subject:"\[PSES\] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non\-industrial for EMC testing purposes"

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-20 Thread john Allen

Taking John W’s point about the “real difference” between Europe and the 
Americas, one additional and practical issue should be remembered: in the 
former region the  residential and “industrial” locations (in the broadest 
sense of the word) are often much more closely co-sited than in the latter. 
Therefore the likelihood of interference to equipment in residential premises 
is potentially much higher than in the latter.

 

On the point about the lack of a requirement for Warning notices to European 
customers of Class A equipment, I not at all sure it would make much real 
difference if these were required because most customers would not have any 
idea of what the potential consequences to adjacent Class B equipment could be 
– if most of them ever even read them. 

 

It is only likely to be “high end” purchasers of equipment for large 
developments who (hopefully!) realise their obligations under the EMCD to 
ensure compliance for the complete installation equipment on and adjacent to 
their properties because, again, most SME’s have little real concept of EMC/EMI 
issues and potential problems. Even when they do, it is probably only when 
they, or their neighbours, experience EMI/EMC issues after the equipment is 
brought into service, and they rarely then know what to do about it.

 

Again, IMHO, the solution lies with the suppliers to “risk assess” where their 
equipment is likely to be located and then to ensure that they provide products 
which have the appropriate EMC characteristics for such locations.

 

John  E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 19 October 2016 08:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

 

I'm not unsure. Class A is for heavy industry, powered from MV or higher, with 
no broadcast receivers likely within 30 m.

 

The real difference between Europe and the Americas is that in Europe, there is 
a vain attempt to prohibit the use of Class A devices out of industrial areas, 
whereas in the Americas it is recognized that this can (fairly rarely) occur 
and requires the *user* to be warned accordingly.

 

The attempt to prohibit is vain because the *user* is not addressed by the 
legislation, and unless actual interference occurs, the transgression passes 
unnoticed. The 'prohibition' also results in no requirement for warning notices 
to the user – a 'shot in foot' result.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only

 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England

 

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

 

From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

 

Thanks all – at least I am not the only one unsure. 

 

I am trying to establish a set of criteria that I can ask our engineers and 
marketers that will determine the classification. A decision tree, if you will. 
 This arose from a device that met the less stringent criteria, but not the 
more stringent and then what to do. To prevent the need to debate this topic 
over and over, I was hoping to establish a go forward approach.  Ideally, that 
approach would be “design for both industrial AND non-industrial and be done 
with it.” However, other factors are at play than just my druthers.

 

-Jamison

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 12:44 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

 

For Europe, the sources are the Generic standards, which are substantially 
consistent with CISPR 11.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only

 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_=DQMFaQ=clRTYxLjfWTYQkksq4Trqw=SuXR4v_cWDGps50Ob7OgG3eGvjdtolb5h84QBM8NxmY=YBc-OAqaIXpaBu7LDEilUSP7k5HwjSK9Dpuedr-cf0o=Tw7R0rvcEmoCGo36ftzkzv1jvoR_Bk-evzNbxvU8NuM=>
 www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

 

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

 

From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 5:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

 

My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):

 

5.3 Division into classes

Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
than domestic and
those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
buildings used
for domestic purposes.

 

Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.

Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-19 Thread Doug Nix

Interesting.

In North America, it’s not uncommon to see multi-unit industrial buildings 
where the supply is shared, so this would be Class A under EN 55011 as there is 
no domestic establishments sharing the supply, but reasonably could be called 
as RCLI I think, despite that. 

We also see lots of medium and large plants that are single tenant buildings 
that have their own MV supply, with a local substation that supplies LV to the 
loads in that building. All one user. I would class that as an industrial 
building, and call it Class A.

I think I’ll skip the read through CISPR 16-3, but thanks for the reference. :-)

Doug
 
> On 19-Oct-16, at 14:49, John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, such a farm would be RCLI in Europe. I don't know what the maximum 
> current/power is normally permitted at LV in US, but in Europe the normal 
> limit is 75 A/phase, but the utility may permit a higher current if the 
> network can cope. So even quite a big machine would not force the need for an 
> MV supply. Even so, in Britain, there are 3.3 kV rural networks for large 
> farms and infrastructure such as water pumping stations.
>  
> I don't know where the 30 m. 10 m and 3 m separation distances are 
> documented, maybe in the huge CISPR 16-3 (a good read in the long winter 
> evenings in Alaska).
>  
> I didn't 'lump', but in most European countries (I mentioned France as an 
> exception) all LV distribution has both residential and non-residential 
> loads. Sharing is the norm, but there are exceptions, of course.
>  
> With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and 
> Associates Rayleigh England
>  
> Sylvae in aeternum manent.
>  
> From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org] 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 6:29 PM
> To: John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com>
> Cc: IEEE EMC PSTC <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial 
> for EMC testing purposes
>  
> John,
>  
> You bring up a good point, in that we see rural properties in North America 
> where a single farm is fed with it’s own transformer from an MV line at say 
> 4.8 kV to LV, and that farm is the only load on the the transformer. Is that 
> an RCLI situation? IMO yes, because the family lives there (meets the 
> domestic establishments criteria) and it also meets your criteria of radio/tv 
> receivers within 30 m. They may employ equipment in their operation that 
> might reasonably be considered industrial in nature due to scale. 
>  
> Can you tell me, what is origin for the 30 m tv/radio criteria you have 
> mentioned on several occasions? Is there a specific document?
>  
> I have to say that I don’t believe that you can lump everything that is 
> supplied at LV into RCLI, because that position is inconsistent with the 
> class definitions in EN 55011, which makes the criterion the sharing of the 
> supply with domestic establishments.
>  
> Doug Nix
> d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org>
> +1 (519) 729-5704
>  
>> On 19-Oct-16, at 12:23, John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com 
>> <mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>> wrote:
>>  
>> 1. Yes.
>>  
>> 2. 
>> Original statement is true only if the substation output is at MV or higher. 
>> If it is at LV, the location is strictly RCLI (residential, commercial and 
>> light industrial). 
>>  
>> a) In most countries in Europe, yes, but in France there are some separate 
>> industrial LV networks. You have to look at the location and decide whether 
>> there are likely to be broadcast radio or TV receivers within 30 m. If so, 
>> it's RCLI.
>>  
>> b) Yes.
>>  
>> There is no way to categorize. I know of a single dwelling house with its 
>> own LV transformer. They are not very rare in rural parts.
>>  
>> But please bear in mind that it's the *user* who decides where to use a 
>> product and the manufacturer has no control. Obviously, the most flexible 
>> solution is the most costly, Class B emissions and Class A immunity.
>>  
>> With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
>> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and 
>> Associates Rayleigh England
>>  
>> Sylvae in aeternum manent.
>>  
>> From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com 
>> <mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com>] 
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:35 PM
>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org>
>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial 
>

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-19 Thread Paasche, Dieter

If this helps, some time ago I heard about how the testing of class B  - 3m 
distance was determined for radiated emission. It looks that 3m would be a 
distance that two electronic devices could be when located in an apartment 
house. For example the TV from one guy to the TV of his neighbor living wall to 
wall.

That been said, if the your equipment can be close by 3m from an apartment 
house than it would be a residential and therefore have to meet residential 
requirements. The rest I would just called it not residential and therefore a 
class A product  For most standards and mainly emissions it would not matter if 
it is industrial, heavy industrial or light industrial because they all have to 
comply with class A limits. Immunity you might see some differences.

As you mentioned there are many people that manufacture equipment in different 
environments complying with class B residential limits for emissions and use 
the stricter levels for immunity. It is very common practice.


Sincerely,

Dieter Paasche

From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 3:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

Thanks all – at least I am not the only one unsure.

I am trying to establish a set of criteria that I can ask our engineers and 
marketers that will determine the classification. A decision tree, if you will. 
 This arose from a device that met the less stringent criteria, but not the 
more stringent and then what to do. To prevent the need to debate this topic 
over and over, I was hoping to establish a go forward approach.  Ideally, that 
approach would be “design for both industrial AND non-industrial and be done 
with it.” However, other factors are at play than just my druthers.

-Jamison

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 12:44 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

For Europe, the sources are the Generic standards, which are substantially 
consistent with CISPR 11.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_=DQMFaQ=clRTYxLjfWTYQkksq4Trqw=SuXR4v_cWDGps50Ob7OgG3eGvjdtolb5h84QBM8NxmY=YBc-OAqaIXpaBu7LDEilUSP7k5HwjSK9Dpuedr-cf0o=Tw7R0rvcEmoCGo36ftzkzv1jvoR_Bk-evzNbxvU8NuM=>
 J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 5:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):

5.3 Division into classes
Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
than domestic and
those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
buildings used
for domestic purposes.

Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.
Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. In 
the
documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention to 
the fact that
there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic compatibility 
in other
environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances.
Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments and 
in
establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which 
supplies
buildings used for domestic purposes.
Class B equipment shall meet class B limits.

The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If the 
equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic establishments, 
then it must meet Class B requirements IMO.

If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the power 
supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then Class A 
performance is acceptable.

The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic establishments. 
If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no dwellings 
supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and therefore Class 
A.

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org<mailto:d...@ieee.org>
+1 (519) 729-5704

On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison 
<jamison.kor...@ecolab.com<mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com>> wrote:

Good Morning,

What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which a 
device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.

It ranges from a transformer isolate

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-19 Thread Doug Nix

John,

You bring up a good point, in that we see rural properties in North America 
where a single farm is fed with it’s own transformer from an MV line at say 4.8 
kV to LV, and that farm is the only load on the the transformer. Is that an 
RCLI situation? IMO yes, because the family lives there (meets the domestic 
establishments criteria) and it also meets your criteria of radio/tv receivers 
within 30 m. They may employ equipment in their operation that might reasonably 
be considered industrial in nature due to scale. 

Can you tell me, what is origin for the 30 m tv/radio criteria you have 
mentioned on several occasions? Is there a specific document?

I have to say that I don’t believe that you can lump everything that is 
supplied at LV into RCLI, because that position is inconsistent with the class 
definitions in EN 55011, which makes the criterion the sharing of the supply 
with domestic establishments.

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org
+1 (519) 729-5704

> On 19-Oct-16, at 12:23, John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> 
> 1. Yes.
>  
> 2. 
> Original statement is true only if the substation output is at MV or higher. 
> If it is at LV, the location is strictly RCLI (residential, commercial and 
> light industrial). 
>  
> a) In most countries in Europe, yes, but in France there are some separate 
> industrial LV networks. You have to look at the location and decide whether 
> there are likely to be broadcast radio or TV receivers within 30 m. If so, 
> it's RCLI.
>  
> b) Yes.
>  
> There is no way to categorize. I know of a single dwelling house with its own 
> LV transformer. They are not very rare in rural parts.
>  
> But please bear in mind that it's the *user* who decides where to use a 
> product and the manufacturer has no control. Obviously, the most flexible 
> solution is the most costly, Class B emissions and Class A immunity.
>  
> With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and 
> Associates Rayleigh England
>  
> Sylvae in aeternum manent.
>  
> From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:35 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial 
> for EMC testing purposes
>  
> Doug- Thanks very much for this.
>  
> Within this group, I often get responses before the initial email, so I 
> missed this one the first time through. Two questions:
>  
> 1.  Is it safe to say that the same definitions hold true for immunity as 
> well?
> 2.  Would the following statements be true as well?
> Original Statement: If a location is fed from its own substation and there 
> are no dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, 
> and therefore Class A.
> a.  If a location is not fed from its own substation, but there are no 
> dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s not an industrial location, and 
> therefore Class B.
> b.  If a location is fed from its own substation and there are dwellings 
> supplied from that substation, it’s not an industrial location, and therefore 
> Class B.
>  
> Without knowing the details of every installation, is there a relatively 
> simple way of categorizing types of buildings that would be fed by its own 
> substation, for example?
>  
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Jamison
>  
> From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org>] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 11:25 AM
> To: Kortas, Jamison <jamison.kor...@ecolab.com 
> <mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com>>
> Cc: IEEE EMC PSTC <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial 
> for EMC testing purposes
>  
> My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
> CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):
>  
>> 5.3 Division into classes
>> Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
>> than domestic and
>> those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which 
>> supplies buildings used
>> for domestic purposes.
>>  
>> Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.
>> 
>> Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. 
>> In the
>> documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention 
>> to the fact that
>> there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic 
>> compatibility in other
>> environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances.
>> 
>&g

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-19 Thread John Woodgate

1. Yes.
 
2. 
Original statement is true only if the substation output is at MV or higher. If 
it is at LV, the location is strictly RCLI (residential, commercial and light 
industrial). 
 
a) In most countries in Europe, yes, but in France there are some separate 
industrial LV networks. You have to look at the location and decide whether 
there are likely to be broadcast radio or TV receivers within 30 m. If so, it's 
RCLI.
 
b) Yes.
 
There is no way to categorize. I know of a single dwelling house with its own 
LV transformer. They are not very rare in rural parts.
 
But please bear in mind that it's the *user* who decides where to use a product 
and the manufacturer has no control. Obviously, the most flexible solution is 
the most costly, Class B emissions and Class A immunity.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:35 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes
 
Doug- Thanks very much for this.
 
Within this group, I often get responses before the initial email, so I missed 
this one the first time through. Two questions:
 
1.  Is it safe to say that the same definitions hold true for immunity as 
well?
2.  Would the following statements be true as well?
Original Statement: If a location is fed from its own substation and there are 
no dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and 
therefore Class A.
a.  If a location is not fed from its own substation, but there are no 
dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s not an industrial location, and 
therefore Class B.
b.  If a location is fed from its own substation and there are dwellings 
supplied from that substation, it’s not an industrial location, and therefore 
Class B.
 
Without knowing the details of every installation, is there a relatively simple 
way of categorizing types of buildings that would be fed by its own substation, 
for example?
 
 
Thanks,
 
Jamison
 
From: Doug Nix [ <mailto:d...@ieee.org> mailto:d...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 11:25 AM
To: Kortas, Jamison < <mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com> 
jamison.kor...@ecolab.com>
Cc: IEEE EMC PSTC < <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes
 
My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):
 
5.3 Division into classes
Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
than domestic and
those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
buildings used
for domestic purposes.
 
Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.
Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. In 
the
documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention to 
the fact that
there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic compatibility 
in other
environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances.
Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments and 
in
establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which 
supplies
buildings used for domestic purposes.
Class B equipment shall meet class B limits.

The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If the 
equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic establishments, 
then it must meet Class B requirements IMO.
 
If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the power 
supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then Class A 
performance is acceptable.
 
The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic establishments. 
If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no dwellings 
supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and therefore Class 
A.
 
Doug Nix
 <mailto:d...@ieee.org> d...@ieee.org
+1 (519) 729-5704
 
On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison < <mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com> 
jamison.kor...@ecolab.com> wrote:
 
Good Morning,
 
What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which a 
device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.
 
It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = 
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).
 
I am familiar with some of the definiti

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-19 Thread Doug Nix

Jamison,

IMO, it’s the sharing of the supply with domestic establishments that is the 
key to the application of the definition of the classes. Clearly, a large 
industrial facility could be fed at MV and have MV loads as well as LV loads, 
so the question of whether there is a substation or not might be moot. What we 
know for certain is that there are no domestic establishments that are fed at 
MV. :-)

If you have a look at the scope of EN 61000-6-2, Electromagnetic compatibility 
(EMC) – Part 6-2: Generic standards-Immunity for industrial environments, 
you’ll find that they call out ISM equipment based on Class A as defined in EN 
55011, so while the classes are not explicitly part of the Generic standard, 
they are referenced.

Look for the sharing of the supply as the criterion. If it’s shared with 
domestic users, it’s Class B as far as I’m concerned.

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org
+1 (519) 729-5704

> On 19-Oct-16, at 10:34, Kortas, Jamison <jamison.kor...@ecolab.com> wrote:
> 
> Doug- Thanks very much for this.
>  
> Within this group, I often get responses before the initial email, so I 
> missed this one the first time through. Two questions:
>  
> 1.   Is it safe to say that the same definitions hold true for immunity 
> as well?
> 2.   Would the following statements be true as well?
> Original Statement: If a location is fed from its own substation and there 
> are no dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, 
> and therefore Class A.
> a.   If a location is not fed from its own substation, but there are no 
> dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s not an industrial location, and 
> thereforeClass B.
> b.   If a location is fed from its own substation and there are dwellings 
> supplied from that substation, it’s not an industrial location, and therefore 
> Class B.
>  
> Without knowing the details of every installation, is there a relatively 
> simple way of categorizing types of buildings that would be fed by its own 
> substation, for example?
>  
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Jamison
>  
> From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 11:25 AM
> To: Kortas, Jamison <jamison.kor...@ecolab.com>
> Cc: IEEE EMC PSTC <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial 
> for EMC testing purposes
>  
> My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
> CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):
>  
> 5.3 Division into classes
> Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
> than domestic and
> those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
> buildings used
> for domestic purposes.
>  
> Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.
> 
> Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. 
> In the
> documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention 
> to the fact that
> there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic compatibility 
> in other
> environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances.
> 
> Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments 
> and in
> establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which 
> supplies
> buildings used for domestic purposes.
> 
> Class B equipment shall meet class B limits.
> 
> The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If 
> the equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic 
> establishments, then it must meet Class B requirements IMO.
>  
> If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the 
> power supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then 
> Class A performance is acceptable.
>  
> The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic 
> establishments. If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no 
> dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and 
> therefore Class A.
>  
> Doug Nix
> d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org>
> +1 (519) 729-5704
>  
> On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison <jamison.kor...@ecolab.com 
> <mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com>> wrote:
>  
> Good Morning,
>  
> What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which 
> a device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
> have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.
>  
> It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
> products in the

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-19 Thread Kortas, Jamison

Doug- Thanks very much for this.

Within this group, I often get responses before the initial email, so I missed 
this one the first time through. Two questions:


1.   Is it safe to say that the same definitions hold true for immunity as 
well?

2.   Would the following statements be true as well?

Original Statement: If a location is fed from its own substation and there are 
no dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and 
therefore Class A.

a.   If a location is not fed from its own substation, but there are no 
dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s not an industrial location, and 
therefore Class B.

b.   If a location is fed from its own substation and there are dwellings 
supplied from that substation, it’s not an industrial location, and therefore 
Class B.

Without knowing the details of every installation, is there a relatively simple 
way of categorizing types of buildings that would be fed by its own substation, 
for example?


Thanks,

Jamison

From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 11:25 AM
To: Kortas, Jamison <jamison.kor...@ecolab.com>
Cc: IEEE EMC PSTC <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):

5.3 Division into classes
Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
than domestic and
those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
buildings used
for domestic purposes.

Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.
Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. In 
the
documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention to 
the fact that
there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic compatibility 
in other
environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances.
Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments and 
in
establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which 
supplies
buildings used for domestic purposes.
Class B equipment shall meet class B limits.

The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If the 
equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic establishments, 
then it must meet Class B requirements IMO.

If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the power 
supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then Class A 
performance is acceptable.

The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic establishments. 
If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no dwellings 
supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and therefore Class 
A.

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org<mailto:d...@ieee.org>
+1 (519) 729-5704

On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison 
<jamison.kor...@ecolab.com<mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com>> wrote:

Good Morning,

What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which a 
device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.

It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = 
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).

I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure that 
those are what are typically followed in practice.

I appreciate any thoughts.

Thank you.


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
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Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-19 Thread John Woodgate

Ah, yes, I forgot about the new 18.2.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

-Original Message-
From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen [mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 9:04 AM
To: John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

>The 'prohibition' also results in no requirement for warning notices to the 
>user – a 'shot in foot' result.

Article 18.2 2014/30/EC requires such a warning on the EUT itself if meant for 
Industrial

The EU is rather undecided -as John says- on what is "Industrial", or is it 
"Heavy Industrial"
and the generic standard for "heavy Industrial" refers to " Industrial" 
environment only, and even worse refers to the definition in CISPR11 for 
Industrial, a standard it is supposed to *guide* , instead to refer to.
But of course EN 61000-6-2 is written by Cenelec , not by the European 
Commission. A smart way of circular reasoning.


Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen
Approvals manager



+ ce marking of electrical/electronic equipment Independent Consultancy 
+ Services Compliance Testing and Design for CE marking
 according to EC-directives:
- Electro Magnetic Compatibility 2004/108/EC
- Electrical Safety 2006/95/EC
- Medical Devices 93/42/EC
- Radio & Telecommunication Terminal Equipment 99/5/EC
+ Improvement of Product Quality and Reliability testing Education

Web:www.cetest.nl (English) 
Phone :  +31 10 415 24 26
---
This e-mail and any attachments thereto may contain information that is 
confidential and/or protected by intellectual property rights and are intended 
for the sole use of the recipient(s) named above. 
Any use of the information contained herein (including, but not limited to, 
total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution in any form) by 
persons other than the designated
recipient(s) is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please 
notify the sender either by telephone or by e-mail and delete the material from 
any computer. 
Thank you for your co-operation.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Wednesday 19 October 2016 09:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

I'm not unsure. Class A is for heavy industry, powered from MV or higher, with 
no broadcast receivers likely within 30 m.

The real difference between Europe and the Americas is that in Europe, there is 
a vain attempt to prohibit the use of Class A devices out of industrial areas, 
whereas in the Americas it is recognized that this can (fairly rarely) occur 
and requires the *user* to be warned accordingly.

The attempt to prohibit is vain because the *user* is not addressed by the 
legislation, and unless actual interference occurs, the transgression passes 
unnoticed. The 'prohibition' also results in no requirement for warning notices 
to the user – a 'shot in foot' result.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M 
Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

Thanks all – at least I am not the only one unsure. 

I am trying to establish a set of criteria that I can ask our engineers and 
marketers that will determine the classification. A decision tree, if you will. 
 This arose from a device that met the less stringent criteria, but not the 
more stringent and then what to do. To prevent the need to debate this topic 
over and over, I was hoping to establish a go forward approach.  Ideally, that 
approach would be “design for both industrial AND non-industrial and be done 
with it.” However, other factors are at play than just my druthers.

-Jamison

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 12:44 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

For Europe, the sources are the Generic standards, which are substantially 
consistent with CISPR 11.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M 
Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 5:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-19 Thread ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen

>The 'prohibition' also results in no requirement for warning notices to the 
>user – a 'shot in foot' result.

Article 18.2 2014/30/EC requires such a warning on the EUT itself if meant for 
Industrial

The EU is rather undecided -as John says- on what is "Industrial", or is it 
"Heavy Industrial"
and the generic standard for "heavy Industrial" refers to " Industrial" 
environment only, and even worse refers to the definition in CISPR11 for 
Industrial, a standard it is supposed to *guide* , instead to refer to.
But of course EN 61000-6-2 is written by Cenelec , not by the European 
Commission. A smart way of circular reasoning.


Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen
Approvals manager



+ ce marking of electrical/electronic equipment
+ Independent Consultancy Services
+ Compliance Testing and Design for CE marking
 according to EC-directives:
    - Electro Magnetic Compatibility 2004/108/EC
    - Electrical Safety 2006/95/EC
    - Medical Devices 93/42/EC
    - Radio & Telecommunication Terminal Equipment 99/5/EC
+ Improvement of Product Quality and Reliability testing
+ Education

Web:    www.cetest.nl (English) 
Phone :  +31 10 415 24 26
---
This e-mail and any attachments thereto may contain information 
that is confidential and/or protected by intellectual property rights 
and are intended for the sole use of the recipient(s) named above. 
Any use of the information contained herein (including, but not 
limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or 
distribution in any form) by persons other than the designated 
recipient(s) is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, 
please notify the sender either by telephone or by e-mail and 
delete the material from any computer. 
Thank you for your co-operation.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Wednesday 19 October 2016 09:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

I'm not unsure. Class A is for heavy industry, powered from MV or higher, with 
no broadcast receivers likely within 30 m.

The real difference between Europe and the Americas is that in Europe, there is 
a vain attempt to prohibit the use of Class A devices out of industrial areas, 
whereas in the Americas it is recognized that this can (fairly rarely) occur 
and requires the *user* to be warned accordingly.

The attempt to prohibit is vain because the *user* is not addressed by the 
legislation, and unless actual interference occurs, the transgression passes 
unnoticed. The 'prohibition' also results in no requirement for warning notices 
to the user – a 'shot in foot' result.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

Thanks all – at least I am not the only one unsure. 

I am trying to establish a set of criteria that I can ask our engineers and 
marketers that will determine the classification. A decision tree, if you will. 
 This arose from a device that met the less stringent criteria, but not the 
more stringent and then what to do. To prevent the need to debate this topic 
over and over, I was hoping to establish a go forward approach.  Ideally, that 
approach would be “design for both industrial AND non-industrial and be done 
with it.” However, other factors are at play than just my druthers.

-Jamison

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 12:44 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

For Europe, the sources are the Generic standards, which are substantially 
consistent with CISPR 11.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 5:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):

5.3 Division into classes
Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
than domestic and
those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
buildings used
for domestic purposes.

Class A equipment shall meet class A limi

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-19 Thread John Woodgate

I'm not unsure. Class A is for heavy industry, powered from MV or higher, with 
no broadcast receivers likely within 30 m.
 
The real difference between Europe and the Americas is that in Europe, there is 
a vain attempt to prohibit the use of Class A devices out of industrial areas, 
whereas in the Americas it is recognized that this can (fairly rarely) occur 
and requires the *user* to be warned accordingly.
 
The attempt to prohibit is vain because the *user* is not addressed by the 
legislation, and unless actual interference occurs, the transgression passes 
unnoticed. The 'prohibition' also results in no requirement for warning notices 
to the user – a 'shot in foot' result.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes
 
Thanks all – at least I am not the only one unsure. 
 
I am trying to establish a set of criteria that I can ask our engineers and 
marketers that will determine the classification. A decision tree, if you will. 
 This arose from a device that met the less stringent criteria, but not the 
more stringent and then what to do. To prevent the need to debate this topic 
over and over, I was hoping to establish a go forward approach.  Ideally, that 
approach would be “design for both industrial AND non-industrial and be done 
with it.” However, other factors are at play than just my druthers.
 
-Jamison
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 12:44 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes
 
For Europe, the sources are the Generic standards, which are substantially 
consistent with CISPR 11.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_=DQMFaQ=clRTYxLjfWTYQkksq4Trqw=SuXR4v_cWDGps50Ob7OgG3eGvjdtolb5h84QBM8NxmY=YBc-OAqaIXpaBu7LDEilUSP7k5HwjSK9Dpuedr-cf0o=Tw7R0rvcEmoCGo36ftzkzv1jvoR_Bk-evzNbxvU8NuM=>
 www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 5:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes
 
My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):
 
5.3 Division into classes
Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
than domestic and
those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
buildings used
for domestic purposes.
 
Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.
Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. In 
the
documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention to 
the fact that
there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic compatibility 
in other
environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances.
Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments and 
in
establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which 
supplies
buildings used for domestic purposes.
Class B equipment shall meet class B limits.

The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If the 
equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic establishments, 
then it must meet Class B requirements IMO.
 
If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the power 
supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then Class A 
performance is acceptable.
 
The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic establishments. 
If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no dwellings 
supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and therefore Class 
A.
 
Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org> 
+1 (519) 729-5704
 
On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison <jamison.kor...@ecolab.com 
<mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com> > wrote:
 
Good Morning,
 
What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which a 
device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.
 
It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread Douglas Nix

Gert,

You mention that there is a conflict, but you don't explain what the conflict 
is. Can you tell me how the EC definition varies from the definition I quoted 
from EN 55011?

Sent from my iPhone 
Doug Nix

d...@mac.com
Mobile: (519) 729-5704

> On Oct 18, 2016, at 13:55, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen 
> <g.grem...@cetest.nl> wrote:
> 
> There is an on-going (silent) conflict between the European commission and a
> number of  cenelec and cispr committees, notably those responsible
> for EN 55032 and EN 55011.
> While the EC has expressed their opinion in the generic standards,
> and expressed their desire that all product committees comply with
> the definitions and limit therein, the market (standard committees) does not 
> comply to that,
> and the EC lacks power (or will) to change that.
> Therefore the discrepancy between definitions.
> 
> Note that it’s a rather complex matter as the standards are born as Worldwide 
> standards (CISPR) and are “common modified” to EN versions.
> So CISPR11 (world wide) becomes EN 55011 (Europe harmonised)  without
> changing the “Industrial” definition. 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ing.  Gert Gremmen, BSc
>  
> 
>  
> g.grem...@cetest.nl
> www.cetest.nl
> 
> Kiotoweg 363
> 3047 BG Rotterdam
> T 31(0)104152426
> F 31(0)104154953
>  
>  Before printing, think about the environment.
> 
> 
> 
> Van: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org] 
> Verzonden: dinsdag 18 oktober 2016 18:25
> Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial 
> for EMC testing purposes
> 
> My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
> CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):
> 
> 5.3 Division into classes
> Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
> than domestic and
> those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
> buildings used
> for domestic purposes.
> 
> Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.
> Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. 
> In the
> documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention 
> to the fact that
> there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic compatibility 
> in other
> environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances.
> Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments 
> and in
> establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which 
> supplies
> buildings used for domestic purposes.
> Class B equipment shall meet class B limits.
> 
> The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If 
> the equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic 
> establishments, then it must meet Class B requirements IMO.
> 
> If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the 
> power supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then 
> Class A performance is acceptable.
> 
> The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic 
> establishments. If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no 
> dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and 
> therefore Class A.
> 
> Doug Nix
> d...@ieee.org
> +1 (519) 729-5704
> 
> On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison <jamison.kor...@ecolab.com> wrote:
> 
> Good Morning,
>  
> What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which 
> a device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
> have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.
>  
> It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
> products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = 
> industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).
>  
> I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure that 
> those are what are typically followed in practice.
>  
> I appreciate any thoughts. 
>  
> Thank you.
>  
>  
> -
> 
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> <emc-p...@ieee.org>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
&g

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread Kortas, Jamison

Thanks all – at least I am not the only one unsure.

I am trying to establish a set of criteria that I can ask our engineers and 
marketers that will determine the classification. A decision tree, if you will. 
 This arose from a device that met the less stringent criteria, but not the 
more stringent and then what to do. To prevent the need to debate this topic 
over and over, I was hoping to establish a go forward approach.  Ideally, that 
approach would be “design for both industrial AND non-industrial and be done 
with it.” However, other factors are at play than just my druthers.

-Jamison

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 12:44 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

For Europe, the sources are the Generic standards, which are substantially 
consistent with CISPR 11.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_=DQMFaQ=clRTYxLjfWTYQkksq4Trqw=SuXR4v_cWDGps50Ob7OgG3eGvjdtolb5h84QBM8NxmY=YBc-OAqaIXpaBu7LDEilUSP7k5HwjSK9Dpuedr-cf0o=Tw7R0rvcEmoCGo36ftzkzv1jvoR_Bk-evzNbxvU8NuM=>
 J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 5:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):

5.3 Division into classes
Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
than domestic and
those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
buildings used
for domestic purposes.

Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.
Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. In 
the
documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention to 
the fact that
there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic compatibility 
in other
environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances.
Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments and 
in
establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which 
supplies
buildings used for domestic purposes.
Class B equipment shall meet class B limits.

The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If the 
equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic establishments, 
then it must meet Class B requirements IMO.

If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the power 
supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then Class A 
performance is acceptable.

The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic establishments. 
If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no dwellings 
supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and therefore Class 
A.

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org<mailto:d...@ieee.org>
+1 (519) 729-5704

On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison 
<jamison.kor...@ecolab.com<mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com>> wrote:

Good Morning,

What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which a 
device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.

It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = 
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).

I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure that 
those are what are typically followed in practice.

I appreciate any thoughts.

Thank you.


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
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http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.html=DQMFaQ=clRTYxLjfWTYQkksq4Trqw=SuXR4v_cWDGps50Ob7OgG3eGvjdtolb5h84QBM8NxmY=YBc-OAqaIXpaBu7LDEilUSP7k5HwjSK9Dpuedr-cf0o=MkW9Ifg4EQF3WZo6TxIo8dY18HtvjS3fH5GmE0blETE=>
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Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread John Woodgate

For Europe, the sources are the Generic standards, which are substantially 
consistent with CISPR 11.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 5:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes
 
My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):
 
5.3 Division into classes
Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
than domestic and
those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
buildings used
for domestic purposes.
 
Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.
Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. In 
the
documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention to 
the fact that
there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic compatibility 
in other
environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances.
Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments and 
in
establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which 
supplies
buildings used for domestic purposes.
Class B equipment shall meet class B limits.

The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If the 
equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic establishments, 
then it must meet Class B requirements IMO.
 
If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the power 
supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then Class A 
performance is acceptable.
 
The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic establishments. 
If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no dwellings 
supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and therefore Class 
A.
 
Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org> 
+1 (519) 729-5704
 
On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison <jamison.kor...@ecolab.com 
<mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com> > wrote:
 
Good Morning,
 
What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which a 
device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.
 
It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = 
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).
 
I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure that 
those are what are typically followed in practice.
 
I appreciate any thoughts. 
 
Thank you.
 
 
-



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-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen

There is an on-going (silent) conflict between the European commission and a
number of  cenelec and cispr committees, notably those responsible
for EN 55032 and EN 55011.
While the EC has expressed their opinion in the generic standards,
and expressed their desire that all product committees comply with
the definitions and limit therein, the market (standard committees) does not 
comply to that,
and the EC lacks power (or will) to change that.
Therefore the discrepancy between definitions.

Note that it’s a rather complex matter as the standards are born as Worldwide 
standards (CISPR) and are “common modified” to EN versions.
So CISPR11 (world wide) becomes EN 55011 (Europe harmonised)  without
changing the “Industrial” definition. 


Regards,

Ing.  Gert Gremmen, BSc
 

 
g.grem...@cetest.nl
www.cetest.nl

Kiotoweg 363
3047 BG Rotterdam
T 31(0)104152426
F 31(0)104154953
 
 Before printing, think about the environment.



Van: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org] 
Verzonden: dinsdag 18 oktober 2016 18:25
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial 
for EMC testing purposes

My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):

5.3 Division into classes
Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
than domestic and
those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
buildings used
for domestic purposes.

Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.
Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. In 
the
documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention to 
the fact that
there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic compatibility 
in other
environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances.
Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments and 
in
establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which 
supplies
buildings used for domestic purposes.
Class B equipment shall meet class B limits.

The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If the 
equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic establishments, 
then it must meet Class B requirements IMO.

If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the power 
supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then Class A 
performance is acceptable.

The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic establishments. 
If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no dwellings 
supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and therefore Class 
A.

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org
+1 (519) 729-5704

On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison <jamison.kor...@ecolab.com> wrote:

Good Morning,
 
What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which a 
device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.
 
It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = 
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).
 
I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure that 
those are what are typically followed in practice.
 
I appreciate any thoughts. 
 
Thank you.
 
 
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread John Allen

Jamison

 

The shopping mall example could be a "difficult" situation, but for me that
means that there will be quite a lot of Class A ITE such as servers and the
like (and even a lot of that is now likely to be Class B because that is
what many large end-use customers now specify and expect) in the server
rooms, but probably also a much larger amount of Class B equipment like
counter terminals, PCs (etc.), vending machines, tv's and other consumer
electronics on displays, games arcades (etc.) in the office, shop and public
areas - and then there will also generally be large numbers of essentially
Class B equipments (phones, tablets and the like) being carried and used by
the shopping public, and it would not be "good publicity" for the mall if
the customers kept complaining that their equipment won't  work when they in
the mall or just outside it.

 

Therefore, I would advise that the "heavy stuff" should be Class B for
emissions and Class A for immunity.  OTOH, if the "heavy stuff" is located a
well-defined long distance away from the areas where the more sensitive
stuff is likely to be then you might be able to justify Class A for both.
That might work for bespoke installations where the equipment supplier can
be fairly sure of the exact end-use environment and equipment locations, but
almost certainly not for equipment for general sale where the equipment
supplier has no real idea of what the end-customers' specifying and
installing companies will do with it.

 

John E Allen

W. London, UK

 

From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com] 
Sent: 18 October 2016 16:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes

 

Thank you -

 

In your example of lifts or a/c it would need to comply with the more
restrictive criteria (residential for emissions and industrial for immunity)
even though the location may itself not be powered by low-voltage supply.
The devices I am working with would not be considered fixed installations,
as an elevator would be, so it isn't apples to apples, but disregarding that
difference, any idea?

 

Also, what about a large shopping mall? Or are there different types of
environments within the shopping mall: i.e., mechanical room with boilers,
HVAC, etc. and stores, walkways, etc.?

 

Thanks, 

 

-Jamison

 

From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 10:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes

 

You often get heavy electrical machinery in residential, light commercial
and hospital (etc.) (especially multi-story) premises - think local power
transformers, air-conditioning systems, lifts/elevators, water/sewage
pumping equipment, etc - and that can (and has certainly been seen to)
affect domestic, IT and medical electronic equipment in those premises.

 

It's the end-use environment that is (or should be) the determining factor
in deciding with which category of requirements the EUT must comply.

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 18 October 2016 16:10
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes

 

No, because light industry premises are often very close to residential
premises, get power from the low-voltage supply and broadcast receivers can
be much closer than 30 m (the assumption for emission limit purposes is 10
m, but of course they could be even closer).

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only

www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_
=DQMFAg=clRTYxLjfWTYQkksq4Trqw=SuXR4v_cWDGps50Ob7OgG3eGvjdtolb5h84QBM8Nx
mY=2oeB1yFm6V--H8mjvtzgQ6xeJ8JLy0Wc3IjnPTfH6BY=l525G496siNA_QwQ5lxfDPu6v
xscfAjpp_PeJN5-qcg=>  J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

 

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

 

From: Schmidt, Mark [mailto:markschm...@xrite.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 3:57 PM
To: John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes

 

Hi John,

 

Would this be applicable for Light Industrial equipment as well?

 

Thank you.

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 10:49 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes

 

For Europe, 'industry' means heavy industry - large machines, high-power
electrical installation, not powered from the public low-voltage supply. No
broadcast radio or TV receivers likely to be within 30 metres.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only

www.jmwa.demon.co

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread Kortas, Jamison

Thank you -

In your example of lifts or a/c it would need to comply with the more 
restrictive criteria (residential for emissions and industrial for immunity) 
even though the location may itself not be powered by low-voltage supply. The 
devices I am working with would not be considered fixed installations, as an 
elevator would be, so it isn't apples to apples, but disregarding that 
difference, any idea?

Also, what about a large shopping mall? Or are there different types of 
environments within the shopping mall: i.e., mechanical room with boilers, 
HVAC, etc. and stores, walkways, etc.?

Thanks,

-Jamison

From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 10:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

You often get heavy electrical machinery in residential, light commercial and 
hospital (etc.) (especially multi-story) premises - think local power 
transformers, air-conditioning systems, lifts/elevators, water/sewage pumping 
equipment, etc - and that can (and has certainly been seen to) affect domestic, 
IT and medical electronic equipment in those premises.

It's the end-use environment that is (or should be) the determining factor in 
deciding with which category of requirements the EUT must comply.

John E Allen
W.London, UK

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: 18 October 2016 16:10
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

No, because light industry premises are often very close to residential 
premises, get power from the low-voltage supply and broadcast receivers can be 
much closer than 30 m (the assumption for emission limit purposes is 10 m, but 
of course they could be even closer).

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_=DQMFAg=clRTYxLjfWTYQkksq4Trqw=SuXR4v_cWDGps50Ob7OgG3eGvjdtolb5h84QBM8NxmY=2oeB1yFm6V--H8mjvtzgQ6xeJ8JLy0Wc3IjnPTfH6BY=l525G496siNA_QwQ5lxfDPu6vxscfAjpp_PeJN5-qcg=>
 J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Schmidt, Mark [mailto:markschm...@xrite.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 3:57 PM
To: John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com<mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

Hi John,

Would this be applicable for Light Industrial equipment as well?

Thank you.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 10:49 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

For Europe, 'industry' means heavy industry - large machines, high-power 
electrical installation, not powered from the public low-voltage supply. No 
broadcast radio or TV receivers likely to be within 30 metres.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiEXp8Wa3AN0R9oJL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-gaRnQXk=GjhSKIL3JsS7U0_q6lCXxHNYbr7GFcQHvQHPwZ7r0vM=>
 J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 1:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC 
testing purposes

Good Morning,

What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which a 
device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.

It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = 
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).

I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure that 
those are what are typically followed in practice.

I appreciate any thoughts.

Thank you.


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread Doug Nix

My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in 
CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition):

> 5.3 Division into classes
> Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other 
> than domestic and
> those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies 
> buildings used
> for domestic purposes.
> 
> Class A equipment shall meet class A limits.
> 
> Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. 
> In the
> documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention 
> to the fact that
> there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic compatibility 
> in other
> environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances.
> 
> Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments 
> and in
> establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which 
> supplies
> buildings used for domestic purposes.
> 
> Class B equipment shall meet class B limits.

The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If the 
equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic establishments, 
then it must meet Class B requirements IMO.

If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the power 
supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then Class A 
performance is acceptable.

The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic establishments. 
If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no dwellings 
supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and therefore Class 
A.

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org
+1 (519) 729-5704

> On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison  wrote:
> 
> Good Morning,
>  
> What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which 
> a device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
> have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.
>  
> It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
> products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = 
> industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).
>  
> I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure that 
> those are what are typically followed in practice.
>  
> I appreciate any thoughts. 
>  
> Thank you.
>  
>  
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> >
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
>  can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas >
> Mike Cantwell >
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher >
> David Heald >
> 


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread John Woodgate

Yes, the 'zoning' is not perfect, but can you think of an improvement? I
can't.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 4:31 PM
To: 'John Woodgate' <jmw1...@btinternet.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes
 
You often get heavy electrical machinery in residential, light commercial
and hospital (etc.) (especially multi-story) premises - think local power
transformers, air-conditioning systems, lifts/elevators, water/sewage
pumping equipment, etc - and that can (and has certainly been seen to)
affect domestic, IT and medical electronic equipment in those premises.
 
It's the end-use environment that is (or should be) the determining factor
in deciding with which category of requirements the EUT must comply.
 
John E Allen
W.London, UK
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 18 October 2016 16:10
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes
 
No, because light industry premises are often very close to residential
premises, get power from the low-voltage supply and broadcast receivers can
be much closer than 30 m (the assumption for emission limit purposes is 10
m, but of course they could be even closer).
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Schmidt, Mark [mailto:markschm...@xrite.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 3:57 PM
To: John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com <mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com> >;
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: RE: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes
 
Hi John,
 
Would this be applicable for Light Industrial equipment as well?
 
Thank you.
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 10:49 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes
 
For Europe, 'industry' means heavy industry - large machines, high-power
electrical installation, not powered from the public low-voltage supply. No
broadcast radio or TV receivers likely to be within 30 metres.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_
=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiEXp8Wa3AN0R9o
JL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-gaRnQXk=GjhS
KIL3JsS7U0_q6lCXxHNYbr7GFcQHvQHPwZ7r0vM=>  J M Woodgate and Associates
Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 1:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for
EMC testing purposes
 
Good Morning,
 
What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in
which a device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or
non-industrial? I have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to
use.
 
It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store =
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).
 
I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure
that those are what are typically followed in practice.
 
I appreciate any thoughts. 
 
Thank you.
 
 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc
-2Dpstc.html=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGG
iEXp8Wa3AN0R9oJL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-
gaRnQXk=Bt9NbdlL_EShvm0dH0z746fmIZ9bXnqeaRu01kXdw8c=> 
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc
.ieee.org_=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiE

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread John Allen

You often get heavy electrical machinery in residential, light commercial
and hospital (etc.) (especially multi-story) premises - think local power
transformers, air-conditioning systems, lifts/elevators, water/sewage
pumping equipment, etc - and that can (and has certainly been seen to)
affect domestic, IT and medical electronic equipment in those premises.

 

It's the end-use environment that is (or should be) the determining factor
in deciding with which category of requirements the EUT must comply.

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 18 October 2016 16:10
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes

 

No, because light industry premises are often very close to residential
premises, get power from the low-voltage supply and broadcast receivers can
be much closer than 30 m (the assumption for emission limit purposes is 10
m, but of course they could be even closer).

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only

www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

 

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

 

From: Schmidt, Mark [mailto:markschm...@xrite.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 3:57 PM
To: John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes

 

Hi John,

 

Would this be applicable for Light Industrial equipment as well?

 

Thank you.

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 10:49 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes

 

For Europe, 'industry' means heavy industry - large machines, high-power
electrical installation, not powered from the public low-voltage supply. No
broadcast radio or TV receivers likely to be within 30 metres.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only

www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_
=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiEXp8Wa3AN0R9o
JL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-gaRnQXk=GjhS
KIL3JsS7U0_q6lCXxHNYbr7GFcQHvQHPwZ7r0vM=>  J M Woodgate and Associates
Rayleigh England

 

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

 

From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 1:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for
EMC testing purposes

 

Good Morning,

 

What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in
which a device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or
non-industrial? I have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to
use.

 

It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store =
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).

 

I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure
that those are what are typically followed in practice.

 

I appreciate any thoughts. 

 

Thank you.

 

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc
-2Dpstc.html=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGG
iEXp8Wa3AN0R9oJL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-
gaRnQXk=Bt9NbdlL_EShvm0dH0z746fmIZ9bXnqeaRu01kXdw8c=> 

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc
.ieee.org_=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiE
Xp8Wa3AN0R9oJL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-ga
RnQXk=aPFLgLk0Lwt8opg68wZESUkQwdAgkA7HC3CjjWetg48=>  can be used for
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_=
DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiEXp8Wa3AN0R9oJ
L3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-gaRnQXk=kt0Ha
hOgESnvyr9BHlRkR15o13XMDVdkIQNXU_VZ0vA=> 
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t.html=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiEXp8W
a3AN0R9oJL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread Schmidt, Mark

Hi John,

Would this be applicable for Light Industrial equipment as well?

Thank you.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 10:49 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for 
EMC testing purposes

For Europe, 'industry' means heavy industry - large machines, high-power 
electrical installation, not powered from the public low-voltage supply. No 
broadcast radio or TV receivers likely to be within 30 metres.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiEXp8Wa3AN0R9oJL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-gaRnQXk=GjhSKIL3JsS7U0_q6lCXxHNYbr7GFcQHvQHPwZ7r0vM=>
 J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 1:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC 
testing purposes

Good Morning,

What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which a 
device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.

It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = 
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).

I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure that 
those are what are typically followed in practice.

I appreciate any thoughts.

Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiEXp8Wa3AN0R9oJL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-gaRnQXk=aPFLgLk0Lwt8opg68wZESUkQwdAgkA7HC3CjjWetg48=>
 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiEXp8Wa3AN0R9oJL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-gaRnQXk=kt0HahOgESnvyr9BHlRkR15o13XMDVdkIQNXU_VZ0vA=>
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Attachments are not permitted but the

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread John Woodgate

No, because light industry premises are often very close to residential
premises, get power from the low-voltage supply and broadcast receivers can
be much closer than 30 m (the assumption for emission limit purposes is 10
m, but of course they could be even closer).
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Schmidt, Mark [mailto:markschm...@xrite.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 3:57 PM
To: John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes
 
Hi John,
 
Would this be applicable for Light Industrial equipment as well?
 
Thank you.
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 10:49 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial
for EMC testing purposes
 
For Europe, 'industry' means heavy industry - large machines, high-power
electrical installation, not powered from the public low-voltage supply. No
broadcast radio or TV receivers likely to be within 30 metres.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_
=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiEXp8Wa3AN0R9o
JL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-gaRnQXk=GjhS
KIL3JsS7U0_q6lCXxHNYbr7GFcQHvQHPwZ7r0vM=>  J M Woodgate and Associates
Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 1:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for
EMC testing purposes
 
Good Morning,
 
What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in
which a device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or
non-industrial? I have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to
use.
 
It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store =
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).
 
I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure
that those are what are typically followed in practice.
 
I appreciate any thoughts. 
 
Thank you.
 
 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc
-2Dpstc.html=DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGG
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gaRnQXk=Bt9NbdlL_EShvm0dH0z746fmIZ9bXnqeaRu01kXdw8c=> 
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
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<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc
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Xp8Wa3AN0R9oJL3JV5vFvlTsmxQpMmBLBIw=anF8KzSlsLQbjsJLP3rXWGZNlarqvhygt0M-ga
RnQXk=aPFLgLk0Lwt8opg68wZESUkQwdAgkA7HC3CjjWetg48=>  can be used for
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_=
DQMFAg=9mghv0deYPYDGP-W745IEdQLV1kHpn4XJRvR6xMRXtA=RsvNGGiEXp8Wa3AN0R9oJ
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Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread John Woodgate

For Europe, 'industry' means heavy industry - large machines, high-power
electrical installation, not powered from the public low-voltage supply. No
broadcast radio or TV receivers likely to be within 30 metres.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 1:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for
EMC testing purposes
 
Good Morning,
 
What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in
which a device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or
non-industrial? I have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to
use.
 
It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store =
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).
 
I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure
that those are what are typically followed in practice.
 
I appreciate any thoughts. 
 
Thank you.
 
 
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[PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

2016-10-18 Thread Kortas, Jamison

Good Morning,

What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which a 
device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I 
have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use.

It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other 
products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = 
industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment).

I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure that 
those are what are typically followed in practice.

I appreciate any thoughts.

Thank you.



-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald:

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

[PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes

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