EV Digest 2402
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Measuring voltage during charging
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: NiZn recycling?
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Measuring voltage during charging
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Newbie question re: Rabbit conversions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert Nansel)
5) inductive charger San Jose CAL FOR SALE
by "mechelaere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) NiZn buddy pairs?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NiZn buddy pairs?
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Evercel MB80
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Right on Dyno, and a little story too(was: bad battery questions)
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Flooded 6v to NiZn 12v comparison (was: Evercel group buy?)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
by "Ed Koffeman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Good EV to Convert?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Newbie question re: Rabbit conversions
by Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Hybrid Packs was (Re: Evercel MB80)
by "Tony McCormick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Advice on buying a used EV.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Evercel MB80
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Ford Ranger EV re-lease.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: auction - the links
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Newbie question re: Rabbit conversions
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: auction - the links
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Evercel MB80
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: auction - the links
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Measuring voltage during charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee wrote:
> Also, the gassing threshold drops as the batteries age. Brand
new, the
> threshold is over 2.37v, but old flooded batteries can start
gassing as
> low as 2.25v/cell.
So is there something else going on with basic lead-acid
chemistry that changes the 2.35V/cell other than the temperature
effect (which I also recall to be 0.028Vpc/10degF,
Vpc=volts-per-cell)? Old lead is the same as new lead in this
regard, right? So there must be some other factor going on.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From the Evercel web site:
"Environmental Status: This battery technology provides the lowest
impact to the environment of any standard rechargeable battery
technology on the market today. Evercel's battery meets the
requirements of the EPA for disposal in landfills with regard to heavy
metals. A TCLP test has been done by an independent laboratory, which
confirms that the Evercel battery does not leach out controllable
levels of any heavy metals. Evercel is working on the EU requirements
now. Like all of the standard rechargeable batteries, this battery
system contains an electrolyte -- an alkaline solution of 20%
potassium hydroxide."
So does that mean they are deliberating marketing this as a disposable
battery, destined for landfills? I understand the problem with small
batteries from cell phones, laptops, etc. ending up in the regular
trash, but to set us up to dump large batteries in a landfill is
ridiculous.
No they are just being realistic. As I recall they are primarily
targeting the trolling motor crowd. It's a fact of life that Americans
in general tend to throw things away when they are done with them unless
there is a compelling reason not to.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to expect that someone faced with
disposing of one or two trolling motor batteries would be as likely to
toss it as turn it in. They do it today with Lead-Acid batteries even
though most (all?) states have a $5 to $10 manditory core charge.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, the gassing threshold drops as the batteries age. Brand
new, the
threshold is over 2.37v, but old flooded batteries can start
gassing as
low as 2.25v/cell.
So is there something else going on with basic lead-acid
chemistry that changes the 2.35V/cell other than the temperature
effect (which I also recall to be 0.028Vpc/10degF,
Vpc=volts-per-cell)? Old lead is the same as new lead in this
regard, right? So there must be some other factor going on.
As a guess the electrolyte is getting contaminated. As I recall gassing
has nothing to do with the plates, it's just the electrolyte composition.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are VW Rabbit conversions still a viable route to a good EV? I ask because
both Brant's book and the Convert It! manual say that cars older than ten
years might not be good donor prospects, and (other than Cabrios) all those
Rabbits out there are now quite long in the tooth by this rule.
I like the clean design of the Voltsrabbit conversion, though it is a bit
pricey, which gives me pause -- does it make sense to sink $10k into a
chassis 17 or more years old? Is there a logical successor vehicle to the
Rabbit still in production?
-RLN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hello folks
found on e bay:
inductive charger
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871441846
+
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871758976
a corbin
Greetings
E
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I looked at the Evercels some more, I was able to figure out how to
fit 26 rather than 22 into my existing battery boxes, making it a little
more attractive for potential range. However, at 1.75 v/cell or 14
v/battery this makes a nominal 364 volt pack, and at the finish charge
voltage of 16 volts per 8-cell battery given on the web page, that makes
it reach 416 volts on charge. So beyond the limits of a T-Rex (336
nominal, 400 max) and I'm still trying to figure out how to fit in a few
more batteries. This is also getting beyond my comfort level for
voltages to play with.
So, is it known yet if NiZn's can be paralleled? Either "buddy pairs" or
just the ends of 2 strings tied together. I seem to recall talk that
NiCads don't parallel well.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NiZn's load-share beautifully.. I have paired them (and more) for both
charge and discharge with very good results - they load-share better than
PbA in my experience.
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: NiZn buddy pairs?
>
> As I looked at the Evercels some more, I was able to figure out how to
> fit 26 rather than 22 into my existing battery boxes, making it a little
> more attractive for potential range. However, at 1.75 v/cell or 14
> v/battery this makes a nominal 364 volt pack, and at the finish charge
> voltage of 16 volts per 8-cell battery given on the web page, that makes
> it reach 416 volts on charge. So beyond the limits of a T-Rex (336
> nominal, 400 max) and I'm still trying to figure out how to fit in a few
> more batteries. This is also getting beyond my comfort level for
> voltages to play with.
>
> So, is it known yet if NiZn's can be paralleled? Either "buddy pairs" or
> just the ends of 2 strings tied together. I seem to recall talk that
> NiCads don't parallel well.
>
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Nov 2002 at 16:55, John Wayland wrote:
> I would think that Cyclons of a 10 ahr or better rating would work great
I wonder if "stiffeners" might not be a good application for small SLI
(engine starting) batteries. If sized right, they shouldn't need to cycle
very deeply.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- Begin Message ---
I wrote earlier in a post titled "bad battery questions",
I checked each battery voltage when I got home. 6.09, 6.12, 6.11,
4.56!! I continued >to finish the check, all where pretty tight
except that one. Well, I figured that a quick >check of the SG would
find a dead cell or at least low numbers. No, that battery and >the
others around it all read around the 1.22 range.
The pack of Dyno batteries is 13 months old and had (according to the
e-meter) 18 cycles on it. Anyway, my Lester charger isn't adjustable
so I recharged the pack (the bad battery charged fine and worked more
or less normally down to about -40ah). The next day I took the
battery out of the pack and took it down to the manufacturer, Dyno
Batteries in Ballard (Seattle). Of course when they tested it there
wasn't a problem (remember, it looks great until about -40ah).
Despite not finding a problem, and the fact that the batteries where
over a year old, they gave me a new one at no cost. They placed my
battery on a shelf with a couple of other odd batteries and said that
they plan to do some more testing on it. I advised them that to find
the problem they needed to remove about 45ah and then hit it with a
real load right away, it will roll over and play dead. As far as
service goes, I'm very pleased with Dyno.
I installed my new battery after charging it on a 6v charger and
cutting off the studs that stick out of the top of the automotive
posts (by hand with hacksaw, after taping over the vent caps first).
The first couple of cycles I had to manually manage the finish charge
of the new battery, but by cycle 3 is was acting just like the other
19. Since I have a new battery I have to break my pack in again. By
driving it to and from work this week I have opened up to 40ah
(actual) removed. It is showing no sign of trouble, with its voltage
right in the middle of the pack range.
And now a story from Friday,
The VW Pickup doesn't yet have a bed cover. Wow did it attract
attention at the gas station yesterday. Normally I avoid taking my
EVs into a gas station, but one local to us has a real good price on
milk and I was on my way home from work. By the time I got out of the
store I had 2 people walking around it already, one staring at the 2
rows of batteries at the front of the bed, the other one at the
license plates. These 2 aren't stupid, they had figured out it was
electric, but weren't quite sure how to ask that. You know, seeing
how unusual EVs are the question is about off the wall. They
certainly didn't want to look stupid.
"Wow", they wanted the tour. Where does it plug in, what's under the
hood, how fast - the basics. Of course with 3 people walking around
the Pickup it was almost a show <g>. So a couple other people where
drawn to the Pickup with its criptic license plate (NO FUEL) and
"electric" emblems. They where impressed with how clean the Pickup is
and that it sees freeway use almost every day. After walking around
it, looking, and asking questions they wanted to see what it sounded
like, and how you "start" it. This is the fun part (except for the
vacuum pump). I stick the key in and turn it to the standard run
position while pointing at the yellow "glow plug" (it was a diesel)
light. About 1 second after turning the key the yellow light goes out
when the DCP pulls the main contactor in. "Its started", I tell them.
In that brief time the vacuum pump has switched off too and the car
sits there "running" while they comment on how wonderfully quiet it
is. I give it a little throttle, "shhh" goes the Prestolite. They are
struck by the lack of noise and watch me as I leave the gas station.
Like I said, I generally avoid gas stations in my EVs, however,
perhaps that is not the best idea. It is the place where people are
reminded how annoying refueling is. It makes plugging in at home seem
pretty desirable. Anyway, the few times I've stopped at a gas station
in either of my EVs it has never failed to gather people around it.
Perhaps gas stations hit home EVs better than other parking lots?
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
I have enjoyed the conversation on racing braking / regen.
I have enjoyed it as well.
An off-the-wall idea: Use regen to make steam jets that point
upwards. This will increase downforce on the car, allowing later
braking and higher cornering speeds.
Another variant on this idea: Have ground effects that nearly touch
the ground all the way around the car. Use fans to suck air from
under the car and expel it upwards. This would "suction cup" the car
to the ground.
If you can generate 256 kW of braking regen, that could generate a lot
of downforce! It is also neat the more regen, the more downforce you
could produce, so the tires get more bite -- kind of a slow form of
antilock.
There are some amazingly creative people on the EV list. I think that the
intimidation factor of lightning bolts (from roof to trunk), steam jets, or
electrified doors (for 'accidental' contact in the turns) would be the most
useful part of these ideas<G>.
Making downforce with a variable source is a tricky thing. The driver has to
cope with unexpected changes in downforce. Not too long ago, some Ferrari F1
engineers figured a way to run the race car's exhaust out through the
diffuser in a way that created downforce. Basically extra downforce for free
using waste gases. Unfortunately, the drivers found that it made the car
very throttle position sensitive. The front to rear downforce ratio would
change as well as total downforce. A few spins later, they changed back to
the old exhaust set up.
A question for the ProEV guys: My above calculation works for
accelerating, too. Throw in an 80% efficiency factor, and it implies
that AWD will help your acceleration below about 50 mph, but not
above -- the extra weight of AWD would actually hurt. This would be
great for autocross, as your web page says. What kind of speeds will
you hit for "closed circuit road racing"?
Around 40-135 Mph. Average around 75 MPH.
We chose AWD because we felt range was going to be our biggest limiting
factor in racing. To improve range we needed to maximize regen. To maximize
regen without unsettling the car, we needed to regen with all 4 wheels. Thus
AWD was chosen for it's advantages in braking not acceleration.
To add AWD to our set up only required a differential and two half shafts
which is less than a 50 lbs addition. As you pointed out, it should help us
in Autocross.
We will also be running Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) regional races.
The class that we will be running in (SPU) averages around 75 MPH. We expect
the AWD will help us in the slow corners(< than 50) and in slippy conditions
such as rain races.
Another question, why not go with a limited slip diff, at least in
the rear?
Simplicity. The car comes with an open diff. It is one less factor to try
and understand. Quaffe offers a bolt-in LSD replacement when we are ready to
see if it will improve our performance either under regen or accel.
Is 3.9 the lowest gear you can get?
No. The Subaru diff is a Nissan part. It is used by all those Datsun 510
race cars and there are a number of different ratios available.
I'd think that would be
good for about 150 mph at 10k rpm, way above autocross speeds. Neat
thing though, is you're still probably traction limited until about
40 mph.
Choosing the right diff ratio is a little bit of a trick. Our torque curve
is a flat line until around 5000 rpm. Then it falls away pretty quick. If
you go to www.ProEV.com and look at the Electric Imp's work history, there
is a section about us using a race game to simulate driving the car at
Sebring (a track in Florida). What we found for Sebring was that a 3.9 ratio
was right were we needed to be. The higher ratios made the car fall off the
torque curve.
The best ratio might be different for each track. When we get the car
optimized, we might find ourselves carrying around a number of different
ratio diffs. We are building the car to make switching diffs a fairly quick
procedure.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
_________________________________________________________________
Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot to ask about cycle life.
Lead acids are around 550 cycles at 80 % DOD, but increase significantly
with
less than 80 % DOD.
Do NiZn have similar increases in cycle life with less than 80 % DOD ?
On Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:33:50 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Ok, so I know that NiZn is much much better than Lead, but what about
> the
> need for individual special chargers instead of one large standard
> such
> as a Lester ??
>
> On Fri, 01 Nov 2002 10:36:06 -0700 John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> writes:
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > Trojan T-145 stats:
> > > RC-25 = 530min C/20 = 244ah 6v 10-3/8"x7-1/8"x11-5/8"
> > 72.0lb
> > > C/2 = 158ah
> > >
> > > Evercel MB80-12-8 stats:
> > > RC-25 = ?min C/1(?) = 64ah 12v 10-1/4"x5-7/8"x7-7/8"
> > 36.4lb
> > >
> > > So, for every two batteries (2x6v series, 2x12v parallel) you
> > have:
> > > 6v C/2 = 158ah 12v 144lb
> > > 12v C/2 = 128ah 12v 73lb
> > >
> >
> > Note that 144 lbs. of golf car lead acid batteries gives a
> 'useable'
> > 158 ahrs, while half
> > that weight in Evercells gives 128 ahrs. At the C/1 rate, which
> the
> > golf car battery
> > manufacturers don't even want to talk about, I bet that half the
> > weight in Evercells
> > matches or exceeds the ahrs of the lead acid batteries. Consider
> the
> > same comparison at
> > freezing or below outside temperatures, and the Evercells will
> > simply blow away the golf
> > car lead acid batteries. Also keep in mind, that it is basically
> > impossible to fit enough
> > 6V golf car batteries in a small car to get up to higher voltages,
>
> > but this is easily done
> > with the light weight 12V Evercell modules.
> >
> > See Ya......John Wayland
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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>
>
________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The higher ratios made the car fall off the
> torque curve.
If your controller, as most AC drives should, has a constant torque region followed by
a constant horsepower region, then you should
gear it so that it gets to the point where the torque falls off as soon as possible,
and stays in the constant-horsepower region as
much as possible. You should probably redline the motor at the end of the longest
straight, if not before the end (optimum will be
before the end somewhat to get higher acceleration out of the slowest turn if it still
drops into the constant-torque region).
You are losing acceleration if you are in the constant torque region. Remember, the
acceleration is proportional to motor torque
times the final drive ratio, so you will also accelerate more quickly through the
constant torque region with a higher numerical
ratio.
The more horsepower you create, the faster the acceleration, and if you are in the
constant torque region you are not at maximum
horsepower.
Ed Koffeman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd think a more important question would be, "Can I get parts for
it?" It's probably cheaper and easier to keep an old VW bug on the
road than a Kia. You can find new replacement parts for vitually
anything on a 1965 Mustang, good luck on a Fairmont. I have owned a
few "orphan" cars like Fiat, Fiesta, Fiero, and Audi. Parts could be
expensive, available only at a dealer, and a wait for ordering.
Owning a Camaro and a Jeep has been a pleasure -- they have been very
reliable, and parts are cheap and common.
So I'd suggest something with a strong enthusiast following. Trucks
and sports cars are good examples. Just because they made alot of
them isn't necessary a good criterion for a car you might keep 30
years. How many 30 year cars do you see on the road? If you do there
is a good chance it is a Corvette, Porsche, Camaro, Mustang, Jeep, or
Chevy or Ford truck. I know VWs have tended to have a good enthusiast
following, if the Cabrio still does (and has no rust!) I'd say go for
it. Bill Dube would probably be a good person to comment!
Robert Nansel wrote:
Are VW Rabbit conversions still a viable route to a good EV? I ask
because
both Brant's book and the Convert It! manual say that cars older than
ten
years might not be good donor prospects, and (other than Cabrios) all
those
Rabbits out there are now quite long in the tooth by this rule.
I like the clean design of the Voltsrabbit conversion, though it is a
bit
pricey, which gives me pause -- does it make sense to sink $10k into
a
chassis 17 or more years old? Is there a logical successor vehicle to
the
Rabbit still in production?
-RLN
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gotta comment in this one...
Are Rabbits still a good bet for conversions? YES, definitely!!! While the
dealerships may not still stock all of the parts you may need to keep a 20+
year-old Rabbit in showroom condition, there are literally warehouses
*full* of aftermarket performance and restoration parts, including
suspension and brake upgrades, which are important to EV conversions. The
local Pic-n-Pull wrecking yard here has more than 20 Rabbit bodies in
stock, and they get more in almost every week. These cars aren't considered
cream-of-the-crop for the auto salvage brokers, so you can usually walk out
of the yard with an armload of parts for next to nothing.
The reason the "Cabrio" was mentioned, is that the Cabriolet remained
virtually unchanged from 1975 until 1993, so all of the parts are
interchangeable. "Cabrio" refers to post-1993 VW convertibles, and they are
of a different design than the previous models. Virtually all of the parts
from a pre-1994 Cabriolet are interchangeable with the 1975-1984 Rabbits
(with the obvious exceptions).
On the subject of parts interchangeability, there is a vast array of parts
swaps possible in the water-cooled VW/Audi/Porsche platforms. Once you have
a solid Rabbit chassis (no rust, no collision damage), you'll have no limit
to the number of upgrades, retrofits, swaps and customization possible
using parts form the other vehicles in the VW stables. Most of it is
bolt-up. Try that with a Camaro...
If you're paranoid about parts availability, consider converting an A2
chassis, perhaps the Golf, which replaced the Rabbit. The Electro
Automotive kit may not be a bolt in for the A2 chassis, but there is
virtually no difference in the transmission, adapter plate, clutch hub,
etc, they are all the same. There are still a large number of A2 vehicles
on the road, parts for them are even easier than the A1 (Rabbit, Jetta)
chassis.
Remember, no matter which platform you decide to use to build an EV, the
finished product will likely not be worth as much as you put into it during
the conversion process. A $10k converted Rabbit should only be considered
if you will want and use the car yourself. Resale on EV's is typically
pretty dismal.
Finally, if you want to know if there is any enthusiast interest in the VW
Rabbit, I suggest you visit the A1 forum on the VW Vortex, where you'll
find a large committed and helpful group of members who think that the
driving experience of the Rabbit is superior to any econo-box
transportation made before or since...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeroforum?id=11 Oh yes, the battle cry of the
Rabbit crowd is: Die Honda!!! (BTW, the Vortex seems to be down this
evening, try again tomorrow morning.)
-S
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 11:47:17 -0800
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Measuring voltage during charging
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> So is there something else going on with basic lead-acid
>> chemistry that changes the 2.35V/cell other than the temperature
>> effect (which I also recall to be 0.028Vpc/10degF,
>> Vpc=volts-per-cell)? Old lead is the same as new lead in this
>> regard, right? So there must be some other factor going on.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> As a guess the electrolyte is getting contaminated. As I recall
> gassing has nothing to do with the plates, it's just the electrolyte
> composition.
Nawaz Quereshi can no doubt provide a much better answer, but my
understanding is that it is caused by a number of factors. One is that
the electrolyte can have gotten contaminated from adding non-distilled
water.
Another is that the plates of a flooded battery are alloyed with
antimony. Over many charge-discharge cycles, the antimony migrates to
the plate surface, which lowers the gassing voltage and increases the
amount of gassing.
I think sulfation is another contributor, and there are no doubt others.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
