Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[rayj]

I dissected one of the cable ends, and the contacts have 2 points in the 
same plane, so I'm guessing they are for stranded wire.  Thats good news 
for me, since I have typically been shortening and repairing jumpers.  I 
have given the container a close inspection and can't find any thing on 
it that specifies solid/stranded for their application.  Do you know of 
a supplier/manufacturer that clearly indicates the intended application 
for their connectors?

Thanks for educating me on this issue. I was aware of solid/stranded 
issues on larger crimp-on terminals, but hadn't given it any thought for 
these connectors.

Thanks again,

Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN

The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, 
understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. 
And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, 
egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men 
admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. 
-John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)

On 10/18/2016 03:40 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 12:27 PM, rayj  wrote:
>>
>> I suspect I have been using the ends for solid wire on stranded wire!!
>> Do you know where I can get a quick education on which is which and how
>> to tell the difference?
>
> There's no 'standard', but what I've seen is this: the stranded wire
> contacts have a couple of sharp spikes, like a fork: they pierce the
> insulation and dig in between the strands of the cable. The solid wire
> contacts look like  three spades in a row, sligtly offset like this:
> _--_; they go through the insulation and capture the solid core
> between the blades. The contacts are pretty small---1-2mm size, so you
> have to look very closely.
>
> If you use the stranded wire contacts on a solid wire, it'll just
> cut/break the core. If you use the solid contacts on stranded wire,
> the clamping force might not be enough to form a gas-tight connection
> because the wire is too flexible.
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 12:27 PM, rayj  wrote:
>
> I suspect I have been using the ends for solid wire on stranded wire!!
> Do you know where I can get a quick education on which is which and how
> to tell the difference?

There's no 'standard', but what I've seen is this: the stranded wire
contacts have a couple of sharp spikes, like a fork: they pierce the
insulation and dig in between the strands of the cable. The solid wire
contacts look like  three spades in a row, sligtly offset like this:
_--_; they go through the insulation and capture the solid core
between the blades. The contacts are pretty small---1-2mm size, so you
have to look very closely.

If you use the stranded wire contacts on a solid wire, it'll just
cut/break the core. If you use the solid contacts on stranded wire,
the clamping force might not be enough to form a gas-tight connection
because the wire is too flexible.

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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Chris Albertson]

Looked like teflon to me.  Here is the real answer

"Plenum cable is jacketed with a fire-retardant
 plastic jacket of either a
low-smoke polyvinyl chloride
 (PVC) or a fluorinated
ethylene polymer (FEP
). Polyolefin
 formulations,"

It is NOT designed to resist heat.  There is no requirement that it not
melt  The requirement is that it not produce great amounts of toxic smoke
when it does burn.   In practice it is harder and shinier looking than
normal patch cable

I would think that the old fashion telephone handset cable might work too.
  Both types have RJ style connectors so the cable could be replaced in
seconds and they are cheap enough so you could keep a supply of spares and
change them out before they fail.

The shielded type are not the best in terms of flexibility.  The shielding
is done with metabolized foil.

The FIRST CLASS solution is a wireless link.  It only needs to go about a
foot so could be low power enough to run off a coin battery for a long
time.  Either radio or optical  The IR system used in TV removes work well
for short distances.


On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 2:09 AM, Erik Christiansen 
wrote:

> On 17.10.16 10:45, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > As for oil resistance, Buy the "plenum" type.  They use teflon insolation
> > and don't cost that much more.These are sold because of fire codes in
> > some kinds of buildings, they don't create toxic smoke in a fire.
>
> Silicone insulation, perhaps? After all, teflon releases hydrofluoric
> acid at high temperatures - definitely toxic. Silicone resists heat well
> too, and burns to sand, which can even maintain the insulation if contained
> and immobile. Silicone is soft and rubbery, while teflon is harder and
> stiffer, and a genuine PITA to strip, I found.
>
> When we needed some silicone insulated wire for automotive¹ use here in
> Australia 38 years ago, we had to have it made to order. ISTR the teflon
> was a good deal more expensive, as well as a pain.
>
> Erik
>
> ¹ Ford XD Falcon's LED digital clock.
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[rayj]

Greetings Prezemek,

I suspect I have been using the ends for solid wire on stranded wire!! 
Do you know where I can get a quick education on which is which and how 
to tell the difference?

TIA,

Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN

The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, 
understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. 
And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, 
egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men 
admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. 
-John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)

On 10/17/2016 12:10 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Chris Albertson
>  wrote:
>> Ethernet patch cable might work. .  Don't try and make you own.The 
>> pre-made ones come in any
>> length from about 12" to 25 feet and they have those over molded train
> You're absolutely right about buying cables---the cost is so low that
> it doesn't make sense. The patch cords actually get down to few inches
> (3-4"), which is great for local cabling in tight spaces.
>
>
>> The common kind of RF45 termination tools work only with the
>> solid in-wall kind of wire so don't use them.
>
> Actually, it's not the termination tools, but the terminals and plugs
> themselves---they are still insulation-displacing crimps, but the
> shape of the spades is different. In the beginning of the computer era
> we used to make our own cables and used the same tools with different
> plugs---it was a PITA because they looked the same (translucent
> plastic). Unless you opened a new marked box, we used to inspect the
> connector and it wasn't easy---you had to squint at the shape of the
> tiny gold-plated terminals through wavy plastic.
>
> If you used the wrong type for your wire, you'd get a broken wire
> touching the terminal by a tension in the plastic insulation: it might
> work for a little bit, but eventually the lack  of gas-tight
> metal-metal connection would cause it to fail.
>
> I'm saying this because someone might actually make a patch cable in a
> pinch, and that's what you have to pay attention to.
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Erik Christiansen]

On 17.10.16 10:45, Chris Albertson wrote:
> As for oil resistance, Buy the "plenum" type.  They use teflon insolation
> and don't cost that much more.These are sold because of fire codes in
> some kinds of buildings, they don't create toxic smoke in a fire.

Silicone insulation, perhaps? After all, teflon releases hydrofluoric
acid at high temperatures - definitely toxic. Silicone resists heat well
too, and burns to sand, which can even maintain the insulation if contained
and immobile. Silicone is soft and rubbery, while teflon is harder and
stiffer, and a genuine PITA to strip, I found. 

When we needed some silicone insulated wire for automotive¹ use here in
Australia 38 years ago, we had to have it made to order. ISTR the teflon
was a good deal more expensive, as well as a pain.

Erik

¹ Ford XD Falcon's LED digital clock.

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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 2:45 PM, Steve Traugott  wrote:
> ...and for encoder cables, you may want shielded twisted pair (has a foil
> layer under the jacket).  I've had issues with unshielded twisted pair
> picking up motor EMF and adding extra encoder counts.  ;-)

Very true, but the foil shield is famous for shredding under repeated
bending. Like Seymour Cray used to say, parity bits just cause more
errors, or in other words every problem starts as a solution to
another problem.

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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Steve Traugott]

What I'm trying to say is that when you say "ethernet cable", most people
mean UTP, unshielded twisted pair, generally rated CAT-5 or CAT-6 these
days.  Most ethernet patch cords are UTP.  You can get the same thing in a
shielded version as well, which you may find you want:

https://www.google.com/search?q=shielded+cat-5=shop


On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Nicklas Karlsson <
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > ...and for encoder cables, you may want shielded twisted pair (has a foil
> > layer under the jacket).  I've had issues with unshielded twisted pair
> > picking up motor EMF and adding extra encoder counts.  ;-)
>
> That's why ethernet cables and differential signals are a good choice.
>
> The PWM signals in the servos are really horrible then it come to
> electrical disturbance.
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Ed]

Thank you to everyone that sent in their ideas!

Since this is a commercial use and it takes about 8 hours to change the 
miserable cable I ended up going to Igus.com and getting  cable rated 
for millions of cycles. I had used common shielded twisted pair not 
thinking of the constant strain. The part I am making right now is 
almost a broaching operation as it is a 1 .25" long by .330" bore with a 
3" lead "thread" double lead left hand in brass luckily. It takes 150 
broaching passes starting at different start points to get the width of 
the cut, times 100 parts gives the cable a good workout.

Ed.


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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> ...and for encoder cables, you may want shielded twisted pair (has a foil
> layer under the jacket).  I've had issues with unshielded twisted pair
> picking up motor EMF and adding extra encoder counts.  ;-)

That's why ethernet cables and differential signals are a good choice.

The PWM signals in the servos are really horrible then it come to electrical 
disturbance.

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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Steve Traugott]

...and for encoder cables, you may want shielded twisted pair (has a foil
layer under the jacket).  I've had issues with unshielded twisted pair
picking up motor EMF and adding extra encoder counts.  ;-)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Chris Albertson  wrote:

> But today in real life, no one makes their own patch cables.  But every
> installer has to make their own terminators for the on-wall cable because
> you can't pull wire that has a bulky connector on it.  So the only tools
> and parts they commonly sell are for the in-wall kind of solid wire.
>
> As for oil resistance, Buy the "plenum" type.  They use teflon insolation
> and don't cost that much more.These are sold because of fire codes in
> some kinds of buildings, they don't create toxic smoke in a fire.  Yes they
> do make Plenum patch cables with flexible wire and no PVC.
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Przemek Klosowski <
> przemek.klosow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Chris Albertson
> >  wrote:
> > > Ethernet patch cable might work. .  Don't try and make you own.
> > The pre-made ones come in any
> > > length from about 12" to 25 feet and they have those over molded train
> > You're absolutely right about buying cables---the cost is so low that
> > it doesn't make sense. The patch cords actually get down to few inches
> > (3-4"), which is great for local cabling in tight spaces.
> >
> >
> > >The common kind of RF45 termination tools work only with the
> > > solid in-wall kind of wire so don't use them.
> >
> > Actually, it's not the termination tools, but the terminals and plugs
> > themselves---they are still insulation-displacing crimps, but the
> > shape of the spades is different. In the beginning of the computer era
> > we used to make our own cables and used the same tools with different
> > plugs---it was a PITA because they looked the same (translucent
> > plastic). Unless you opened a new marked box, we used to inspect the
> > connector and it wasn't easy---you had to squint at the shape of the
> > tiny gold-plated terminals through wavy plastic.
> >
> > If you used the wrong type for your wire, you'd get a broken wire
> > touching the terminal by a tension in the plastic insulation: it might
> > work for a little bit, but eventually the lack  of gas-tight
> > metal-metal connection would cause it to fail.
> >
> > I'm saying this because someone might actually make a patch cable in a
> > pinch, and that's what you have to pay attention to.
> >
> > 
> > --
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > ___
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>
>
>
> --
>
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> Redondo Beach, California
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Chris Albertson]

But today in real life, no one makes their own patch cables.  But every
installer has to make their own terminators for the on-wall cable because
you can't pull wire that has a bulky connector on it.  So the only tools
and parts they commonly sell are for the in-wall kind of solid wire.

As for oil resistance, Buy the "plenum" type.  They use teflon insolation
and don't cost that much more.These are sold because of fire codes in
some kinds of buildings, they don't create toxic smoke in a fire.  Yes they
do make Plenum patch cables with flexible wire and no PVC.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Przemek Klosowski <
przemek.klosow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Chris Albertson
>  wrote:
> > Ethernet patch cable might work. .  Don't try and make you own.
> The pre-made ones come in any
> > length from about 12" to 25 feet and they have those over molded train
> You're absolutely right about buying cables---the cost is so low that
> it doesn't make sense. The patch cords actually get down to few inches
> (3-4"), which is great for local cabling in tight spaces.
>
>
> >The common kind of RF45 termination tools work only with the
> > solid in-wall kind of wire so don't use them.
>
> Actually, it's not the termination tools, but the terminals and plugs
> themselves---they are still insulation-displacing crimps, but the
> shape of the spades is different. In the beginning of the computer era
> we used to make our own cables and used the same tools with different
> plugs---it was a PITA because they looked the same (translucent
> plastic). Unless you opened a new marked box, we used to inspect the
> connector and it wasn't easy---you had to squint at the shape of the
> tiny gold-plated terminals through wavy plastic.
>
> If you used the wrong type for your wire, you'd get a broken wire
> touching the terminal by a tension in the plastic insulation: it might
> work for a little bit, but eventually the lack  of gas-tight
> metal-metal connection would cause it to fail.
>
> I'm saying this because someone might actually make a patch cable in a
> pinch, and that's what you have to pay attention to.
>
> 
> --
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> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[andy pugh]

On 17 October 2016 at 18:10, Przemek Klosowski
 wrote:
> You're absolutely right about buying cables---the cost is so low that
> it doesn't make sense.

In fact, I have bought patch cables and cut the ends off as a source
of multi-core flex at times.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Chris Albertson
 wrote:
> Ethernet patch cable might work. .  Don't try and make you own.The 
> pre-made ones come in any
> length from about 12" to 25 feet and they have those over molded train
You're absolutely right about buying cables---the cost is so low that
it doesn't make sense. The patch cords actually get down to few inches
(3-4"), which is great for local cabling in tight spaces.


>The common kind of RF45 termination tools work only with the
> solid in-wall kind of wire so don't use them.

Actually, it's not the termination tools, but the terminals and plugs
themselves---they are still insulation-displacing crimps, but the
shape of the spades is different. In the beginning of the computer era
we used to make our own cables and used the same tools with different
plugs---it was a PITA because they looked the same (translucent
plastic). Unless you opened a new marked box, we used to inspect the
connector and it wasn't easy---you had to squint at the shape of the
tiny gold-plated terminals through wavy plastic.

If you used the wrong type for your wire, you'd get a broken wire
touching the terminal by a tension in the plastic insulation: it might
work for a little bit, but eventually the lack  of gas-tight
metal-metal connection would cause it to fail.

I'm saying this because someone might actually make a patch cable in a
pinch, and that's what you have to pay attention to.

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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> Allied Electronics has _Continuous Flex_ cable listed and that's what you'd
> want when attaching to a moving axis, whether it's in a cable drag chain or
> not.  Here's the Alpha wire catalog page from Allied Electronics page:
> 
> http://www.alliedelec.com/catalog/pf.aspx?fn=1358.pdf
> 
> If anyone knows of a better place (cheaper) to get cable, I'm all ears...
> 
> The problem w/ continuous flex is that it's very expensive.  So, you need
> to ask yourself if it's worth it?  Usually, I end up going w/ normal cable
> and in this case, some ethernet cable as suggested might work okay.  If
> it's a hobby garage machine, it's probably fine, if it's a 24/7 production
> machine, you might spend the money...
> 
> Mark

Ethernet is cable with good electrical performance, twisted pair for the 
differential signals, it is readily available although quality vary a lot. Some 
certainly have problem with flexibility, I think there need to be many fine 
strands and not a single conductor.

Hobby machine or 24/7 production certainly make a difference. Oil resistance is 
also important. 

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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Chris Albertson]

Ethernet patch cable might work.  This is NOT the same as the kind they
pull though walls.  The in-wall type is solid, the patch kind is stranded
and has RF45 connectors  with over molded strain relief on each end.   I'
think the patch kind would be great if you use the RJ45 connectors on each
end.  You could replace it every 10 years when it fails with another $4
patch cable   Don't try and make you own.The pre-made ones come in any
length from about 12" to 25 feet and they have those over molded train
reliefs.   The common kind of RF45 termination tools work only with the
solid in-wall kind of wire so don't use them.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Mark Johnsen  wrote:

> Allied Electronics has _Continuous Flex_ cable listed and that's what you'd
> want when attaching to a moving axis, whether it's in a cable drag chain or
> not.  Here's the Alpha wire catalog page from Allied Electronics page:
>
> http://www.alliedelec.com/catalog/pf.aspx?fn=1358.pdf
>
> If anyone knows of a better place (cheaper) to get cable, I'm all ears...
>
> The problem w/ continuous flex is that it's very expensive.  So, you need
> to ask yourself if it's worth it?  Usually, I end up going w/ normal cable
> and in this case, some ethernet cable as suggested might work okay.  If
> it's a hobby garage machine, it's probably fine, if it's a 24/7 production
> machine, you might spend the money...
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 8:11 AM, Nicklas Karlsson <
> > nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> How about ordinary ethernet cable?
> >>
> >> On Mon, 17 Oct 2016 14:36:22 +0100
> >> andy pugh  wrote:
> >>
> >> > On 17 October 2016 at 13:53, Ed  wrote:
> >> > > Looking for a very flexible cable for an encoder, 3 pair will work
> >> would
> >> > > like 6 pair.  The cable is in a cable track and gets flexed each
> time
> >> > > the Z moves. Only need about 15 feet but will take more for spares.
> >> >
> >> > Where are you?
> >> >
> >> > You probably want drag-chain cable, maybe look here for part numbers,
> >> > them more locally to purchase.
> >> > https://www.rapidonline.com/drag-chain-cable
> >>
> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[andy pugh]

On 17 October 2016 at 17:17, Mark Johnsen  wrote:
> The problem w/ continuous flex is that it's very expensive.  So, you need
> to ask yourself if it's worth it?  Usually, I end up going w/ normal cable
> and in this case, some ethernet cable as suggested might work okay

I would be concerned about oil resistance with conventional Ethernet.
I used this for my lathe build (for smart-serial cables)
https://www.rapidonline.com/lappkabel-2170489-unitronic-ethernet-blue-data-cable-4x2x0-12mm-od-6-3mm-49-1790

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atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Need recommendation on encoder cable --> Ethernet cable?

[Nicklas Karlsson]

How about ordinary ethernet cable?

On Mon, 17 Oct 2016 14:36:22 +0100
andy pugh  wrote:

> On 17 October 2016 at 13:53, Ed  wrote:
> > Looking for a very flexible cable for an encoder, 3 pair will work would
> > like 6 pair.  The cable is in a cable track and gets flexed each time
> > the Z moves. Only need about 15 feet but will take more for spares.
> 
> Where are you?
> 
> You probably want drag-chain cable, maybe look here for part numbers,
> them more locally to purchase.
> https://www.rapidonline.com/drag-chain-cable
> 
> 
> -- 
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most 
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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