Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[Dave Engvall]

Considering how much of the Ru munitions have western chips proves how much of 
the world is willing to cheat for a buck. 

> On Mar 18, 2024, at 7:33 PM, gene heskett  wrote:
> 
> On 3/18/24 18:50, Jon Elson wrote:
>> On 3/18/24 07:53, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:
>>> Gene,
>>> 
>>> In all honesty I wouldn't mind knowing more about your VFD source you say 
>>> you want black listed.  I'm so sick of trying to track down high speed VFDs 
>>> that I'm almost tempted to pay the machine manufacturer's ridiculous 3X 
>>> normal retail list price markup the next time we need a new one.   We 
>>> occasionally have needed a replacement VFD capable of running about a 15kw 
>>> 4pole router spindle at up to 24krpm (that is 800hz output, most drives 
>>> seem to max out at or are limited to 500-600hz output.)  The last time we 
>>> tried to order a new drive with these specs it was put on back order for 
>>> more than 1 year before we canceled the order.  (We canceled after the 
>>> delivery date had been pushed back 3 months for the 5th time.)  Then we 
>>> bought a used one off of ebay.  (Tracking down a used drive on ebay with 
>>> documented proof of the correct high speed firmware, when the sellers have 
>>> no clue, is also another annoying trick to perform.)
>>> 
>> I bought a $79 eBay special VFD for my Bridgeport R2E3 retrofit. The entire 
>> programming sheet was one large sheet of paper.  I wanted to program torque 
>> boost at the low-end. I could do that, but then the motor had an overcurrent 
>> at full speed.  There needed to be a breakpoint where the torque boost faded 
>> out, but I couldn't figure out how to set that.  So, I finally broke down 
>> and spent more money on one from Automation Direct.  It came with a 90+ page 
>> book that had all the parameters listed, and showed how they interacted.  
>> Very good, clear and understandable.
> 
> And worthless w/o that.
> 
>> There are arms controls on high frequency VFDs.
> 
> Yeah the ITAR stuff IIRC. The one that came as OEM on the 6040 didn't do 
> anything it was told, ran in random directions etc. I threw it in the trailer 
> and bought a $120 clone on ebay. Its done as it was told for around 5 years 
> now. But its been changed once as the OEM motor was 120 volt and I was going 
> blind from the blinking shop lights so when the 120 volt motor bearings went 
> out, 3 or 4 hours running, the whole thing was replaced by 250 volt 4 bearing 
> stuff. One session with bad water I had to learn about, should still modify 
> it with a deionizer. but its not plugged up the motor,,, yet...  That 6040 
> has stepper/servo's on the Z and B axises. the Z because the 4 bearing motor 
> is bigger and heavier so stock couldn't lift it, same size motor in 
> stepper/servo picks it up at 60 ipm. And has never faulted. B axis is another 
> stepper/servo, follows the Y at 400 rpm carving vice screw threads in perfect 
> sync. 4mm tall buttress threads, 50mm in diameter two start, 12mm pitch in 
> hard maple. 3NM motors on 5/1 worms, chucks, shaft adapters, mounts, all 3d 
> printed, works great. And no (expletive) PID's in sight. They do exactly as 
> the tp or motion tells them to do.  Sweet.
>> Jon
> 
> Take care & stay well Jon.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
> - Louis D. Brandeis
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[gene heskett]

On 3/19/24 18:09, Robin Szemeti via Emc-users wrote:

TWT's are still widely used for satellite uplinks ... a typical broadcast
uplink will be a pair of 400W tubes at around 14GHz  .. one running to the
antenna, one running to a dummy load, ready for instant changeover.   The
bigger tubes will run 750W.. There are no affordable solid state devices at
those power levels at those frequencies.  Surplus TWT's occasionally appear
on the surplus market.

They are also highly prized by radio amateurs for "moonbounce"  .. the path
losses involved in bouncing a signal off the moon to another station are
"significant" ... you generally want all the power you can get. The moon is
quite far away and oddly enough, spheres of dust and rock with a fairly
random surface are not exactly great reflectors ...

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 21:49, Dave Matthews  wrote:


We had some training on traveling wave amplifier tubes, referred to as TWAT
tubes back in Nike Hercules tech school in 1977.

Dave
ex MOS 22L

On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 4:35 PM gene heskett  wrote:


On 3/19/24 14:15, Robin Szemeti via Emc-users wrote:

I purchased a couple of large travelling wave tube amplifiers in an
auction.  I phoned the US company to ask about schematics and a manual

...

"can we have the serial numbers please?"  ... "sure ... " "great and

what

date did you sign the ITAR agreement?" 

I had a student following me around in his spare time in the 70's who 
got interested in moon bounce, finally did it on 2 meters with an array 
of log-periodic antennas rigged on servo mounts to track the moon as it 
came above the horizon. I understand the losses on 2 meters were a 
hundred thirty db +, but that array was bigger than his house and wind 
demolished it so I expect he went to a higher frequency so the arrays 
were a more manageable size.  Don't know what became of him as I left 
the area in favor of the Chief's chair at a bound to fail NM tv station. 
 Market wasn't big enough and my salary was bankrupting them. It went 
bust and the assets sold to a bigger station a couple months after I 
left. But they were on the air all but about a day during the time I was 
there. No trace of the station site in the sand above the San Juan River 
the last time I checked on GE 30 years ago.  An NBC bonus station, bonus 
meaning we got the network signal for free, but also didn't get paid for 
the commercials aired. NBC was then hosting the MDA thing over the long 
labor day every year. And I was there making sure everything was working 
 for the 15 minute cutaway for local station efforts, when a greyhound 
buss with KISS painted all over it pulled into the parking lot, unloaded 
there gear and volunteered to spend the rest of the day playing for 
Jerry's kids.  I got handed their mixing console. Told which jack to get 
a line out and I could mix to suit me. So I can say I spent an afternoon 
mixing for KISS when they were just getting started. I left a couple 
months later, walking away from a $20,000 bath in real estate amoung 
other things, wandered into a station in Redding ca, hired instantly 
based on the CET after my name, and before I'd found all the light 
switches the then Chief had a heart attack and took 18 months off. He 
eventually came back and it was plain my chance of officially getting 
the job I was doing, was null, so I left. I sign on to Key systems, got 
sent to WTSF in KY, spent a year teaching their golden boy all about 
klystrons.  So I next went 150 mi NE to WDTV where I finished out my 
working years, lost my wife she couldn't stand WV, married a local old 
maid school teacher 3 years later. Good neighbors, place paid for 26 
years ago. Lost my 3rd to COPD 4 years back. I'm here till I ain't.


I've done pretty good for an Iowa farm kid with an 8th grade education, 
I quit school at 14 and went to fixing tv's when they were new. Been 
chasing electrons to make them do useful work since. So if someone 
mention a 2A3 vacuum tube I know precisely what they are referring to. 
If some of what I write sounds off the wall, I've probably BT & DT.


Take care all. and stay well.

Its been an interesting ride, I was doing things with tubes when 
transistors were invented..



I presume they've been disposed of in unsalvagable condition...  Like if
glass, smashed into small pieces by a 16 lb sledge. If they ever trace
them to you, pix of the destruction may help. But not if ceramic body's
instead of glass. Any dust from destroying them is lung cancer seed.
Very 100% dangerous. Do not break, grind or file.

And that auction has been advised of its illegality.  It is a tech
similar to klystrons but with a more distrituted and much broader band
applications that because of ITAR has faded away into a technical info
vacuum. I've not heard of a twt since the cold war warmed up in the late
50's and we started building ICBM's in everybody's back yard. I was
there, help build 3 titan ones in the middle of nowhere South Dakota.


On Mon, 18 Mar 

Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[Robin Szemeti via Emc-users]

TWT's are still widely used for satellite uplinks ... a typical broadcast
uplink will be a pair of 400W tubes at around 14GHz  .. one running to the
antenna, one running to a dummy load, ready for instant changeover.   The
bigger tubes will run 750W.. There are no affordable solid state devices at
those power levels at those frequencies.  Surplus TWT's occasionally appear
on the surplus market.

They are also highly prized by radio amateurs for "moonbounce"  .. the path
losses involved in bouncing a signal off the moon to another station are
"significant" ... you generally want all the power you can get. The moon is
quite far away and oddly enough, spheres of dust and rock with a fairly
random surface are not exactly great reflectors ...

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 21:49, Dave Matthews  wrote:

> We had some training on traveling wave amplifier tubes, referred to as TWAT
> tubes back in Nike Hercules tech school in 1977.
>
> Dave
> ex MOS 22L
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 4:35 PM gene heskett  wrote:
>
> > On 3/19/24 14:15, Robin Szemeti via Emc-users wrote:
> > > I purchased a couple of large travelling wave tube amplifiers in an
> > > auction.  I phoned the US company to ask about schematics and a manual
> > ...
> > > "can we have the serial numbers please?"  ... "sure ... " "great and
> what
> > > date did you sign the ITAR agreement?" 
> > >
> > I presume they've been disposed of in unsalvagable condition...  Like if
> > glass, smashed into small pieces by a 16 lb sledge. If they ever trace
> > them to you, pix of the destruction may help. But not if ceramic body's
> > instead of glass. Any dust from destroying them is lung cancer seed.
> > Very 100% dangerous. Do not break, grind or file.
> >
> > And that auction has been advised of its illegality.  It is a tech
> > similar to klystrons but with a more distrituted and much broader band
> > applications that because of ITAR has faded away into a technical info
> > vacuum. I've not heard of a twt since the cold war warmed up in the late
> > 50's and we started building ICBM's in everybody's back yard. I was
> > there, help build 3 titan ones in the middle of nowhere South Dakota.
> >
> > > On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 17:45, gene heskett 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 3/18/24 11:28, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:
> > >>> Gene,
> > >>>
> > >> Well 2 things I've observed since posting that, Todd. the pix is
> > >> identical for a 3 kilohertz version on amazon for about the same
> price,
> > >> once adjusted to us dollars . So I'm wondering if aliexpress added an
> > >> extra 0, they rarely know what they are selling anyway.
> > >>
> > >> And since it showed up on amazon too, I'm wondering if the ITAR rules
> > >> have been relaxed.
> > >>
> > >> Here is the highest HP rated amazon offering. 15kw 20hp for about
> $1200:
> > >> <
> > >>
> >
> https://www.amazon.com/Mollom-220V-15KW-20HP-Frequency/dp/B0CQBZ4FZN/ref=sr_1_52?crid=30GVV1U3R7JUA=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.5mKofR2CvOgdLO3tCtLjmKysBbvC8T8oTt4SNyV7-PqBQ6UsvOrsvyppX7rBUpjT2IZZ2mAWKRkL0H1nJj5MGcPBTDsP2EbqZePAsB09iFXxVTemY7Dr4c-fOZHZLdaaBQulJLMrOYJl5bQBZyyubX0LkNc-DuFlyrVam8hlnFXUx5O0mASax2WBIToQk1TnTgzTo9aSvbn0kcp1wxgKUbqJsSefz-wM0iZmaooVN5zTcqmgr8SzJWLCsHsviwy3aYCLB0dDN-JFW7Rw6Cp1GUTSqURhr6UCPywhkuSnYI0.1sKFN_5H6kH9Ju3mlK1mAlKX2LaJ6eM0Et-7LWB83CI_tag=se=high+speed+high+horsepower+vfd=1710778937=high+speed+high+horsepower+vfd%2Caps%2C82=8-52=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.765d4786-5719-48b9-b588-eab9385652d5
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I'd think that could run your 4 pole motor at 800hz just fine. UNK and
> > >> unstated in the adv is the control range so I would scale the 3k range
> > >> so max from the controller would only get you the rated speed at the
> > >> motor. But I don't have to tell you that, you've been dealing with
> those
> > >> sorts of problems with that machine for long enough this ought to be
> the
> > >> best answer.  Sometimes this is self limiting, higher frequencys run
> > >> into the motors inductance, coil current falls and the motor actually
> > >> slows down, my Sheldons max usable speed while running a 70 yo motor
> > >> that never saw a vfd until me is about 200 hz as the coil current is
> > >> under an amp at 200 hz. 3.7 amps at 60 hz. OTOH it can run it at 5hz
> > >> long enough to finish the job and still lay my hand on that motor w/o
> > >> discomfort from the heat.
> > >>
> > >> As for needing a new one, the usual failure is going to be the line
> > >> stage filter caps which often will have a note in the docs someplace
> to
> > >> the effect that they should be replaced at 5 year intervals, however
> the
> > >> smaller ones that don't have braking resistors are actually 4 quadrant
> > >> controllers, meaning a quick reversal will overvolt those filters for
> a
> > >> few milliseconds as they do the reversal, they suck that power out of
> > >> the motor stopping it, storing it as overvoltage in those filters,
> then
> > >> as soon as the new direction is applied use that stored energy to spin
> > >> the 

Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[Dave Matthews]

We had some training on traveling wave amplifier tubes, referred to as TWAT
tubes back in Nike Hercules tech school in 1977.

Dave
ex MOS 22L

On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 4:35 PM gene heskett  wrote:

> On 3/19/24 14:15, Robin Szemeti via Emc-users wrote:
> > I purchased a couple of large travelling wave tube amplifiers in an
> > auction.  I phoned the US company to ask about schematics and a manual
> ...
> > "can we have the serial numbers please?"  ... "sure ... " "great and what
> > date did you sign the ITAR agreement?" 
> >
> I presume they've been disposed of in unsalvagable condition...  Like if
> glass, smashed into small pieces by a 16 lb sledge. If they ever trace
> them to you, pix of the destruction may help. But not if ceramic body's
> instead of glass. Any dust from destroying them is lung cancer seed.
> Very 100% dangerous. Do not break, grind or file.
>
> And that auction has been advised of its illegality.  It is a tech
> similar to klystrons but with a more distrituted and much broader band
> applications that because of ITAR has faded away into a technical info
> vacuum. I've not heard of a twt since the cold war warmed up in the late
> 50's and we started building ICBM's in everybody's back yard. I was
> there, help build 3 titan ones in the middle of nowhere South Dakota.
>
> > On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 17:45, gene heskett  wrote:
> >
> >> On 3/18/24 11:28, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:
> >>> Gene,
> >>>
> >> Well 2 things I've observed since posting that, Todd. the pix is
> >> identical for a 3 kilohertz version on amazon for about the same price,
> >> once adjusted to us dollars . So I'm wondering if aliexpress added an
> >> extra 0, they rarely know what they are selling anyway.
> >>
> >> And since it showed up on amazon too, I'm wondering if the ITAR rules
> >> have been relaxed.
> >>
> >> Here is the highest HP rated amazon offering. 15kw 20hp for about $1200:
> >> <
> >>
> https://www.amazon.com/Mollom-220V-15KW-20HP-Frequency/dp/B0CQBZ4FZN/ref=sr_1_52?crid=30GVV1U3R7JUA=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.5mKofR2CvOgdLO3tCtLjmKysBbvC8T8oTt4SNyV7-PqBQ6UsvOrsvyppX7rBUpjT2IZZ2mAWKRkL0H1nJj5MGcPBTDsP2EbqZePAsB09iFXxVTemY7Dr4c-fOZHZLdaaBQulJLMrOYJl5bQBZyyubX0LkNc-DuFlyrVam8hlnFXUx5O0mASax2WBIToQk1TnTgzTo9aSvbn0kcp1wxgKUbqJsSefz-wM0iZmaooVN5zTcqmgr8SzJWLCsHsviwy3aYCLB0dDN-JFW7Rw6Cp1GUTSqURhr6UCPywhkuSnYI0.1sKFN_5H6kH9Ju3mlK1mAlKX2LaJ6eM0Et-7LWB83CI_tag=se=high+speed+high+horsepower+vfd=1710778937=high+speed+high+horsepower+vfd%2Caps%2C82=8-52=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.765d4786-5719-48b9-b588-eab9385652d5
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'd think that could run your 4 pole motor at 800hz just fine. UNK and
> >> unstated in the adv is the control range so I would scale the 3k range
> >> so max from the controller would only get you the rated speed at the
> >> motor. But I don't have to tell you that, you've been dealing with those
> >> sorts of problems with that machine for long enough this ought to be the
> >> best answer.  Sometimes this is self limiting, higher frequencys run
> >> into the motors inductance, coil current falls and the motor actually
> >> slows down, my Sheldons max usable speed while running a 70 yo motor
> >> that never saw a vfd until me is about 200 hz as the coil current is
> >> under an amp at 200 hz. 3.7 amps at 60 hz. OTOH it can run it at 5hz
> >> long enough to finish the job and still lay my hand on that motor w/o
> >> discomfort from the heat.
> >>
> >> As for needing a new one, the usual failure is going to be the line
> >> stage filter caps which often will have a note in the docs someplace to
> >> the effect that they should be replaced at 5 year intervals, however the
> >> smaller ones that don't have braking resistors are actually 4 quadrant
> >> controllers, meaning a quick reversal will overvolt those filters for a
> >> few milliseconds as they do the reversal, they suck that power out of
> >> the motor stopping it, storing it as overvoltage in those filters, then
> >> as soon as the new direction is applied use that stored energy to spin
> >> the motor back up in the other direction, so the overvoltage is not
> >> present long enough to damage them, but actually contributes to
> >> maintaining the "forming" of those caps so they live longer. The 1.5 hp
> >> rated el-cheapo clone running the 1 hp in my Sheldon lathe is now around
> >> 9 years old and can still reverse that motor and its 40lb 8" 4 jaw chuck
> >> in under 1/3 second at 100 revs. Overshoot at 100 revs is .24 turns from
> >> 100 rpm to stopped. And the shop lights don't blink. Its all in the .hal
> >> file if interested. No circuit breakers in any danger of tripping as all
> >> the excitement is in the vfd and doesn't involve the wall power. Just
> >> give me a yip.
> >>
> >> These aren't toy's, they can kill, so give them the respect such killers
> >> deserve. But I don't have to tell YOU that.
> >>
> >> Take care & stay well Todd.
> >>
> >>> In all honesty I wouldn't mind knowing more about your VFD source you
> >> say you 

Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[gene heskett]

On 3/19/24 14:15, Robin Szemeti via Emc-users wrote:

I purchased a couple of large travelling wave tube amplifiers in an
auction.  I phoned the US company to ask about schematics and a manual ...
"can we have the serial numbers please?"  ... "sure ... " "great and what
date did you sign the ITAR agreement?" 

I presume they've been disposed of in unsalvagable condition...  Like if 
glass, smashed into small pieces by a 16 lb sledge. If they ever trace 
them to you, pix of the destruction may help. But not if ceramic body's 
instead of glass. Any dust from destroying them is lung cancer seed. 
Very 100% dangerous. Do not break, grind or file.


And that auction has been advised of its illegality.  It is a tech 
similar to klystrons but with a more distrituted and much broader band 
applications that because of ITAR has faded away into a technical info 
vacuum. I've not heard of a twt since the cold war warmed up in the late 
50's and we started building ICBM's in everybody's back yard. I was 
there, help build 3 titan ones in the middle of nowhere South Dakota.



On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 17:45, gene heskett  wrote:


On 3/18/24 11:28, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:

Gene,


Well 2 things I've observed since posting that, Todd. the pix is
identical for a 3 kilohertz version on amazon for about the same price,
once adjusted to us dollars . So I'm wondering if aliexpress added an
extra 0, they rarely know what they are selling anyway.

And since it showed up on amazon too, I'm wondering if the ITAR rules
have been relaxed.

Here is the highest HP rated amazon offering. 15kw 20hp for about $1200:
<
https://www.amazon.com/Mollom-220V-15KW-20HP-Frequency/dp/B0CQBZ4FZN/ref=sr_1_52?crid=30GVV1U3R7JUA=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.5mKofR2CvOgdLO3tCtLjmKysBbvC8T8oTt4SNyV7-PqBQ6UsvOrsvyppX7rBUpjT2IZZ2mAWKRkL0H1nJj5MGcPBTDsP2EbqZePAsB09iFXxVTemY7Dr4c-fOZHZLdaaBQulJLMrOYJl5bQBZyyubX0LkNc-DuFlyrVam8hlnFXUx5O0mASax2WBIToQk1TnTgzTo9aSvbn0kcp1wxgKUbqJsSefz-wM0iZmaooVN5zTcqmgr8SzJWLCsHsviwy3aYCLB0dDN-JFW7Rw6Cp1GUTSqURhr6UCPywhkuSnYI0.1sKFN_5H6kH9Ju3mlK1mAlKX2LaJ6eM0Et-7LWB83CI_tag=se=high+speed+high+horsepower+vfd=1710778937=high+speed+high+horsepower+vfd%2Caps%2C82=8-52=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.765d4786-5719-48b9-b588-eab9385652d5




I'd think that could run your 4 pole motor at 800hz just fine. UNK and
unstated in the adv is the control range so I would scale the 3k range
so max from the controller would only get you the rated speed at the
motor. But I don't have to tell you that, you've been dealing with those
sorts of problems with that machine for long enough this ought to be the
best answer.  Sometimes this is self limiting, higher frequencys run
into the motors inductance, coil current falls and the motor actually
slows down, my Sheldons max usable speed while running a 70 yo motor
that never saw a vfd until me is about 200 hz as the coil current is
under an amp at 200 hz. 3.7 amps at 60 hz. OTOH it can run it at 5hz
long enough to finish the job and still lay my hand on that motor w/o
discomfort from the heat.

As for needing a new one, the usual failure is going to be the line
stage filter caps which often will have a note in the docs someplace to
the effect that they should be replaced at 5 year intervals, however the
smaller ones that don't have braking resistors are actually 4 quadrant
controllers, meaning a quick reversal will overvolt those filters for a
few milliseconds as they do the reversal, they suck that power out of
the motor stopping it, storing it as overvoltage in those filters, then
as soon as the new direction is applied use that stored energy to spin
the motor back up in the other direction, so the overvoltage is not
present long enough to damage them, but actually contributes to
maintaining the "forming" of those caps so they live longer. The 1.5 hp
rated el-cheapo clone running the 1 hp in my Sheldon lathe is now around
9 years old and can still reverse that motor and its 40lb 8" 4 jaw chuck
in under 1/3 second at 100 revs. Overshoot at 100 revs is .24 turns from
100 rpm to stopped. And the shop lights don't blink. Its all in the .hal
file if interested. No circuit breakers in any danger of tripping as all
the excitement is in the vfd and doesn't involve the wall power. Just
give me a yip.

These aren't toy's, they can kill, so give them the respect such killers
deserve. But I don't have to tell YOU that.

Take care & stay well Todd.


In all honesty I wouldn't mind knowing more about your VFD source you

say you want black listed.  I'm so sick of trying to track down high speed
VFDs that I'm almost tempted to pay the machine manufacturer's ridiculous
3X normal retail list price markup the next time we need a new one.   We
occasionally have needed a replacement VFD capable of running about a 15kw
4pole router spindle at up to 24krpm (that is 800hz output, most drives
seem to max out at or are limited to 500-600hz output.)  The last time we
tried to order a new drive with these specs it was put on back order 

Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[Robin Szemeti via Emc-users]

And Mouser!   Black list mouser as they sell all sorts of high power
MOSFETS and IGBTS that could be used to construct drives for the same
purpose.  And all non ferrous metals stock holders ... they sell brass and
bronze that could be used for the bearings, have they no shame?

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 03:42, Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> I remember once working at a company where we bought a fairly high-end
> PC.   We found we could not export it without a license.  But guess what?
> It was made in China.   Some rules are pointless.
>
>
> > On Mar 18, 2024, at 7:33 PM, gene heskett  wrote:
> >
> > On 3/18/24 18:50, Jon Elson wrote:
> >> On 3/18/24 07:53, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:
> >>> Gene,
> >>>
> >>> In all honesty I wouldn't mind knowing more about your VFD source you
> say you want black listed.  I'm so sick of trying to track down high speed
> VFDs that I'm almost tempted to pay the machine manufacturer's ridiculous
> 3X normal retail list price markup the next time we need a new one.   We
> occasionally have needed a replacement VFD capable of running about a 15kw
> 4pole router spindle at up to 24krpm (that is 800hz output, most drives
> seem to max out at or are limited to 500-600hz output.)  The last time we
> tried to order a new drive with th
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[Robin Szemeti via Emc-users]

I purchased a couple of large travelling wave tube amplifiers in an
auction.  I phoned the US company to ask about schematics and a manual ...
"can we have the serial numbers please?"  ... "sure ... " "great and what
date did you sign the ITAR agreement?" 

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 17:45, gene heskett  wrote:

> On 3/18/24 11:28, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:
> > Gene,
> >
> Well 2 things I've observed since posting that, Todd. the pix is
> identical for a 3 kilohertz version on amazon for about the same price,
> once adjusted to us dollars . So I'm wondering if aliexpress added an
> extra 0, they rarely know what they are selling anyway.
>
> And since it showed up on amazon too, I'm wondering if the ITAR rules
> have been relaxed.
>
> Here is the highest HP rated amazon offering. 15kw 20hp for about $1200:
> <
> https://www.amazon.com/Mollom-220V-15KW-20HP-Frequency/dp/B0CQBZ4FZN/ref=sr_1_52?crid=30GVV1U3R7JUA=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.5mKofR2CvOgdLO3tCtLjmKysBbvC8T8oTt4SNyV7-PqBQ6UsvOrsvyppX7rBUpjT2IZZ2mAWKRkL0H1nJj5MGcPBTDsP2EbqZePAsB09iFXxVTemY7Dr4c-fOZHZLdaaBQulJLMrOYJl5bQBZyyubX0LkNc-DuFlyrVam8hlnFXUx5O0mASax2WBIToQk1TnTgzTo9aSvbn0kcp1wxgKUbqJsSefz-wM0iZmaooVN5zTcqmgr8SzJWLCsHsviwy3aYCLB0dDN-JFW7Rw6Cp1GUTSqURhr6UCPywhkuSnYI0.1sKFN_5H6kH9Ju3mlK1mAlKX2LaJ6eM0Et-7LWB83CI_tag=se=high+speed+high+horsepower+vfd=1710778937=high+speed+high+horsepower+vfd%2Caps%2C82=8-52=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.765d4786-5719-48b9-b588-eab9385652d5
> >
>
> I'd think that could run your 4 pole motor at 800hz just fine. UNK and
> unstated in the adv is the control range so I would scale the 3k range
> so max from the controller would only get you the rated speed at the
> motor. But I don't have to tell you that, you've been dealing with those
> sorts of problems with that machine for long enough this ought to be the
> best answer.  Sometimes this is self limiting, higher frequencys run
> into the motors inductance, coil current falls and the motor actually
> slows down, my Sheldons max usable speed while running a 70 yo motor
> that never saw a vfd until me is about 200 hz as the coil current is
> under an amp at 200 hz. 3.7 amps at 60 hz. OTOH it can run it at 5hz
> long enough to finish the job and still lay my hand on that motor w/o
> discomfort from the heat.
>
> As for needing a new one, the usual failure is going to be the line
> stage filter caps which often will have a note in the docs someplace to
> the effect that they should be replaced at 5 year intervals, however the
> smaller ones that don't have braking resistors are actually 4 quadrant
> controllers, meaning a quick reversal will overvolt those filters for a
> few milliseconds as they do the reversal, they suck that power out of
> the motor stopping it, storing it as overvoltage in those filters, then
> as soon as the new direction is applied use that stored energy to spin
> the motor back up in the other direction, so the overvoltage is not
> present long enough to damage them, but actually contributes to
> maintaining the "forming" of those caps so they live longer. The 1.5 hp
> rated el-cheapo clone running the 1 hp in my Sheldon lathe is now around
> 9 years old and can still reverse that motor and its 40lb 8" 4 jaw chuck
> in under 1/3 second at 100 revs. Overshoot at 100 revs is .24 turns from
> 100 rpm to stopped. And the shop lights don't blink. Its all in the .hal
> file if interested. No circuit breakers in any danger of tripping as all
> the excitement is in the vfd and doesn't involve the wall power. Just
> give me a yip.
>
> These aren't toy's, they can kill, so give them the respect such killers
> deserve. But I don't have to tell YOU that.
>
> Take care & stay well Todd.
>
> > In all honesty I wouldn't mind knowing more about your VFD source you
> say you want black listed.  I'm so sick of trying to track down high speed
> VFDs that I'm almost tempted to pay the machine manufacturer's ridiculous
> 3X normal retail list price markup the next time we need a new one.   We
> occasionally have needed a replacement VFD capable of running about a 15kw
> 4pole router spindle at up to 24krpm (that is 800hz output, most drives
> seem to max out at or are limited to 500-600hz output.)  The last time we
> tried to order a new drive with these specs it was put on back order for
> more than 1 year before we canceled the order.  (We canceled after the
> delivery date had been pushed back 3 months for the 5th time.)  Then we
> bought a used one off of ebay.  (Tracking down a used drive on ebay with
> documented proof of the correct high speed firmware, when the sellers have
> no clue, is also another annoying trick to perform.)
>
> That is what we get for doing unusual things Todd,  Goes with the
> territory.  The trick is getting the info needed to make an informed
> decision from someone who has NDI what those numbers represent. They
> simply don't speak the language. And it can be very frustrating.
> >
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > 630 Henry Street
> > 

Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[Chris Albertson]

I remember once working at a company where we bought a fairly high-end PC.   We 
found we could not export it without a license.  But guess what?  It was made 
in China.   Some rules are pointless.


> On Mar 18, 2024, at 7:33 PM, gene heskett  wrote:
> 
> On 3/18/24 18:50, Jon Elson wrote:
>> On 3/18/24 07:53, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:
>>> Gene,
>>> 
>>> In all honesty I wouldn't mind knowing more about your VFD source you say 
>>> you want black listed.  I'm so sick of trying to track down high speed VFDs 
>>> that I'm almost tempted to pay the machine manufacturer's ridiculous 3X 
>>> normal retail list price markup the next time we need a new one.   We 
>>> occasionally have needed a replacement VFD capable of running about a 15kw 
>>> 4pole router spindle at up to 24krpm (that is 800hz output, most drives 
>>> seem to max out at or are limited to 500-600hz output.)  The last time we 
>>> tried to order a new drive with th

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Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[gene heskett]

On 3/18/24 18:50, Jon Elson wrote:

On 3/18/24 07:53, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:

Gene,

In all honesty I wouldn't mind knowing more about your VFD source you 
say you want black listed.  I'm so sick of trying to track down high 
speed VFDs that I'm almost tempted to pay the machine manufacturer's 
ridiculous 3X normal retail list price markup the next time we need a 
new one.   We occasionally have needed a replacement VFD capable of 
running about a 15kw 4pole router spindle at up to 24krpm (that is 
800hz output, most drives seem to max out at or are limited to 
500-600hz output.)  The last time we tried to order a new drive with 
these specs it was put on back order for more than 1 year before we 
canceled the order.  (We canceled after the delivery date had been 
pushed back 3 months for the 5th time.)  Then we bought a used one off 
of ebay.  (Tracking down a used drive on ebay with documented proof of 
the correct high speed firmware, when the sellers have no clue, is 
also another annoying trick to perform.)


I bought a $79 eBay special VFD for my Bridgeport R2E3 retrofit. The 
entire programming sheet was one large sheet of paper.  I wanted to 
program torque boost at the low-end. I could do that, but then the motor 
had an overcurrent at full speed.  There needed to be a breakpoint where 
the torque boost faded out, but I couldn't figure out how to set that.  
So, I finally broke down and spent more money on one from Automation 
Direct.  It came with a 90+ page book that had all the parameters 
listed, and showed how they interacted.  Very good, clear and 
understandable.


And worthless w/o that.


There are arms controls on high frequency VFDs.


Yeah the ITAR stuff IIRC. The one that came as OEM on the 6040 didn't do 
anything it was told, ran in random directions etc. I threw it in the 
trailer and bought a $120 clone on ebay. Its done as it was told for 
around 5 years now. But its been changed once as the OEM motor was 120 
volt and I was going blind from the blinking shop lights so when the 120 
volt motor bearings went out, 3 or 4 hours running, the whole thing 
was replaced by 250 volt 4 bearing stuff. One session with bad water I 
had to learn about, should still modify it with a deionizer. but its not 
plugged up the motor,,, yet...  That 6040 has stepper/servo's on the Z 
and B axises. the Z because the 4 bearing motor is bigger and heavier so 
stock couldn't lift it, same size motor in stepper/servo picks it up at 
60 ipm. And has never faulted. B axis is another stepper/servo, follows 
the Y at 400 rpm carving vice screw threads in perfect sync. 4mm tall 
buttress threads, 50mm in diameter two start, 12mm pitch in hard maple. 
3NM motors on 5/1 worms, chucks, shaft adapters, mounts, all 3d printed, 
works great. And no (expletive) PID's in sight. They do exactly as the 
tp or motion tells them to do.  Sweet.

Jon


Take care & stay well Jon.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[Jon Elson]

On 3/18/24 07:53, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:

Gene,

In all honesty I wouldn't mind knowing more about your VFD source you say you 
want black listed.  I'm so sick of trying to track down high speed VFDs that 
I'm almost tempted to pay the machine manufacturer's ridiculous 3X normal 
retail list price markup the next time we need a new one.   We occasionally 
have needed a replacement VFD capable of running about a 15kw 4pole router 
spindle at up to 24krpm (that is 800hz output, most drives seem to max out at 
or are limited to 500-600hz output.)  The last time we tried to order a new 
drive with these specs it was put on back order for more than 1 year before we 
canceled the order.  (We canceled after the delivery date had been pushed back 
3 months for the 5th time.)  Then we bought a used one off of ebay.  (Tracking 
down a used drive on ebay with documented proof of the correct high speed 
firmware, when the sellers have no clue, is also another annoying trick to 
perform.)

I bought a $79 eBay special VFD for my Bridgeport R2E3 
retrofit. The entire programming sheet was one large sheet 
of paper.  I wanted to program torque boost at the low-end.  
I could do that, but then the motor had an overcurrent at 
full speed.  There needed to be a breakpoint where the 
torque boost faded out, but I couldn't figure out how to set 
that.  So, I finally broke down and spent more money on one 
from Automation Direct.  It came with a 90+ page book that 
had all the parameters listed, and showed how they 
interacted.  Very good, clear and understandable.


There are arms controls on high frequency VFDs.

Jon



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Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[gene heskett]

On 3/18/24 11:28, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:

Gene,

Well 2 things I've observed since posting that, Todd. the pix is 
identical for a 3 kilohertz version on amazon for about the same price, 
once adjusted to us dollars . So I'm wondering if aliexpress added an 
extra 0, they rarely know what they are selling anyway.


And since it showed up on amazon too, I'm wondering if the ITAR rules 
have been relaxed.


Here is the highest HP rated amazon offering. 15kw 20hp for about $1200:


I'd think that could run your 4 pole motor at 800hz just fine. UNK and 
unstated in the adv is the control range so I would scale the 3k range 
so max from the controller would only get you the rated speed at the 
motor. But I don't have to tell you that, you've been dealing with those 
sorts of problems with that machine for long enough this ought to be the 
best answer.  Sometimes this is self limiting, higher frequencys run 
into the motors inductance, coil current falls and the motor actually 
slows down, my Sheldons max usable speed while running a 70 yo motor 
that never saw a vfd until me is about 200 hz as the coil current is 
under an amp at 200 hz. 3.7 amps at 60 hz. OTOH it can run it at 5hz 
long enough to finish the job and still lay my hand on that motor w/o 
discomfort from the heat.


As for needing a new one, the usual failure is going to be the line 
stage filter caps which often will have a note in the docs someplace to 
the effect that they should be replaced at 5 year intervals, however the 
smaller ones that don't have braking resistors are actually 4 quadrant 
controllers, meaning a quick reversal will overvolt those filters for a 
few milliseconds as they do the reversal, they suck that power out of 
the motor stopping it, storing it as overvoltage in those filters, then 
as soon as the new direction is applied use that stored energy to spin 
the motor back up in the other direction, so the overvoltage is not 
present long enough to damage them, but actually contributes to 
maintaining the "forming" of those caps so they live longer. The 1.5 hp 
rated el-cheapo clone running the 1 hp in my Sheldon lathe is now around 
9 years old and can still reverse that motor and its 40lb 8" 4 jaw chuck 
in under 1/3 second at 100 revs. Overshoot at 100 revs is .24 turns from 
100 rpm to stopped. And the shop lights don't blink. Its all in the .hal 
file if interested. No circuit breakers in any danger of tripping as all 
the excitement is in the vfd and doesn't involve the wall power. Just 
give me a yip.


These aren't toy's, they can kill, so give them the respect such killers 
deserve. But I don't have to tell YOU that.


Take care & stay well Todd.


In all honesty I wouldn't mind knowing more about your VFD source you say you 
want black listed.  I'm so sick of trying to track down high speed VFDs that 
I'm almost tempted to pay the machine manufacturer's ridiculous 3X normal 
retail list price markup the next time we need a new one.   We occasionally 
have needed a replacement VFD capable of running about a 15kw 4pole router 
spindle at up to 24krpm (that is 800hz output, most drives seem to max out at 
or are limited to 500-600hz output.)  The last time we tried to order a new 
drive with these specs it was put on back order for more than 1 year before we 
canceled the order.  (We canceled after the delivery date had been pushed back 
3 months for the 5th time.)  Then we bought a used one off of ebay.  (Tracking 
down a used drive on ebay with documented proof of the correct high speed 
firmware, when the sellers have no clue, is also another annoying trick to 
perform.)


That is what we get for doing unusual things Todd,  Goes with the 
territory.  The trick is getting the info needed to make an informed 
decision from someone who has NDI what those numbers represent. They 
simply don't speak the language. And it can be very frustrating.


Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[Todd Zuercher via Emc-users]

Gene,

In all honesty I wouldn't mind knowing more about your VFD source you say you 
want black listed.  I'm so sick of trying to track down high speed VFDs that 
I'm almost tempted to pay the machine manufacturer's ridiculous 3X normal 
retail list price markup the next time we need a new one.   We occasionally 
have needed a replacement VFD capable of running about a 15kw 4pole router 
spindle at up to 24krpm (that is 800hz output, most drives seem to max out at 
or are limited to 500-600hz output.)  The last time we tried to order a new 
drive with these specs it was put on back order for more than 1 year before we 
canceled the order.  (We canceled after the delivery date had been pushed back 
3 months for the 5th time.)  Then we bought a used one off of ebay.  (Tracking 
down a used drive on ebay with documented proof of the correct high speed 
firmware, when the sellers have no clue, is also another annoying trick to 
perform.)

Todd Zuercherm
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: gene heskett 
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2024 8:52 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

They just sent me an adv for a vfd capable of building an atomic centrifuge, 10 
horse, 30 kilohertz top speed. There's enough h-bombs to sterilize the planet 
here now, don't encourage them.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis


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[Emc-users] black list aliexpress

[gene heskett]

They just sent me an adv for a vfd capable of building an atomic 
centrifuge, 10 horse, 30 kilohertz top speed. There's enough h-bombs to 
sterilize the planet here now, don't encourage them.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis


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