Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-14 Thread John Woodgate

I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in
20041626.iaa08...@epgc196.sdd.hp.com) about '[Fwd: User Warning
Signal Words]', on Wed, 14 Nov 2001:

Most warnings are ignored because we use warnings
indiscriminately.  Like the story of the boy who cried
Wolf! we have diminished the effectiveness of warnings
by repeated and excessive use of marginally important
warnings.

Agreed, and products carry badly-printed words in 3-point type, too.


A warning is a crutch against a design that is not
safe.  A safely designed product does not require any
warnings.  

No, that's too strong. A warning can also (try to) prevent foreseeable
misuse. 'Replace fuse only with the same type.' is a notable example.

A warning message should be quite rare, and
then very carefully applied so as to maximize its
effectiveness.  Focus on a signal word keeps us from
addressing the really important parts of a warning 
message (and makes our job much easier because we don't
have to deal with clear text, graphic presentation,
and color).

Agreed, although specifying minimum dimensions (which ought to be of
considerable importance) is problematic in these days of ever-shrinking
products.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Eat mink and be dreary!

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Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-14 Thread Rich Nute




Hi John:


   My point is that, if attention-demanding words of differing intensity
   are considered necessary, how can they be chosen, other than the way
   they are at present?
   
   Of course, you may deny that differing intensity is necessary, so that
   only one word is required, but I am not sure that there would be a lot
   of support for that.

I do not deny that warnings have different degrees
of importance.

I do believe that the standards-made signal-word
intensity classification is largely ineffective in 
conveying the degree of importance of the warning.  

I believe the graphics of the presentation can be 
much more effective in setting the degree of importance
of the warning text than can the signal word.  For 
example, black text on yellow background, or white text 
on red background.  A box around the warning.  The 
STOP in white on an red octaganol background as a 
part of a warning is also a good attention-getter.  Etc.

I do agree with your assessment that there will be
little or no support to abandon the signal-word
standardization.  We have faith that these words do
indeed operate as defined in the standard.

I believe we have put way too much effort into the
signal word issue and not enough effort into classifying
the degree of importance of warning messages or dealing
with what must be said in a warning message, or 
standardizing the graphics and colors of warning messages.

Most warnings are ignored because we use warnings
indiscriminately.  Like the story of the boy who cried
Wolf! we have diminished the effectiveness of warnings
by repeated and excessive use of marginally important
warnings.

A warning is a crutch against a design that is not
safe.  A safely designed product does not require any
warnings.  A warning message should be quite rare, and
then very carefully applied so as to maximize its
effectiveness.  Focus on a signal word keeps us from
addressing the really important parts of a warning 
message (and makes our job much easier because we don't
have to deal with clear text, graphic presentation,
and color).


Best regards,
Rich







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Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-14 Thread John Woodgate

I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in
20032049.maa06...@epgc196.sdd.hp.com) about '[Fwd: User Warning
Signal Words]', on Tue, 13 Nov 2001:
Well... I guess I didn't make my point.

The ANSI standard defines three classes of signal 
words.  

I think you did, but you may have missed mine. You don't agree with
using 'danger', 'warning' and caution' as attention-demanding words of
differing intensity, because that demands three special definitions that
the readers don't know, anyway. 

My point is that, if attention-demanding words of differing intensity
are considered necessary, how can they be chosen, other than the way
they are at present?

Of course, you may deny that differing intensity is necessary, so that
only one word is required, but I am not sure that there would be a lot
of support for that.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Eat mink and be dreary!

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Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-13 Thread John Woodgate

I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in
20030122.raa03...@epgc196.sdd.hp.com) about '[Fwd: User Warning
Signal Words]', on Mon, 12 Nov 2001:

I feel the authors of these definitions neither consulted
a dictionary nor the users of warnings.  

I'm sure that you are right, but what is the alternative to using
existing words but with special definitions that make their meanings
more precise? If you solve this one, you clear up a significant problem
in standards-writing.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Eat mink and be dreary!

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Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-13 Thread Rich Nute




   According to ANSI Z35.4 the following definitions are provided:
   
   
   
   DANGER - Indicates an imminently hazardous situation which, if not
   avoided will result in death or serious injury. This signal word is to
   be limited to the most extreme situations.
   
   WARNING - Indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not
   avoided may result in minor or moderate injury. It may also be used to
   alert against unsafe practices.

   CAUTION - Indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not
   avoided may result in minor or moderate injury. It may also be used to
   alert against unsafe practices. 
   
   Note: DANGER or WARNING should not be considered for property damage
   accidents unless personal injury risk appropriate to these levels is
   also involved. CAUTION is permitted for property-damage-only accidents.

I feel the authors of these definitions neither consulted
a dictionary nor the users of warnings.  According to my 
Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:

warn (verb):  1a: to give notice to beforehand, especially
of danger or evil; 1b: to give admonishing advice to; 1c:
to call to one's attention; 2: to order to go or stay away:
to give a warning.

So, all of the ANSI definitions serve to warn.

warning (noun):  1: the act of warning: the state of being 
warned; 2: something that warns or serves to warn, especially
a notice or bulletin that alerts the public that a tornado
has been reported in the immediate vicinity or that the 
approach of a severe storm is imminent.

So, all of the ANSI definitions are warnings.

danger (noun):  1:  (archaic);  2:  (obsolete); 3:  exposure
or liability to injury, pain, harm, or loss a place where
children could play without danger;  4:  a case or cause of 
danger the dangers of mining.

So, the word danger refers to a thing.  

caution (noun):  1: warning, admonishment; 2: precaution; 3:
prudent forethought to minimize risk; 4: one that astonishes
or commands attention some shoes you see these days are a 
caution.

So, the word caution is defined as a warning.

The so-called signal words are fabrications unrelated to the
definitions of the words.  This is a shame because it dilutes the
power of the words.

In my experience, users do not understand the subtle differences
intended by the signal words.


Best regards,
Rich


Richard Nute
Hewlett-Packard Company
San Diego





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Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-13 Thread Rich Nute



Hi John:


   I feel the authors of these definitions neither consulted
   a dictionary nor the users of warnings.  
   
   I'm sure that you are right, but what is the alternative to using
   existing words but with special definitions that make their meanings
   more precise? If you solve this one, you clear up a significant problem
   in standards-writing.

Well... I guess I didn't make my point.

The ANSI standard defines three classes of signal 
words.  

My point is that the actual signal word is largely 
unimportant to warning (the verb) the user.  The 
signal word calls attention to the warning.  The 
classes of attention-getting simply are not 
recognized by users (and are not consistent with 
dictionary definitions of the words).  

One could just as well use any of the described 
signal words (and maybe some others as already 
suggested here) or various suitable symbols for 
any of the severity classes of warnings.

The degree of detail in specifying classes for
signal words is not warranted.  Delete these 
specific requirements for signal words from the 
standards.  (We are over-standardized in this
case.)  Instead, concentrate on effective content 
of the warning.


Best regards,
Rich





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Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-08 Thread Douglas_Beckwith



From:  Douglas Beckwith@MITEL on 11/08/2001 11:09 AM
Sounds like it should be changed to either Alert, Note or similar. Does
anyone know where this requirement comes from?

Regards

Doug




Robert Macy m...@california.com on 11/07/2001 08:59:35 PM

Please respond to Robert Macy m...@california.com

To:   Douglas Beckwith/Kan/Mitel@Mitel, David Heald davehe...@mediaone.net
cc:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org, ni...@tsd.serco.com

Subject:  Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]




Perhaps, it's time to utilize Alert instead of Warning for Class A
compliance information.

 - Robert -

   Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
   408 286 3985  fx 408 297 9121
   AJM International Electronics Consultants
   619 North First St,   San Jose, CA  95112


-Original Message-
From: douglas_beckw...@mitel.com douglas_beckw...@mitel.com
To: David Heald davehe...@mediaone.net
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org;
ni...@tsd.serco.com ni...@tsd.serco.com
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]





From:  Douglas Beckwith@MITEL on 11/07/2001 04:27 PM
Hi All,
If I may submit my two Canadian pesos worth. There is a US miltary handbook
on
technical writing that discusses the defintion of these words and how they
should be used. Can't remember what it is off hand, but I will look it up
and
post it. These are the definitions that we use in our documentation. Here
is a
brief summary.

CAUTION - Potential damage to the equipment, e.g. ESD or static
WARNING - Potential minor injury or harm to the the user/maintainer. e.g
sharp
edges, corners etc
DANGER - Potential major injury or death of the user/maintainer, e.g.
exposed
High voltage terminals.

That being said, I have seen so many misuses and applications of these
terms
that deviate from the definitions, for example in the UK you are required
to put
an EMC Class A warning note in the documentation. In that case, I don't
think
that Class A emissions from an unintentional radiator are harmful, but that
is
another debate.

Regards

Doug Beckwith
Mitel Networks





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Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-08 Thread Robert Macy

Perhaps, it's time to utilize Alert instead of Warning for Class A
compliance information.

 - Robert -

   Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
   408 286 3985  fx 408 297 9121
   AJM International Electronics Consultants
   619 North First St,   San Jose, CA  95112


-Original Message-
From: douglas_beckw...@mitel.com douglas_beckw...@mitel.com
To: David Heald davehe...@mediaone.net
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org;
ni...@tsd.serco.com ni...@tsd.serco.com
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]





From:  Douglas Beckwith@MITEL on 11/07/2001 04:27 PM
Hi All,
If I may submit my two Canadian pesos worth. There is a US miltary handbook
on
technical writing that discusses the defintion of these words and how they
should be used. Can't remember what it is off hand, but I will look it up
and
post it. These are the definitions that we use in our documentation. Here
is a
brief summary.

CAUTION - Potential damage to the equipment, e.g. ESD or static
WARNING - Potential minor injury or harm to the the user/maintainer. e.g
sharp
edges, corners etc
DANGER - Potential major injury or death of the user/maintainer, e.g.
exposed
High voltage terminals.

That being said, I have seen so many misuses and applications of these
terms
that deviate from the definitions, for example in the UK you are required
to put
an EMC Class A warning note in the documentation. In that case, I don't
think
that Class A emissions from an unintentional radiator are harmful, but that
is
another debate.

Regards

Doug Beckwith
Mitel Networks





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Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-08 Thread John Woodgate

I read in !emc-pstc that douglas_beckw...@mitel.com wrote (in
85256afd.00759dd5...@kanmta01.software.mitel.com) about '[Fwd: User
Warning Signal Words]', on Wed, 7 Nov 2001:
for example in the UK you are required to put
an EMC Class A warning note in the documentation. 

This is nothing specific to the UK, if you are referring to EN55022.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Eat mink and be dreary!

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Re: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-07 Thread Douglas_Beckwith



From:  Douglas Beckwith@MITEL on 11/07/2001 04:27 PM
Hi All,
If I may submit my two Canadian pesos worth. There is a US miltary handbook on
technical writing that discusses the defintion of these words and how they
should be used. Can't remember what it is off hand, but I will look it up and
post it. These are the definitions that we use in our documentation. Here is a
brief summary.

CAUTION - Potential damage to the equipment, e.g. ESD or static
WARNING - Potential minor injury or harm to the the user/maintainer. e.g sharp
edges, corners etc
DANGER - Potential major injury or death of the user/maintainer, e.g. exposed
High voltage terminals.

That being said, I have seen so many misuses and applications of these terms
that deviate from the definitions, for example in the UK you are required to put
an EMC Class A warning note in the documentation. In that case, I don't think
that Class A emissions from an unintentional radiator are harmful, but that is
another debate.

Regards

Doug Beckwith
Mitel Networks



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RE: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-07 Thread Momcilovic, Nick

The standard which defines these signal words in the US is ANSI Z535.4
(1998) - Product safety signs and labels.  Here is the excerpt from that
part of the standard:

4.13.1  DANGER:  Indicates an imminently hazardous situation which, if not
avoided, will result in death or serious injury.  This signal word is to be
limited to the most extreme situations.

4.13.2  WARNING:  Indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not
avoided, could result in death or serious injury.

4.13.3  CAUTION:  Indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not
avoided, may result in minor or moderate injury.  It may also be used to
alert against unsafe practices.

NOTE - DANGER or WARNING should not be considered for property damage
accidents unless personal injury risk appropriate to these levels is also
involved.  CAUTION is permitted for property-damage-only accidents.  The
safety alert symbol should not be used to alert persons to
property-damage-only accidents.

As far as international goes (IEC), it is my experience and after looking
through the IEC dictionary, that only the term Warning is used.  Keep in
mind that there is a major push in many non-US countries (i.e., EU) to use
symbology instead of text.

If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know.

Sincerely,

Nick Momcilovic
Product Safety Coordinator

QTI
N64W23110 Main Street
Sussex, WI 53089-5301
USA

Phone:  +1-414-566-7915
Fax:  +1-414-566-9576
mailto:nick.momcilo...@qtiworld.com
http://www.qtiworld.com


-Original Message-
From: David Heald [mailto:davehe...@mediaone.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 12:02 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Cc: ni...@tsd.serco.com
Subject: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]



Forwarded for Nick Martin.  Please 'Reply All' and/or CC:
ni...@tsd.serco.com when replying.
Dave Heald
EMC-PSTC Admin

 Original Message 
Subject: User Warning Signal Words
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 13:33:48 +
From: Nick Martin ni...@tsd.serco.com
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org

Hi List

Can anyone help with the following regarding warnings to users and
signal words

User warnings normally use one of three signal words CAUTION, WARNING,
DANGER. I believe that each of these increases the severity of the
warning. Can anyone define any specific criteria for when a caution
becomes a warning and ideally point to an IEC or other specification
that provides guidelines on the use of these words? Or is my belief
incorrect and the words are inter-changeable?

thanks in advance for any answers

Nick Martin
Serco Test Systems

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RE: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-07 Thread Michael Mertinooke


For a good summary of UL and International label design
rules, go to 
http://www.hazcomsys.com/domes.html


DANGER indicates an imminently hazardous situation which, 
if not avoided, will result in death or serious injury. This signal 
word is to be limited to the most extreme situations.

WARNING indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, 
if not avoided, could result in death or serious injury.

CAUTION indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, 
if not avoided, may result in minor or moderate injury. It may 
also be used to alert against unsafe practices.

ANSI Z535.4 Section 4

See ya.
Mike Mertinooke



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RE: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-07 Thread Rick Busche

Oops, my mistake

WARNING should read as follows:

Indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not avoided,
could result in death or serious injury.

The major difference between Danger and Warning is the change from WILL
to COULD.

-Original Message-
From: Rick Busche 
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:31 AM
To: 'David Heald'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Cc: ni...@tsd.serco.com
Subject: RE: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]


Nick

According to ANSI Z35.4 the following definitions are provided:



DANGER - Indicates an imminently hazardous situation which, if not
avoided will result in death or serious injury. This signal word is to
be limited to the most extreme situations.

WARNING - Indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not
avoided may result in minor or moderate injury. It may also be used to
alert against unsafe practices.
 
CAUTION - Indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not
avoided may result in minor or moderate injury. It may also be used to
alert against unsafe practices. 

Note: DANGER or WARNING should not be considered for property damage
accidents unless personal injury risk appropriate to these levels is
also involved. CAUTION is permitted for property-damage-only accidents.

Rick Busche
Evans  Sutherland
rbus...@es.com

-

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RE: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-07 Thread Rick Busche

Nick

According to ANSI Z35.4 the following definitions are provided:



DANGER - Indicates an imminently hazardous situation which, if not
avoided will result in death or serious injury. This signal word is to
be limited to the most extreme situations.

WARNING - Indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not
avoided may result in minor or moderate injury. It may also be used to
alert against unsafe practices.
 
CAUTION - Indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not
avoided may result in minor or moderate injury. It may also be used to
alert against unsafe practices. 

Note: DANGER or WARNING should not be considered for property damage
accidents unless personal injury risk appropriate to these levels is
also involved. CAUTION is permitted for property-damage-only accidents.

Rick Busche
Evans  Sutherland
rbus...@es.com

-Original Message-
From: David Heald [mailto:davehe...@mediaone.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:02 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Cc: ni...@tsd.serco.com
Subject: [Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]



Forwarded for Nick Martin.  Please 'Reply All' and/or CC:
ni...@tsd.serco.com when replying.
Dave Heald
EMC-PSTC Admin

 Original Message 
Subject: User Warning Signal Words
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 13:33:48 +
From: Nick Martin ni...@tsd.serco.com
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org

Hi List

Can anyone help with the following regarding warnings to users and
signal words

User warnings normally use one of three signal words CAUTION, WARNING,
DANGER. I believe that each of these increases the severity of the
warning. Can anyone define any specific criteria for when a caution
becomes a warning and ideally point to an IEC or other specification
that provides guidelines on the use of these words? Or is my belief
incorrect and the words are inter-changeable?

thanks in advance for any answers

Nick Martin
Serco Test Systems

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[Fwd: User Warning Signal Words]

2001-11-07 Thread David Heald

Forwarded for Nick Martin.  Please 'Reply All' and/or CC:
ni...@tsd.serco.com when replying.
Dave Heald
EMC-PSTC Admin

 Original Message 
Subject: User Warning Signal Words
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 13:33:48 +
From: Nick Martin ni...@tsd.serco.com
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org

Hi List

Can anyone help with the following regarding warnings to users and
signal words

User warnings normally use one of three signal words CAUTION, WARNING,
DANGER. I believe that each of these increases the severity of the
warning. Can anyone define any specific criteria for when a caution
becomes a warning and ideally point to an IEC or other specification
that provides guidelines on the use of these words? Or is my belief
incorrect and the words are inter-changeable?

thanks in advance for any answers

Nick Martin
Serco Test Systems

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