free/AGPL).  Instead of
> storing data as text, it puts *everything* in a single object model
> backed by postgresql, but text import/export are available.
> Everything one needs to know at any given time is always on the
> screen, and it is *highly* efficient to navigate (so far
> keyboard-only).  Current strengths, limitations, and future plans are
> at: http://onemodel.org
> 
> Pls forgive & spare the flames, I'll probably go quiet unless to
> answer good-faith questions.  Details & discussion at
> http://onemodel.org site/lists if desired.


So I have to actually pay for export (C-c C-e in org-mode and more
formats to export to), searching (C-s and C-r in emacs,
probably more in org-mode) and /maybe/ recent bugfixes? And probably no
Emacs shortcut keys.

You've been told not to advertise on openbsd-misc.  As your 'product' is
not relevant to org-mode, I suggest the same applies to the org-mode
list, too.

If you have to offer a exporter for org-mode exporting stuff to your
product you're very welcome to present it here.


Best regards
Robert

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Eric S Fraga]

I'll bite: so what does onemodel solve that org does not do?  Serious
question as I have gone through the web site and I cannot see the USP of
this system.

Thanks,
eric
-- 
: Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 25.0.50.1, Org release_8.3.3-497-gc74b99

Re: [O] "atomic knowledge" modeling tool

[Ramon Diaz-Uriarte]

On Fri, 29-01-2016, at 19:21, luke call  wrote:
> There's a program that org-mode users (as I have been) specifically 
> might be interested in, a personal "knowledge manager"/list 
> manager/organizer/etc called OneModel (Free/AGPL).  Instead of storing 
> data as text, it puts *everything* in a single object model backed by 
> postgresql, but text import/export are available.  Everything one needs 
> to know at any given time is always on the screen, and it is *highly* 
> efficient to navigate (so far keyboard-only).  Current strengths, 
> limitations, and future plans are at:
>http://onemodel.org
>
> Pls forgive & spare the flames, I'll probably go quiet unless to answer 
> good-faith questions.  Details & discussion at http://onemodel.org 
> site/lists if desired.

Thanks for the link. Good-faith question here: does it support spaced
repetition such as provided by org-drill
(http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/org-drill.html) or Anki
(http://ankisrs.net/), for memorizing some of the stored knowledge? I
skimmed through the docs and googled for it, but did not find anything
relevant.

Best,

R.




>
> -Luke


-- 
Ramon Diaz-Uriarte
Department of Biochemistry, Lab B-25
Facultad de Medicina
Universidad Autónoma de Madrid 
Arzobispo Morcillo, 4
28029 Madrid
Spain

Phone: +34-91-497-2412

Email: rdia...@gmail.com
   ramon.d...@iib.uam.es

http://ligarto.org/rdiaz