Re: [PSES] Conducted emissions for Split-phase 120/240V needs three-phase LISN?

[Brent DeWitt]

It may be worth noting at any LISN using magnetic cores/elements in the 
50uH bit, must be calibrated at the maximum rated current to verify that 
saturation isn't a problem.


On 4/5/2024 9:56 PM, Brent DeWitt wrote:
In my opinion, all of this is rather simple.  Any LISN, ANSI or CISPR, 
references the noise to "ground".  Any conductor not being measured 
should be terminated in 50 ohms.  Whatever network used needs to make 
that so.  Take your pick.


On 4/5/2024 9:43 PM, T.Sato wrote:

On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 22:01:29 GMT,
   Brian Gregory  wrote:

  Hello and Happy Friday, I've got a sales guy telling me our 
120/240V EUT needs two pair of single-phase LISNs for our CE test 
bench.That's only slightly cheaper than a 3-phase unit at > 50A, but 
very bulky. Can someone remind me why I'd need 4, 50A single-phase 
LISNs for our unit?  I could see 3 (one for the neutral) but I'm not 
so savvy on EMC test equipment.
I think you can use either single 3-phase (usually 4 conductors + PE) 
LISN
or two single-phase (2 conductors + PE) LISNs whichever you like, 
although

I would prefer to use a single 3-phase LISN.

BTW, there maybe confusion with the term "single-phase LISNs" here.
Is it LISNs commonly used for single-phase AC supply?
Or is it LISNs for an single power supplying conductor?

Regards,
Tom

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Re: [PSES] Conducted emissions for Split-phase 120/240V needs three-phase LISN?

[Brent DeWitt]

In my opinion, all of this is rather simple.  Any LISN, ANSI or CISPR, 
references the noise to "ground".  Any conductor not being measured 
should be terminated in 50 ohms.  Whatever network used needs to make 
that so.  Take your pick.


On 4/5/2024 9:43 PM, T.Sato wrote:

On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 22:01:29 GMT,
   Brian Gregory  wrote:


  Hello and Happy Friday, I've got a sales guy telling me our 120/240V EUT needs 
two pair of single-phase LISNs for our CE test bench.That's only slightly cheaper 
than a 3-phase unit at > 50A, but very bulky. Can someone remind me why I'd 
need 4, 50A single-phase LISNs for our unit?  I could see 3 (one for the neutral) 
but I'm not so savvy on EMC test equipment.

I think you can use either single 3-phase (usually 4 conductors + PE) LISN
or two single-phase (2 conductors + PE) LISNs whichever you like, although
I would prefer to use a single 3-phase LISN.

BTW, there maybe confusion with the term "single-phase LISNs" here.
Is it LISNs commonly used for single-phase AC supply?
Or is it LISNs for an single power supplying conductor?

Regards,
Tom

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Re: [PSES] Conducted emissions for Split-phase 120/240V needs three-phase LISN?

[T.Sato]

On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 22:01:29 GMT,
  Brian Gregory  wrote:

>  Hello and Happy Friday, I've got a sales guy telling me our 120/240V EUT 
> needs two pair of single-phase LISNs for our CE test bench.That's only 
> slightly cheaper than a 3-phase unit at > 50A, but very bulky. Can someone 
> remind me why I'd need 4, 50A single-phase LISNs for our unit?  I could see 3 
> (one for the neutral) but I'm not so savvy on EMC test equipment.

I think you can use either single 3-phase (usually 4 conductors + PE) LISN
or two single-phase (2 conductors + PE) LISNs whichever you like, although
I would prefer to use a single 3-phase LISN.

BTW, there maybe confusion with the term "single-phase LISNs" here.
Is it LISNs commonly used for single-phase AC supply?
Or is it LISNs for an single power supplying conductor?

Regards,
Tom

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Re: [PSES] Conducted emissions for Split-phase 120/240V needs three-phase LISN?

[Lfresearch]

The way I understand this is that if we are in the USA, then our 240 volts is 
likely Bi-Phase, not like Europe which has the Line swinging about the neutral 
by 240 volts. In that case you can use a V LISN, or two single phase LISN’s.

In the USA with a Bi-Phase you need 3 LISN’s. When I test these, I use a 3 
phase LISN rather than 3 individual LISN’s. It’s crazy to split the power cord 
to reach the mains terminal on each LISN.

Take care listening to sales guys….

My 10 cents,

Derek.

> On Apr 5, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Ken Javor  wrote:
> 
> I may be missing something here, but you would need a pair of LISNs for a box 
> that runs off a single phase and neutral.  Most equipments of which I am 
> aware use the same power connector pins whether 120 or 240 V. In that case, 
> you just need one pair of LISNs. If for some reason your box runs off both 
> 120 V and 240 simultaneously, then you would need two pairs of LISNs.
>  
> Current rating is whatever you need. I believe there are several 
> manufacturers offering models designed for up to 16 A. 
>  
> -- 
>  
> Ken Javor
> Ph: (256) 650-5261
>  
>  
>  Hello and Happy Friday,
>  
> I've got a sales guy telling me our 120/240V EUT needs two pair of 
> single-phase LISNs for our CE test bench.
> That's only slightly cheaper than a 3-phase unit at > 50A, but very bulky.
>  
> Can someone remind me why I'd need 4, 50A single-phase LISNs for our unit?  I 
> could see 3 (one for the neutral) but I'm not so savvy on EMC test equipment.
>  
> thanks, 
>  
> Colorado Brian 
> From: Brian Gregory  >
> Reply-To: Brian Gregory  >
> Date: Friday, April 5, 2024 at 5:01 PM
> To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
> Subject: [PSES] Conducted emissions for Split-phase 120/240V needs 
> three-phase LISN?
>  
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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Re: [PSES] Conducted emissions for Split-phase 120/240V needs three-phase LISN?

[Ken Javor]

I may be missing something here, but you would need a pair of LISNs for a box 
that runs off a single phase and neutral.  Most equipments of which I am aware 
use the same power connector pins whether 120 or 240 V. In that case, you just 
need one pair of LISNs. If for some reason your box runs off both 120 V and 240 
simultaneously, then you would need two pairs of LISNs.

 

Current rating is whatever you need. I believe there are several manufacturers 
offering models designed for up to 16 A. 

 

-- 

 

Ken Javor

Ph: (256) 650-5261

 

 

 Hello and Happy Friday,

 

I've got a sales guy telling me our 120/240V EUT needs two pair of single-phase 
LISNs for our CE test bench.

That's only slightly cheaper than a 3-phase unit at > 50A, but very bulky.

 

Can someone remind me why I'd need 4, 50A single-phase LISNs for our unit?  I 
could see 3 (one for the neutral) but I'm not so savvy on EMC test equipment.

 

thanks, 

 

Colorado Brian 

From: Brian Gregory 
Reply-To: Brian Gregory 
Date: Friday, April 5, 2024 at 5:01 PM
To: 
Subject: [PSES] Conducted emissions for Split-phase 120/240V needs three-phase 
LISN?

 

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Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

[Brent DeWitt]

This gets a bit more complicated for FCC regulations on emissions above 
1 GHz, where the prescribed detector is an average detector (at 1 MHz 
RBW) and the peak limit is defined as 20 dB above that.


On 4/5/2024 7:19 PM, Brent DeWitt wrote:
That is what I expected you meant, but a bit confusing based on the 
original topic.  You are certainly correct with respect to conducted 
emissions!


On 4/5/2024 7:14 PM, rmm.priv...@gmail.com wrote:


I was thinking conducted emissions in the context of average detectors.

*From:*Brent DeWitt 
*Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 3:48 PM
*To:* rmm.priv...@gmail.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

Could you clarify when you would choose to use an average detector 
for radiated emissions between 30 and 1000 MHz?


On 4/5/2024 6:39 PM, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:

I’m having trouble with /“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB),
where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance
levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest
disturbances shall be recorded.”/

//

Does this CISPR measurement methods standard expect you to record
the six highest signals which are less than or equal to -20dB wrt
the *average limit* when using an*average detector *and the*QP
limit *when using a*QP detector*? Perhaps that is made clear in
the product-specific standard (like EN55022 or CISPR 11, etc)

Comments?

//

/Ralph/

*From:*Stultz, Mark
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>

*Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 12:33 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

Hello PSES brain trust,

When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies
should be quasi-peaked?

CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:

/“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit
level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the
frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be
recorded.”/

We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements
above the limit, even if that is more than six points.

I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six,
regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark



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emc-pstc discussion list. To 

Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

[Brent DeWitt]

That is what I expected you meant, but a bit confusing based on the 
original topic.  You are certainly correct with respect to conducted 
emissions!


On 4/5/2024 7:14 PM, rmm.priv...@gmail.com wrote:


I was thinking conducted emissions in the context of average detectors.

*From:*Brent DeWitt 
*Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 3:48 PM
*To:* rmm.priv...@gmail.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

Could you clarify when you would choose to use an average detector for 
radiated emissions between 30 and 1000 MHz?


On 4/5/2024 6:39 PM, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:

I’m having trouble with /“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB),
where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance
levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest
disturbances shall be recorded.”/

//

Does this CISPR measurement methods standard expect you to record
the six highest signals which are less than or equal to -20dB wrt
the *average limit* when using an*average detector *and the*QP
limit *when using a*QP detector*? Perhaps that is made clear in
the product-specific standard (like EN55022 or CISPR 11, etc)

Comments?

//

/Ralph/

*From:*Stultz, Mark
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>

*Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 12:33 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

Hello PSES brain trust,

When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies
should be quasi-peaked?

CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:

/“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level
in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies
of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded.”/

We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above
the limit, even if that is more than six points.

I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six,
regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark



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Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

[Ralph McDiarmid]

I was thinking conducted emissions in the context of average detectors.

 

From: Brent DeWitt  
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 3:48 PM
To: rmm.priv...@gmail.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

 

Could you clarify when you would choose to use an average detector for radiated 
emissions between 30 and 1000 MHz?

On 4/5/2024 6:39 PM, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:

I’m having trouble with “Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the 
limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of 
at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded.”

 

Does this CISPR measurement methods standard expect you to record the six 
highest signals which are less than or equal to -20dB wrt the average limit 
when using an average detector and the QP limit when using a QP detector? 
Perhaps that is made clear in the product-specific standard (like EN55022 or 
CISPR 11, etc)

 

Comments?

 

 

Ralph

 

 

From: Stultz, Mark   
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 12:33 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

 

Hello PSES brain trust,

When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be 
quasi-peaked?  

CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: 

“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in 
logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the 
six highest disturbances shall be recorded.”

 

We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, 
even if that is more than six points.

I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of 
how many peak measurements are above the limit.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Mark


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Re: [PSES] I would like to hear your thoughts please

[Ralph McDiarmid]

That has been my experience with CB Scheme, E-mark, and product safety in the 
USA using an NRTL.  Namely, pick worst-case with justifications, talk with your 
certifier, and reach an understanding.  If they won't budge and insist on full 
testing of every variant, move to another certifier who is willing to listen to 
reason.

If the "code" is different and your firmware is a functional safety component, 
then you may not have much choice but to repeat at least some of the tests 
called out in the test plan to verify nothing was "broken" when tweaking the 
firmware to accommodate each hardware variant.

Ralph

-Original Message-
From: Lfresearch <00734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 3:47 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] I would like to hear your thoughts please

Hi folks,

I would like to advise a client at where to draw the line on what needs 
testing. I would like to solicit opinions besides my own. Otherwise it’s the 
fox urging the chicken coop…

So a manufacturer that makes a product of which there will be several variants. 
All use the same board, but have different sections of circuits populated. This 
may require slightly different code to run on the same uP in each case.

So.. The burning question is can we perform and analysis that postulates a 
worse case hardware/software combination and test just one configuration? Or, 
do we have to do every combination?

Or, are there some guidelines about where we draw the line of what to test and 
what can be claimed as similarity?

Off list responses are welcome too.

Thanks,

Derek Walton
LFResearch/SSCLabs.

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Re: [PSES] I would like to hear your thoughts please

[Brent DeWitt]

Tough one!  The problem lies in the determination of "worst case". While 
it would be easy to presume that having all of the hardware populated is 
worst case, it overlooks the effects of un-terminated stubs and other SI 
related issues.  In addition, with the world of firmware based PLL 
clocks and memory traffic, it is a tough thing to determine.  My opinion 
would be to preform the simplest pre-scan on each configuration and base 
the final, rigorous certification based on that knowledge.


Brent Dewitt
Milford, MA

On 4/5/2024 6:47 PM, Lfresearch wrote:

Hi folks,

I would like to advise a client at where to draw the line on what needs 
testing. I would like to solicit opinions besides my own. Otherwise it’s the 
fox urging the chicken coop…

So a manufacturer that makes a product of which there will be several variants. 
All use the same board, but have different sections of circuits populated. This 
may require slightly different code to run on the same uP in each case.

So.. The burning question is can we perform and analysis that postulates a 
worse case hardware/software combination and test just one configuration? Or, 
do we have to do every combination?

Or, are there some guidelines about where we draw the line of what to test and 
what can be claimed as similarity?

Off list responses are welcome too.

Thanks,

Derek Walton
LFResearch/SSCLabs.

-

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Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

[Brent DeWitt]

Could you clarify when you would choose to use an average detector for 
radiated emissions between 30 and 1000 MHz?


On 4/5/2024 6:39 PM, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:


I’m having trouble with /“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where 
L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and 
the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be 
recorded.”/


//

Does this CISPR measurement methods standard expect you to record the 
six highest signals which are less than or equal to -20dB wrt the 
*average limit* when using an*average detector *and the*QP limit *when 
using a*QP detector*? Perhaps that is made clear in the 
product-specific standard (like EN55022 or CISPR 11, etc)


Comments?

//

/Ralph/

*From:*Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
*Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 12:33 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

Hello PSES brain trust,

When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies 
should be quasi-peaked?


CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:

/“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in 
logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at 
least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded.”/


We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the 
limit, even if that is more than six points.


I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, 
regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit.


Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark



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[PSES] I would like to hear your thoughts please

[Lfresearch]

Hi folks,

I would like to advise a client at where to draw the line on what needs 
testing. I would like to solicit opinions besides my own. Otherwise it’s the 
fox urging the chicken coop…

So a manufacturer that makes a product of which there will be several variants. 
All use the same board, but have different sections of circuits populated. This 
may require slightly different code to run on the same uP in each case.

So.. The burning question is can we perform and analysis that postulates a 
worse case hardware/software combination and test just one configuration? Or, 
do we have to do every combination?

Or, are there some guidelines about where we draw the line of what to test and 
what can be claimed as similarity?

Off list responses are welcome too.

Thanks,

Derek Walton
LFResearch/SSCLabs.

-

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Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

[Ralph McDiarmid]

I'm having trouble with "Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is
the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the
frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded."

 

Does this CISPR measurement methods standard expect you to record the six
highest signals which are less than or equal to -20dB wrt the average limit
when using an average detector and the QP limit when using a QP detector?
Perhaps that is made clear in the product-specific standard (like EN55022 or
CISPR 11, etc)

 

Comments?

 

 

Ralph

 

 

From: Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 12:33 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

 

Hello PSES brain trust,

When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be
quasi-peaked?  

CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: 

"Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in
logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least
the six highest disturbances shall be recorded."

 

We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the
limit, even if that is more than six points.

I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless
of how many peak measurements are above the limit.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Mark

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[PSES] Conducted emissions for Split-phase 120/240V needs three-phase LISN?

[Brian Gregory]

 Hello and Happy Friday, I've got a sales guy telling me our 120/240V EUT needs 
two pair of single-phase LISNs for our CE test bench.That's only slightly 
cheaper than a 3-phase unit at > 50A, but very bulky. Can someone remind me why 
I'd need 4, 50A single-phase LISNs for our unit?  I could see 3 (one for the 
neutral) but I'm not so savvy on EMC test equipment. thanks,  Colorado Brian

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Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

[Stultz, Mark]

Hi Larry,

I agree with you completely...I think the lab didn't see that peak going over 
the limit line and therefore didn't QP.  We only noticed now that they have 
sent the report several weeks later.  They're arguing that there is no need to 
retest.

Thanks,
Mark


From: Larry K. Stillings 
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 3:46 PM
To: Stultz, Mark ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

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Mark,

If the peak is above the limit (which most standards allow up to 20 dB), then 
wouldn't you also need to know the quasi-peak of all the signals above the 
limit so you could compare them to the limit? The limit is in QP not peak.

I guess failing is failing, but you really wouldn't know by how much.

Is it really that much more work to take a QP, or maybe the automation software 
doesn't support that? We're old school and still take the data manually and I 
have the guys always take both (peak and quasi-peak).

Larry K. Stillings
Compliance Worldwide, Inc.
Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World!
FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety
357 Main Street
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From: Stultz, Mark
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2024 3:33 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

Hello PSES brain trust,
When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be 
quasi-peaked?
CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:
"Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in 
logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the 
six highest disturbances shall be recorded."

We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, 
even if that is more than six points.
I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of 
how many peak measurements are above the limit.
Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark


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Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

[Larry K. Stillings]

Mark,

If the peak is above the limit (which most standards allow up to 20 dB), then 
wouldn't you also need to know the quasi-peak of all the signals above the 
limit so you could compare them to the limit? The limit is in QP not peak.

I guess failing is failing, but you really wouldn't know by how much.

Is it really that much more work to take a QP, or maybe the automation software 
doesn't support that? We're old school and still take the data manually and I 
have the guys always take both (peak and quasi-peak).

Larry K. Stillings
Compliance Worldwide, Inc.
Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World!
FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety
357 Main Street
Sandown, NH 03873
(603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445
complianceworldwide.com


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From: Stultz, Mark
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2024 3:33 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

Hello PSES brain trust,
When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be 
quasi-peaked?
CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:
"Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in 
logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the 
six highest disturbances shall be recorded."

We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, 
even if that is more than six points.
I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of 
how many peak measurements are above the limit.
Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark


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Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

[Jim Bacher]

Mark, for the most part I always had 6 of the highest measured in each 
polarization, for a total of 12.  Depending on what we saw, we may have 
measured more for curiosity's sake.

Jim Bacher, WB8VSU

From: Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2024 3:33 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

Hello PSES brain trust,
When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be 
quasi-peaked?
CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:
"Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in 
logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the 
six highest disturbances shall be recorded."

We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, 
even if that is more than six points.
I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of 
how many peak measurements are above the limit.
Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark


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[PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

[Stultz, Mark]

Hello PSES brain trust,
When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be 
quasi-peaked?
CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:
"Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in 
logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the 
six highest disturbances shall be recorded."

We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, 
even if that is more than six points.
I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of 
how many peak measurements are above the limit.
Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark

-

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Re: [PSES] GFCI Receptacles

[Ralph McDiarmid]

NFPA can be viewed free online, however, CSA C22.1, C22.3, and C22.3 appear
to be by purchase only.

 

 

Ralph

 

From: Don Gies <2f2a08db2fba-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 11:20 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI Receptacles

 

Hi Steve, 

 

Hope all is well with you.  

 

See the National Electrical Code, NFPA 70, Article 210.8 for the list of
locations that require GFCI in the US.

 

In Canada, see Canadian Electrical Code, Part I, CSA C22.1, Rule 26-704 and
26-710, as well as other locations for GFCI requirements.

 

Best regards,

 

DON GIES

Field Service Engineer

 



 

p   +1 346 313 6216

e   donald.g...@non.se.com  

w  gutor.com

 

17 Capitol Reef Road

Howell, NJ 07731

United States

 



 

 

 

 

General

From: sgbrody mailto:sgbr...@comcast.net> > 
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2024 21:18
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] GFCI Receptacles

 

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

  _  

 

Esteemed experts:

 

It has always been what I thought was the requirement for GFCI receptacles
was only when the product or system was intended for a wet or damp location.

 

A system a client is having an NRTL fo a Field Evaluation on had receptacles
and they are being told they need to be GFCI.

 

NFPA-79 15.1.1 requires this only for receptacles to be used for, e.g.,
handheld power tools, test equipment, and other accessories.

 

The questions are:

- What is the definition of accessories as used in NFPA-79,

 - And is it written in any other standard where and when GFCI outlets are
required?

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device

 

  _  

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 =1 

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Re: [PSES] Fire codes related to batteries

[Ralph McDiarmid]

And, NFPA provides free, online, read-only access to all their standards.
So does UL.

 

Ralph

 

From: Don Gies <2f2a08db2fba-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 11:02 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Fire codes related to batteries

 

Hi Gary,

 

NFPA 1, Section 52 is very comprehensive. 

 

Also, see IEEE Std 1679.1, " IEEE Guide for the Characterization and
Evaluation of Lithium-Based Batteries in Stationary Applications."

 

Best regards,

 

DON GIES

Field Service Engineer

 



 

p   +1 346 313 6216

e   donald.g...@non.se.com  

w  gutor.com

 

17 Capitol Reef Road

Howell, NJ 07731

United States

 



 

 

 

 

General

From: Gary Tornquist <05big...@gmail.com  > 
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2024 12:47
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] Fire codes related to batteries

 

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

  _  

 

Hello Experts,

My client is using large capacity lithium-ion battery backup units in his
facility

 

The BBU's themselves are safety approved and also have UL9540A testing done
at the rack level. 

 

We are looking for code consultation (NFPA and ICC/IFC) to gather
requirements around the following: 

 

1.  Storage of batteries before installation in the facility. 
2.  Ventilation and fire suppression requirements 
3.  Spacing requirements 
4.  Any other code requirements that apply at the facility for use of
these BBU's. 

 

If you are able to assist with the request and have a code expert that can
provide the consultation, please let me know. 

 

Cheers,
Gary Tornquist

 

 

  _  

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Re: [PSES] GFCI Receptacles

[Don Gies]

Hi Steve,

Hope all is well with you.

See the National Electrical Code, NFPA 70, Article 210.8 for the list of 
locations that require GFCI in the US.

In Canada, see Canadian Electrical Code, Part I, CSA C22.1, Rule 26-704 and 
26-710, as well as other locations for GFCI requirements.

Best regards,

DON GIES
Field Service Engineer

[cid:image001.png@01DA8763.4E110020]

p   +1 346 313 6216
e   donald.g...@non.se.com
w  gutor.com

17 Capitol Reef Road
Howell, NJ 07731
United States

[cid:image002.png@01DA8763.4E110020]





General
From: sgbrody 
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2024 21:18
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] GFCI Receptacles


[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]




Esteemed experts:

It has always been what I thought was the requirement for GFCI receptacles was 
only when the product or system was intended for a wet or damp location.

A system a client is having an NRTL fo a Field Evaluation on had receptacles 
and they are being told they need to be GFCI.

NFPA-79 15.1.1 requires this only for receptacles to be used for, e.g., 
handheld power tools, test equipment, and other accessories.

The questions are:
- What is the definition of accessories as used in NFPA-79,
 - And is it written in any other standard where and when GFCI outlets are 
required?

Thank you.




Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device



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Re: [PSES] Fire codes related to batteries

[Don Gies]

Hi Gary,

NFPA 1, Section 52 is very comprehensive.

Also, see IEEE Std 1679.1, " IEEE Guide for the Characterization and Evaluation 
of Lithium-Based Batteries in Stationary Applications."

Best regards,

DON GIES
Field Service Engineer

[cid:image001.png@01DA875E.3DAC0450]

p   +1 346 313 6216
e   donald.g...@non.se.com
w  gutor.com

17 Capitol Reef Road
Howell, NJ 07731
United States

[cid:image002.png@01DA875E.3DAC0450]





General
From: Gary Tornquist <05big...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2024 12:47
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Fire codes related to batteries


[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]




Hello Experts,
My client is using large capacity lithium-ion battery backup units in his 
facility

The BBU's themselves are safety approved and also have UL9540A testing done at 
the rack level.

We are looking for code consultation (NFPA and ICC/IFC) to gather requirements 
around the following:


  1.  Storage of batteries before installation in the facility.
  2.  Ventilation and fire suppression requirements
  3.  Spacing requirements
  4.  Any other code requirements that apply at the facility for use of these 
BBU's.

If you are able to assist with the request and have a code expert that can 
provide the consultation, please let me know.

Cheers,
Gary Tornquist




This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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