Re: Testing Location
In a message dated 10/26/2002 7:48:28 PM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The safest, most accessible (easy hike from a road that is open for much of the year) and thickest glacier in the lower 48 states is on Mt. Rainier, less than 3 hours from downtown seattle. Hmm... that's a good idea. Does Rainier have thick, unmoving ice on it? I used to live in Seattle and Tacoma, but I never actually spent any time on or near Rainier. Can you get us some facts and figures on Rainier? -- John
Re: that Zimmerman IEEE article
I may start breaking it down and E-mailing it to this group in serial form, to provide us with some guidance on what probably will and will not work. (It's much too long to send as a single piece.) == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Discovery Channel
In a message dated 10/26/2002 10:58:54 PM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
By the way, regarding some of the suggestions being floated around by this
group's members: the current plan is to indeed give the Cryobot some ability
to veer slowly to the side to avoid obstacles detected by radar and/or sonar
below it, using several different jets of hot water (NOT steam) pumped down
through different spots spaced around the nose. (Pumped jets of hot water
have also turned out to be far more efficient at melting through ice than
simply heating the Cryobot's metal nose is; they're now part of the standard
design.)
Isn't it funny, that we've somehow stumbled across the same answers to our dilemma, and we're not getting paid 6 figures a year for it?
Also, there will have to be some peripheral small jets of hot
water on the Cryobot's sides to keep the meltwater layer from refreezing
around them before the Cryobot has slid all the way down through.
Yes. I'm thinking the following: what we're shooting for is for our little torpedo to grease its way through the borehole. This can be accomplished by 2 things:
1) spray teflon on the sides of the model. It's cheap, and the damned stuff will work. And, it's heat resistant.
2) we need to have the sides wet, in a sense, floating the model in a layer of its own meltwater as it slides down and along. I suspect that the model should therefore have a jet in its nose, and 4 jets in its tail. A jet at the nose bores a small hole. The 4 jets at the rear propel the model, and through gravity, provide water to the sides. The water doesn't have to be hot, just warmer than the ice.
If the rear jets can be timed correctly, the entire model may have a spin imparted to it, which will reduce friction even more, and assist the model to literally drill its way through the ice... I'm thinking that we can stamp spiraled grooves deeply into the sides of the model, and attach a heavy bit to the front.
Consider: any ice field on Earth, or on Europa, is liable to have rocks and boulders (or asteroids, in the case of Europa) scattered throughout like raisins in pudding. This model has got to move, therefore... and, it's got to be able to kick past gravel... so a drill shaped exterior may be a necessity.
I did some more thinking about the 'steam issue'. I agree, steam is not necessary, considering that if/when this thing gets ice frozen over it, it will generate hydraulic pressure. So, the model has got to be very sturdy, and very streamlined.
Speed is not the issue, and too much heat would possibly be counterproductive, as the model might hit a rock, stop, and then be so damned hot that a cavity is created around it before it can get around the rock, thereby stranding the model in a water bubble under 50' of ice.
It's got to move, but it's got to move SLOW. Temperature of the model should probably be about 30 degrees faranheit warmer than the ice.
As for those radio transponders, J. Michael Parenti is right: the plan is to
have each one, on release from the Cryobot's rear, automatically extend
several spring-loaded prongs to anchor itself to the walls of the ice tunnel
(which is bound to freeze solid again just a fraction of a meter behind the
Cryobot). But they will have to be very low frequency to transmit through
ice -- so LF that I doubt they're available commercially.
We don't need the world. We just need some animal transponders, such as they attach to the ears of wildlife. There have got to be some radio hobbyists out there who can tell us how to make them low frequency.
Although a standard transponder would probably work in 100-200' of ice, such as we are likely to work with, we also would like to demonstrate workability on Europa... so we should shoot for as close to the real demands as possible.
Spring-prong anchors hmm... I was thinking that if they were shot or rocketed into the slush at the rear, that the slush itself would be enough anchor, particularly if they were roped to one another:
0--0--0--0-//-{==
Here, the // marks represent a slush and ice core refreezing behind the model.
Can the transponders relay a signal? Would it help if they were wired together with a thin filament?
A pity the Icepick site doesn't have a file vault to store files sent to it
by the readers: I'd love to read out and store that IEEE Aerospace piece by
Zimmerman et al, which is an extremely detailed and up to date description
of how NASA's own Cryobot design is evolving. See his JPL Technical Paper,
though, as a partial substitute.
Talk to Gail and Hibai about that. We REALLY need a file vault for technical proposals. I'd also love to see your Europa websites list become part of the Icepick website, as a sort of 'library' category.
-- John Harlow Byrne
Re: Discovery Channel
Title: Re: Discovery Channel John, et al., As some of you may know, I have my feet in both camps, being a professional grant chaser, to put it politely, and an amateur, in the devotee and hopefully, not incompetent sense of the word. So, let me do some talking to Scott and Frank. If any of you have questions to put to them directly, please e-mail them (see my last posting). They are nice people. One thing that comes to mind is a meeting someplace (other than cyberspace) to brainstorm and perhaps a bunch of us tagging along the next time they (the NASA-funded ones) decide to do a field test. This could also run in the reverse, with us inviting them! Either way, it's important for those that care about this endeavor to get together and share ideas. You don't have to have a Ph.D. or be a NASA-funded scientist to have a good idea. Gary In a message dated 10/26/2002 9:38:21 PM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A program on the Discovery channel 95 Worlds and Counting said that NASA was funding a crybot design and mission. (Had some very nice computer graphics of what it would look like and do as well) Is this still true? I thought they cut that funding a while ago. Considering future Europa missions is not the same thing as funding future robotic missions. If those designs are out there, where are they? Two key points: the word 'future', suggests 'someday, when/if we get the technology, we might do something like this'. Forget it. This is not about someday. This is about NOW. This is the future. It's 2002. The parts are out there. They just require someone to assemble them. Why not us? Point #2: if you get a giant agency involved, you'll spend a lot of time writing proposals, waiting for a committee to approve them, and so forth. This is a small website, run by a bunch of dedicated space nerds. We are not JPL, nor do we have the time or money to masquerade as such. Personally, the only interest I have in a large agency is a hands off grant. However, I'm just one individual, and this project involves all of us. What do the rest of you think? I'd be happy to involve JPL and a apply for a NASA grant, if we have the weight here to make such a proposal tenable, and if we can make it a hands off grant. Gary, can you look into this? -- John
Re: Discovery Channel
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Discovery Channel In a message dated 10/26/2002 10:58:54 PM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I did some more thinking about the 'steam issue'. I agree, steam is not necessary, considering that if/when this thing gets ice frozen over it, it will generate hydraulic pressure. So, the model has got to be very sturdy, and very streamlined. Speed is not the issue, and too much heat would possibly be counterproductive, as the model might hit a rock, stop, and then be so damned hot that a cavity is created around it before it can get around the rock, thereby stranding the model in a water bubble under 50' of ice.It's got to move, but it's got to move SLOW. Temperature of the model should probably be about 30 degrees faranheit warmer than the ice. There's a VERY serious misconception developing here -- every Cryobot design ever developed simply melts the ice beneath its nose, and then uses gravity to descend. Rear steam-jet propulsion would be incredibly inefficient in providing a very small amount of additional downward motive force,given the amount of energy needed to boil ice (fully 8 times more than is needed to melt it) -- you'd do infinitelybetter just to use any heat source powerful enough to do that to just melt the ice below the Cryobot's nose faster instead. (By the way, the Cryobot does NOT generate "hydraulic pressure" when it melts ice -- quite apart from the fact that any such pressure would be in every direction anyway, remember that water ice is one of the very few substances that SHRINKS when it melts.) __ __ Can the transponders relay a signal? Would it help if they were wired together with a thin filament? __ They certainly wouldn't be wired together in any real Europa Cryobot -- the whole reason for using them rather than a thin communcations cable from the cryobot to the surface is that (1) any such cable, even if very thin, will add a huge chunk to the Cryobot's weight and volume; and (2) given that there are probably slow motions within Europa's ice layer, any cable that wasn't elastic would be quickly broken by shear stress. (The plan is to space the transponders about 1 km apart.)
Re: Discovery Channel
(By the way, the Cryobot does NOT generate hydraulic pressure when it melts ice -- quite apart from the fact that any such pressure would be in every direction anyway, remember that water ice is one of the very few substances that SHRINKS when it melts.) Ah, here I must disagree with you. Ice can actually increase in size as it melts. If the pressure is high enough, ice changes into other states then the one we're used to (ice I). For instance; the reason why it hard to go skating outside when it colder than -20 degrees celcius is because the ice doesn't melt under the skates, but changes into another state (ice III, if I'm not mistaken). Ice III is actually heavier than liquid water, and will thus expand when melted. So there is a real possibility that there will be some extra pressure on the hull of the cryobot. Though it's possible that this extra pressure might be negligable. And for the working model it's probably not a factor that need to be considered. Ice I changes to ice III (or was it IIa?) when the temperature drops below -20 degrees celcius and the pressure reaches a certain level. On Europa it's a high risk/probability that the probe will encounter other forms of ice. - Marcus == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
the name...
Hi All, Is there really any need to come up with a new name? If you go to the current website's main page http://klx.com/europa/, you will see that our group is really called IcePIC (Ice Penetrator Internet Committee) and the probe is called Icepick. This was voted on in the early days when it was changed from the original name that Larry Klaes had proposed when he first started this group, and I see no reason to change it now. :-) Thanks, Julie Edwards == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
No power sources available
On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Two key points: the word 'future', suggests 'someday, when/if we get the technology, we might do something like this'. Forget it. This is not about someday. This is about NOW. This is the future. It's 2002. The parts are out there. They just require someone to assemble them. Why not us? John, I have to disagree. As Bruce I think mentioned, it was determined long ago that the only way to get through the Europa icecap was with a radioactive power source. We don't *have* sufficient radioactive power sources (RTGs) to do Pluto, a Europa orbiter and the Icepick mission. Further, given our lack of ability to produce Pu-238 currently any mission is going to be very expensive because we have to purchase the Pu-238 from the Russians (and they aren't making it available cheaply). Last time I checked there weren't electrical power lines running up to glaciers in Alaska or Mt. Ranier. Precisely *how* do you plan to get through the ice? Are you going to run a couple of plastic hoses from the probe to the surface so you can keep pouring gasoline and pumping oxygen down to some 2-cycle model airplane engine to generate heat? That doesn't sound like a realistic scenario to get people interested in a real Europa mission. It sounds like a stunt by a bunch of space enthusiasts. Go do the research on what is available (most of the info is on the web under RTGs, AMTEC, advanced radioisotope power systems, etc.). NASA and the DOE are working on improved power sources, but their last attempt (the AMTEC [alkali-metal-thermal-to-electric conversion] project) has to my knowledge been defunded [Note 1]. Robert Some URLs: http://www.ans.org/pubs/magazines/nn/pdfs/1999-4-3.pdf (Has nice discussion of history and future space missions) http://nuclear.gov/space/space-desc.html http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/03sept_spacepower.htm http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/presrep95/energy.htm (There are a lot more references if you search on things like AMTEC, Pu-238 and RTG). Notes: 1. See Page 51 of DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY FISCAL YEAR 2002 BUDGET REQUEST http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy72106.000/hsy72106_0.htm == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Working Model
I am happy to see that this is moving and could result on something real, but I think we are somehow trying to actually go faster than we can. Talking about the ralisation of an actual model sounds good, but I think all this requires a big conceptual work and planning work. Usually every engineering project spends more time on paper than on testing. Therefore, we need a planner. A detailed description of each component, and of course, a list of components. Something else: we don't have the technology required to build a cryobot for europa. This is highly expensive and inaccessible technology. Only a high tech research institute or a space/governmental agency can gain access to it. So: What is left for us? We can do a lot on conceptual design. We can defince necessities, we can addapt other proposed bots (on a conceptual level), we can do mission planning as a simulation to see inconvenients. (...) -- Hibai Unzueta P.D.: If any website is needed I can help but I must say that we nned to keep ourselves practical and not forget what the actual crude reality is. - Original Message - From: Gail Leatherwood To: Europa Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 7:32 PM Subject: Working Model I seem to have volunteered to help organize and circulate the ideas we've come up with. I'll start working on a data base since I don't have anything else to do but sit around drinking beer and watching TV (yeah, right!) I suggest we call the project Hot Nose, since that's what the design seems to be suggesting. (No, no! Not Snot Nose! Good grief!) I suggest that anyone with any ideas or other contributions simply keep posting them on this discussion group. I will capture them and begin organizing them into the various components like Vessel, Guidance System, Electronics, Communication, etc., depending on what we come up with. Then we can begin identifying sources of hardware/software and start hunting for what we need. John's note about the model submarine hobbyist web site is excellent--I've added it to my Favorites list. It has a ton of info on who's making and selling parts for model submarines. Check it out. I also suggest someone get in touch with Nat'l Geographic, Smithsonian, and The Discovery Channel (another Byrne idea, not mine) to see if anyone would be interested in following the project. We might also check with the educational system to identify school science competitions. Each of us can check with our local high schools to see if any of them would be interested. I'll try to keep up with the documentation of the project, for I think that will be critical for both our own developmental use and possible publicity. Oh, a couple pesky questions: In whose garage will we build Hot Nose? And if we're scattered all over the US and other countries (like Hibai Unzueta in Spain) how are we going to get enough of us together to actually handle the assembly? Not insurmountable, but getting to Alaska might be like the gold rushers converging on the Chilkoot Pass. OK, your turn. Gail PS: Thanks, Bruce for your encyclopedic reference on Icepick related works. I envy your library! GBL == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Fw: This Week On Galileo - October 21-27, 2002
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 1:44 AM To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: This Week On Galileo - October 21-27, 2002 This Week on GalileoOctober 21-27, 2002The Pace QuickensThe science observation sequence for Galileo's final satellite encounter begins this week. On Monday, October 21, the Fields and Particles suite of instruments is turned on and configured to collect continuous data for the next three weeks. During this time, the spacecraft passes the tiny inner moon Amalthea, and passes closer to Jupiter than any spacecraft since Pioneer 10 and 11 sped by nearly three decades ago. The instruments participating in the Galileo data collection are the Dust Detector, the Energetic Particle Detector, the Heavy Ion Counter, the Magnetometer, the Plasma Subsystem, and the Plasma Wave Subsystem.While these data are being collected, occasional gaps in the ground communications antenna coverage require the data to be stored in an on-board computer memory buffer, and when that buffer fills, the data are copied onto the tape recorder for later playback. To prepare for these buffer dumps, the tape is moved on Monday to the correct position to begin recording. Over the next two weeks the buffer is dumped to tape 14 times.On Thursday, October 24, a test of the gyroscopes that help determine the spacecraft attitude is performed. This test will help engineers decide if any of the software parameters that are used to process the gyro data need to be updated before the maneuver that will occur next week.On Friday, October 25, routine maintenance of the propulsion system is performed. Also on that day the spacecraft closes to within 100 Jupiter radii (7.1 million kilometers or 4.4 million miles) of the giant planet.Finally, on Sunday, October 27, the sequence of commands that will govern spacecraft activity during the week of the close Amalthea flyby will be transmitted to Galileo.For more information on the Galileo spacecraft and its mission to Jupiter,please visit the Galileo home page at one of the following URL's:http://galileo.jpl.nasa.govhttp://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo
Hot Nose
Just so we don't get carried away: We're looking at a small scale model, built of "off the shelf" components, and using easily available power supply. We don't have the capability of creating sophisticated automated assemblies and timing devices that require microminiaturization, and especially exotic materials made of that wondrous substance known to the trade as "unobtainium." Therefore, we don't need to wonder about nuclear power sources and such like that will no doubt be used in the real thing if and when it ever gets up to Europa. What we're after is something that will demonstrate the feasibility of a machine that can penetrate a layer of frozen water ice, send signals to the surface about its location and condition, and stay intact long enough to prove it can be done. If it can be done with simple materials and common construction techniques, we can show that it can be done (and maybe how) in full size millions of miles from here. For example, we could talk to our local high school science teachers about having the young people experiment with just heating up some object and recording what it takes to melt its way through a 50-lb. block of ice. We've all seen amazing things done like this, so why don't we try it? Name: Not bad idea to just keep the Icepick name. "Proteus" has a nice ring. "The Proteus Group" is workable; maybe better than the "Hot Nose Group." If the energy generated so far could be harnessed, itwould probably power our machine, so let's keep it up! Gail (the guy) Leatherwood
Fw: Latest News from the Astrobiology Magazine
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Latest News from the Astrobiology Magazine Galileo Flyby: Extreme Explorers Hall of FameThe Jupiter probe, Galileo, is this week's selection for the Extreme Explorers Hall of Fame. In the next ten days, the robotic spacecraft flies within 100 miles of the unusual moon, Almathea, which gives off more heat than it receives. As Galileo has filled its mission objectives and is running low on maneuvering fuel, NASA plans to crash the spacecraft into Jupiter during 2003. Display Options |Full story... | | | | | | | | | This article comes from the Astrobiology Magazinehttp://www.astrobio.net/news/ The link for this story is: http://www.astrobio.net/news/article300.htmlFri Oct 25 00:25:43 PDT 2002 Most Recent Mars | Earth | Moon | Sun
Re: Latest News from the Astrobiology Magazine
- Original Message - From: LARRY KLAES To: europa Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 10:54 AM Subject: Fw: Latest News from the Astrobiology Magazine The Jupiter probe, Galileo, is this week's selection for the Extreme Explorers Hall of Fame. In the next ten days, the robotic spacecraft flies within 100 miles of the unusual moon, Almathea, which gives off more heat than it receives. As Galileo has filled its mission objectives and is running low on maneuvering fuel, NASA plans to crash the spacecraft into Jupiter during 2003. _ Dear God, why do they always call it Almathea? As for that persistent story that the Voyagers' IR measurements show it emitting excess heat: it's intriguing, but I've never heard anything about Galileo confirming it. I'll ask Phil Stooke (arguably the leading Amalthea specialist) about it. == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Discovery Channel
- Original Message - From: Marcus Robertsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Europa Icepick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 5:22 AM Subject: Re: Discovery Channel (By the way, the Cryobot does NOT generate hydraulic pressure when it melts ice -- quite apart from the fact that any such pressure would be in every direction anyway, remember that water ice is one of the very few substances that SHRINKS when it melts.) Ah, here I must disagree with you. Ice can actually increase in size as it melts. If the pressure is high enough, ice changes into other states then the one we're used to (ice I). For instance; the reason why it hard to go skating outside when it colder than -20 degrees celcius is because the ice doesn't melt under the skates, but changes into another state (ice III, if I'm not mistaken). Ice III is actually heavier than liquid water, and will thus expand when melted. So there is a real possibility that there will be some extra pressure on the hull of the cryobot. Though it's possible that this extra pressure might be negligable. And for the working model it's probably not a factor that need to be considered. Ice I changes to ice III (or was it IIa?) when the temperature drops below -20 degrees celcius and the pressure reaches a certain level. On Europa it's a high risk/probability that the probe will encounter other forms of ice. Actually, this question is pretty much settled -- every piece I've seen on the subject says that the pressure even at the base of a solid 100-km layer of ice (in the case that Europa has no ocean) is seriously inadequate to produce any kind of ice other than Ice I (especially since the cryogenically low temperature of Europa's surface ice almost certainly rises to almost 0 deg C once you are deeper than a few kilometers). So that, at least, is one complication that the Europa Cryobot won't have to deal with. Ganymede and Callisto are different matters -- their possible subsurface oceans are probably sandwiched between a layer of Ice I above and Ice III below. == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Ice phases, etc.
I could be wrong, but a thin layer of pure salt or rock will trump any phase changes ice can muster, penetrating Icepick-wise. Also, why worry about the power source for a demo? Just use a surface gas-powered generator and a tethered cable. It's ugly, but if you back-fill the hole with kerosene, it won't refreeze. That's how the ice-boring folk do it down Antarctica-way. And another: oceanographers and the military use XBTs for recording the thermal structure of the ocean. The XBT (eXpendable Bathy-Thermograph) has a reel of thin conducting wire that plays out as it goes down, so if used in a re-freezing hole, who cares as long as the probe continues to move in the ice? There may be a problem with the resistive load on the wire(s) to maintain a hot probe, however. Gary - Original Message - From: Marcus Robertsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Europa Icepick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 5:22 AM Subject: Re: Discovery Channel (By the way, the Cryobot does NOT generate hydraulic pressure when it melts ice -- quite apart from the fact that any such pressure would be in every direction anyway, remember that water ice is one of the very few substances that SHRINKS when it melts.) Ah, here I must disagree with you. Ice can actually increase in size as it melts. If the pressure is high enough, ice changes into other states then the one we're used to (ice I). For instance; the reason why it hard to go skating outside when it colder than -20 degrees celcius is because the ice doesn't melt under the skates, but changes into another state (ice III, if I'm not mistaken). Ice III is actually heavier than liquid water, and will thus expand when melted. So there is a real possibility that there will be some extra pressure on the hull of the cryobot. Though it's possible that this extra pressure might be negligable. And for the working model it's probably not a factor that need to be considered. Ice I changes to ice III (or was it IIa?) when the temperature drops below -20 degrees celcius and the pressure reaches a certain level. On Europa it's a high risk/probability that the probe will encounter other forms of ice. Actually, this question is pretty much settled -- every piece I've seen on the subject says that the pressure even at the base of a solid 100-km layer of ice (in the case that Europa has no ocean) is seriously inadequate to produce any kind of ice other than Ice I (especially since the cryogenically low temperature of Europa's surface ice almost certainly rises to almost 0 deg C once you are deeper than a few kilometers). So that, at least, is one complication that the Europa Cryobot won't have to deal with. Ganymede and Callisto are different matters -- their possible subsurface oceans are probably sandwiched between a layer of Ice I above and Ice III below. == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice phases, etc.
On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Gary McMurtry wrote: Also, why worry about the power source for a demo? Because if it isn't realistic enough it gets labeled a 'joke'. Its a no brainer that if I stick a radiative ball on the top of a glacier connected to an endless supply of steam that its going to melt its way to the bottom of the glacier. The trick is to do this on a moon orbiting a giant planet halfway across the solar system! Just use a surface gas-powered generator and a tethered cable. It's ugly, but if you back-fill the hole with kerosene, it won't refreeze. That's how the ice-boring folk do it down Antarctica-way. Oh yes, I bet the EI review panel will *love* that solution. You are going to contaminate our pristine pretty all-natural glacier with *what*? What flys in Antarctica isn't likely to fly in a National Park or Forrest. Its only been in the last couple of decades that the NSF has begun to clean up the environmental mess that the bases have left in the Antarctic. I've got no idea whether other governments are cleaning up the messes at their bases. And another: oceanographers and the military use XBTs for recording the thermal structure of the ocean. The XBT (eXpendable Bathy-Thermograph) has a reel of thin conducting wire that plays out as it goes down, so if used in a re-freezing hole, who cares as long as the probe continues to move in the ice? Are we talking electrical heating of the probe tip here or something a little more energetic? In either case you have the problem of the ice refreezing and cutting off your energy source. There may be a problem with the resistive load on the wire(s) to maintain a hot probe, however. The problem is being able to continually extend the wires once they are frozen in the ice unless you make them out of a resistive material that keeps the layer around the wires unfrozen. I suspect in that case you are going to require a *lot* of energy which in turn means a *lot* of fuel. There are some serious calculations that need to be done before I'll take this idea seriously. To start with: 1) How much ice do you want to go through? 2) How many joules will it take to melt that much ice? (depends of course on the probe diameter.) 3) How many joules will it take to keep the power supply cables, pipes, etc. for the probe free of refreezing? (probably depends a lot on how much ice you want to go through.) If you start thinking about these things and the unknowns on Europa you begin to realize *why* a radioactive power source was viewed as the only alternative. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice phases, etc.
- Original Message - From: Robert J. Bradbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: Re: Ice phases, etc. On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Gary McMurtry wrote: And another: oceanographers and the military use XBTs for recording the thermal structure of the ocean. The XBT (eXpendable Bathy-Thermograph) has a reel of thin conducting wire that plays out as it goes down, so if used in a re-freezing hole, who cares as long as the probe continues to move in the ice? Are we talking electrical heating of the probe tip here or something a little more energetic? In either case you have the problem of the ice refreezing and cutting off your energy source. There may be a problem with the resistive load on the wire(s) to maintain a hot probe, however. The problem is being able to continually extend the wires once they are frozen in the ice unless you make them out of a resistive material that keeps the layer around the wires unfrozen. I suspect in that case you are going to require a *lot* of energy which in turn means a *lot* of fuel. There are some serious calculations that need to be done before I'll take this idea seriously. To start with: 1) How much ice do you want to go through? 2) How many joules will it take to melt that much ice? (depends of course on the probe diameter.) 3) How many joules will it take to keep the power supply cables, pipes, etc. for the probe free of refreezing? (probably depends a lot on how much ice you want to go through.) If you start thinking about these things and the unknowns on Europa you begin to realize *why* a radioactive power source was viewed as the only alternative. __ One of the biggest problems for a Cryobot -- or, for that matter, just melting and filtering enough ice water on a surface Europa lander to have a good chance of detecting biological traces -- is simply that water (both as ice and as liquid) can absorb so damn much heat with a minimal change in temperature. This is what stymied the first attempts back in 1968 to melt hundreds of meters through Greenland's icecap using thermal probes with electrically heated noses: to make them melt through the ice at more than an abysmally slow pace, they had to pump so much power into their electric heaters that their filaments kept burning out. It turns out now that actively pumping hot water through the Cryobot's nose works much more efficiently to melt its way down -- but, even so, you need a hell of a lot of heat energy, which as Robert says is why a heat-emitting radioisotope is an absolute necessity for the Europa cryobot. (Indeed, if Chris Chyba is right, incorporating a preliminary Cryobot with a depth of just a few hundred meters may be the only way for a Europa surface lander to acquire enough meltwater to look for evidence of life.) By the way, there are very extensive tests underway by government-funded groups right now for exactly the sort of tests the Icepick group is talking about (That, among other things, is how it's been established that hot-water jets work well; they've been using those on thermal probes in Antarctica for some years now.) If we do try to go ahead with this, we'll already be way behind the beat where Cryobot tests are concerned. I've got some additional abstracts and news articles on Cryobot tests in my records, although it will take me a little while to track them down -- but Frank Carsey is centrally involved with them. (One capable of penetrating 100 meters or so through Mars' north polar cap is under very serious consideration for the 2007 Mars Scout mission.) == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice phases, etc.
Robert, You've missed some important points. The reel of wire would be attached or in close proximity to the probe and pay out as it goes down, just like an XBT. I think you would be amazed at how much wire these things can carry--hundreds of meters if not several km. The trick is the wire is thin, strong and wound very well. I think we can all picture a compact power source on the probe, and why it's necessary to go with an isotope heater and thermoelectric energy-generating source on Europa (and perhaps even Mars). Besides, if you think the Park Service will wince at some kerosene in their glacier, how about a lost Pu-238 RTG? Ooops! What's more interesting is deploying a melter that can still communicate to the surface. Besides being a rallying point for this group, it will get others' attention if successful. To my knowledge, the only Cryobot deployments to date have been in conventional ice bore holes, however environmentally unfriendly those were made and maintained. These first deployments were just equipment tests. I believe Frank Carsey knows of previous melter attempts made by the ice hole drillers. Gary At 02:23 PM 10/27/2002 -0800, you wrote: On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Gary McMurtry wrote: Also, why worry about the power source for a demo? Because if it isn't realistic enough it gets labeled a 'joke'. Its a no brainer that if I stick a radiative ball on the top of a glacier connected to an endless supply of steam that its going to melt its way to the bottom of the glacier. The trick is to do this on a moon orbiting a giant planet halfway across the solar system! Just use a surface gas-powered generator and a tethered cable. It's ugly, but if you back-fill the hole with kerosene, it won't refreeze. That's how the ice-boring folk do it down Antarctica-way. Oh yes, I bet the EI review panel will *love* that solution. You are going to contaminate our pristine pretty all-natural glacier with *what*? What flys in Antarctica isn't likely to fly in a National Park or Forrest. Its only been in the last couple of decades that the NSF has begun to clean up the environmental mess that the bases have left in the Antarctic. I've got no idea whether other governments are cleaning up the messes at their bases. And another: oceanographers and the military use XBTs for recording the thermal structure of the ocean. The XBT (eXpendable Bathy-Thermograph) has a reel of thin conducting wire that plays out as it goes down, so if used in a re-freezing hole, who cares as long as the probe continues to move in the ice? Are we talking electrical heating of the probe tip here or something a little more energetic? In either case you have the problem of the ice refreezing and cutting off your energy source. There may be a problem with the resistive load on the wire(s) to maintain a hot probe, however. The problem is being able to continually extend the wires once they are frozen in the ice unless you make them out of a resistive material that keeps the layer around the wires unfrozen. I suspect in that case you are going to require a *lot* of energy which in turn means a *lot* of fuel. There are some serious calculations that need to be done before I'll take this idea seriously. To start with: 1) How much ice do you want to go through? 2) How many joules will it take to melt that much ice? (depends of course on the probe diameter.) 3) How many joules will it take to keep the power supply cables, pipes, etc. for the probe free of refreezing? (probably depends a lot on how much ice you want to go through.) If you start thinking about these things and the unknowns on Europa you begin to realize *why* a radioactive power source was viewed as the only alternative. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: Working Model
EPFI is located in Montgomery, TX, about 50 miles North of Houston. Our largest client right now is Toshiba. We make several of their backup chasis. CAD/CAM stands for computer aided drafting/computer aided manufacturing. I can use it to make blue print drawings, and to actually manufacture parts by tool fitting parts in the flat (which means telling the CNC turret where to punch holes in a sheet of metal to within about 0.001”) creating a flat part, which then can be formed to various shapes. One of the niftier punches we have is a 4-inch louver. The rest are pretty much just for making round holes of various sizes and cutting out the part. While I know next to nothing about RC stuff, a good friend of mine has a few RC planes and knows how to write programs for things like servo motors and the like. And the PDF thing is actually simpler than that. I don’t need to scan the drawings. They’re already in use on the computer, and I manipulate them that way. The idea was to convert the files to something everyone can look at and tell me what needs to change to make it work. Thus the idea of the PDF. Oh, and all this stuff isn’t in my garage. This is where I work. It’s in a factory. The only thing I can really use for free is the computer. Everything else cost money to run, and prototypes are not cheap by any stretch of the imagination. You can pretty much get one part for the same cost as a hundred. So I’m not much use there, other than being a contractor of sorts, unless I can convince my boss to give us a freebee. As long as it was well advertised, and succeeded, I think that would be enough incentive. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 10:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Working Model In a message dated 10/26/2002 11:44:50 AM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Don’t know if it helps or not, but I have access to CAD/CAM software I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I don't know what CAD/CAM software is. Is it for creating diagrams? Robert, would you also be able to come up with something to help create a model control device software package? and make professional drawings, and if needed make parts from sheet metal, Lexan, or about anything else originally flat. Wow. That's exactly what we need. We're going to have to hammer this thing out on paper / conceptualization first, but once we do, we are going to absolutely require a diagram. I'd like to hear more feedback about whether the rest of you think that a steam-driven model would work. If so, we're still going to need some serious sheet metal work. One thing I was thinking is to hammer the exterior skin with barbershop pole flutings along the sides, so that the entire model resembles a drill, with the drill bit itself being the nose of the model. The model would then potentially 'screw' itself into the ice, propelled by a steam blast out the back. Slightly altering the angle of the tail exhaust would then allow the model to slowly steer, as it screwed through the ice. Will it work? (Also have access to a brake press to make bends.) If I can figure out how to convert drawing files into something everyone can use, like PDF files, then it’ll be just like one big engineering firm. Wouldn't a $100 photo to digital formatter do that? Where is Elite Precision Fabricators located? Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823
RE: Hot Nose
I like Proteus. I think Ice Pick was supposed to be for the one that actually went to Europa. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Gail Leatherwood Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 12:54 PM To: Europa Subject: Hot Nose Just so we don't get carried away: We're looking at a small scale model, built of off the shelf components, and using easily available power supply. We don't have the capability of creating sophisticated automated assemblies and timing devices that require microminiaturization, and especially exotic materials made of that wondrous substance known to the trade as unobtainium. Therefore, we don't need to wonder about nuclear power sources and such like that will no doubt be used in the real thing if and when it ever gets up to Europa. What we're after is something that will demonstrate the feasibility of a machine that can penetrate a layer of frozen water ice, send signals to the surface about its location and condition, and stay intact long enough to prove it can be done. If it can be done with simple materials and common construction techniques, we can show that it can be done (and maybe how) in full size millions of miles from here. For example, we could talk to our local high school science teachers about having the young people experiment with just heating up some object and recording what it takes to melt its way through a 50-lb. block of ice. We've all seen amazing things done like this, so why don't we try it? Name: Not bad idea to just keep the Icepick name. Proteus has a nice ring. The Proteus Group is workable; maybe better than the Hot Nose Group. If the energy generated so far could be harnessed, itwould probably power our machine, so let's keep it up! Gail (the guy) Leatherwood
RE: Working Model
Yes, that is why I would like to do the prints for all the parts. And on the assembly page, the first page, is usually where you have your bill of materials. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-europa;klx.com]On Behalf Of Hibai Unzueta Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 8:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Working Model I am happy to see that this is moving and could result on something real, but I think we are somehow trying to actually go faster than we can. Talking about the ralisation of an actual model sounds good, but I think all this requires a big conceptual work and planning work. Usually every engineering project spends more time on paper than on testing. Therefore, we need a planner. A detailed description of each component, and of course, a list of components. Something else: we don't have the technology required to build a cryobot for europa. This is highly expensive and inaccessible technology. Only a high tech research institute or a space/governmental agency can gain access to it. So: What is left for us? We can do a lot on conceptual design. We can defince necessities, we can addapt other proposed bots (on a conceptual level), we can do mission planning as a simulation to see inconvenients. (...) -- Hibai Unzueta P.D.: If any website is needed I can help but I must say that we nned to keep ourselves practical and not forget what the actual crude reality is. - Original Message - From: Gail Leatherwood To: Europa Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 7:32 PM Subject: Working Model I seem to have volunteered to help organize and circulate the ideas we've come up with. I'll start working on a data base since I don't have anything else to do but sit around drinking beer and watching TV (yeah, right!) I suggest we call the project Hot Nose, since that's what the design seems to be suggesting. (No, no! Not Snot Nose! Good grief!) I suggest that anyone with any ideas or other contributions simply keep posting them on this discussion group. I will capture them and begin organizing them into the various components like Vessel, Guidance System, Electronics, Communication, etc., depending on what we come up with. Then we can begin identifying sources of hardware/software and start hunting for what we need. John's note about the model submarine hobbyist web site is excellent--I've added it to my Favorites list. It has a ton of info on who's making and selling parts for model submarines. Check it out. I also suggest someone get in touch with Nat'l Geographic, Smithsonian, and The Discovery Channel (another Byrne idea, not mine) to see if anyone would be interested in following the project. We might also check with the educational system to identify school science competitions. Each of us can check with our local high schools to see if any of them would be interested. I'll try to keep up with the documentation of the project, for I think that will be critical for both our own developmental use and possible publicity. Oh, a couple pesky questions: In whose garage will we build Hot Nose? And if we're scattered all over the US and other countries (like Hibai Unzueta in Spain) how are we going to get enough of us together to actually handle the assembly? Not insurmountable, but getting to Alaska might be like the gold rushers converging on the Chilkoot Pass. OK, your turn. Gail PS: Thanks, Bruce for your encyclopedic reference on Icepick related works. I envy your library! GBL == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Working Model Points Addressed
Okay, group, we're making good progress so far. A lot of members have put in some very good points about the possibilities and limitations of an actual working model. Here is an address to those various points: There's a VERY serious misconception developing here -- every Cryobot design ever developed simply melts the ice beneath its nose, and then uses gravity to descend. Rear steam-jet propulsion would be incredibly inefficient in providing a very small amount of additional downward motive force, given the amount of energy needed to boil ice (fully 8 times more than is needed to melt it) -- you'd do infinitely better just to use any heat source powerful enough to do that to just melt the ice below the Cryobot's nose faster instead. (By the way, the Cryobot does NOT generate "hydraulic pressure" when it melts ice -- quite apart from the fact that any such pressure would be in every direction anyway, remember that water ice is one of the very few substances that SHRINKS when it melts.) -- Robert Bradbury Marcus, and later Bruce, addressed this point as well. I think we can all agree at this point that hydraulic pressure won't be a serious issue on our working model, for the reasons that Robert suggests. Sure, it might be a limited factor on Europa, but we're working on a much smaller scale, and won't have the problems of supercold ice and 20 kilometers of ice to contend with. We're talking about a model that can slowly cut through 500' of ice -- that's all. So, warm water jets, creating an envelope of warm water around the model as it works through the ice, should be sufficient without any significant danger of hydraulic pressure. So, we're decided: warm water jets are the motive force for the model. Next issue. Hi All, Is there really any need to come up with a new name? If you go to the current website's main page http://klx.com/europa/, you will see that our group is really called IcePIC (Ice Penetrator Internet Committee) and the probe is called Icepick. This was voted on in the early days when it was changed from the original name that Larry Klaes had proposed when he first started this group, and I see no reason to change it now. :-) Thanks, Julie Edwards Julie's recommendation for keeping the Icepick name is on point. So far, we have three names (name deadline is Tuesday night). Those names are 'Hot Nose' (probably not this name, as Gail Leatherwood himself agrees), 'Proteus' (my suggestion, to represent a 'water god, that can transform into something much greater than originally seen', and Julie's recommendation to simply keep with 'Icepick'. The only problem I have with Icepick is that I don't want to step on Larry Klae's toes, or interfere with the day to day activities of his site, which is really about creating a Europa bound probe. Our working model is a feasibility study, and not a working Europa probe, which would cost millions and the support of NASA. Our probe represents the efforts of a group of space enthusiasts, to demonstrate the feasibility of a real 'Icepick'. Really, the whole purpose of a name for the project is twofold -- to allow categorization of our efforts outside! of the central tenet of the IcePick site, and to focus our minds, by actualizing the concept. Give a project a name, and you breath a little life into it. John, I have to disagree. As Bruce I think mentioned, it was determined long ago that the only way to get through the Europa icecap was with a radioactive power source. We don't *have* sufficient radioactive power sources (RTGs) to do Pluto, a Europa orbiter and the Icepick mission. Further, given our lack of ability to produce Pu-238 currently any mission is going to be very expensive because we have to purchase the Pu-238 from the Russians (and they aren't making it available cheaply). Last time I checked there weren't electrical power lines running up to glaciers in Alaska or Mt. Ranier. Precisely *how* do you plan to get through the ice? Are you going to run a couple of plastic hoses from the probe to the surface so you can keep pouring gasoline and pumping oxygen down to some 2-cycle model airplane engine to generate heat? That doesn't sound like a realistic scenario to get people interested in a "real" Europa mission. It sounds like a stunt by a bunch of space enthusiasts. Go do the research on what is available (most of the info is on the web under "RTG"s, AMTEC, "advanced radioisotope power systems", etc.). NASA and the DOE are working on improved power sources, but their last attempt (the AMTEC [alkali-metal-thermal-to-electric conversion] project) has to my knowledge been defunded [Note 1]. Robert also: There are some serious calculations that need to be done before I'll take this idea
Re: Working Model
In a message dated 10/27/2002 6:05:55 PM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, that is why I would like to do the prints for all the parts. And on the assembly page, the first page, is usually where you have your bill of materials. Robert Crawley Elite Precision Fabricators, Inc. Programming (936) 449-6823 Robert, you mentioned that Precision Fabricators might be willing to participate, in exchange for publicity. That is exactly what we are all about. If Precision would be willing to assist with the construction of the model, it would be clearly the advantage of IcePick to give them as much credit as we can. We want to encourage the participation of civilians and civilian industries as much as possible in the space technology game. If we all wind up, one year from now, standing on a glacier with a 3' aluminum working model, all of us wearing jackets with Precision Fabricator logos in the manner of race car pit crews, well, that's the point of our project, isn't it? The same goes for AIEVEOS, or any other industrial group that is willing to assist to make this model project a reality. -- John Harlow Byrne
