Re: [O] Index of cases
Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com writes: ... I am now senior enough to insist that the editor edit my files directly. That single sentence really answers the question pretty effectively! The whole explanation does make perfect sense, though. I admit that the entire structure of the work-flow is not something I really understand - it seems to have developed over time in response to changing situations, and therefore has elements that one might not choose if one were starting from scratch. But (just throwing an additional idea out there) - the possibility of having a considerable apparatus for yourself in Org-mode, and your final step before sending to the editor being export to plain text. (so that your editor has bare plain text with no markup of any kind.) -- David
Re: [O] Index of cases
On 09/09/13 16:58, David Rogers wrote: Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com writes: ... I am now senior enough to insist that the editor edit my files directly. That single sentence really answers the question pretty effectively! The whole explanation does make perfect sense, though. I admit that the entire structure of the work-flow is not something I really understand - it seems to have developed over time in response to changing situations, and therefore has elements that one might not choose if one were starting from scratch. Sigh! Isn't that always the case? :-(. But (just throwing an additional idea out there) - the possibility of having a considerable apparatus for yourself in Org-mode, and your final step before sending to the editor being export to plain text. (so that your editor has bare plain text with no markup of any kind.) My real problem is that I don't know how to generate the multiple indexes that I need if I use org mode. Everything else is easy. Any potential solution that I see involves adding lots more markup, but if I do that I might as well stick with LaTeX. At least a lot of simple editors (the software) are LaTeX aware, so my editor (the human being) should be able to handle it. Thanks again for your thoughts. Cheers, Alan -- Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 sip:typh...@iptel.org
Re: [O] Index of cases
Hi Alan, On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 05:14:17PM +1000, Alan L Tyree wrote: My real problem is that I don't know how to generate the multiple indexes that I need if I use org mode. Everything else is easy. Any potential solution that I see involves adding lots more markup, but if I do that I might as well stick with LaTeX. This is indeed a subtle problem. I am having a hard time thinking of an Org way of doing this without special markup. It would have to be auto-generated in someway. So I have a somewhat non-technical suggestion. How about you give the LaTeX macros you use human readable aliases. The editors then might find it easier to edit LaTeX source directly. Hope this helps, -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free.
Re: [O] Index of cases
Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com writes: My real problem is that I don't know how to generate the multiple indexes that I need if I use org mode. Everything else is easy. Any potential solution that I see involves adding lots more markup, but if I do that I might as well stick with LaTeX. I'm not sure that needs to be the case. I don't use org-mode for LaTeX documents, but a bit of boiler-plate to generate the indexes shouldn't be too tricky. A good starting point is the manual for biblatex oscola package - which shows you to get your case, statute etc. tables with relatively little effort. http://mirror.ox.ac.uk/sites/ctan.org/macros/latex/contrib/biblatex-contrib/oscola/oscola.pdf
Re: [O] Index of cases
Suvayu Ali writes: Hi Alan, On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 05:14:17PM +1000, Alan L Tyree wrote: My real problem is that I don't know how to generate the multiple indexes that I need if I use org mode. Everything else is easy. Any potential solution that I see involves adding lots more markup, but if I do that I might as well stick with LaTeX. This is indeed a subtle problem. I am having a hard time thinking of an Org way of doing this without special markup. It would have to be auto-generated in someway. So I have a somewhat non-technical suggestion. How about you give the LaTeX macros you use human readable aliases. The editors then might find it easier to edit LaTeX source directly. Not a bad idea - that coupled with a LaTeX aware editor should help the human editor get past the unfamiliarity. Thanks! Hope this helps, -- Alan L Tyree http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 sip:172...@iptel.org
Re: [O] Index of cases
Alan L Tyree writes: My real problem is that I don't know how to generate the multiple indexes that I need if I use org mode. You'd likely have to use macros (one for each index) and have a filters or derived backends sort things out. Getting to something as elaborate as the various index packages would take some time, though. Everything else is easy. Any potential solution that I see involves adding lots more markup, but if I do that I might as well stick with LaTeX. If you've organized the LaTeX maybe by using your own style file, then you could still use LaTeX as the backend and keep the actual editing in Org. At least a lot of simple editors (the software) are LaTeX aware, so my editor (the human being) should be able to handle it. I guess here's your point to stick with LaTeX: there's a good number of editors that support LaTeX, but only one that suppports all of Org, so this might be a hard sell in some places (especially those that want book manuscripts in Word, shudder). Regards, Achim. -- +[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]+ DIY Stuff: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/DIY.html
Re: [O] Index of cases
Paul Rudin writes: Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com writes: My real problem is that I don't know how to generate the multiple indexes that I need if I use org mode. Everything else is easy. Any potential solution that I see involves adding lots more markup, but if I do that I might as well stick with LaTeX. I'm not sure that needs to be the case. I don't use org-mode for LaTeX documents, but a bit of boiler-plate to generate the indexes shouldn't be too tricky. A good starting point is the manual for biblatex oscola package - which shows you to get your case, statute etc. tables with relatively little effort. http://mirror.ox.ac.uk/sites/ctan.org/macros/latex/contrib/biblatex-contrib/oscola/oscola.pdf Oscola is good and approaches the problem by maintaining a bibtex database of cases. I maintain a plain text file of my cases and retrieve them with a custom built function. I'm not sure that the resulting markup in the manuscript is much more readable with Oscola, but I need to look into it further. Thanks for the tip. -- Alan L Tyree http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 sip:172...@iptel.org
Re: [O] Index of cases
On Sep 9, 2013 3:14 AM, Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com wrote: snip At least a lot of simple editors (the software) are LaTeX aware, so my editor (the human being) should be able to handle it. I don't know it well, but Lyx http://wiki.lyx.org/FAQ/LyX purports to almost be LaTeX and almost be WYSIWYG, so that might be an editor to try for those who will find markup scary. HTH, Brian vdB
Re: [O] Index of cases
Lyx is brilliant - I used it to typeset a cookbook that my wife wrote and then I wrote a small text Self-publishing with LyX. Anyone can learn to use it in a short time. It was my first thought, but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an easy way to import LaTeX where the LaTeX file has multiple indexes. The LyX folks are working on that. Cheers, Alan On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Brian van den Broek brian.van.den.br...@gmail.com wrote: On Sep 9, 2013 3:14 AM, Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com wrote: snip At least a lot of simple editors (the software) are LaTeX aware, so my editor (the human being) should be able to handle it. I don't know it well, but Lyx http://wiki.lyx.org/FAQ/LyX purports to almost be LaTeX and almost be WYSIWYG, so that might be an editor to try for those who will find markup scary. HTH, Brian vdB -- Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206sip:typh...@iptel.org
Re: [O] Index of cases
On 08/09/13 14:37, Jambunathan K wrote: CC me in the reply. Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com writes: G'day, I am the author of a legal text of about 700 pages. I currently have the book in LaTeX using the memoir class. A couple of macros define special indexes for a Table of Cases and a Table of Statutes. Please share the existing macros. Others may find it useful or get inspiration from it. G'day Jambu, Here are the LaTeX macros that I use. \idx is just the normal index \sdx generates a Table of Statutes \cdx is the ordinary macro for generating a Table of Cases \cdxnop indexes the case (Puts it in the Table of Cases) but does not print it in the manuscript; this is for certain cases like Re Jones that should appear in the Table of Cases as Jones, Re \cdx and \cdxnop have two arguments since the legal tradition calls for the name but not the citation to be italicised. % section numbers as references \newcommand{\idx}[1]{\specialindex{ablidx}{subsection}{#1}}%%Section numbers \newcommand{\cdx}[2]{\specialindex{ablcdx}{subsection}{#1 #2}\emph{#1} #2} \newcommand{\cdxnop}[2]{\specialindex{ablcdx}{subsection}{#1 #2}} \newcommand{\sdx}[1]{\specialindex{ablsdx}{subsection}{#1}} \makeindex[ablsdx] \makeindex[ablcdx] \makeindex[ablidx] Here is the way that the case indexing macro appears in text: #+BEGIN_EXAMPLE Provided the documents are in order, the buyer must pay. This is so even if it is known that the goods have been lost at sea. For example, in \cdx{Manbre Saccharine Co Ltd v Corn Products Co Ltd}{[1919] 1 KB 198} the defendants sold American pearl starch to the plaintiffs on CIF London terms. #+END_EXAMPLE The Memoir class requires some special set up for printing the alternate indexes: \cleartorecto \renewcommand{\indexname}{Table of cases} \onecolindextrue \printindex[ablcdx] % table of cases I would like to move the whole thing to Org to make it easier for my editors who can be easily alarmed by the LaTeX markup. The LaTeX is overkill since I submit the manuscript to the publisher in a Word file. If you are interested in ODT export and find something missing, I would be happy to implement. I use ODT export quite a bit, but I haven't used it with book length writing that requires indexes. Obviously would be nice, but I can submit the chapters separate from the indexes so it may not be necessary. If I get anywhere with this, I'll definitely rely on your kind offer. The exporter currently doesn't print table of figures etc. It is something that I hope to flesh out. Btw, the exporter already categorises Math formula (meaning png images or MathML snippets converted from Latex math snipppets) in to it's own sequence counter. So I believe we can conjure up a way to enumerate the cases separately. Is there a standard way to get, say, the table of cases? A typical case looks like this: Howell v Coupland (1874) LR 9 QB 462; (1876) 1 QBD 258 The Table of Cases needs to indicate where in the text the case is mentioned; reference to section numbers is OK. So, for example, in the Table of Cases, the above case appears as: Howell v Coupland (1874) LR 9 QB 462; (1876) 1 QBD 258 [15.16] [15.25] Assuming that the cases are introduced in a paragraph you can attach a label and caption to a paragraph and link to the NAME with the usual reference link. (This is possible with the new exporter.) #+CAPTION: A Non-sensical case #+NAME: case:dismissed This paragraph describes HowellvCoupland. Another alternative would be to introduce the title of the case as a paragraph of its own and styled separately and then link to the paragraph. #+ATTR_ODT: :style Cases A Non-sensical case This paragraph describes HowellvCoupland. The difference between the two is this: In the second case, the name of the case goes right in to document content rather than as a paragraph caption. In ODT, it is possible to collect paragraphs that have a given style in to an index of it's own. If I understand you correctly, both approaches would require quite a bit of markup to go back into the main part of the manuscript. This is what I'm trying to avoid since the publisher and editors have always required Word. I have (I think) got them to agree to accept plain text, but I would like to make it just as plain as possible. Paragraphs in the text may refer to many cases, so I don't think your suggestions will meet that goal. Again, that is under the assumption that I understood you correctly. Thanks for the input! Cheers, Alan I am writing from memory and you know better than to repose trust on someone you have never met. -- Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 sip:typh...@iptel.org
Re: [O] Index of cases
CC me in the reply. Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com writes: G'day, I am the author of a legal text of about 700 pages. I currently have the book in LaTeX using the memoir class. A couple of macros define special indexes for a Table of Cases and a Table of Statutes. Please share the existing macros. Others may find it useful or get inspiration from it. I would like to move the whole thing to Org to make it easier for my editors who can be easily alarmed by the LaTeX markup. The LaTeX is overkill since I submit the manuscript to the publisher in a Word file. If you are interested in ODT export and find something missing, I would be happy to implement. The exporter currently doesn't print table of figures etc. It is something that I hope to flesh out. Btw, the exporter already categorises Math formula (meaning png images or MathML snippets converted from Latex math snipppets) in to it's own sequence counter. So I believe we can conjure up a way to enumerate the cases separately. Is there a standard way to get, say, the table of cases? A typical case looks like this: Howell v Coupland (1874) LR 9 QB 462; (1876) 1 QBD 258 The Table of Cases needs to indicate where in the text the case is mentioned; reference to section numbers is OK. So, for example, in the Table of Cases, the above case appears as: Howell v Coupland (1874) LR 9 QB 462; (1876) 1 QBD 258 [15.16] [15.25] Assuming that the cases are introduced in a paragraph you can attach a label and caption to a paragraph and link to the NAME with the usual reference link. (This is possible with the new exporter.) #+CAPTION: A Non-sensical case #+NAME: case:dismissed This paragraph describes HowellvCoupland. Another alternative would be to introduce the title of the case as a paragraph of its own and styled separately and then link to the paragraph. #+ATTR_ODT: :style Cases A Non-sensical case This paragraph describes HowellvCoupland. The difference between the two is this: In the second case, the name of the case goes right in to document content rather than as a paragraph caption. In ODT, it is possible to collect paragraphs that have a given style in to an index of it's own. I am writing from memory and you know better than to repose trust on someone you have never met.
Re: [O] Index of cases
Here are the LaTeX macros that I use. Seeing a concrete example helps. Helps avoid speculation. I don't understand Latex, so I will speculate ... #+BEGIN_EXAMPLE Provided the documents are in order, the buyer must pay. This is so even if it is known that the goods have been lost at sea. For example, in \cdx{Manbre Saccharine Co Ltd v Corn Products Co Ltd}{[1919] 1 KB 198} the defendants sold American pearl starch to the plaintiffs on CIF London terms. #+END_EXAMPLE Seems like a heretical form of Inline footnotes to me. I would suggest that you fake a Bibliography entry in a *.bib file and use JabRef to create your References or Endnotes. but I haven't used it with book length writing that requires indexes. You need to just command the machine to do the export :-) Obviously would be nice, but I can submit the chapters separate from the indexes so it may not be necessary. As a side-note, I would like to at some point in time add support for *.odm. both approaches would require quite a bit of markup to go back into the main part of the manuscript. A markup is markup. The markup I suggest is paragraph-oriented - which Org is good at. The markup that you have resorted to is span/inline-style at which Org sucks. This is what I'm trying to avoid since the publisher and editors have always required Word. Why get caught in specifics of Markup when all you want is a Word or a OpenDocument format or even a plain text format. In the grand scheme of things, insisting plain text or Org or Word doesn't really matter. If you want and do get Word, then markup - Org or otherwise - doesn't matter. I have (I think) got them to agree to accept plain text, but I would like to make it just as plain as possible. Oh, Ok. Looks like there is exchange of ideas between the author and publisher... Paragraphs in the text may refer to many cases, so I don't think your suggestions will meet that goal. Seems like Citation or Footnote to me.
Re: [O] Index of cases
Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com writes: I have (I think) got them to agree to accept plain text, but I would like to make it just as plain as possible. Oh, Ok. Looks like there is exchange of ideas between the author and publisher... In lighter vein and tongue-in-cheek sort of way... It seems like publishers are making you go in circles. You were after epub. Now you are after Word. It is only a matter of time, before a publisher insists on an LaTex, at which point you would have done the full-circle and savour a moment of epiphany. Booktype folks - http://www.sourcefabric.org/en/booktype/ - surfaced in fsf.org a few months ago. http://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Booktype
Re: [O] Index of cases -- Revisited
Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com writes: I am concerned with the write - send to editor - rewrite - send to editor cycle. When the editor and I are in agreement with everything, convert to Word and send to publisher. Wikis.. Talk or comment pages separate from document content. Changes shouldn't be inline but paragraph-oriented (helps with gitting and diffing). It may happen outside the content flow, say at the tail of the document (or think an extra sheet) You can say that the commenter indent his comments with an say tabs, so that you can do `keep-lines' and `flush-lines' or `set-selective-display' magic. Plain org mode seems to me to be a good choice for the manuscript. Now trying to figure out how to add the other requirements without cluttering the manuscript. Number your paragraphs in the plain text file so that they can be easily xref-ed. It could be a little difficult getting used to numbers but it could be useful. Being an emacs user, you can always remove the numbers or re-number the numbers at later in point in time. I am too far OT.
Re: [O] Index of cases
Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com writes: Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com writes: I have (I think) got them to agree to accept plain text, but I would like to make it just as plain as possible. Oh, Ok. Looks like there is exchange of ideas between the author and publisher... In lighter vein and tongue-in-cheek sort of way... It seems like publishers are making you go in circles. You were after epub. Now you are after Word. It is only a matter of time, before a publisher insists on an LaTex, at which point you would have done the full-circle and savour a moment of epiphany. I'm wondering something a bit different: It sounds as if the publisher actually demands Word documents, and had never asked for anything but that. I'm swallowing hard before I say this... Why not just use Word? -- David R
Re: [O] Index of cases
On 09/09/13 08:17, David Rogers wrote: Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com writes: Jambunathan K kjambunat...@gmail.com writes: I have (I think) got them to agree to accept plain text, but I would like to make it just as plain as possible. Oh, Ok. Looks like there is exchange of ideas between the author and publisher... In lighter vein and tongue-in-cheek sort of way... It seems like publishers are making you go in circles. You were after epub. Now you are after Word. It is only a matter of time, before a publisher insists on an LaTex, at which point you would have done the full-circle and savour a moment of epiphany. I'm wondering something a bit different: It sounds as if the publisher actually demands Word documents, and had never asked for anything but that. I'm swallowing hard before I say this... Why not just use Word? Well, the book is already in LaTeX. I chose that back at the 4th edition and am now in the process of preparing the 8th. Earlier editions were in Word, and the new Word can't even read the early manuscripts. I regularly lost work using Word. The usual complaints. I had special needs at the time: the publisher uses numbered paragraphs of the chapter-number variety, eg, [12-125], and index entries should point to the relevant paragraph. Rearranging paragraphs or inserting a new one made a mess of *everything* when using Word. My nephew, a mathematician, suggested that I have a look at LaTeX and helped me get started. I'm very, very happy with using LaTeX for writing. The usual reasons: enforced structure, automatic adjustments when rearranging material, embedded index entries, automatic generation of tables, the ability to use version control, etc. Maintaining a 700+ page book with a zillion cross references, index entries, and multiple indexes became a breeze. I could concentrate on writing. The only problem has been interaction with editors, and I am now senior enough to insist that the editor edit my files directly. I'll get him/her to use TexStudio or something similar to edit my files directly. This will deal with the last problem: that of introduced errors through transcribing editor's corrections. I would abandon the book rather than go back to Word :-). End of rant. Cheers, Alan -- Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 sip:typh...@iptel.org
Re: [O] Index of cases
Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com writes: G'day, I am the author of a legal text of about 700 pages. I currently have the book in LaTeX using the memoir class. A couple of macros define special indexes for a Table of Cases and a Table of Statutes. I would like to move the whole thing to Org to make it easier for my editors who can be easily alarmed by the LaTeX markup. The LaTeX is overkill since I submit the manuscript to the publisher in a Word file. Is there a standard way to get, say, the table of cases? A typical case looks like this: Howell v Coupland (1874) LR 9 QB 462; (1876) 1 QBD 258 The Table of Cases needs to indicate where in the text the case is mentioned; reference to section numbers is OK. So, for example, in the Table of Cases, the above case appears as: Howell v Coupland (1874) LR 9 QB 462; (1876) 1 QBD 258 [15.16] [15.25] Presuming there is not a standard, I have considered the following procedure: - maintain a list of cases as I write; I already do this to ensure consistent citation of cases; - use links from the list of cases back into the manuscript to index the places where each case is mentioned in the text. Does this seem like a reasonable approach, or is there some obviously better way? I am an extreme novice at elisp but can handle some simple jobs. In one sense it would be nicer and more writer-friendly if the links went the other direction; that is, when you refer to a case within the manuscript, you would always tag it in a way that allows it to be automatically labelled with the section in which it occurs, and automatically placed into the index of cases for you. That's a work-saving ideal that I don't actually know how to achieve. (Further idealistic ramblings: if for example you were to add a new section between current sections 6 and 7, it would be nice for the labels in sections 7 through the end to update themselves wholesale without your needing to change each label individually.) -- David R
Re: [O] Index of cases
On 08/09/13 12:05, David Rogers wrote: Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com writes: G'day, I am the author of a legal text of about 700 pages. I currently have the book in LaTeX using the memoir class. A couple of macros define special indexes for a Table of Cases and a Table of Statutes. I would like to move the whole thing to Org to make it easier for my editors who can be easily alarmed by the LaTeX markup. The LaTeX is overkill since I submit the manuscript to the publisher in a Word file. Is there a standard way to get, say, the table of cases? A typical case looks like this: Howell v Coupland (1874) LR 9 QB 462; (1876) 1 QBD 258 The Table of Cases needs to indicate where in the text the case is mentioned; reference to section numbers is OK. So, for example, in the Table of Cases, the above case appears as: Howell v Coupland (1874) LR 9 QB 462; (1876) 1 QBD 258 [15.16] [15.25] Presuming there is not a standard, I have considered the following procedure: - maintain a list of cases as I write; I already do this to ensure consistent citation of cases; - use links from the list of cases back into the manuscript to index the places where each case is mentioned in the text. Does this seem like a reasonable approach, or is there some obviously better way? I am an extreme novice at elisp but can handle some simple jobs. In one sense it would be nicer and more writer-friendly if the links went the other direction; that is, when you refer to a case within the manuscript, you would always tag it in a way that allows it to be automatically labelled with the section in which it occurs, and automatically placed into the index of cases for you. That's a work-saving ideal that I don't actually know how to achieve. (Further idealistic ramblings: if for example you were to add a new section between current sections 6 and 7, it would be nice for the labels in sections 7 through the end to update themselves wholesale without your needing to change each label individually.) I was thinking of linking back to the closest headline in the Manuscript. If it was a plain line, that is, one with no description, then it would be replaced in the Table of Cases with the number of the headline. Or so I understand from the Manual at section 4.2. But, if the TOC is a plain text file, then I'm not sure. If it is an org file, then following a link looks for matching headlines. Not sure what I am doing! Thanks for the input. Cheers, Alan -- Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 sip:typh...@iptel.org