Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

[Cortland Richmond]

All so -- but I  might also mention switching transients and unsuppressed high 
frequencies; I daresay semiconductor-switched phases could be a problem.

Cortland

-Original Message-
>From: "Wiseman, Joshua" 
>Sent: Jun 29, 2020 8:17 AM
>To: Cortland Richmond , "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" 
>
>Subject: RE: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse
>
>I dealt with three phase a little bit at a previous employer. A couple items 
>that become important is whether it's a balanced load on all three lines and 
>if you're using a neutral conductor or not. We had options for with and 
>without neutral.
>
>Typically, we power the controls and single phase motors off of L1 and N or L1 
>and L2 depending if we have a neutral. This often-caused higher currents on L1 
>and if there was a neutral you could see higher leakage currents on it.
>
>Often our loads on L2 and L3 were three phase motors so filtering was not 
>always needed, so we would use a filter on L1-N or L1-L2 for the controls. In 
>rare cases where electronics/controls were used on other lines there would be 
>a filter on those as well.
>
>For products with resistive heating elements we did our best to balance the 
>load on each line.
>
>This never seemed to be a problem for us.
>
>Josh
>
>Joshua Wiseman 
>Systems Engineering
>Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
>Ortho Clinical Diagnostics
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Cortland Richmond  
>Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 1:50 PM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse
>
>EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action
>
>
>
>It's three phase -- and you'll need a three-phase filter sharing one return 
>winding rather than three single phase filters.
>
>IMHO.
>
>
>Cortland Richmond
>
>
>-Original Message-
>>From: Amund Westin 
>>Sent: Jun 28, 2020 4:58 AM
>>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>Subject: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse
>>
>>A 3-phase product has three internal AC driven devices.
>>The product fails on Conducted emission. When connecting AC filters to 
>>each internal AC driven devices, the emission gets even worse.
>>
>>Any clue about this phenomena? Is it some kind of impedance mismatch 
>>which derate the filters performance?
>>
>>BR
>>Amund
>>
 

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Re: [PSES] SV: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

[Brent DeWitt]

You bet!  I've done it many times.  It's not perfect, but does give you 
a rough estimate.  The only requirement is being able to butcher the 
power cord so you can get tat the individual conductors.  Putting both 
through the clamp gives you the CM. Then take either L or N and twist it 
180 degrees.  Put both in the clamp and you get the DM component.  
Again, not perfect, but a good and simple way to start understanding 
what you need for a filter.


Best regards,
Brent G DeWitt
Milford, MA


On 7/2/2020 1:57 AM, Amund Westin wrote:


I will try to get access to the product next week and do my own 
measurements for conducted emission (generic light industry limit).


The lab does only offer me a spectrum analyzer and a current clamp for 
measuring / troubleshooting. Not a LISN.


From the book «EMI troubleshooting techniques», Michel Mardiguian, 
there is a way to measure CM and DM noise with a current clamp.


I’m planning to follow that procedure and do some initial 
measurements, and then repeat the measurements after modifications.


Assume that improvements and lower levels under these measurements, 
will also be reflected when later on doing this with a LISN.


Anyone who have tried such troubleshooting technique?

Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Mvh

*Amund Westin*

**

/Cell: (+47) 920 17 031/

/E-mail: //am...@westin-emission.no/ //

/**/

*Fra:*Grasso, Charles [Outlook]
*Sendt:* 29. juni 2020 16:40
*Til:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Emne:* Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

Hi – This IS an interesting problem!

My question: Is the 3 –phase configures as a delta or a wye configuration?

Also – What is the AC device (power supply/motors etc..)

[Working From Home]

Charles Grasso

Crackpot Theorist

Dish Technologies

(c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com 

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com 

*From:*Patrick mailto:conwa...@gmail.com>>
*Sent:* Sunday, June 28, 2020 9:50 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org 



Hi Amund

This sounds like a very interesting problem.  Likely many people will 
have advice.  Maybe get lucky and someone will have had this exact 
same problem.


I'd like to help if I can.  Do you have more information on the 
failure?  What test standard and test method did you use?  How much 
over the limit?  What filters were used and how were they connected?


It could be an installation of good filters, but not wired for the 
emission type.  Also could be wrong filter type for problem?


Very interesting.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 2:58 AM Amund Westin > wrote:


A 3-phase product has three internal AC driven devices.
The product fails on Conducted emission. When connecting AC
filters to
each internal AC driven devices, the emission gets even worse.

Any clue about this phenomena? Is it some kind of impedance mismatch
which derate the filters performance?

BR
Amund

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

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Jim Bacher:  mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html


Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html 

Re: [PSES] SV: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

[Edward Price]

Amund:

Why not minimize the uncontrolled variables by renting an LISN from a lab 
equipment supply house?

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2020 10:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] SV: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

I will try to get access to the product next week and do my own measurements 
for conducted emission (generic light industry limit).

The lab does only offer me a spectrum analyzer and a current clamp for 
measuring / troubleshooting. Not a LISN.
From the book «EMI troubleshooting techniques», Michel Mardiguian, there is a 
way to measure CM and DM noise with a current clamp.
I’m planning to follow that procedure and do some initial measurements, and 
then repeat the measurements after modifications.
Assume that improvements and lower levels under these measurements, will also 
be reflected when later on doing this with a LISN.

Anyone who have tried such troubleshooting technique?


Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Mvh
Amund Westin
**
Cell: (+47) 920 17 031
E-mail: am...@westin-emission.no
**



Fra: Grasso, Charles [Outlook]
Sendt: 29. juni 2020 16:40
Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Emne: Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

Hi – This IS an interesting problem!

My question: Is the 3 –phase configures as a delta or a wye configuration?
Also – What is the AC device (power supply/motors etc..)


[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Crackpot Theorist
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com


From: Patrick mailto:conwa...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 9:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
Hi Amund

This sounds like a very interesting problem.  Likely many people will have 
advice.  Maybe get lucky and someone will have had this exact same problem.

I'd like to help if I can.  Do you have more information on the failure?  What 
test standard and test method did you use?  How much over the limit?  What 
filters were used and how were they connected?

It could be an installation of good filters, but not wired for the emission 
type.  Also could be wrong filter type for problem?

Very interesting.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 2:58 AM Amund Westin 
mailto:am...@westin-emission.no>> wrote:
A 3-phase product has three internal AC driven devices.
The product fails on Conducted emission. When connecting AC filters to
each internal AC driven devices, the emission gets even worse.

Any clue about this phenomena? Is it some kind of impedance mismatch
which derate the filters performance?

BR
Amund

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald