EV Digest 2444
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Mo' Info Re: Eff. Comp. CivicWithACord vs. VoltsRabbit #2
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
by Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
by Jim Dempsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Visio as schematic tool/ free stencils
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Surplus aircraft nicads
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Blue Meanie, & Portland Cops!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) l e d's
by "Richard Millhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) VW Rabbit adapter plate
by "Roy Reker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: l e d's
by "Tony McCormick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: l e d's
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
We believe you should get all the watt hours into the battery that you
bought from the power company without the cord heating effects from poor
power factor.
Thanks for the atta boy. It keeps us trying.
At Woodburn this year, we were running a buck enhanced PFC-50 on a 6-15
power connector putting 80 amps into a 48 volt car without any connectors
overheating. The output was a 175 amp Anderson. The 50 amp Anderson that
comes on a PFC-20 would overheat on the buck enhanced PFC-50.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 4:55 PM
Subject: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
> Credit to Smalley and Rudman for designing, building, and offering such a
great charger
> that makes BIG charging amps from a minimal amount of juice from the wall
socket!
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
>
> > No, I would agree with you. What it will take is to spot some surplus
> > deal for a higher capacity battery that makes you say "Bingo!".
> > Otherwise, the Evercells may be the most straightforward choice.
>
> A few things you may want to be very careful with:
>
> 1) The posts on the new evercels - especially the smaller size - are not
> rated for a thousand amps. Therefore, keep your battery limit knob low and
> your browsers truckled lest you should vaporize the snot out of the
> batteries.
I don't draw over 25 amps on the present tester.
> 2) I think Joe Smalley can define this better than I can, but with Leo's
> batteries in order to get full capacity we are charging the first time to
> 14.7 instead of the more usual 14.2V. We are fairly certain that these
> batteries require a 'comissioning charge' like many other flavors of
> nickel-based batteries.
They get hot the first several cycles. I would recommend doing the
commissioning charge outside the car in case one spews or melts. The voltage
threshold drops with each cycle. The information on all the cycles is posted
on the Manzanita web site. I am up to cycle 35 but only up to cycle 30 is
posted.
> 3) Don't forget, the batteries will run very hot until they break in. So
do
> not put the pedal to the metal until you've gotten at least five and
> probably more cycles on them to get 'em to run cool
I did not have any thermal problems on discharge but the relatively low
current might not get them hot.
> 4) Until they are broken in, the batteries will show a pronounced tendancy
> to get out of balance. It's probably a good idea to charge them all in
> parallel A: When you get them out of the box and B: After break in - to
> balance 'em all up.
As I ran the cycles, the cells within this battery became unbalanced and
heated up on different cycles. After about cycle 9, it ran cool
consistently. The battery did not delivered rated capacity until every cell
had been hot once.
> 5) You can not use voltage-based charge shuttling systems to balance the
> evercels because their voltage varies widely during charge. I have found
> that a 30 second moving average filter gives a moderately good indication
of
> SoC during bulk charge. Could be better, though.
I just record the voltage on the single battery I have and have noticed the
voltage varies from cycle to cycle. It seems to have stabilized in the last
couple cycles.
> 6) Do NOT use the Zivan charger to charge the evercels. The results would
be
> painful to watch. Get a PFC-20 or something. ;-) [The PFC-20 out of the
box
> with very little tweaking will do a reasonable job of charging the
> evercels.]
I will be tweaking a charge controller to work with the evercells. If you
buy the present model, we should be able to update it to work with the
evercells.
> 7) Rumor has it Joe Smalley has taken my 'bad' evercel (the one that lost
> about two cups of electrolyte, donated to him in the name of science) and
> made it get almost nameplate (80AH) and that he has discovered some
"elegant
> and refined" (Rich's words) charge algorythms. Joe, can you share those
with
> the rest of us yet? My charge algorythms are not particularly refined as
of
> yet, although from what Rich was mentioning it sounded like you came to
the
> same conclusions I did.
There are some rough spots in the algorithm yet. Consider it very close to
the website recommendation without the 5 minute wait.
> For those of you who are curious about what's going on down in SoCal, my
> friend Leo has replaced his pack that was severely damaged by multiple
> modular charger failures with a pack of the new 'made in china' Evercels
> which he is currently doing the 'first balance charge' on, after which he
> will install them in his car. Pre commisioning charge, he is finding the
> batteries do not store their rated capacity - they also all shipped at
> different SoCs, some as low as 10.88V - but I am expecting that after
> commissioning charge, we will get rated cap out of them.
Discharge them individually and then charge them all in series at 4 amps for
24 hours. Monitor the pack voltage with a recording voltmeter. The low
current should not be enough to overheat them but should be enough to get
them commissioned in a reasonable period. Repeat until they make nameplate.
As they break in, the peak voltage and the end voltage will drop with every
cycle.
My corpse battery took 28 cycles to make 80 AHr. I was charger shy because
of the imbalance in the battery due to the earlier spewage.
> For another eerie thing.. Leo used one of those 'black magic' battery
> testers on his old Evercels and it was able to accurately report capacity
> and indicate which ones were bad, even though they aren't lead acids. So
> maybe the $2000 box is worth something after all.
>
> (For those of you not familiar with the 'black magic' battery tester, it's
> the one that has two fairly thin leads and bounces some kind of signal off
> the battery to determine it's health and capacity.. takes 30 seconds to do
> the whole test, and is eerily accurate)
Is that one of the battery impedence meters that measures the AC impedence
at 20 Hz?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, battery heating makes a big difference, as you have noticed.
Unless I looked at the two vehicles, I couldn't telly ou why one gets a
third more range than the other. Part of it may be a willingness to
discharge the batteries more deeply, part may be the driving cycle
(elevation change and stops and starts). If the Civic is driving at a
higher speed with fewer stops (freeway) with a more aerodynamic body and
thinner air (at a relatively fixed higher elevation) to push through,
that may expain a few miles.
I am not familiar with the dcp or curtis controls or the difference
between the 8" and 9" motors, but the combination of the above (motor,
controller, drive cycle, elevation, willingness to discharge) probably
explains the 1/3 more range. And that range may come with more frequent
battery pack replacements.
Seth
Bob Bath wrote:
>
> Doh! I should've mentioned that during winter,
> VoltsRabbit will do 20-25 mi. comfortably, maybe 32
> during spring/summer. And the 44 mi. in winter on the
> Civic includes battery heating blankets-- a serious
> omission.
> CivicWithACord is in CO; VoltsRabbit #2 in OR,
> hence direct comparisons are not possible. Hence I
> toss theorizing instead of controlled experimentation.
> (Sorry Joe & Seth!)
>
> >
> > Bob Bath wrote:
> > >
> > > Descriptions:
> > > Vehicle #1: 144V system, 8VUSGC (160 Ah reg.
> > model),
> > > DCP Raptor 600A controller, 8" ADC motor, 92 Honda
> > > Civic hatchback body, and driver commuting 44
> > > miles/trip. 3302 lbs. (back-of-the-napkin WAG)
> > >
> > > Vehicle #2: 128V sytem, 8VUSGC (178 Ah high cap.
> > > model) , 500A Curtis controller, 9" ADC motor, 81
> > > Rabbit body, and driver commuting 5 mi./trip.
> > 3001
> > > lbs.
> > >
> > > Symptoms:
> > > Driver of vehicle #1 pulls 320A max from his
> > > controller, or at voltage, roughly 46kW.
> > > Driver of vehicle #2 pulls 460A max from his
> > > controller, or at voltage (not counting sag), or
> > 61kW.
> > >
> > > Driver of vehicle #2 jealous of vehicle #1 range,
> > > (even though extra range not needed) and as
> > typical
> > > wannabe engineer (if it works, fix it better)
> > wants to
> > > know why. Listers, which do you think is the main
> > > cause? Which is the least likely?
> > >
> > > 1) Higher operating voltage means less current
> > draw &
> > > better efficiency.
> > > 2) Vehicle #1 driver stretching range on a daily
> > > basis, so batts. more used to cycling harder,
> > which
> > > inc. range.
> > > 3) DCP Raptor a more efficient controller than
> > > Curtis.
> > > 4) High capacity model battery providing less
> > volume
> > > for sulfuric acid circulation due to more active
> > > material on the plates.
> > > 5) Civic a much more aerodynamic body shape than
> > > Rabbit (though with 2 more batts. and a bit more
> > body
> > > weight in general, that might be a draw)?
> > > 6) Other overlooked: tires & rolling resistance,
> > > tranny needs repair, etc.
> > > 7) A combination of the above/which?
> > >
> > > Appreciatively,
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> > now.
> > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> > --
> > vze3v25q@verizondotnet
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> michael bearden wrote:
>
> > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > > Correction 250v 30 amp Twist.
> >
> > These are the ones I used until I got tired of burning them up and replacing
> > them. I am now using 50 amp Range connectors for charging.
> > Michael B.
>
> What kind of current were you trying to put through them?
This is a Zivan NG5 charging a 192volt pack of 32 optimas (16 buddy pairs). The weak
point
in the L6-30 connectors, both male and female has been the cable clamp inside the
plug. They
melt and fuse at this point of contact-even when I have made a point of checking the
torque
on the screws. I don't know how many amps the very poorly power factored Zivan is
trying to
pull at this point- but it destroyed 3 connectors before I switched to the 50 amp
range
plug.
The 50 amp is ugly, and I don't like connecting or disconnecting it while the circuit
is on,
because unlike the twist-lock connectors, it is possible to get fingers in contact
with the
plug "blades' while they are partially contacted and exposed.
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you tried tinning the wire before inserting it into the clamp. I have
found several samples of wire that neither tin properly nor won't make good
connection into a screw clamp. It was not the fault of the clamp. It was
some contamination on the wire strands themselves. Once the strands were
tinned, the problem was gone.
Maybe going to a larger connector causes the heat to be dissipated through a
larger pin resulting in a lower temperature that allows the wire to survive.
Or the larger clamp puts enough pressure on the wire or scuffs the
contamination enough that you get a good connection.
I would be careful to not condemn the connector if the wire is the problem.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael bearden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
>
>
> John Wayland wrote:
>
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > michael bearden wrote:
> >
> > > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > >
> > > > Correction 250v 30 amp Twist.
> > >
> > > These are the ones I used until I got tired of burning them up and
replacing
> > > them. I am now using 50 amp Range connectors for charging.
> > > Michael B.
> >
> > What kind of current were you trying to put through them?
>
> This is a Zivan NG5 charging a 192volt pack of 32 optimas (16 buddy
pairs). The weak point
> in the L6-30 connectors, both male and female has been the cable clamp
inside the plug. They
> melt and fuse at this point of contact-even when I have made a point of
checking the torque
> on the screws. I don't know how many amps the very poorly power factored
Zivan is trying to
> pull at this point- but it destroyed 3 connectors before I switched to
the 50 amp range
> plug.
> The 50 amp is ugly, and I don't like connecting or disconnecting it while
the circuit is on,
> because unlike the twist-lock connectors, it is possible to get fingers in
contact with the
> plug "blades' while they are partially contacted and exposed.
> Michael B.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Have you tried tinning the wire before inserting it into the clamp.
Absolutely, positively, DO NOT EVER apply solder to stranded wire that will
be inserted into a pressure clamp type connector!!!!
Solder is a very malleable metal, and while it may seem that it causes the
pressure connector to be more secure in the beginning, the lead in the
solder will "relax", resulting in a connection that degrades through time
and allows the wire to become loose under the clamp.
If you feel the need to tin the very ~ends~ of the wire for the purpose of
containing the loose strands, this can be done but *only* if the tined end
of the wire is not subjected to any pressure from the connector, which
again, results in an unreliable connection.
Applying a resistance lowering and corrosion proofing compound such as "No
Al Ox" would be advisable. This will lessen the connection's electrical
resistance, exclude moisture, and prevent oxidation of the copper and brass
components.
In the end, if you are heating up your connector, either as a result of
drawing high continuous charging currents, or because of the effects of
power factor, your ~only~ proper response should be to step up to a
connector that can handle the current without heating, or else turn the
current down to an approved level.
Using connectors (such as a dryer plug) with exposed live conductors is
asking for trouble *and* likely to give EV charging another black eye in
the public's perception. Clean up your act or go back to ICE.
High current twist-lock connectors are used extensively in the RV industry.
Check out your local RV supply store for suitable, water resistant plugs
and receptacles with water proof, screw on travel caps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
West Marine is a great source for weather resistant plugs, and supplies
Port Supply is West Marine's warehouse affiliate
Chad
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
> >Have you tried tinning the wire before inserting it into the clamp.
>
> Absolutely, positively, DO NOT EVER apply solder to stranded wire that
will
> be inserted into a pressure clamp type connector!!!!
>
> Solder is a very malleable metal, and while it may seem that it causes the
> pressure connector to be more secure in the beginning, the lead in the
> solder will "relax", resulting in a connection that degrades through time
> and allows the wire to become loose under the clamp.
>
> If you feel the need to tin the very ~ends~ of the wire for the purpose of
> containing the loose strands, this can be done but *only* if the tined end
> of the wire is not subjected to any pressure from the connector, which
> again, results in an unreliable connection.
>
> Applying a resistance lowering and corrosion proofing compound such as "No
> Al Ox" would be advisable. This will lessen the connection's electrical
> resistance, exclude moisture, and prevent oxidation of the copper and
brass
> components.
>
> In the end, if you are heating up your connector, either as a result of
> drawing high continuous charging currents, or because of the effects of
> power factor, your ~only~ proper response should be to step up to a
> connector that can handle the current without heating, or else turn the
> current down to an approved level.
>
> Using connectors (such as a dryer plug) with exposed live conductors is
> asking for trouble *and* likely to give EV charging another black eye in
> the public's perception. Clean up your act or go back to ICE.
>
> High current twist-lock connectors are used extensively in the RV
industry.
> Check out your local RV supply store for suitable, water resistant plugs
> and receptacles with water proof, screw on travel caps.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 28/11/02 22:56:34 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
> Do NOT use the Zivan charger to charge the evercels. The results would be
> painful to watch. Get a PFC-20 or something.
When Brian Harper of SEC talked to us at a BVS committee meeting, he said
that Zivan had an approved algorithm for the batteries. I wouldn't use it on
a system of more than 48 volt though.
Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello, John
Sorry to hear about your pack. Mine died a year ago. I can definitely
sympathize.
I might be interested in at least 4, maybe 5, and live nearby, but I have a
concern or two. According to listers to whom I have spoken, Optimas die
less of a bell curve death, more of a leap off a cliff death, maintaining
most of there capacity -- in the 90% range -- just before a few cycles
takes them to boat anchor land. This may explain the rash of bats you had
to replace.
With that in mind, do you have the recorded number of cycles on the pack,
and the average discharge depth? This, I feel from my own experience,
would be more information more useful than remaining capacity. Also, even
if they are near the end, all is not lost: Since I can no longer drive my
Lectra to work, I would be using it for quick store runs and the like, and
thus probably would not need full capacity. By knowing the capacity and
keeping discharges shallow I could get some more life out of the lead.
Jim Dempsey
Seattle
'99 Lectra
At 01:16 PM 11/25/2002 -0800, you wrote:
Ok, since these can no longer quite do my commute, my pack is for sale.
It consists of 13 Optima YT's that will deliver about 5KW before the
voltage plummets precipitously. A weak one was recently tested as having
85% of original AH capacity.
If you really want a 14th battery, I have another, but it probably has 70%
of original capacity.
Asking $1000 for the pack.
Location: Whidbey Island (a bit north of Seattle, WA)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know if anyone on the list uses Visio for things like schematics
for their car electrical systems, but a coworker has a website with some
free stencils for Visio for lots of EV-related stuff from AC inlet plugs
to motors and relays. The website is www.shapedev.com
Seth
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawerence and All,
--- "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> This link came up when I did a quick search today
> for NiMH batteries.
>
> http://www.73.com/a/0009.shtml
>
> Look about 1/2 way down to find the ad
>
> JUMBO 34AH/1.25V NICAD BATTERIES
> Rated 34 ampere hours/1.25VDC. Sintered plated
> nickel-cadmium. Manufactured
> by Marathon. Good for 40 years if properly
> maintained. 3-1/16" W x 1-3/8" D
> x 9-1/4"H. These are used but in excellent
> condition. Deep cycle battery.
> Great for solar power, telephone standby, electric
> cars, marine, emergency
> standby. Large quantity available. $14.50 Ea/10,
> $12.50 Ea/50. 1 in stock.
> MB908
These sound fairly high priced for used units
when new cost about $550kw.
At $145 for a 12vdc nom unit at 34amp/hr is
about .4kw, $310 kw.
Also as cells they weigh more than mono- block
ni-cads bat..
But these people want to sell these so bargin
with them. Offer 1/2 that. Use weight, cost, age as
bargining points.
I get mine for free because most batt dealers
don't want to deal, cost, with recycling them.
Don't accept a cell with much white stuff
growing in it. Make sure they well replace any that
don't come up to spec so you don't get caught paying
for it and recycling it.
I'd buy 5-10% extra cells for replacement of
future bad cells.
A lot of hassle but once done you'll have a good
batt pack lasting for probably 10+ years that are
abuse and cold tolerant.
Hopefully they have more than 1!!
jerry dycus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: billb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: November 28, 2002 16:09
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Surplus aircraft nicads
>
>
> Hi Folks, Does anyone know how or where one can buy
> surplus aircraft
> nicads, marathon, eagle pitcher, saft etc.they come
> 20cells in a
> stainless steel box, about 30 AH.
> The military and commercial sources are completely
> devoid of any mention
> of surplus sales.
> I know they are commonly refurbished, but nothing is
> totally "closed
> loop" so you can bet there is a "LOT" of them going
> somewhere. Can a
> recycle program be identified and tapped into?
> Any assistance greatly appreciated. Bill Brinsmead
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> So John, are you keeping track of how many people you have
> influenced to do their own conversions?
Nope, but I'm pretty sure that over the 22 years the car has been on the road,
especially
after its major facelift between '93-94, and with the magazine coverage, car shows,
out of
town visitors to the Wayland EV Juice Bar, daily encounters with folks, and because of
their exposure to a little
electrically-emitted tire smoke and rock'n tunes, that there have been a few souls
gripped
by the EV conversion disease!
> Speaking as one who has
> spent a heap of money (partly) because of you.... It's like Blue
> Meanie is some kind of contagious disease, multiplying in the
> minds and hearts of its hapless victims. "Save us, save us from
> the ICE MELTER!" "Help, I'm mel t i n g..."
Funny! It's always cool to do the ultimate 'recycle' of a gas car by turning it into a
clean running, fun, and dependable EV.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 23:09:02 -0800 (PST)
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: l e d's
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I tried some I bought at Autozone on my Jeep. Tail and brake lights
would work, but not the turn signals. I guess this old car needs the
resistance of the old fashioned bulbs to time the flashing. Since it
wants a multipurpose bulb, couldn't use them at all.
--- Richard Millhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Has anyone tried converting tail-stop-park lights to LED's?
>
> Uncle Rich in Central Oregon
=====
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