Hi Nick For the sake of full disclosure I should say that UK Ultimate is currently working on the details for setting up the Terms of Reference for a GA committee to work on this area. We held discussions about GAs at our AGM/conference in 2015 and 2016 after the two World Championships in the UK. That work is ongoing; we will publish the plans for that group in the next few weeks, and offer all our members further opportunities to engage in that discussion.
I'd like to pickup on a few bits of your email: *Demand* > *Who actually wants the GA's? And why? And are there no other solutions > that would achieve the same or similar results, which don't require > referees for every game?* > [SH]* I think this document published by WFDF describes significant work that went into looking at those questions:* http://www.wfdf.org/files/WFDF_SOTG_Task_Force_Final_ Recommendations_FINAL_Report.pdf > *The USAU "observers" are referees by another name.* > [SH]* I do not agree with that statement. I understand that not everyone agrees with me, but I hope you will consider that I have arrived at that position after quite a bit of research and a great deal of soul-searching and thought. * > *I would be greatly disappointed in Ultimate if "observers" were > introduced internationally. GA's are a step in that direction.* > [SH] *Whilst I think USAU's observer programme has plenty of good points, I would also prefer that it was not adopted within the WFDF rules. I am strongly in favour of the view that the player should have the final say. I think that WFDF has been very clear about it's intention to stay on the "player decides" side of that line.* *It is my opinion that GAs were a sensible step to help WFDF, its member federations and playing community to protect that line. Rather than being a step in the direction of something you would call a referee, I think they are helping to prevent the highest level of the sport being forcibly dragged to that place. * > > *Cost * > Who pays? Tournaments are already expensive. > [SH] *I disagree with that statement. The majority of the weekend-long major outdoor events in the UK will cost approx £220 per team in 2018. I think the sums stack up pretty well on value for money right now if you exclude the cost of travel (which isn't really relevant to this question).* > Adding 2+ GA's per pitch would increase the costs exponentially. As well > as putting huge demands on the TD/TOC to manage them. > If only adding GA's to a limited number of pitches, then some will want to > know why they're paying for GA's they never see (whether that's a benefit > or a hindrance.) > [SH] *This is a big jump and I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that WFDF intends to do that. There is no plan to put GAs on each field for each game. * *There are often services at a tournament that only some people end up receiving. Medical cover is one. Another example that has received very little push back from the playing community is that players (mostly) pay for the cost of live-streaming the event at which they are playing. This cost is much higher than the cost of any current or likely level of GA attendance. * *In the end I think players will judge the value for money on whether the programme as a whole is felt to have a positive impact (which admittedly won't be known up front). If your team never sees a GA, but a team that notoriously didn't know the rules gets some attention and ends up being more fun to play against, you may feel the programme was positive. You might feel that other team should have borne the cost - but perhaps we could come back to that as an implementation detail. * *I think that one of the criteria the head GA is thinking about when allocating the GAs across games at a WFDF event is the spread across all the teams (or at least countries) at the event. * > At the end of the day, players will be paying for GA's, if they're > introduced. But they should at the least be given the opportunity to say > whether they want them or not, rather than it being presented as a given > that there will be GA's. Saying that people can attend or boycott > tournaments with/without GA's isn't reasonable when those are national / > WUCC / EBUCC level events which have no alternatives. > [SH] *Yes this is a good point. Certainly the UKU tried to do this but got little take up actually. No doubt the formal creation of a GA committee will provide a new focus for us to revisit that discussion as a community. * > > Regarding the positive impact of GA's at Perth, what did they do to have > that impact? Was it simply their presence, or did they have an active role? > [SH] *Did you watch some of the games with GAs? What is your opinion? I think there were a number of examples of stopping intractable discussions (direct improvement for spectators, indirect benefit to players as it prevented emotional escalation). Maybe some of the players in those games could relate their experiences (good and bad) * > Could that not have been replicated in some other manner, without GA's? ie > more emphasis on Spirit, stronger leadership from the coaching team, even > penalties for flagrantly breaching rules, sanctions against individual > players / teams for poor spirit, etc > [SH] *I think WFDF has done a lot to try to put more emphasis on SOTG. * *Enforcing strong leadership from the coaching team is something that I'm sure all National Federations are thinking about. In the UKU Level 1 coaching course we have further increased the amount of time we spend discussing the coaches' role in promoting and protecting self-officiation and SOTG. I can't speak for the content of coaching courses in other countries. * "...penalties for flagrantly breaching rules, sanctions against individual players / teams for poor spirit, etc ..." *This still leaves you with the problem of determining the process for implementing that sort of penalty. Who decides? On what basis? Do they receive any training to help them practice watching a game for "flagrant breaches"? Do they receive any training for how to communicate with a player or team that is accused of flagrant breaches? * > > While Ultimate is primarily ruled by Spirit, I'm sure everyone has played > a match with/against someone who didn't represent the ideals of Spirit. The > issue I have with the current system is that lack of Spirit isn't recorded > or reflected anywhere for future matches, and generally there isn't any > feedback given to that player's captains / team. I've personally told > people that they aren't welcome to play with my team again unless they > respect SOTG. > GA's / "observers" / referees take, at least some of, the responsibility > for policing Spirit away from the players. > [SH] *OR the GA provides us with an *additional* mechanism to support teams, players, coaches that need a bit of help. Teams might need help for all sorts of reasons - I'm not making a judgement about their morals. * *We'll be putting out a post soon about recruiting new members to the UKU SOTG committee so please look out for that.* *Si* > > Regards > Nick Bond > (me, not my team, or anyone else) > > On 26 February 2018 at 12:42, Simon Hill <si.h...@ukultimate.com> wrote: > >> I watched some of the games at WU24 in Perth and my impression was that >> the GAs provided helpful support in some of the more difficult situations. >> One of the games where the GA really helped IMO was between Germany and >> Italy open teams - where they had an incredible (but also very tense) >> sudden death point. The main benefit - again just IMO - the GA provided >> was by *indirectly* helping the teams to keep emotional responses to >> contested calls under control, and I think that helped the two teams to >> play a really fantastic and dramatic last point. Congratulations to both >> teams and the GAs in that match. >> >> For the folks here that are strongly against the GA programme: did you >> watch some of those games in Perth? What did you think of the impact of >> GAs in those games? Mostly I saw no impact (which is the ideal that the >> GAs are hoping for). And in a few cases I saw a very positive impact. >> >> Si >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Si Hill, UK Ultimate >> si.h...@ukultimate.com >> Tel: 0844 8045949 <0844%20804%205949> >> Mob: 07802 311298 >> Skype: sihill22 >> >> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 10:53 AM, Patrick van der Valk (BULA) < >> patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org> wrote: >> >>> Agreed. Part of Spirit is respectful communication. We clearly all care. >>> Please stay civil. >>> >>> >>> >>> Having said this, the essence of Mirko’s comment is correct. Some people >>> are not in Facebook and if the discussion started here, we not also >>> continue it here on the mailing list? >>> >>> >>> >>> I would be interested in getting some views from the EUF on the topic as >>> well as my initial question: what problem are you trying to solve in >>> Europe? This is clearly not North America and the EUF championships show, >>> IMHO, that GA’s are not (yet) needed in Europe. I think player education is >>> more effective, something that got completely lost in the US with the use >>> of Observers, as they are now the people that are maintaining Spirit (and >>> using budget money). >>> >>> >>> >>> Liam, I know it is tough dealing with multiple communication platforms, >>> but that is a sign of the times. I would be grateful if you (or others from >>> the WFDF) could also continue the conversation here. >>> >>> >>> >>> TIA >>> >>> >>> >>> Patrick >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* EuroDisc [mailto:eurodisc-boun...@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de] *On >>> Behalf Of *Robert Jablko >>> *Sent:* Monday, February 26, 2018 10:38 AM >>> *To:* eurodisc@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de >>> *Subject:* Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors >>> >>> >>> >>> It seems there are a lot of emotions concerning the advisor topic, and >>> that should be discussed, here or somewhere else, but I strongy feel that >>> neither Liam or anybody else in ultimate deserves any kind of hostility. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, Robse >>> >>> ------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Former chair of Rules and SOTG comitee, Germany >>> >>> >>> >>> 2018-02-26 11:22 GMT+01:00 Mirko Macke <bat...@zedat.fu-berlin.de>: >>> >>> are you deaf? can't you read? The dsicussion needs to take place on the >>> email group. This one. >>> >>> I think I made this clear. >>> >>> I am not gonna join any discussion on FB. Why? I made this clar as well. >>> >>> Keep the spirit! >>> Mirko, YeaHaw! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > Hi Mirko, >>> > >>> > My personal oppinion is actually an email list and a Facebook group are >>> > both terrible places for a discussion. But thats just my opinion. I'm >>> not >>> > hosting or directing any type of discussion - I'm just happy and >>> > encouraging of one taking place and when I can I'll personally get >>> > involved >>> > with my experiences and POV. >>> > >>> > Where would you like a discussion to take place? >>> > >>> > Liam >>> > >>> > Just to make it really clear. I sent a message to several locations >>> about >>> > looking for support from TOCs. That started a conversation that I am >>> not >>> > coordinating :) people are free to discuss however, wherever they >>> like. I >>> > also did not invent the GA system. I was not a part of the task force. >>> > There person who did, and was has opened a discussion on Facebook if >>> you'd >>> > like to join in. >>> > >>> > On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 at 10:04, Mirko Macke <bat...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> hello, >>> >> >>> >> I couldn't care lees how nice a message is. People were invited and - >>> >> tbh >>> >> - asked to continue the discussion on the actual email group. >>> >> >>> >> FB is the LAST tool to discuss anything meaningless. >>> >> >>> >> But instead you went there. The place of meaninglesness. >>> >> >>> >> Greetings from Berlin, >>> >> >>> >> Mirko, YeaHaw! >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> > Hey Patrick, >>> >> > >>> >> > Ruben has offered to discuss things on the ED Facebook group. He >>> wrote >>> >> a >>> >> > nice messages there :) >>> >> > >>> >> > I'm afraid that my time is extreamly limited at the moment due to >>> work >>> >> and >>> >> > life commitments. Also Ruben knows more about the topic so he's a >>> good >>> >> > person to speak for/to. >>> >> > >>> >> > I'll reply as often as I can. >>> >> > >>> >> > If anyone asks a question directly to me, I'll obviously answer it >>> >> (given >>> >> > time). >>> >> > >>> >> > Regards, liam >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 at 07:51, oliver browne <ojhbro...@gmail.com> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> >> Hi Patrick, >>> >> >> >>> >> >> The conversation seems to have moved to the >>> >> Ultimate-Players-in-Europe >>> >> >> FB >>> >> >> group, where the lead of the WFDF Rules committee, and the outgoing >>> >> SotG >>> >> >> chair have made themselves available for questions. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Hope to see you & Sofia on the beach (Costa Brava perhaps?), or in >>> >> the >>> >> >> UPE >>> >> >> FB group :) >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Kind regards, >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Oliver >>> >> >> >>> >> > -- >>> >> > >>> >> > Sincerely, Liam Kelly >>> >> > >>> >> > Call me. +44 (0) 7595 618 129 <+44%207595%20618129> >>> >> > Tweet me. @WordsFromLiam >>> >> > ---------- >>> >> > Make Liverpool, >>> >> > 34 Regent Street >>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=34+Regent+Street&entry=gmail&source=g>, >>> >> > North Docks, >>> >> > Liverpool L3 7BN >>> >> > >>> >> > *What's relevant to you?* >>> >> > CEO - Make Liverpool (www.makeliverpool.com) >>> >> > Chair - Baltic Triangle, Liverpool (http://baltictriangle.co.uk/) >>> >> > Coach Educator for UK Ultimate and World Flying Disc Federation >>> >> > Game Advisor Committee for WFDF >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > EuroDisc mailing list >>> >> > eurod...@ira.uka.de >>> >> > http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> > >>> > Sincerely, Liam Kelly >>> > >>> > Call me. +44 (0) 7595 618 129 <+44%207595%20618129> >>> > Tweet me. @WordsFromLiam >>> > ---------- >>> > Make Liverpool, >>> > 34 Regent Street >>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=34+Regent+Street&entry=gmail&source=g>, >>> > North Docks, >>> > Liverpool L3 7BN >>> > >>> > *What's relevant to you?* >>> > CEO - Make Liverpool (www.makeliverpool.com) >>> > Chair - Baltic Triangle, Liverpool (http://baltictriangle.co.uk/) >>> > Coach Educator for UK Ultimate and World Flying Disc Federation >>> > Game Advisor Committee for WFDF >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> EuroDisc mailing list >>> eurod...@ira.uka.de >>> http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> EuroDisc mailing list >>> eurod...@ira.uka.de >>> http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> EuroDisc mailing list >> eurod...@ira.uka.de >> http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc >> > >
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