Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
Vikas Rawal writes: You also stated that the main reason for your current behavior is to delay Org 8.0, to create chaos and to annoy me. Yes. I would suggest that further emails from Jambunathan be ignored. The more effort expended reasoning with him, the more time wasted by members of the Org-mode community who are valuable contributors. +1 Vikas Could someone please just ban Jambunathan from the list? These emails are not productive and are wasting everyone's time. If Jambunathan wants to discuss policy stuff with the FSF, he can do that; there's no reason to do it here on-list. However, what Jambunathan has said very explicitly is: I want to troll this list and waste everyone's time. And he said it very explicitly here: Jambunathan K writes: Someone - it may not be you yourself - from within the community would have paid the price for annoying me. I will try hard to extract a price. Please stop letting him waste our time and community energy. There's no reason to keep the troll well fed by allowing him to continue these emails on-list. Thanks, - Christopher Allan Webber.
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
You also stated that the main reason for your current behavior is to delay Org 8.0, to create chaos and to annoy me. Yes. I would suggest that further emails from Jambunathan be ignored. The more effort expended reasoning with him, the more time wasted by members of the Org-mode community who are valuable contributors. +1 Vikas
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com writes: For the sake of record, I haven't authorized Bastien to move the ox-html.el and ox-odt.el out of the ./contrib/lisp directory in to the main ./lisp/ directory. He didn't seek my permissions to move the file away from contrib/lisp in to lisp/. 1. Nicolas announced the merge of new exporters on Feb, 2nd http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/65574 As a contributor to org-e-html.el and org-e-odt.el, you perfectly knew the merge will end up in putting ox-html.el and ox-odt.el in lisp/. If you didn't want the files to go into core, you should have said it at this time. We never received a word from you suggesting that you may refuse to merge your changes into Org's core. 2. You were well aware of the merge since you participated in the discussions that followed: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/65728 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/65872 So -- Nicolas and I had absolutely no reason to believe that you would oppose to merging your changes into lisp/. You also stated that the main reason for your current behavior is to delay Org 8.0, to create chaos and to annoy me. I don't think your strategy is very well-thought, because all your moves may only annoy Emacs developers, not me. I'm fine with releasing ox-html.el and ox-odt.el in Org 8.0. -- Bastien
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
You also stated that the main reason for your current behavior is to delay Org 8.0, to create chaos and to annoy me. Yes. I'm fine with releasing ox-html.el and ox-odt.el in Org 8.0. By releasing Org-8.0 your responsibilities will only increase, not decrease. You will be obliged to purge my changes and make sure that the replacement is ready and available for merge with Emacs. Someone - it may not be you yourself - from within the community would have paid the price for annoying me. I will try hard to extract a price. ps: I dare you to re-write those changes. Show me the code Luke. Jambunathan K.
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
Jambunathan, I am not entering a discussion here, based on some wildly constructed examples. What I am doing is countering the impression you are lately trying to make, that these files were never intended for release and Emacs. You are trying to imply this by insisting that they were in contrib. This is a false impression for two reasons, as I have shown in my previous mail. The copyright quotation is not about the year, but about the fact that it says FSF, not Jambunathan. This was never changed, also not when you changed the author name from Nicolas Goaziou (because the files was apparently created by changing a copy org-e-latex.el) to your name. http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-html.el?id=fac58412f3c23a4c3cb03e050cd7809cfc8651fe Org-mode is not a company. It is an open source project, and the complete project history is open to the world. It's most important distribution channel is as git repository - so it is published and republished after each push to the main repository at orgmode.org. Introducing cuts like a tar ball release is artificial for this discussion. At each state it may contain bugs and typos, but fact that the copyright notice was never changed shows at the very least that you did not care, and probably it shows that you, at the time, were proud to contribute to the Org-mode and Emacs and perfectly aware that the copyright was transferred to the FSF. It is known that your intent has now changed, but the original intent was plain to you and others and has caused others to rely on the code, to add and invest. This is why I am helping to protect the code. Not to pry it away from you[1], but to protect users of and contributors to Org-mode. If we cannot trust that code contributed to a project like Org-mode can be used and built upon, then the letter and spirit of free software is endangered. Even if you try to paint yourself into the victim role, you are quite the opposite in this situation. - Carsten [1] What would I have to gain from that? I would have more fun rewriting it than I have writing this mail, but I do what I consider necessary. On 3.4.2013, at 07:52, Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com wrote: Carsten When this code first entered the Org-mode repository, it was not in contrib/. The code entered in EXPERIMENTAL/. Both files where marked Copyright (C) 2011-2012 FSF and Copyright (C) 2010-2012 FSF from the first moment they entered into the repository, in agreement with Jambunathan's standing assignment with the FSF at the time. http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-html.el?id=93ec2c7a5034944f5f6c77be6f37c49b4a697b72 http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-odt.el?id=c2ea76e71034a161d875647b27cfbd72264b5d64 The files moved to contrib/ only in April of 2012, in a period when the exporter structure was fleshed out and completed. This move was clearly a staging event for a later move into core, rather than a change of copyright assignment. While unassigned files are are only allowed in contrib/, the reverse is not true and never was. What does FSF record indicate? Last I checked, it indicates that Emacs contains no such files and these files are unknown to the Emacs product. FSF email records also say that I have out of my own initiative refused to assign *my* rights to them. I haven't authorized Bastien to move contrib/lisp changes to lisp/. I invite him to show a proof to that effect. What you indicate is daily routine. IMNSHO, they are good to know but not substantial to resolve the dispute. It is common knowledge that unreleased source is *known* to show wrong Copyright years prior to release. Corporations securely back up - as in put in a locker - only released tar balls. What matters is the product (product here is Emacs) and a public release of product together with source tarball. Org-8.0 is not released yet. It is a work-in-progress and not known to public at large. Org-8.0 is not in Emacs, it is merely a staging ground for Emacs and Emacs maintainers will do their own due diligence *independent* of the due diligence done by Org maintainer. Thought experiment: I steal my employer's code, slap my authorship and assign copyright to FSF. Does that mean the code is assigned to FSF? No. Bottomline: Intent to act is not the same as act itself. Jambunathan K.
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
It is known that your intent has now changed, Correct. but the original intent was plain to you and others Yes. and has caused others to rely on the code, to add and invest. Code is GPL. Nicolas Goaziou has already grown in respect by committing a fix to the ODT exporter in a manner that makes Christian Moe happy. I am happy. I will not mention how much Bastien invested in a fix for the problem and how his fix fared when it was put to test. This pattern of Bastien playing to the gallery is not merely anecdotal but has repeated more or less regularly for the last 3 years or so. The truth of the matter is Bastien has been unwilling to spend substantial time maintaing Orgmode since he took over. I am unwilling to trust my work in the hands of someone whose sole purpose is to please the crowd but runs of shy of taking hard considered decisions or actually supporting the ongoing work. To my eyes, his maintainership is ceremonial. The unwanted side-effect is that he is having an influence that is incommensurate with the responsibility he is shouldering. This is why I am helping to protect the code. Not to pry it away from you[1], but to protect users of and contributors to Org-mode. If we cannot trust that code contributed to a project like Org-mode can be used and built upon, then the letter and spirit of free software is endangered. Even if you try to paint yourself into the victim role, you are quite the opposite in this situation. Fair enough. [1] What would I have to gain from that? I would have more fun rewriting it than I have writing this mail, but I do what I consider necessary. Actions speak louder than words. That's where Nicolas Goaziou has scored very consistently. Bottomline: I will co-operate but not under current maintainer who has never acted in a way to win my trust. I am speaking of a 3 year horizon here. Jambunathan K.
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com writes: Org-mode is not a company. I am not taking about Orgmode per-se. I am talking about Orgmode in so as far as it is part of Emacs, the copy rights to which are owned and enforced by FSF. Much of my argument relate to policies of Emacs. FSF *is* an organization. If one assigns right to FSF, then one can turn to FSF for doing all the grunt work of enforcing compliance in case of license violation. If one is not assigning right to FSF, then one is left to his own means. See http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com writes: You also stated that the main reason for your current behavior is to delay Org 8.0, to create chaos and to annoy me. Yes. I would suggest that further emails from Jambunathan be ignored. The more effort expended reasoning with him, the more time wasted by members of the Org-mode community who are valuable contributors. Also, despite his bellicose threats, the *only* means he has to hurt the Org-mode community is the tool he is using now; namely trolling our mailing list. Lets take this from him. Cheers, PS. For gnus users, the following may help. ;; Info link on using kill files to ignore certain posts (info (gnus)Kill Files) To use a kill file, from the Org-mode mailing list summary buffer press M-k, and then insert the following (or something like it) into the resulting buffer, save it and close it. (gnus-kill From Jambunathan K) If Jambunathan replies to this message, please don't let me know, I'll be blissfully unaware. -- Eric Schulte http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
John Hendy writes: With respect to Org staying up to date on these developments, it probably *is* a good idea to know how Emacs/FSF responds. Should the rights be granted back to Jambunathan, Org should behave accordingly. Exceedingly unlikely, I think. There is no legal case, the FSF takes a dim view of copyright trolling against free software, and the trolling behavior surely squanders any moral claim. What remains is the creation of fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). My worst-case scenario would be that we give in to that. OK, that's more than my ten cents' worth already, so I'll take Eric Schulte's advice on this thread and leave it. Yours, Christian
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
From: Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 14:12:36 +0530 I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified the copyright desk). I'm not sure we should believe this statement. As of a few minutes ago, your assignment for Emacs still appears on file in FSF records; until it is removed, nothing's changed. If you want your termination to have any real effect, you better ask the FSF personnel to modify the records to that effect ASAP. Judging by Jambunathan's tone and attitude, I'd advise Org maintainers to be very careful, and consider also a possibility that Jambunathan is simply lying about this, and that his entire goal is just to make himself famous by harassing Org and Emacs, without taking any real action (a.k.a. trolling).
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
Eli Zaretskii e...@gnu.org writes: From: Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 14:12:36 +0530 I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified the copyright desk). I'm not sure we should believe this statement. As of a few minutes ago, your assignment for Emacs still appears on file in FSF records; until it is removed, nothing's changed. If you want your termination to have any real effect, you better ask the FSF personnel to modify the records to that effect ASAP. I have notified ass...@gnu.org. Stefan Monnier and Bastien Guerry are in the CC list of my communication. Judging by Jambunathan's tone and attitude, I'd advise Org maintainers to be very careful, and consider also a possibility that Jambunathan is simply lying about this, and that his entire goal is just to make himself famous by harassing Org and Emacs, without taking any real action (a.k.a. trolling). I don't lie. I have taken action already. Jambunathan K.
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
From: Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:21:22 +0530 Eli Zaretskii e...@gnu.org writes: From: Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 14:12:36 +0530 I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified the copyright desk). I'm not sure we should believe this statement. As of a few minutes ago, your assignment for Emacs still appears on file in FSF records; until it is removed, nothing's changed. If you want your termination to have any real effect, you better ask the FSF personnel to modify the records to that effect ASAP. I have notified ass...@gnu.org. Stefan Monnier and Bastien Guerry are in the CC list of my communication. No one else knows, until the records are updated. (And it's not difficult to forge email headers if one wants to. I'm not saying you did that, I'm just saying that one mail is not proof of anything.) Judging by Jambunathan's tone and attitude, I'd advise Org maintainers to be very careful, and consider also a possibility that Jambunathan is simply lying about this, and that his entire goal is just to make himself famous by harassing Org and Emacs, without taking any real action (a.k.a. trolling). I don't lie. Your writings tell a different story, unfortunately.
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
Jambunathan, If you're leaving the Org-mode community, I'd prefer to remember you with gratitude for leaving us the excellent ODT exporter. Please stop diminishing your legacy with this quasi-legal wrangling. As a user, I have greatly appreciated both your code contributions and your patient help on the mailing list in the past. I think your recent way of registering your displeasure with the Org maintainer is beneath you. Also unhelpful, pointless, damaging to the community, and, in the worst-case scenario, a damn waste of good work. Yours, Christian Jambunathan K writes: I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified the copyright desk). For the sake of record, I haven't authorized Bastien to move the ox-html.el and ox-odt.el out of the ./contrib/lisp directory in to the main ./lisp/ directory. He didn't seek my permissions to move the file away from contrib/lisp in to lisp/. I cannot agree with Orgmode project's contention that I have given consent for above work to be included in Emacs proper. If FSF ever consults me on rights to my contributions to the above files, my position will ambiguously be Changes made by me to files ox-html.el, ox-odt.el and ox-freemind.el are my own and I assert my rights over the changes. Specifically, I will not acknowledge FSF as having the rights to the said changes. Bastien has lost my trust very long back. More so when he resorted to erasing attribution to my work. My changes to ox-html.el and ox-odt.el is not worth the keyboard it is typed on. My changes are useful. Handing over of rights, liberal license grant backs from FSF and enforcement of copyright etc. are too big a thing to even think about for my humble contributions. The size of my contributions are simply not worth so much bureaucratic trouble. Meanwhile, interesting observers can observe how FSF responds. Either they can act consistent with project policy (and reject my work) or appropriate my work (through changing the rules of the game and interpreting the terms of contract) to suit their agenda. Advice for potential contributors: -- Think before signing a Future Assignment. Why write a blank cheque and have RMS run behind you with this is a diff to Emacs and all your code is mine. Assign work on a case-by-case basis. Insist that you cannot apriori sign off rights to future works (Future work and circumstances cannot be predicted. Be circumspect). If more people refuse to assign future rights, FSF will be forced to review their stance. Ask for information on how you can withhold assignments for some selected work. Ask them for cancellation form or a withholding form. Ask them at what point in time your work is *actually part* of Emacs. Carefully consider the arguments that FSF advances and also the arguments advanced by detractors. Don't be swayed by propaganda. If you are not sure, just don't sign the copyright and wait till you have ascertained the nature of your work in it's near final form. Jambunathan K.
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Christian Moe m...@christianmoe.com wrote: Jambunathan, If you're leaving the Org-mode community, I'd prefer to remember you with gratitude for leaving us the excellent ODT exporter. Please stop diminishing your legacy with this quasi-legal wrangling. As a user, I have greatly appreciated both your code contributions and your patient help on the mailing list in the past. I think your recent way of registering your displeasure with the Org maintainer is beneath you. Also unhelpful, pointless, damaging to the community, and, in the worst-case scenario, a damn waste of good work. Yours, Christian Jambunathan K writes: I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified the copyright desk). With respect to Org staying up to date on these developments, it probably *is* a good idea to know how Emacs/FSF responds. Should the rights be granted back to Jambunathan, Org should behave accordingly. As it currently reads however, it made me think of something along the lines of, I have terminated my marriage to my wife (or at least left a message with her secretary to let her know). The two are hardly the same. Until this is formalized, papers signed and rights granted (regardless of 20/20 hindsight and warnings to other potential signers) still stand as binding. John
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
Hi, For the record created by this mailing list thread, I would like to correct two mistakes: On 2.4.2013, at 10:42, Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com wrote: I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified the copyright desk). For the sake of record, I haven't authorized Bastien to move the ox-html.el and ox-odt.el out of the ./contrib/lisp directory in to the main ./lisp/ directory. He didn't seek my permissions to move the file away from contrib/lisp in to lisp/. I cannot agree with Orgmode project's contention that I have given consent for above work to be included in Emacs proper. When this code first entered the Org-mode repository, it was not in contrib/. The code entered in EXPERIMENTAL/. Both files where marked Copyright (C) 2011-2012 FSF and Copyright (C) 2010-2012 FSF from the first moment they entered into the repository, in agreement with Jambunathan's standing assignment with the FSF at the time. http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-html.el?id=93ec2c7a5034944f5f6c77be6f37c49b4a697b72 http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-odt.el?id=c2ea76e71034a161d875647b27cfbd72264b5d64 The files moved to contrib/ only in April of 2012, in a period when the exporter structure was fleshed out and completed. This move was clearly a staging event for a later move into core, rather than a change of copyright assignment. While unassigned files are are only allowed in contrib/, the reverse is not true and never was. If FSF ever consults me on rights to my contributions to the above files, my position will ambiguously be Changes made by me to files ox-html.el, ox-odt.el and ox-freemind.el are my own and I assert my rights over the changes. Specifically, I will not acknowledge FSF as having the rights to the said changes. Bastien has lost my trust very long back. More so when he resorted to erasing attribution to my work. As far as I can see, the attribution is still in the manual and in all relevant files. What was removed seems to be a special acknowledgement of outstanding support for the maintainer. - Carsten
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
Am 03.04.2013 00:25, schrieb John Hendy: On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Christian Moe m...@christianmoe.com wrote: Jambunathan, If you're leaving the Org-mode community, I'd prefer to remember you with gratitude for leaving us the excellent ODT exporter. Please stop diminishing your legacy with this quasi-legal wrangling. As a user, I have greatly appreciated both your code contributions and your patient help on the mailing list in the past. I think your recent way of registering your displeasure with the Org maintainer is beneath you. Also unhelpful, pointless, damaging to the community, and, in the worst-case scenario, a damn waste of good work. Yours, Christian Jambunathan K writes: I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified the copyright desk). With respect to Org staying up to date on these developments, it probably *is* a good idea to know how Emacs/FSF responds. Should the rights be granted back to Jambunathan, Org should behave accordingly. Hi John, as for the GPLed code, no one may revert it's GPLed status once published. That's great with GPL, made it a success story. Can't see anything to grant back so far from Org's side. Best, Andreas As it currently reads however, it made me think of something along the lines of, I have terminated my marriage to my wife (or at least left a message with her secretary to let her know). The two are hardly the same. Until this is formalized, papers signed and rights granted (regardless of 20/20 hindsight and warnings to other potential signers) still stand as binding. John
Re: [O] I have terminated my assignment
Carsten When this code first entered the Org-mode repository, it was not in contrib/. The code entered in EXPERIMENTAL/. Both files where marked Copyright (C) 2011-2012 FSF and Copyright (C) 2010-2012 FSF from the first moment they entered into the repository, in agreement with Jambunathan's standing assignment with the FSF at the time. http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-html.el?id=93ec2c7a5034944f5f6c77be6f37c49b4a697b72 http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-odt.el?id=c2ea76e71034a161d875647b27cfbd72264b5d64 The files moved to contrib/ only in April of 2012, in a period when the exporter structure was fleshed out and completed. This move was clearly a staging event for a later move into core, rather than a change of copyright assignment. While unassigned files are are only allowed in contrib/, the reverse is not true and never was. What does FSF record indicate? Last I checked, it indicates that Emacs contains no such files and these files are unknown to the Emacs product. FSF email records also say that I have out of my own initiative refused to assign *my* rights to them. I haven't authorized Bastien to move contrib/lisp changes to lisp/. I invite him to show a proof to that effect. What you indicate is daily routine. IMNSHO, they are good to know but not substantial to resolve the dispute. It is common knowledge that unreleased source is *known* to show wrong Copyright years prior to release. Corporations securely back up - as in put in a locker - only released tar balls. What matters is the product (product here is Emacs) and a public release of product together with source tarball. Org-8.0 is not released yet. It is a work-in-progress and not known to public at large. Org-8.0 is not in Emacs, it is merely a staging ground for Emacs and Emacs maintainers will do their own due diligence *independent* of the due diligence done by Org maintainer. Thought experiment: I steal my employer's code, slap my authorship and assign copyright to FSF. Does that mean the code is assigned to FSF? No. Bottomline: Intent to act is not the same as act itself. Jambunathan K.
