Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures (was: Request for JSON-LD API review))

2013-04-20 Thread Brendan Eich
Ecma does official HTML now. /be Tab Atkins Jr. wrote: unofficial HTML version for everything. ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures

2013-04-18 Thread Anne van Kesteren
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 4:07 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote: Note that Futures are entirely expressible in today's JS semantics. (Not to say that it shouldn't be reviewed by the language gurus here, just saying.) JavaScript does not have an event loop (as I mentioned elsewhere)

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures

2013-04-18 Thread Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote: On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 4:07 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote: Note that Futures are entirely expressible in today's JS semantics. (Not to say that it shouldn't be reviewed by the language gurus here, just

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures

2013-04-18 Thread Kevin Smith
Note that Futures are entirely expressible in today's JS semantics. Even setting aside the event loop, this is arguable. Futures *as implemented in libraries today* are expressible, sure. That's a tautology. But there are cross-cutting issues at play, as Allen explained. In the case of

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures

2013-04-18 Thread Mark S. Miller
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 7:45 AM, Kevin Smith zenpars...@gmail.com wrote: Note that Futures are entirely expressible in today's JS semantics. Even setting aside the event loop, this is arguable. Futures *as implemented in libraries today* are expressible, sure. That's a tautology. But

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures

2013-04-18 Thread Kevin Smith
GC is never required to be complete. We must allow the collector to not collect some unreachable objects. This means that, without .done, there's no guarantee that an unseen-rejection bug will ever get diagnosed. Therefore we still need .done. A perfect example of why the discussion should

RE: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures

2013-04-18 Thread Domenic Denicola
From: Mark S. Miller [erig...@google.com] GC is never required to be complete. We must allow the collector to not collect some unreachable objects. This means that, without .done, there's no guarantee that an unseen-rejection bug will ever get diagnosed. Therefore we still need .done. I

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures

2013-04-18 Thread Kevin Smith
I still think the best solution to this is for the developer tools to curate a list of unhandled rejections. Just like `window.onerror` and the developer console work together to display unhandled exceptions, unhandled rejections could be treated very similarly. They would appear in the

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures

2013-04-18 Thread Kevin Gadd
I'm not sure this is a perfect match, but: The futures library and task scheduler I've been using in my applications for around ~5 years does unhandled error detection and delayed error handling. For the former, the model is that the future has an internal callback that is fired when a consumer

More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures (was: Request for JSON-LD API review))

2013-04-17 Thread David Bruant
[es-discuss only fork] Hi, I'm forking this as I feel it surfaces an issue which I analyse as being rooted in the ECMAScript organization. As I describe my opinion below, please feel free to tell me I'm wrong in my analysis. I'm sorry this is not a technical discussion, but I nonetheless

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures (was: Request for JSON-LD API review))

2013-04-17 Thread Tab Atkins Jr.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:28 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote: I'm also going to ask a pretty violent question, but: does it still need to be spec'ed by ECMA? The only argument I've heard in favor of staying at ECMA is that some people still find ISO standardization and Word/PDF

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures (was: Request for JSON-LD API review))

2013-04-17 Thread Allen Wirfs-Brock
On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:28 AM, David Bruant wrote: ... Although promises were planned for ES7, they weren't part of any formal spec. As far as I know, no recent TC39 meetings even mentioned the concurrency strawman [2]. i don't think the mention observation is totally correct. More

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures (was: Request for JSON-LD API review))

2013-04-17 Thread Allen Wirfs-Brock
On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:48 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote: On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:28 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote: I'm also going to ask a pretty violent question, but: does it still need to be spec'ed by ECMA? The only argument I've heard in favor of staying at ECMA is that some

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures (was: Request for JSON-LD API review))

2013-04-17 Thread Tab Atkins Jr.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Allen Wirfs-Brock al...@wirfs-brock.com wrote: Note that there is an official HTML version http://www.ecma-international.org/ecma-262/5.1/ Thanks! This apparently has bad google-juice, and is not linked prominently in the first couple results that I look at

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures

2013-04-17 Thread David Bruant
Le 17/04/2013 21:03, Allen Wirfs-Brock a écrit : On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:28 AM, David Bruant wrote: ... Although promises were planned for ES7, they weren't part of any formal spec. As far as I know, no recent TC39 meetings even mentioned the concurrency strawman [2]. i don't think the

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures

2013-04-17 Thread Allen Wirfs-Brock
On Apr 17, 2013, at 2:25 PM, David Bruant wrote: Le 17/04/2013 21:03, Allen Wirfs-Brock a écrit : On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:28 AM, David Bruant wrote: ... Although promises were planned for ES7, they weren't part of any formal spec. As far as I know, no recent TC39 meetings even mentioned

Re: More flexibility in the ECMAScript part? (was: Re: Futures

2013-04-17 Thread Tab Atkins Jr.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Allen Wirfs-Brock al...@wirfs-brock.com wrote: A a rule of thumb, if a library does something that can not be expressed in the its base language there is a good chance it is extending the virtual machine of the language and it should at least be reviewed from