Re: [PSES] Electrical Safety - Fundamental Standards and Concepts

2022-12-07 Thread Richard Nute
 

 

Hi James:

 

Understanding the basic physics and rationale of the safety standards
requires reverse engineering of the requirements.  And an understanding of
the people (and their biases) that wrote the standard.  Very difficult.

 

And, the safety standards are not necessarily in agreement with each other.
For example, one would think that electric shock requirements are
independent of the type of equipment, but they are not.  (In my opinion, we
should have a safety standard that addresses electric shock rather than
equipment.)

 

60664-1 is largely based on research by Stimper.  60479 is largely based on
research by Biegelmeier.  60990 has a good bibliography, although some of
the references have been ignored.  

 

I would recommend the following sources:

 

"Electrical Product Compliance and Safety Engineering," by Steli
Loznen, Constantin Bolintineau, and Jan Swart.  ISBN 13: 978-1-63081-011-5.

Papers presented at the annual IEEE Product Safety Engineering
Society "International Symposium on Product Compliance Engineering," 2004 to
2022. 

Join one or more national committees addressing product safety
standards.  

IEC Technical Committee documents.

UL "Bulletins of Research."  No longer available from UL, but
may be in some technical libraries.

Articles by Charles Dalziel. 

Books by Dr. Vyto Babrauskas, Ph.D. (Dr. Fire.)

Product Safety Newsletter, Product Safety Engineering
Newsletter.

"Electrical Shock Safety Criteria," Proceedings of the First
International Symposium on Electrical Shock Safety Criteria

1st Edition - January 1, 1985.  Editors: J.E. Bridges, G.L. Ford, I.A.
Sherman.  eBook ISBN: 9781483162201

 

With regard to electrically-caused fire in 62368-1, the PIS requirements
come from 60065 and Ernst Storm (deceased).  The 15-watt requirement came
from me based on ignition tests.  

 

Thermal burns are not due to object temperature, but skin temperature.
Standards requirements are object temperature.  

 

Have fun!  Best wishes for the holiday season,

Rich

 

 

From: James Pawson (U3C)  
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 5:07 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Electrical Safety - Fundamental Standards and Concepts

 

Hello experts,

 

My goal is to put together a reading and reference list of fundamental
standards that help me understand the basic physics and rationale behind the
requirements in safety standards (mainly EN 62368-1, EN 61010-1, EN
60335-1).

 

I've been finding a lot of useful references from the Normative References
sections of these standards and from the IEC TR 62368-2 explanatory notes.

 

In your opinion, what standards should I add to this list to expand my
knowledge of electrical safety?

 

Thanks in advance

James

 

 

 

General Terminology

  IEC 60050 IEV "Electropedia" although this
is sometimes lacking

 

Electric shock

IEC 60664-1 "Insulation coordination for equipment within low voltage supply
systems - Part 1: Principles, requirements and tests"

IEC 60990-1 "Methods of measurement of touch current and protective
conductor current"

IEC 60479 series shock current on humans and livestock

IEC 61201 Touch voltage limits

 

Electrically caused fire

Power source classification in 62368-1 references IEC 60065 and IEC 60950-1.
But where did they derive their information from? What are the power levels
based on?

UL 94 and UL 1581 for material and cable flammability

 

Thermal Burn

Basic standards detailing risks of touch temperatures ISO 13732-1 and IEC
Guide 117

Other?

 

Radiation

IEC 62471 "Photobiological safety of lamps and lamp systems"

IEC 60065 for audio levels

Other?

 

Mechanical hazards

???

 

 

 

 

James Pawson

Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver

 

Unit 3 Compliance Ltd

EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA :
Consultancy

 

  www.unit3compliance.co.uk  |
 ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk 

+44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957

2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL

Registered in England and Wales # 10574298

 

 


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Re: [PSES] [Spam] Re: [PSES] "how to fish" - UKCA extension legislation.

2022-12-07 Thread Rick Linford
Hi Doug,

Great link, but sorry for my ignorance of UK governance. To be clear this was a 
committee approval, it still needs to be approved by full House of Commons and 
the House of Lords before it is law, is that correct?

Does it require Prime Minister's signature?

@ Lauren Crane thanks for getting this started. The proverb about teaching a 
man(person) to fish comes to mind. And yet I still asked questions.

Rick

From: Douglas Nix <0bb8ff993b10-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 8:19 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [Spam] Re: [PSES] "how to fish" - UKCA extension legislation.

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Andrew, Colleagues,

I watched the proceeding today, and the proposal received acceptance after some 
debate. If you missed it, you can view the recording here: 
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/072dac0e-318e-403b-bd0c-29d3834427dd#player-tabs/.
 It's also possible to download a recording for those that want to obsess over 
the details.

There is no further clarity on plans for the future beyond the extension of the 
mandatory implementation date.

Doug Nix
d...@mac.com

"The way to solve the conflict between human values and technological needs is 
not to run away from technology. That's impossible. The way to resolve the 
conflict is to break down the barriers of dualistic thought that prevent a real 
understanding of what technology is - not an exploitation of nature, but a 
fusion of nature and the human spirit into a new kind of creation that 
transcends both." - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Robert M. Pirsig





On Dec 6, 2022, at 05:12, Andrew Wood 
<170ccaf92990-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
 wrote:

Lauren,
Thanks for this info.
Having browsed around the parliament website a little, I have found that the SI 
has it's own webpage and appears to be scheduled for another committee meeting 
tomorrow at 2.30pm (that will be GMT) that is available to watch on 
parliament.tv.
>From the link you gave 
>https://commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/
>   scroll down to other business on the left and select 3rd item down 
>Statutory Instruments, enter "metrology" in the search box and the top hit is 
>this SI. Clicking through brings up the webpage which opens by default on 
>"details". Click the timeline tab just above dates laid and notice a debate 
>scheduled for tomorrow 7th December.

Clicking on that brings you to this page: 
https://committees.parliament.uk/event/16420
Hope this might be of interest.
Andy

Regards,

Andrew Wood
Compliance Manager - Hazardous Areas



Direct: +44 (0) 1246 581592
Address: AMETEK Land, Stubley Lane, Dronfield, Derbyshire. S18 1DJ England
E-mail: andrew.w...@ametek.com| Web: 
www.ametek-land.com


Re: [PSES] "how to fish" - UKCA extension legislation

2022-12-07 Thread Richard Georgerian
Many thanks Doug,

 

…Richard Georgerian

Compliance Engineer

HID Global

 

From: Douglas Nix <0bb8ff993b10-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 8:19 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] "how to fish" - UKCA extension legislation

 

Andrew, Colleagues,

 

I watched the proceeding today, and the proposal received acceptance after some 
debate. If you missed it, you can view the recording here: 
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/072dac0e-318e-403b-bd0c-29d3834427dd#player-tabs/.
 It’s also possible to download a recording for those that want to obsess over 
the details.

 

There is no further clarity on plans for the future beyond the extension of the 
mandatory implementation date.

 

Doug Nix

d...@mac.com  

 

"The way to solve the conflict between human values and technological needs is 
not to run away from technology. That's impossible. The way to resolve the 
conflict is to break down the barriers of dualistic thought that prevent a real 
understanding of what technology is – not an exploitation of nature, but a 
fusion of nature and the human spirit into a new kind of creation that 
transcends both." – Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Robert M. Pirsig 





 





On Dec 6, 2022, at 05:12, Andrew Wood 
<170ccaf92990-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
 > wrote:

 

Lauren,

Thanks for this info.

Having browsed around the parliament website a little, I have found that the SI 
has it’s own webpage and appears to be scheduled for another committee meeting 
tomorrow at 2.30pm (that will be GMT) that is available to watch on  
 parliament.tv.

>From the link you gave   
>https://commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/   scroll down to other business on the 
>left and select 3rd item down Statutory Instruments, enter “metrology” in the 
>search box and the top hit is this SI. Clicking through brings up the webpage 
>which opens by default on “details”. Click the timeline tab just above dates 
>laid and notice a debate scheduled for tomorrow 7th December.

 

Clicking on that brings you to this page:  
 
https://committees.parliament.uk/event/16420

Hope this might be of interest.

Andy

 

Regards,

 

Andrew Wood

Compliance Manager – Hazardous Areas

 

  

 

Direct: +44 (0) 1246 581592   

Address: AMETEK Land, Stubley Lane, Dronfield, Derbyshire. S18 1DJ England

E-mail:   andrew.w...@ametek.com| Web:  
 www.ametek-land.com

 

  

 

From: Lauren Crane <  
1afd08519f18-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> 
Sent: 02 December 2022 22:17
To:   EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] "how to fish" - UKCA extension legislation

 

***NOTICE*** This came from an external source. Use caution when replying, 
clicking links, or opening attachments.

For those keeping score at home on when the UKCA 2yr extension legislation is 
actually passed, this is how I am tracking

 

Goto  

 https://commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/

Click on HTML or PDF version of “Daily Order Paper” in the “Today’s business 
papers” section.

Search on “Metrology” and you should quickly (or eventually) land on 
information titled

“Secretary Grant Shapps

That the draft  

 Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional Provisions) 
Regulations 2022, which were laid before this House on 14 November, be 
approved.”

If you look today, you can see it is now “remaining order 36”. It was 
“remaining order 41” on November 28.

Best Regards, 

-Lauren

 


LAM RESEARCH CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any 
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"E-mail Transmission") may be subject to one or more of the following based on 
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Re: [PSES] EN 62368-1 : 2014

2022-12-07 Thread Charlie Blackham
Scott

My understanding is that the extension is purely so that there is not an 
expired standard listed in the OJ for the LVD – that’s all

There is no legal link between the dates in a standard and compliance with a 
Directive

A manufacturer is free to use whatever standards they wish for compliance with 
LVD and article 3.1(a) of the RED, but only Harmonised Standards currently 
listed in the OJ provide a Presumption of Conformity

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Xe 
Sent: 07 December 2022 16:43
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EN 62368-1 : 2014

CENELEC recently extended DoW for 18 months from 06/01/2023 to 06/07/2024.  
What are the impacts on importers/manufacturers, test houses and market 
surveillances?

EN 62368-1 : 2014 is still valid for LVD/RED in EUOJ.  All the relevant 
products should follow this version for EU markets.  What is the point of this 
change to them?

In general the test houses give unclear interpretations to their clients in 
this aspect.  Sometimes, they follow EUOJ requirements but sometimes CENELEC.  
Some importers/manufacturers also confuse which requirements to follow.  Some 
countries also may not adopt the latest IEC/EN standard as their national 
standards.  Can't withdrawn standards be used?

Thanks and best regards,

Scott
-


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[PSES] EN 62368-1 : 2014

2022-12-07 Thread Scott Xe
CENELEC recently extended DoW for 18 months from 06/01/2023 to 06/07/2024.
What are the impacts on importers/manufacturers, test houses and market
surveillances?

EN 62368-1 : 2014 is still valid for LVD/RED in EUOJ.  All the relevant
products should follow this version for EU markets.  What is the point of
this change to them?

In general the test houses give unclear interpretations to their clients
in this aspect.  Sometimes, they follow EUOJ requirements but sometimes
CENELEC.  Some importers/manufacturers also confuse which requirements to
follow.  Some countries also may not adopt the latest IEC/EN standard as
their national standards.  Can't withdrawn standards be used?

Thanks and best regards,

Scott

-

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Re: [PSES] "how to fish" - UKCA extension legislation

2022-12-07 Thread Douglas Nix
Andrew, Colleagues,

I watched the proceeding today, and the proposal received acceptance after some 
debate. If you missed it, you can view the recording here: 
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/072dac0e-318e-403b-bd0c-29d3834427dd#player-tabs/.
 It’s also possible to download a recording for those that want to obsess over 
the details.

There is no further clarity on plans for the future beyond the extension of the 
mandatory implementation date.

Doug Nix
d...@mac.com

"The way to solve the conflict between human values and technological needs is 
not to run away from technology. That's impossible. The way to resolve the 
conflict is to break down the barriers of dualistic thought that prevent a real 
understanding of what technology is – not an exploitation of nature, but a 
fusion of nature and the human spirit into a new kind of creation that 
transcends both." – Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Robert M. Pirsig 




> On Dec 6, 2022, at 05:12, Andrew Wood 
> <170ccaf92990-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> Lauren,
> Thanks for this info.
> Having browsed around the parliament website a little, I have found that the 
> SI has it’s own webpage and appears to be scheduled for another committee 
> meeting tomorrow at 2.30pm (that will be GMT) that is available to watch on 
> parliament.tv .
> From the link you gave https://commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/   scroll down 
> to other business on the left and select 3rd item down Statutory Instruments, 
> enter “metrology” in the search box and the top hit is this SI. Clicking 
> through brings up the webpage which opens by default on “details”. Click the 
> timeline tab just above dates laid and notice a debate scheduled for tomorrow 
> 7th December.
>  
> Clicking on that brings you to this page: 
> https://committees.parliament.uk/event/16420
> Hope this might be of interest.
> Andy
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Andrew Wood
> Compliance Manager – Hazardous Areas
>  
>  
>  
> Direct: +44 (0) 1246 581592   
> Address: AMETEK Land, Stubley Lane, Dronfield, Derbyshire. S18 1DJ England
> E-mail: andrew.w...@ametek.com|  Web: 
> www.ametek-land.com 
>  
>  
>  
> From: Lauren Crane <1afd08519f18-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
> > 
> Sent: 02 December 2022 22:17
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> Subject: [PSES] "how to fish" - UKCA extension legislation
>  
> ***NOTICE*** This came from an external source. Use caution when replying, 
> clicking links, or opening attachments.
> For those keeping score at home on when the UKCA 2yr extension legislation is 
> actually passed, this is how I am tracking
>  
> Goto https://commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/ 
> 
> Click on HTML or PDF version of “Daily Order Paper” in the “Today’s business 
> papers” section.
> Search on “Metrology” and you should quickly (or eventually) land on 
> information titled
> “Secretary Grant Shapps
> That the draft Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional 
> Provisions) Regulations 2022 
> ,
>  which were laid before this House on 14 November, be approved.”
> 
> If you look today, you can see it is now “remaining order 36”. It was 
> “remaining order 41” on November 28.
> 
> Best Regards, 
> -Lauren
>  
> 
> LAM RESEARCH CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any 
> documents, files, or previous e-mail messages attached to it, (collectively, 
> "E-mail Transmission") may be subject to one or more of the following based 
> on the associated sensitivity level: E-mail Transmission (i) contains 
> confidential information, (ii) is prohibited from distribution outside of 
> Lam, and/or (iii) is intended solely for and restricted to the specified 
> recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible 
> for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained 
> in or attached to this message is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received 
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> Confidential – Limited Access and Use
> -
> 
> This message is from the 

Re: [PSES] Regulation vs Directive

2022-12-07 Thread Scott Xe
Hi Charlie,

Thanks for the explanation!  It seems the importers and manufacturers do
not have much differences to implement the law accordingly.

Regards,

Scott


On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 at 00:09, Charlie Blackham 
wrote:

> Scott
>
>
>
> A Directive has to be transposed into the law of each member state
>
>
>
> A Regulation applies without the need to do this
>
>
>
> Types of legislation (europa.eu)
> 
>
>
>
> The EU is moving towards Regulations as they are binding without member
> states needing to implement national law
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
> *Charlie Blackham*
>
> *Sulis Consultants Ltd*
>
> *Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317*
>
> *Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/  *
>
> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247
>
>
>
> *From:* Scott Xe 
> *Sent:* 06 December 2022 15:51
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] Regulation vs Directive
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
>
>
> Some of the new proposals of Directive change the Directive to Regulation
> such as General Product Safety Regulation, Packaging and Packaging Waste
> Regulation, Portable battery regulation, etc, .  What are the key
> differences between Regulation and Directive?
>
>
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
>
>
> Scott
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
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[PSES] Electrical Safety - Fundamental Standards and Concepts

2022-12-07 Thread James Pawson (U3C)
Hello experts,

 

My goal is to put together a reading and reference list of fundamental
standards that help me understand the basic physics and rationale behind the
requirements in safety standards (mainly EN 62368-1, EN 61010-1, EN
60335-1).

 

I've been finding a lot of useful references from the Normative References
sections of these standards and from the IEC TR 62368-2 explanatory notes.

 

In your opinion, what standards should I add to this list to expand my
knowledge of electrical safety?

 

Thanks in advance

James

 

 

 

General Terminology

IEC 60050 IEV   "Electropedia" although this
is sometimes lacking

 

Electric shock

IEC 60664-1 "Insulation coordination for equipment within low voltage supply
systems - Part 1: Principles, requirements and tests"

IEC 60990-1 "Methods of measurement of touch current and protective
conductor current"

IEC 60479 series shock current on humans and livestock

IEC 61201 Touch voltage limits

 

Electrically caused fire

Power source classification in 62368-1 references IEC 60065 and IEC 60950-1.
But where did they derive their information from? What are the power levels
based on?

UL 94 and UL 1581 for material and cable flammability

 

Thermal Burn

Basic standards detailing risks of touch temperatures ISO 13732-1 and IEC
Guide 117

Other?

 

Radiation

IEC 62471 "Photobiological safety of lamps and lamp systems"

IEC 60065 for audio levels

Other?

 

Mechanical hazards

???

 

 

 

 

James Pawson

Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver

 

Unit 3 Compliance Ltd

EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA :
Consultancy

 

  www.unit3compliance.co.uk  |
 ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk 

+44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957

2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL

Registered in England and Wales # 10574298

 

 

 


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David Heald: 
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