Re: [PSES] Trade Description Act 1968 Consumer Protection Act 1987
Scott If you check the Explanatory Note that you will find at the back of each Regulation, you will generally be able to see any references to relevant EU legislation. John Allen W.London, UK -Original Message- From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: 11 May 2015 00:07 To: John Allen Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Trade Description Act 1968 Consumer Protection Act 1987 John, Yes, those should not be UK only and for all consumers in EU. Hope to find out the corresponding EU directives/regulations. Thanks for your guidance. Scott On 10 May, 2015, at 2:48 pm, John Allen john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Scott The TDA is mainly UK, but I expect most of the other EU countries to have parallel requirements. However, whilst the CPA is basically UK-specific, it now incorporates a lot of EU-based requirements, especially w.r.t. distance selling and warrantee-type requirements because of cross-border internet sales and so on, as well as those related to generally beefing up consumer protection. John Allen W.London, UK -Original Message- From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: 10 May 2015 06:41 To: John Allen Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Trade Description Act 1968 Consumer Protection Act 1987 Hi John, Thanks for your direction. I found what you described. Thanks! Are they national requirements only not EU requirements? Is there any place we can verify? Regards, Scott On 9 May, 2015, at 1:21 am, John Allen john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Scott You can search for any UK legislation on this site: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/search As far as I can see from a quick look, the Trades Descriptions Act has not undergone much change but the Consumer Protection Act has undergone considerable updating. Please understand most UK ACTS are often then modified and enhanced by subsidiary REGULATIONS published later - and that has certainly happened to a great extent w.r.t. the CPA in order to improve consumer protection ! Regards John Allen W.London, UK -Original Message- From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: 08 May 2015 18:03 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Trade Description Act 1968 Consumer Protection Act 1987 Hello All, Are these two Acts still valid or have been replaced by others after EU was established? Thanks and regards, Scott - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Integrating radio COSTs into other equipment
RTTE approved 3G GSM module (EN 301 511) is integrated into an EN 61326-1 measurement product. Maybe this call for new radio tests such as radiated spurious emission. Anyone have experience about the consequences integrating such radio COTS? Regards Amund - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Radiated Immunity at 1meter distance
Hi Brian, An interesting problem. I suppose that you could perform the test at any distance you wanted provided you correctly calibrated at the UFA plane. This means you could get the best of both worlds in terms of UFA size and maximum field strength. Regards, James -Original Message- From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: 08 May 2015 20:56 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Radiated Immunity at 1meter distance With the release of the 4th edition of IEC60601, we are being asked if we can hit 28V/m for Radiated Immunity on the list of bands/frequency called out in Table 9. In our current test setup in a large chamber setup in a 3 meter FAR, we can barely hit 18 V/m CW at some frequencies. Not sure about these Wireless frequencies until we try. There is a note at the bottom of table 9 which states that we can test at a 1 meter distance per IEC 61000-4-3, which should increase power but wouldn't this also quite drastically narrow the size of the UFA? I'm sure I can calibrate a 0.5m x 0.5m window but the standard implies that the Independent Window Method is only allowed for frequencies above 1Ghz. I use a large log antenna below 1Ghz and since I've never tried I'm not sure if the beam width limits the size of the UFA at a 1 meter distance. Done anyone have experience with this and can give me some pointers before I start wasting my time? I assume at a 1 meter distance, my UFA would be much smaller. How would you recommend I perform the calibration test. In one example, the EUT will be floor standing yet over 2 meters in length. We have to move the EUT to test a section of it as a time as it is. The Window Method also wants you to position the transmit antenna in the center of the Window, but at frequencies below 1Ghz, the radials on my log antenna are so long I cannot lower the antenna to 1.05m off the floor without the longer radials getting too close to the floor. Any help or advice would be helpful. Regards, The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Integrating radio COSTs into other equipment
Hello Amund, This is a general reply about installing CE Marked radio modules into host products.. The important thing to remember is that there no certification process under the RTTE Directive and also no modular approvals. Anyone installing the module into a product becomes responsible for the compliance of the overall product, with the RTTE Directive. Radio, EMC, Safety. It's possible to imagine cases where the test results for the radio performance (made by the module manufacturer, on the module) could be used to show compliance of the overall final product. For example, if the module is installed ok in accordance with manufacturer's instructions, you could imagine that the power, frequency, etc., should not be changed. Many module installers rely on most of the tests in the radio test report of the module for their compliance to Article 3.2 of the RTTE Directive. For radiated emissions of the transmitter module (also Article 3.2) in the final product, I know that most module manufacturers recommend that the final host product should be re-tested and I certainly think this is a good recommendation. Anyone who has tested emissions of final products with modules installed will know that the emissions from the module can sometimes fail when installed in a host. For EMC and Safety, it is very difficult (impossible?) to imagine that any tests of the module might be representative of the radio's performance inside a host; so the host should really be treated as a new product for testing to standards like EN 301 489-7, EN 301 489-24, product safety, etc. Finally; I see an incredibly wide variation in testing approach from module manufacturers for CE Marking a module. Just because it is CE Marked, does not mean they have fully tested it for every possible installation! This link is very useful.. http://www.rtteca.com/TGN01%20-%20May%202013.pdf Michael. -Original Message- From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: 11 May 2015 07:55 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Integrating radio COSTs into other equipment RTTE approved 3G GSM module (EN 301 511) is integrated into an EN 61326-1 measurement product. Maybe this call for new radio tests such as radiated spurious emission. Anyone have experience about the consequences integrating such radio COTS? Regards Amund - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Radiated Immunity at 1meter distance
Additional thought: near/far field distances would also have to be considered. -Original Message- From: Pawson, James Sent: 11 May 2015 09:19 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Radiated Immunity at 1meter distance Hi Brian, An interesting problem. I suppose that you could perform the test at any distance you wanted provided you correctly calibrated at the UFA plane. This means you could get the best of both worlds in terms of UFA size and maximum field strength. Regards, James -Original Message- From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: 08 May 2015 20:56 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Radiated Immunity at 1meter distance With the release of the 4th edition of IEC60601, we are being asked if we can hit 28V/m for Radiated Immunity on the list of bands/frequency called out in Table 9. In our current test setup in a large chamber setup in a 3 meter FAR, we can barely hit 18 V/m CW at some frequencies. Not sure about these Wireless frequencies until we try. There is a note at the bottom of table 9 which states that we can test at a 1 meter distance per IEC 61000-4-3, which should increase power but wouldn't this also quite drastically narrow the size of the UFA? I'm sure I can calibrate a 0.5m x 0.5m window but the standard implies that the Independent Window Method is only allowed for frequencies above 1Ghz. I use a large log antenna below 1Ghz and since I've never tried I'm not sure if the beam width limits the size of the UFA at a 1 meter distance. Done anyone have experience with this and can give me some pointers before I start wasting my time? I assume at a 1 meter distance, my UFA would be much smaller. How would you recommend I perform the calibration test. In one example, the EUT will be floor standing yet over 2 meters in length. We have to move the EUT to test a section of it as a time as it is. The Window Method also wants you to position the transmit antenna in the center of the Window, but at frequencies below 1Ghz, the radials on my log antenna are so long I cannot lower the antenna to 1.05m off the floor without the longer radials getting too close to the floor. Any help or advice would be helpful. Regards, The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules:
Re: [PSES] Accreditation for standard comprehension?
Very interesting question - have never thought about this. Am not aware of such a 'KSA' requirement for evaluations of an individual other than for building code inspectors (AHJ) in North America, and for most certified electricians in U.S. and Canada. But not certain that these evaluations address any particular safety standards. Suppose that various agencies do this indirectly via evaluation of reports if your facility performs tests internally and writes reports for NRTL/SCC or NB review. There are general standards on how to run an accreditation scheme, but do not remember if standards knowledge is addressed. After more thought given, the only instances where subject to specific questions on safety/EMC standards was for various interviews, and where an IEC 'standard' unit was being used to verify veracity of my Type Test data and test technique. Would be interested in what others have encountered. Brian From: Crane, Lauren [mailto:lauren.cr...@kla-tencor.com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 4:16 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Accreditation for standard comprehension? Does anyone know of any conformance assessor certification schemes that have provisions requiring the applicant to demonstrate familiarity with the standards to which they will be assessing? I am familiar with a couple lab certification schemes that appear to focus on general business practices and professional qualifications and rigor of assessment, but not necessarily needing to demonstrate the assessor knows well what the standard requires. Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Integrating radio COSTs into other equipment
Michael, Do you think this applies to the case for installing a finished product? For example if I make and industrial machine and install a wireless keyboard that is already RTTE certified, have I created a new item (i.e. the machine) that must be assessed for RTTE conformance? I think the common sense answer is 'no', but Commission and ETSI guidance does not seem to address this scenario. Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor -Original Message- From: Michael Derby [mailto:micha...@acbcert.com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 6:10 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Integrating radio COSTs into other equipment Hello Amund, This is a general reply about installing CE Marked radio modules into host products.. The important thing to remember is that there no certification process under the RTTE Directive and also no modular approvals. Anyone installing the module into a product becomes responsible for the compliance of the overall product, with the RTTE Directive. Radio, EMC, Safety. It's possible to imagine cases where the test results for the radio performance (made by the module manufacturer, on the module) could be used to show compliance of the overall final product. For example, if the module is installed ok in accordance with manufacturer's instructions, you could imagine that the power, frequency, etc., should not be changed. Many module installers rely on most of the tests in the radio test report of the module for their compliance to Article 3.2 of the RTTE Directive. For radiated emissions of the transmitter module (also Article 3.2) in the final product, I know that most module manufacturers recommend that the final host product should be re-tested and I certainly think this is a good recommendation. Anyone who has tested emissions of final products with modules installed will know that the emissions from the module can sometimes fail when installed in a host. For EMC and Safety, it is very difficult (impossible?) to imagine that any tests of the module might be representative of the radio's performance inside a host; so the host should really be treated as a new product for testing to standards like EN 301 489-7, EN 301 489-24, product safety, etc. Finally; I see an incredibly wide variation in testing approach from module manufacturers for CE Marking a module. Just because it is CE Marked, does not mean they have fully tested it for every possible installation! This link is very useful.. http://www.rtteca.com/TGN01%20-%20May%202013.pdf Michael. -Original Message- From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: 11 May 2015 07:55 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Integrating radio COSTs into other equipment RTTE approved 3G GSM module (EN 301 511) is integrated into an EN 61326-1 measurement product. Maybe this call for new radio tests such as radiated spurious emission. Anyone have experience about the consequences integrating such radio COTS? Regards Amund - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To
[PSES] Accreditation for standard comprehension?
Does anyone know of any conformance assessor certification schemes that have provisions requiring the applicant to demonstrate familiarity with the standards to which they will be assessing? I am familiar with a couple lab certification schemes that appear to focus on general business practices and professional qualifications and rigor of assessment, but not necessarily needing to demonstrate the assessor knows well what the standard requires. Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
