Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Bastien b...@gnu.org writes: | Key | Command | Proposal | Status | |---+---+--+| | C-c # | Checkboxes| C-c x| Free | | C-c ~ | Cooperation | C-c C-~ | Free | | C-c , | Priorities| C-c C-, | Free | | C-c ? | Editing and debugging formulas| C-c C-? | Free | | C-c ! | Creating timestamps | C-c C-! | Free | I tried C-c C-! in my environment, and it fails, no noticing the C-! (which involves shift) keypress (with ^H k; I get it that this is proposed). I have C-1 bound in my window manager to switch desktops, since that binding doesn't take away the ability to generate any ASCII character. I'm running emacs -nw under tmux on one machine (netbsd), connected via ssh from a mac using Terminal. While one can argue that various emulations are broken, org should be fully usable with a 7-bit terminal connection, and non-kludgy with an 8-bit connection. In general, I find that emacs works fine with that, although one has to prefix with ESC instead of the meta key. I've always been bothered by keybindings like C-S-left, which while useful, cause there to be no available keystroke sequence to perform the function. I find this surprising; I'd expect within emacs/org culture there to be more people using terminal-mode emacs. pgpRrqLT8J8a0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Hi Sébastien, Sebastien Vauban sva-news-D0wtAvR13HarG/idocf...@public.gmane.org writes: Weird. I don't even see the binding in `find-func.el' (in Emacs trunk from last week): My bad -- this is a custom keybinding of mine, I added it long ago and rediscovered it recently. It definitely deserve a keybinding of its own IMO. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Hi Thomas, t...@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye) writes: Bastien b...@gnu.org writes: A few comments on the last three: - is not a punctuation character, I find C-c instead of C-c ' good. Is it true that is not a punctuation character? It is a string in both fundamental-mode and org-mode, that's what I'm checking. But it is a punctuation character in other modes and maybe in our minds. I agree the intuition is misleading here, because ' is a punctuation character. In any event, C-c is likely to pose the same problem as C-c '. For icicle users, C-c will be shadowed by the keybinding for icicle-search-text-property. ... which, strictly speaking, is not an org-mode problem if is not a punctuation character. At least that's my current working hypothesis. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. It encourages me to find a completely different solution. The one I have in mind now is to use C-c : (and to move the current C-c : binding to C-c C-:). The reasoning is that we have - fixed-width - example blocks - source code blocks which often achieve a similar goal: to present some code snippets. Source blocks are more powerful than example blocks which are more powerful than fixed-width regions. But you can currently edit them all with C-c '. So C-c : would call org-edit-src-code and C-c C-: would convert the region to fixed-width region. What you (and others) think? Eric, what's your take on this, as the father of C-c ' ? -- Bastien
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Hi Nick, Nick Dokos ndo...@gmail.com writes: , |* Don't bind `C-h' following any prefix character (including `C-c'). | If you don't bind `C-h', it is automatically available as a help | character for listing the subcommands of the prefix character. ` That's *very* useful to me - if you don't know about it already, try it: I think you'll find it very useful too! (This one I knew. My own recent discovery was C-h : to directly jump to the definition of a symbol. Pretty useful.) -- Bastien
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Hello Bastien, Bastien wrote: (This one I knew. My own recent discovery was C-h : to directly jump to the definition of a symbol. Pretty useful.) ╭ │ C-h : is undefined ╰ on my side. To what is it bound on your side? Best regards, Seb -- Sebastien Vauban
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Sebastien Vauban sva-news-D0wtAvR13HarG/idocf...@public.gmane.org writes: Bastien wrote: (This one I knew. My own recent discovery was C-h : to directly jump to the definition of a symbol. Pretty useful.) ╭ │ C-h : is undefined ╰ on my side. To what is it bound on your side? find-function C-h : runs the command find-function, which is an interactive autoloaded compiled Lisp function in `find-func.el'. It is bound to C-h :, help :. (find-function FUNCTION) Find the definition of the FUNCTION near point. Finds the source file containing the definition of the function near point (selected by `function-called-at-point') in a buffer and places point before the definition. Set mark before moving, if the buffer already existed. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Bastien, Bastien wrote: Sebastien Vauban writes: Bastien wrote: (This one I knew. My own recent discovery was C-h : to directly jump to the definition of a symbol. Pretty useful.) ╭ │ C-h : is undefined ╰ on my side. To what is it bound on your side? find-function C-h : runs the command find-function, which is an interactive autoloaded compiled Lisp function in `find-func.el'. It is bound to C-h :, help :. (find-function FUNCTION) Find the definition of the FUNCTION near point. Finds the source file containing the definition of the function near point (selected by `function-called-at-point') in a buffer and places point before the definition. Set mark before moving, if the buffer already existed. Weird. I don't even see the binding in `find-func.el' (in Emacs trunk from last week): ╭ │ ;;; find-func.el --- find the definition of the Emacs Lisp function near point │ │ ;; Copyright (C) 1997, 1999, 2001-2014 Free Software Foundation, Inc. │ │ ... │ │ ;;;###autoload │ (defun find-function-setup-keys () │ Define some key bindings for the find-function family of functions. │ (define-key ctl-x-map F 'find-function) │ (define-key ctl-x-4-map F 'find-function-other-window) │ (define-key ctl-x-5-map F 'find-function-other-frame) │ (define-key ctl-x-map K 'find-function-on-key) │ (define-key ctl-x-map V 'find-variable) │ (define-key ctl-x-4-map V 'find-variable-other-window) │ (define-key ctl-x-5-map V 'find-variable-other-frame)) │ │ (provide 'find-func) ╰ Best regards, Seb -- Sebastien Vauban
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Bastien writes: So C-c : would call org-edit-src-code and C-c C-: would convert the region to fixed-width region. You cannot enter C-: in some terminals because it would require simultaneous processing of shift and control (these terminals ignore shift while control is pressed). Regards, Achim. -- +[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]+ SD adaptation for Waldorf microQ V2.22R2: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Hi Samuel, Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com writes: i meant that c-c c-' and c-c c- are both cumbersome for those users who press c-c by holding down the control key with the right hand and then pressing c with the left hand. c-c ' is not cumbersome for those users. I understand better now, thanks. What I don't understand is why keeping the right control key between C-c and C-' is harder than releasing the control key between C-c and ' (or as also proposed.) My experience (which seems the same than Nick's) is that holding the control key down is easier/faster. (I wonder if any serious ergonomical study has been done for Emacs beybindings depending on keyboards.) -- Bastien
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Bastien writes: What I don't understand is why keeping the right control key between C-c and C-' is harder than releasing the control key between C-c and ' (or as also proposed.) My experience (which seems the same than Nick's) is that holding the control key down is easier/faster. That depends on the keyboard layout, but if pressing ' requires the use of the right hand, then you'd need to switch to the laft for pressing Control (unless you were chording it with the right hand, which is probably a bad thing for anyone inflicted with RSI). (I wonder if any serious ergonomical study has been done for Emacs beybindings depending on keyboards.) Quite certainly not. There are oodles of keybindings that really don't work sensibly with anything but a UNIX keyboard and the whole concept is clearly inspired by the Lisp Machine Space Cadet keyboard. I wish I'd still have my Sun Type4 keyboard… Similarly, you really don't get why anybody thought \ was a good path separator until you take a look at the original PC/XT keyboard (it was also a non-modifier key on most terminal keyboards at the time, but / was more prominent there). Regards, Achim. -- +[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]+ Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf rackAttack: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Rasmus ras...@gmx.us writes: For me the following keys need shift or Alt-Gr: ^, , `, !, ?, and ~. Oh, do you really need the Alt-Gr key for `?' and `!' ? Does that mean you don't use `C-c !' or that you rarely use it? Of course, this may have nothing to do with the keybinding itself, but I'm curious. If i can throw in my 2-cents, I have been using Alt-O or(Meta-O if you prefer) for a Ctrl-C, Ctrl-C substitute in org-mode for years. Now i use a combination of an activation key (Alt-O or f4) and a kind of fast-key mnemonic map. I need mnemonics because there is just too much in org-mode, and i prefer to just type an extra key rather than have to bend to hit a semi-random modifier + cryptic keymap entry. so: Alt+o,a = agenda, Alt+o,0 = capture - inbox Alt+o,1 = agenda file 1 Alt+o, A,h = agenda - home tag Alt+o,T,c = org table convert region Alt+o,T,C,b = org table convert buffer. Basically, two keys to most used personal functions. To save the pinkies, alt and shift are the only modifiers. alt for the activator, and shift to dig into a personalised sub-menu. I tried binding to FNkeys, but i could not memorise them. the ah = at home comes naturally to me. I for one will follow this idea with interest. Tim.
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Tim O'Callaghan t...@dspsrv.com writes: Rasmus ras...@gmx.us writes: For me the following keys need shift or Alt-Gr: ^, , `, !, ?, and ~. Oh, do you really need the Alt-Gr key for `?' and `!' ? Does that mean you don't use `C-c !' or that you rarely use it? Of course, this may have nothing to do with the keybinding itself, but I'm curious. If i can throw in my 2-cents, I have been using Alt-O or(Meta-O if you prefer) for a Ctrl-C, Ctrl-C substitute in org-mode for years. Now i use a combination of an activation key (Alt-O or f4) and a kind of fast-key mnemonic map. I need mnemonics because there is just too much in org-mode, and i prefer to just type an extra key rather than have to bend to hit a semi-random modifier + cryptic keymap entry. so: Alt+o,a = agenda, Alt+o,0 = capture - inbox Alt+o,1 = agenda file 1 Alt+o, A,h = agenda - home tag Alt+o,T,c = org table convert region Alt+o,T,C,b = org table convert buffer. Basically, two keys to most used personal functions. To save the pinkies, alt and shift are the only modifiers. alt for the activator, and shift to dig into a personalised sub-menu. I tried binding to FNkeys, but i could not memorise them. the ah = at home comes naturally to me. I for one will follow this idea with interest. I have a similar setup. I use f7 as a prefix key for many org operations (personal ones as well as generic ones, mostly the less common ones but also a few of the very common: e.g. I use f7f7 instead of `C-c a a'). One problem I had was that there are lots of things under that keymap that I didn't use often enough to memorise, so I would end up looking in my keydefs file to figure out where some operation was (and no, I can't remember the names of the functions either...) I recently found out that if after f7 I press C-h, I get a description of the keymap. That's probably well known in some circles, but I only found out about it recently, reading the Key Binding Conventions section in the elisp manual: , |* Don't bind `C-h' following any prefix character (including `C-c'). | If you don't bind `C-h', it is automatically available as a help | character for listing the subcommands of the prefix character. ` That's *very* useful to me - if you don't know about it already, try it: I think you'll find it very useful too! -- Nick
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Bastien b...@gnu.org writes: A few comments on the last three: - is not a punctuation character, I find C-c instead of C-c ' good. Is it true that is not a punctuation character? In any event, C-c is likely to pose the same problem as C-c '. For icicle users, C-c will be shadowed by the keybinding for icicle-search-text-property. At least that's my current working hypothesis. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. All the best, Tom -- Thomas S. Dye http://www.tsdye.com
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Hi Nick, Nick Dokos ndo...@gmail.com writes: On a QWERTY keyboard or Dvorak keyboard, requires Shifting, so you have to switch horses midstream (first Control, then SHift). Not sure about anybody else, but those are the most problematic key sequences for me. I would much prefer C-c C-': you just keep the Control key pressed for the duration. That's actually the same on an AZERTY keyboard, I prefer to keep the control key pressed. Also, the change to C-c C-' is easier to remember. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Hi Samuel, Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com writes: any sequence where one step is on one side and another step is on the other side is fine unless they are both shifted. I understand. I don't think any of the proposed rebindings requires this -- except C-c -- but C-c C-' is better anyway. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Rasmus ras...@gmx.us writes: For me the following keys need shift or Alt-Gr: ^, , `, !, ?, and ~. Oh, do you really need the Alt-Gr key for `?' and `!' ? Does that mean you don't use `C-c !' or that you rarely use it? Of course, this may have nothing to do with the keybinding itself, but I'm curious. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Hi Michael, Michael Brand michael.ch.br...@gmail.com writes: With these two reasons my suggestion is to just drop the binding for (org-update-statistics-cookies). Agreed. If noone objects, I'll remove C-c #. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
On 2/8/14, Bastien b...@gnu.org wrote: I understand. I don't think any of the proposed rebindings requires this -- except C-c -- but C-c C-' is better anyway. hi bastien, c-c c-' is just as bad. control is a modifier key. try it! samuel -- The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. ANYBODY can get it. Denmark: free Karina Hansen NOW.
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
well, almost as bad :). you have to press shift also, but that's a minor difference :).
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com writes: c-c c-' is just as bad. control is a modifier key. try it! I tried it and for me it is better than C-c ' Anyway, let's try to find the best replacement. -- Bastien
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
hi bastien, i meant that c-c c-' and c-c c- are both cumbersome for those users who press c-c by holding down the control key with the right hand and then pressing c with the left hand. c-c ' is not cumbersome for those users. samuel -- The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. ANYBODY can get it. Denmark: free Karina Hansen NOW.
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Bastien wrote: The purpose is to be polite with minor modes and to not use C-c [:punct:] keybindings, as recommended in the Elisp manual. This is related to the issues reported here: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2014-01/msg00866.html http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/82010 Here is a table to summarise the proposal: | Key | Command | Proposal | Status | |---+---+--+| | C-c # | Checkboxes| C-c x| Free | | C-c ~ | Cooperation | C-c C-~ | Free | | C-c , | Priorities| C-c C-, | Free | | C-c ? | Editing and debugging formulas| C-c C-? | Free | | C-c ! | Creating timestamps | C-c C-! | Free | | C-c . | Creating timestamps | C-c C-. | Free | | C-c ` | Built-in table editor | C-c C-` | Free | |---+---+--+| | C-c ' | Editing and debugging formulas| C-c or C-c C-' | Free | | C-c ^ | Structure editing, plain lists... | C-c C-^ | Taken | | C-c @ | Structure editing | C-c | Taken | The order is from the less problematic ones to the more problematic ones. A few comments on the last three: - is not a punctuation character, I find C-c instead of C-c ' good. - C-c C-^ is taken by org-up-element. I'm in favor of using C-c C-u (currently bound to `outline-up-heading') for `org-up-element'. Nicolas suggested C-M-u but I find it convenient to have it when editing Elisp code within Org buffers. - C-c is bound to `org-date-from-calendar', which inserts the current date (or the date from the calendar buffer) at point as an active timestamp. C-c is bound to `org-goto-calendar' and goes to the calendar, going to the date at point if any. This is just a slightly more contextual M-x calendar RET. So the whole suggestion here is: - in Org-mode, remap calendar to org-goto-calendar and unbind it from C-c - use C-c for `org-date-from-calendar' - use C-c for selecting the whole subtree, which is consistent with the use of `' as a speedy command for doing the same. You put the finger on one important note to me: that speed commands are the same as their longer counterpart. It should be good if all of them could be obtainable by adding C-c C- in front of the speed command. With that focus in mind, I find `C-c x' not a good one (for checkboxes); though, in that case, speed commands don't come into play. But I find it too different from the `C-c C-' construct used for the others? Let me know how you feel about such move in general and each rebinding in particular. We are not forced to solve them all at once. Globally, it's fine! Last remark about `C-c ' which I find not good: - `' in used for filtering categories in the agenda, - semantically, what `C-c @' does is a `C-x h' limited to a subtree; maybe there could be something inspiring similar to `C-x h'? Maybe `C-u C-x h'? Best regards, Seb -- Sebastien Vauban
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Thanks for your feedback. Sebastien Vauban sva-news-D0wtAvR13HarG/idocf...@public.gmane.org writes: - use C-c for selecting the whole subtree, which is consistent with the use of `' as a speedy command for doing the same. You put the finger on one important note to me: that speed commands are the same as their longer counterpart. It should be good if all of them could be obtainable by adding C-c C- in front of the speed command. I think it goes in the opposite direction: if a command is bound to C-c KEY or C-c C-KEY then KEY should be used as a speed command. With that focus in mind, I find `C-c x' not a good one (for checkboxes); though, in that case, speed commands don't come into play. The mnemonic here is: `x' reminds me of [x] -- let's see if something better can be done. But I find it too different from the `C-c C-' construct used for the others? I wanted to keep it close to C-c #, and use only C-c KEY. Let me know how you feel about such move in general and each rebinding in particular. We are not forced to solve them all at once. Globally, it's fine! Last remark about `C-c ' which I find not good: - `' in used for filtering categories in the agenda, Categories are (most often) attached to a subtree. When you hit the `' speed command on this subtree then display the agenda, you don't need to filter by category with `' since the narrowing already filters (by category) for you. That's actually one of the reason for which I propose this key. - semantically, what `C-c @' does is a `C-x h' limited to a subtree; maybe there could be something inspiring similar to `C-x h'? Maybe `C-u C-x h'? The way to get the same behavior than `C-c @' is `C-c C-^ M-h'. M-h is very very handy, and probably not known enough! -- Bastien
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Hi Bastien On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 11:32 AM, Bastien b...@gnu.org wrote: | C-c # | Checkboxes| C-c x| Free | I did not know C-c # (org-update-statistics-cookies) because for me it is easier to remember and therefore I always used this: Go to cookie and do C-c C-c. And C-c x does not comply with the Elisp manual: Don't define C-c letter as a key in Lisp programs. Sequences consisting of C-c and a letter (either upper or lower case) are reserved for users; they are the only sequences reserved for users, so do not block them. Changing all the Emacs major modes to respect this convention was a lot of work; abandoning this convention would make that work go to waste, and inconvenience users. Please comply with it. With these two reasons my suggestion is to just drop the binding for (org-update-statistics-cookies). Michael
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Bastien b...@gnu.org writes: The purpose is to be polite with minor modes and to not use C-c [:punct:] keybindings, as recommended in the Elisp manual. This is related to the issues reported here: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2014-01/msg00866.html http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/82010 Here is a table to summarise the proposal: | Key | Command | Proposal | Status | |---+---+--+| | C-c # | Checkboxes| C-c x| Free | | C-c ~ | Cooperation | C-c C-~ | Free | | C-c , | Priorities| C-c C-, | Free | | C-c ? | Editing and debugging formulas| C-c C-? | Free | | C-c ! | Creating timestamps | C-c C-! | Free | | C-c . | Creating timestamps | C-c C-. | Free | | C-c ` | Built-in table editor | C-c C-` | Free | |---+---+--+| | C-c ' | Editing and debugging formulas| C-c or C-c C-' | Free | | C-c ^ | Structure editing, plain lists... | C-c C-^ | Taken | | C-c @ | Structure editing | C-c | Taken | The order is from the less problematic ones to the more problematic ones. A few comments on the last three: - is not a punctuation character, I find C-c instead of C-c ' good. On a QWERTY keyboard or Dvorak keyboard, requires Shifting, so you have to switch horses midstream (first Control, then SHift). Not sure about anybody else, but those are the most problematic key sequences for me. I would much prefer C-c C-': you just keep the Control key pressed for the duration. - C-c C-^ is taken by org-up-element. I'm in favor of using C-c C-u (currently bound to `outline-up-heading') for `org-up-element'. Nicolas suggested C-M-u but I find it convenient to have it when editing Elisp code within Org buffers. - C-c is bound to `org-date-from-calendar', which inserts the current date (or the date from the calendar buffer) at point as an active timestamp. C-c is bound to `org-goto-calendar' and goes to the calendar, going to the date at point if any. This is just a slightly more contextual M-x calendar RET. So the whole suggestion here is: - in Org-mode, remap calendar to org-goto-calendar and unbind it from C-c - use C-c for `org-date-from-calendar' - use C-c for selecting the whole subtree, which is consistent with the use of `' as a speedy command for doing the same. Let me know how you feel about such move in general and each rebinding in particular. We are not forced to solve them all at once. Thanks, -- Nick
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
Nick Dokos ndo...@gmail.com writes: Bastien b...@gnu.org writes: The purpose is to be polite with minor modes and to not use C-c [:punct:] keybindings, as recommended in the Elisp manual. This is related to the issues reported here: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2014-01/msg00866.html http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/82010 Here is a table to summarise the proposal: | Key | Command | Proposal | Status | |---+---+--+| | C-c # | Checkboxes| C-c x| Free | | C-c ~ | Cooperation | C-c C-~ | Free | | C-c , | Priorities| C-c C-, | Free | | C-c ? | Editing and debugging formulas| C-c C-? | Free | | C-c ! | Creating timestamps | C-c C-! | Free | | C-c . | Creating timestamps | C-c C-. | Free | | C-c ` | Built-in table editor | C-c C-` | Free | |---+---+--+| | C-c ' | Editing and debugging formulas| C-c or C-c C-' | Free | | C-c ^ | Structure editing, plain lists... | C-c C-^ | Taken | | C-c @ | Structure editing | C-c | Taken | The order is from the less problematic ones to the more problematic ones. A few comments on the last three: - is not a punctuation character, I find C-c instead of C-c ' good. On a QWERTY keyboard or Dvorak keyboard, requires Shifting, so you have to switch horses midstream (first Control, then SHift). Not sure about anybody else, but those are the most problematic key sequences for me. I would much prefer C-c C-': you just keep the Control key pressed for the duration. I agree that it's better if we can avoid letters needing a 'secondary' key. Unfortunately, I think this wish is hard to meet when considering several layouts. For me the following keys need shift or Alt-Gr: ^, , `, !, ?, and ~. Rasmus -- If you can mix business and politics wonderful things can happen!
Re: [O] [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3
i'd like to point out that some of these bindings are problematic on qwerty in a way that is not obvious to many users. many people use shifting keys on both sides of the keyboard. they do not issue the control of control g using left hand. that is a bad idea. instead, they hold down the right control with right hand then do g with left hand. any sequence where one step is on one side and another step is on the other side is fine unless they are both shifted. at that point they become so cumbersome they are likely to be rebound by the user. fortunately, most of emacs does not use the cumbersome type of binding. hih. samuel -- The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. ANYBODY can get it. Denmark: free Karina Hansen NOW.
