EV Digest 2415
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: NiCads to replace DF6-180?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Evercell and advanced batteries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NiCads to replace DF6-180?
by Mason Convey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Reality Check on Nimh Batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Newbie question re: Rabbit conversions
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: LRR tires: Goodyear Integritys vs Invicta GLRs
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: VW donor questions
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Toyota Celicas
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: NiCads to replace DF6-180?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: evercel
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: LRR tires: Goodyear Integritys vs Invicta GLRs
by Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: LRR tires: Goodyear Integritys vs Invicta GLRs
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) All systems go!
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: RAV-4 milestone
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Replacing my 6.7" ADC motor--advise requested
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Evercel charge algorithm
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: evercel an Stuff
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Scooter Build
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Nov 2002 at 14:01, Marvin Campbell wrote:
> Just bought my first EV and need to replace battery...heh.
> Presently using 18x Sonnenschein DF6-180.
> Anyone with experience upgrading to NiCads out there?
We need a little more detail. Uh, make that a ~lot~ more.
What's the vehicle? What kind of drive system? Brand? AC or DC? Rated
output power? Transmission or direct drive? What's the system voltage?
Current limit? What are the dimensions of the Sonnenschein modules?
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- Begin Message ---
So there is alot hanging on just what the Evercells can do. The range and
cost
make these these the poor man's NiMH battery, that's why they are so
important
to me and this EV list. $10,000 of Evercells is a 45 Kwhr pack.that weighs
in at
2000 lbs.... and would make a nice 515 volt Ac drive pack.
Are we talking a Ranger that would do 200miles on a charge? Or more? Then
how long to charge and with how many chargers? Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
+ We need a little more detail. Uh, make that a ~lot~ more.
Ask and ye shall receive...
1992 Soleq EVcort
Traction Motor: GE compole, separately excited, shunt wound motor w/
cooling fan
Controller: 200 A x 2 (armature), 20 A (field), low battery cutout
Running Control: 2-phase x 200 A = 400 A, 800 Hz
Regenerative Braking: 2 stages, proportional, total regeneration with
an up-chopper, rated at 0-200 A at top 3/4" of brake pedal
Charger: 120 VAC input, 30/20/16 A selectable output, temperature
compensated, charger safety interlock, GFI protected
Batteries: 18 x Sonnenschein DF6V-180 6V Dryfit flat plate
gelled-electrolyte modules
Capacitor Bank: 200 A ripple rate for running and braking
DC-DC Converter: 40 A, temperature compensated, current limited
Auxiliary Battery: 12 V, 12 Ah maintenance-free battery
Air Conditioning: Inverter driven, twin hermetically sealed
compressors w/ cabin thermostat
Heating: 3kW DC powered, electronic, thermostat controlled
Stand-by Cooling/Heating: Powered by the charger's AC supply
Analog Instrumentation: Speedometer, tachometer, state-of-charge gauge
LED displays: Battery voltage, battery current
Controls: Regen switch (three-position), regen voltage, regen current,
coast regen, low battery voltage, acc span
Indicator LEDs: Control logic on, control logic off, armature
chopping, low voltage, high voltage, high temperature
Vehicle Features:
4-door, hatchback w/ cargo room, 5-speed manual
Improved springs and alignment components
Power brakes, windows, and mirrors
Interior in excellent condition
AM/FM cassette
Fully-enclosed battery boxes
Sealed (maintenance-free), gelled-electrolyte batteries
On-board charger and watthour meter
350 A main power disconnect
Center Line wheels
Top Speed: 70+ miles per hour (in 3rd gear)
-~-~- mason s. convey -~-~-
website. http://www.1opossum.com
pager.voicemail. 602.422.7996. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
email. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AOL Messenger. mtnbikeAZ
Yahoo! Messenger. mtnbike_az
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Meier wrote:
> How about designing a pack to provide the necessary range, but charge
> it only to 80%, and discharge to 50%; with an occasional charge to
> 100%. How would that affect lifetime?
Toyota and Honda seem to think that is exactly what you must do to get
long life. The Prius, Insight, and Civic hybrids all work to keep their
nimh batteries in this range.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wish that were so. I am using both and they seem to have simular
tendancies. Now I'm not talking alot but it seems that the .02 to .03
hundredths of a volt will allow a weak battery to stay down. The temp here
in San Francisco has been raising each night for the last few nights and I
had one reg go bad and a few other set a little high and low and behold this
one weak battery takes all night(7 hours of charging) to come up to voltage.
This only after adjusting all 30 mixed regs mk 1c mk1d and mk IIs down from
10.12 or 10.13 to 10.10. If it is cold I have to go the other way. I have
been watching this pack for a few weeks now and after replacing a couple of
batteries I have a very nice battery experience going. Hopefully tonight
with the new reg in and all the regs adjusted again. I will solve the
problem with this one last battery that is a little slow to come up. I
guess what I am saying is will there ever be a reg that you can state the
voltage limit and it will be the same every time at every temp. and won't
cost 50 bucks each. They can do it in music with a quartz controlled
metronome. What would it take or are the mk IIIs on this line? Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> You must have Mk 1 regs... The Mk 2 regs go the correct direction.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:34 AM
> Subject: Rudman Regs a Poem.
>
>
> > Well they do there job but the climate changes. Them milder nights make
> them
> > crazy. Just a couple of hundredths up they go and a straggler goes low.
> > Readjust all thirty and Mr. Ohms law comes to duty. With no where to go
> > this little pup comes up. Like fireflys in the night. Such a delight.
> > Flashing like a school of fish or birds in flight. It's so right. The
> > timer clicks and they have their night. Dialing in is nice but what of
> the
> > digital era. It's enough to make a fellow sweara. The B & W goes one
way
> > Rudman the other. In the cold they go down and the heat they go up.
> That's
> > not the way to train a pup. Temperature sensitive and feed back hay.
> > That's the only way, corrected for temperature OK......Will the Mark
III
> > see this day???? A poem by Lawrence Rhodes....Apologies to every poet
> ever
> > born and to anyone else offended....
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> > > > Unfortunately, I do not have a shaft coming out the end
of the
> > > > motor. And I don't think it's an easy job to put one
there
> > > > either - the whole motor has to come apart, and put in a
> > > > different rotor (?).
> >
> >
> > > Yeah! I have given this a thought, or two. Let me run
> > this idea by EVerybody on my idea for a fix here; What if ya
> > pulled the armature, chucked in a lathe and could centre-bore
> > that end of the shaft, press a new shaft into the hole, like
> > TIGHT fit, maybe welding it in, cutting and grinding the
> > thing smooth...
>
> I'm reading all this and wonder why people go through
> as much trouble as re-machining the motor shaft, put pulleys
> and belts running the vac pumps, if electric vac pumps do it
> for far less money, space, power losses and can be mounted
> anywhere?
>
> Just for love of tinkering? Just curious.
Well one idea I had discussed with people some years ago was
putting a belt-driven generator on such a motor shaft for regen
purposes with a series-wound DC motor. People have done that.
However, I gave up on the whole idea. I think for regen, when
the day comes, I'm also likely to skip sep-ex. Just go for AC
drive, once the price is down to a palatable point for such a
setup, and I'm ready to do it. AC just seems to be the way to go
if you can pull it off.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> :: Sniff ::
>
> Bill Egan said my ass, err, my, uhh, Blazer was too big,
> and heavy for the largest LRR tire size in the Integrity
> model.
>
> The size tire I need for a 5000 lb Blazer is a P235/75R15 .
>
> If I used the
> P215/70R15 SL-001 INTEGRITY VSB TL 402 431 047 97 S CAMI
> I would be chancing it with my weight.
>
> Sounds like Chuck has shown that if you don't have a big-ass
> EV you can good good results with Integrity LRR tires.
I think we had the discussion a couple of months back that your
stated individual tire loads were too high to sum up to the total
weight of the vehicle. So I guess it depends on whether you
believe the total weight of the vehicle (which I would) or the
individual tire loadings that you found. If the total weight of
the vehicle was the correct number, likely you could've gone with
P225/75R15 Integrity's. But alas and alack, class was
starting...
I do like the ride on the Integritys, with a possible drifting
problem at highway speeds, and a lot of amps going down at those
speeds. We'll see how it goes for a few hundred more miles, and
maybe by then I will have had a chance to do a full battery pack
test, since I may have a weak battery or two that show up when
the amps are up for a sustained period. I'm certainly not
rolling up to 60-70mph down the freeway like I could for 5-10
miles with the Invicta GLRs after a good charge. However, my
hill climb (back to my apt) is returning to Invicta speeds.
Seems like some pretty big "feet" out on the corners of my car
:-).
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G wrote:
>
> Michael wrote earlier:
>
> >I want it to be quicker 0-60 than my 192 volt AGM-T-Rex powered BMW, and
> >would like for it to corner and ride as well.
> >I don't plan to enter it in races, and I am not interested in tire
> >spinning...just pure acceleration and decent handling.
>
> What kind of range are you looking for? As the weight goes up it
> takes more and more power to go fast. As the weight goes up the
> Beetle front suspension will show its antique design too. I could see
> 13 Optimas and a DCP1200 being ALOT of fun in a car that doesn't even
> weigh 2000 lbs. If you use GC batteries its nearly impossible to get
> a power to weight ratio any better than 46lbs per HP, a Geo Metro
> only has to pack 33lbs per HP. Of course, alot of Optimas and a T-rex
> would have great scoot and decent range, perhaps that is what you
> have in mind?
>
>
If I stay in DC power mode...I would like to find out if I can fit 16 optimas
in it...that would put my battery pack weight at 770 lbs, with a T-Rex
1200-which should provide some serious scoot.
WATTABMR with 32 Optimas is too heavy-it would be just about perfect with 16
group 31's. If they are actually available, I might think about re-packing it
(for the 3rd configuration--new racks again!) and using my YTs for the new EV
(which doesn't have a name yet).
Is that an unreasonable amount of weight (770 lb battery pack) for a VW?
Are there VW tire/wheel combos that will take that kind of torque and transfer
it efficiently into movement? What about the transaxle?
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What are you asking for?
Do you want the system controller to set the reg voltage limit the same on
all the regs?
That causes a problem if the batteries are not the same temperature.
Do you want the system controller to set the 25C point on all the regs and
then it is locally adjusted by the reg? That causes problems with testing
them because they will not go to the voltage commanded because of the local
temperature variations.
Do you want the system controller to read the temperature of each battery
and adjust the threshold accordingly? The controller would then need to
display the temperature and setpoint of each reg so that the user could
verify the reg is regulating correctly. This requires a level of complexity
that could easily exceed the $50 per node cost for the first several
customers. The Mk 3 may be under that cost per node but the system
controller is not that well defined yet. This is the way all the various
temperature compensation coefficients can be managed. I expect this in the
future, but not in the next year.
I would be pleasantly surprised if they became available in the next year
though.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> I wish that were so. I am using both and they seem to have simular
> tendancies. Now I'm not talking alot but it seems that the .02 to .03
> hundredths of a volt will allow a weak battery to stay down. The temp
here
> in San Francisco has been raising each night for the last few nights and I
> had one reg go bad and a few other set a little high and low and behold
this
> one weak battery takes all night(7 hours of charging) to come up to
voltage.
> This only after adjusting all 30 mixed regs mk 1c mk1d and mk IIs down
from
> 10.12 or 10.13 to 10.10. If it is cold I have to go the other way. I
have
> been watching this pack for a few weeks now and after replacing a couple
of
> batteries I have a very nice battery experience going. Hopefully tonight
> with the new reg in and all the regs adjusted again. I will solve the
> problem with this one last battery that is a little slow to come up. I
> guess what I am saying is will there ever be a reg that you can state the
> voltage limit and it will be the same every time at every temp. and won't
> cost 50 bucks each. They can do it in music with a quartz controlled
> metronome. What would it take or are the mk IIIs on this line? Lawrence
> Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 4:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
>
>
> > You must have Mk 1 regs... The Mk 2 regs go the correct direction.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:34 AM
> > Subject: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> >
> >
> > > Well they do there job but the climate changes. Them milder nights
make
> > them
> > > crazy. Just a couple of hundredths up they go and a straggler goes
low.
> > > Readjust all thirty and Mr. Ohms law comes to duty. With no where to
go
> > > this little pup comes up. Like fireflys in the night. Such a
delight.
> > > Flashing like a school of fish or birds in flight. It's so right.
The
> > > timer clicks and they have their night. Dialing in is nice but what
of
> > the
> > > digital era. It's enough to make a fellow sweara. The B & W goes one
> way
> > > Rudman the other. In the cold they go down and the heat they go up.
> > That's
> > > not the way to train a pup. Temperature sensitive and feed back hay.
> > > That's the only way, corrected for temperature OK......Will the Mark
> III
> > > see this day???? A poem by Lawrence Rhodes....Apologies to every poet
> > ever
> > > born and to anyone else offended....
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 12:55:33PM +1300, Walker, Lesley R wrote:
> As far as I can see, the Tercel is pretty much the same thing as a
> Starlet, maybe a little smaller. There are lots of them (newer
> ones) in the car yards here but they're all automatics, imported
> second-hand from Japan.
I think the Tercel was the successor to the Starlet; I had the 4wd wagon
model (even an '85), and when the engine went in it, I wanted to convert
it, but it was an automatic, and a 4wd, so I ended up getting rid of it.
It's a great car, if a little underpowered in the ICE version.
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED] \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
We've got all the youth we need, how about a fountain of smart?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Nov 2002 at 21:14, Mason Convey wrote:
> 1992 Soleq EVcort
>
>Controller: 200 A x 2 (armature), 20 A (field), low battery cutout
> Batteries: 18 x Sonnenschein DF6V-180 6V Dryfit flat plate
> gelled-electrolyte modules
It sounds like 400 motor amps, which probably means that's as much as the
batteries ever see.
>From this page:
http://www.mhpower.com.au/Batteries/TractionBlock.html
We get the dimensions of the Sonnenschein 6 V/180 as 244 x 190 x 275mm and
mass as 32kg.
The Saft STM5-140MR is 244 x 153 x 260mm, which makes it a drop-in fit with
37mm left over in width (more than enough for air-cooling; 10mm between rows
is all you really need). This module has a capacity of 136ah at the one-
hour rate. Mass is 17kg per module.
I couldn't find anything but the 20hr rate on the Sonnenschein datasheets,
but the similar 180ah East Penn 8GGC2, which has different dimensions but is
based on a licensed Dryfit design, delivers only 99ah at the 1-hr rate.
These are really good batteries for low current applications, but they
suffer mightily at the hands of Dr. Puekert (I should know, I use them too.)
So with STM5-140MRs you'd get 40% more energy and 47% less mass. This seems
like a fairly considerable improvement. You'd probably need to replace the
charger, and you'd want to modify the controller's low-voltage cutoff for
the nicads' lower limit (5 volts per module instead of 5.5).
I hear the Soleq Evcorts are nice cars. Hope you like it.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You won't want this Reg. You want the reg and the charger to drift in the right
direction as the temp of each battery changes. This would be perfect.
The Mk1s didn't drift, or drifted very little. The Mk2 drift the "Right"
direction for Lead acid. They can be tailored to drift on a known slope.
We can adjust the slope for Evercells hot or cold but not both. In the last few
nights of Evercell testing I am not certain that Temp comp is needed.
Your 8 volt Delphis are just about the worst Ev Battery I have come across,
it's almost impossible to keep them in line. Trying to Keep a reg within 10 to
20 Milli volts is foolish. This is not needed, and a waste of your time and
efforts. That a $20 Reg can be adjusted to this level is amazing.
The Mk3 that are Micro based will be set able to the regulation point and
the Drift temp comp offset table. All this fine adjustment will be a waste of
efforts unless we find a affordable temp sensor that is stable over time and
totally accurate on it's temp voltage slope. I think you are asking a $1.00
sensor for Space grade stability. You can't afford a Reg that does this
reliably.
Crystal clock oscillators are by their nature rather stable. But that is
expected with solid state crystals. Still the good ones cost. 100ppm is cheap of
you divide down a 10 Meg crystal to 10Khz. You can't do the same thing with a
10K NTC thermistor. The Micro will have a finite resolution limited to its ADC
8 bit channel, and the quality of the resistor divider and the sensor
thermistor. You may have a nice digital read out of what looks very right, but
the real numbers will be different. It will depend on the aging and calibration
skills of the assembler producer. AKA Sheer or ME.
I already spend 15 to 20 minutes tuning and test every Reg Mk2 the leaves my
hands. Frankly that's way out of line for a $30 buck product. There is way too
much labor involved in each Reg for me to make a decent profit. It's a
necessity,. and a matter of pride. This is also why I have user adjustable
pots, if you don't
like how I tuned it up , then adjust to you liking.
The Mk3s will have the ability to self learn and self calibrate them selves,
hopefully safe time in the test and tune quality control step of manufacturing.
I still have not seen one work as envisioned. But I hear they are sucking data
at the moment.
A spot on set reg is NOT what we need. Been there done that. Your batteries
will never be the same on any charge cycle. This all degrades into a Gray area,
what is needed and how to get it becomes a matter of what you want to spend and
what you need to spend to get the job done.
What's the JOB ??? Is a $100 dollar reg cost effective???
A $20 reg protecting a $200 Optima was the founding concept.
I don't know if having a $50 Reg to protect a $40 battery is a cost effective
solution.
It's starting to look like a $1500 dollar charger is better money spent than
cheap batteries with $500 worth of Regs and a $500 charger. You can do more
safely with a programmable charger than a programmable dissipater of OVER charge
energy.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I wish that were so. I am using both and they seem to have simular
> tendancies. Now I'm not talking alot but it seems that the .02 to .03
> hundredths of a volt will allow a weak battery to stay down. The temp here
> in San Francisco has been raising each night for the last few nights and I
> had one reg go bad and a few other set a little high and low and behold this
> one weak battery takes all night(7 hours of charging) to come up to voltage.
> This only after adjusting all 30 mixed regs mk 1c mk1d and mk IIs down from
> 10.12 or 10.13 to 10.10. If it is cold I have to go the other way. I have
> been watching this pack for a few weeks now and after replacing a couple of
> batteries I have a very nice battery experience going. Hopefully tonight
> with the new reg in and all the regs adjusted again. I will solve the
> problem with this one last battery that is a little slow to come up. I
> guess what I am saying is will there ever be a reg that you can state the
> voltage limit and it will be the same every time at every temp. and won't
> cost 50 bucks each. They can do it in music with a quartz controlled
> metronome. What would it take or are the mk IIIs on this line? Lawrence
> Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 4:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
>
> > You must have Mk 1 regs... The Mk 2 regs go the correct direction.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:34 AM
> > Subject: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> >
> >
> > > Well they do there job but the climate changes. Them milder nights make
> > them
> > > crazy. Just a couple of hundredths up they go and a straggler goes low.
> > > Readjust all thirty and Mr. Ohms law comes to duty. With no where to go
> > > this little pup comes up. Like fireflys in the night. Such a delight.
> > > Flashing like a school of fish or birds in flight. It's so right. The
> > > timer clicks and they have their night. Dialing in is nice but what of
> > the
> > > digital era. It's enough to make a fellow sweara. The B & W goes one
> way
> > > Rudman the other. In the cold they go down and the heat they go up.
> > That's
> > > not the way to train a pup. Temperature sensitive and feed back hay.
> > > That's the only way, corrected for temperature OK......Will the Mark
> III
> > > see this day???? A poem by Lawrence Rhodes....Apologies to every poet
> > ever
> > > born and to anyone else offended....
> > >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
> Rich,
> It seems it would be in their best interest to cycle them
> before sending them out? If it is this critical for the first several
> cycles I would think they need to do it themselves. They look like
> interesting batteries for the high voltage AC systems.
> Rod
>
> .I agree with the they should do the qual testing, then gives us a date after
> which we should "rewake them"
Nice for Ac drives. But DC drive are also a good idea, If you have enough parallel
strings.
>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I'm certainly not rolling up to 60-70mph down the freeway like I could
>for 5-10 miles with the Invicta GLRs
What I think this confirms for us once again is that there is no suitable
substitute for the Invictas. Too bad the EV market is such a peanut whistle
sized share of the tire business. Seems like someone (maybe even Goodyear)
could resurrect the tooling for the GLR's and put out a specialty line of
LRR tires for us.
For cryin' out loud, look through any classic car restoration magazine, you
can buy reproduction tires made with modern materials for just about
*anything* that rolls. No, they're not cheap, but neither was my first set
of GLR's after the shipping from Florida was added to the purchase price...
How about it, anyone actually approach Bill Egan about a reissue of the GLR
tires? I could be great public relations gimmick for Goodyear, maybe make
up just a little for those SUV tires that they got in so much trouble for.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Nov 2002 at 8:20, Sharkey wrote:
> What I think this confirms for us once again is that there is no suitable
> substitute for the Invictas. Too bad the EV market is such a peanut whistle
> sized share of the tire business.
The real problem is that fuel efficiency in cars is neglected.
Fifteen years or so ago, when the automakers were still selling a fair
number of land yachts, they did everything they could to get their CAFE up.
That included LRR tires on everything that rolled. If they could get
another 7% on top of the 36mpg that an Escort already got, that would offset
part of another Crown Vic.
So it wasn't that hard to find LRR tires that worked quite nicely with EVs,
even though they'd been meant for high (make that highER) efficiency dino-
burners. The Invicta GLR was in fact developed as an OE tire for Toyota or
Honda, IIRC, not as a replacement tire.
These days the big cars are just about dead, replaced with even porkier SUVs
and pickups. The automakers are worried about CAFE in the "light truck"
lines, not in the car lines.
Nevertheless, there are still a few LRR tires being made, though probably
not in the same range of sizes we had 10 years ago. But if you are going to
find LRR tires, it will be almost surely in an OE range, not replacement
range; when Joe Sixpack puts new tires on the family Blazer or Caravan, he
looks at price and appearance and maybe tread life, not rolling resistance.
So anything you get will usually be a special order item. Or you can go to
a boneyard and try to find good, low mileage used OE tires.
BTW, I used to run Invicta GLRs. They were the noisiest tires I've ever
used, bar none, and I didn't think they had very good traction (some people
have reported different results; it may depend on the size). But they did
roll and roll, seemingly for days.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, after much effort, I finally have the last system operational - the
battery heater system. It appears to be working beautifully so far, but it
is still in the testing phase.
As we all know, when the pack is split into several chunks (4 in my case),
each chunk tends to have its own thermal requirements due to a number of
things. You can fit more insulation around some than around others, there
are differences in thermal masses, etc. I have a 10 battery chunk in the
back, three batteries together on the firewall, five where the radiator was,
and one in front of the brake master cylinder by itself. I needed at least
4 zones.
I am using KTA services battery heater pads, because no one I contacted was
able to beat that price, either in similar construction (mica sandwich), or
in the silicone mat style. They seem to work well.
KTA sells a nice control system to go with their heater pads, but it costs
over $200, and only controls 1 zone, although it has a high current handling
capability. I wanted a system as close to "set and forget" as possible, but
was not willing to pay the price for four of these systems. I thought it
would overheat some batteries, while letting others get too cool. These
systems were also fairly large, physically, and it would have been difficult
to mount them in the space available.
I used four 5CX-142 controllers from McShane
(http://www.mcshaneinc.com/html/5CX-140.html), homepage at
www.mcshaneinc.com. These are available in a variety of styles and power
handling capabilities (up to 15 amps - The most I needed was 350 watts / 120
volts = 3 amps - I got the 6 amp rated version), and were between $40-$60
each. A thermal sensor is required for each. These are available in a
variety of style (more on that later), for a variety of temp. ranges. They
range from $10-$20 each. I added a second AC input just for these heaters.
I mounted them so they are easily accessible (and removable in the summer),
and added aluminum sheets/plates attached to the batteries to mount the
sensors to. The final cost (less the KTA heater pads) was around $320, for
a four-zone, fully proportional battery heating system. Much better than
what would have been possible for four of the KTA controllers.
I did have some problems. Initially, I used the TXO-2 "surface mount"
temperature sensors. These would seem to be a good choice, but when I tried
to strip a length of insulation off of the wire which I had cut to length,
the other end popped out of the sensor (1 sensor toast)! Then, when I was
installing another, the entire sensor head popped off of the mounting plate
(2 sensors toast). Later, another one had the wire pop out before I had
even unwrapped the wires (3 sensors toast). That style is very sensitive to
physical stress on the wires. The metal sheated version is much more suited
for EV use. I wound up with only one of the surface mount style sensors.
For the rest, I used the TXO-64 mounting style (1 was free - a replacement
for the one that popped off of the plate). The big advantage is that it
only requires one screw! A disadvantage is that the eyelet has a tendency
to crack if the screw is tightened too much, though this does not afect the
sensor.
I have recieved excellent response times, both in technical support and in
shipments, from McShane. Kevin Johnson, the representative I worked with,
was very knowledgeable, and addressed problems quickly. They have
controllers that run off of AC or DC, that heat or cool. They can be used
to control resistive heaters like I am using, thermoelectric devices, fans,
etc. They are flexible on input devices, too. I'm using thermistors. They
have models for use with thermocouples and RTD's as well. Lastly, they have
fully proportional controllers and simple on-off switchers. Various daq
options (RS-232, alarms, etc.) are also available.
So far, this seems to be working out beautifully. I would consider using
this style of system for a thermal control system (heating or cooling) for
batteries in any EV.
Dave Brandt
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THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY TO WHICH IT IS ADDRESSED, AND MAY
CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL AND EXEMPT FROM
DISCLOSURE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU
SHOULD DELETE THIS MESSAGE IMMEDIATELY AND YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY
READING, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE, OR THE
TAKING OF ANY ACTION BASED ON IT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. THANK YOU.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Utility's EV Fleet Is First Anywhere to Log 8.5 Million Miles
>
> LOS ANGELES, Nov. 7 /PRNewswire/ -- The odometer on one of Southern
> California Edison's (SCE) electric vehicles (EVs) rolled over to 100,000
> miles today -- the farthest any plug-in EV anywhere has traveled in
> real-world driving applications.
snip
Ahem, I put 120k on my Electro-Metro in the 90's and close to 87k on my
cheese wedge (Commuta-Car) in the 80's. I'm still driving about 300 miles
per week to work etc. in my converted 96' Geo tracker.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's finally time to replace my ADC 6.7" motor on my Pulsar. It's just
too small for the task it needs to do. Also, since my current job is ending
soon, and my new one will almost certainly involved freeway travel, I've
got to get going on the motor replacement. Just search for "Mark Dodrill"
on the EVALBUM to see full specs for my car.
I want to get the list's help with a to-do list for my motor replacement.
Here are the things I know of that I need to do--please let me know if
I've missed anything, or if there are specific things I need to consider,
but haven't.
1. Purchase new motor and ship it to me. I'm thinking either a ADC 8" or
a WARP 8". A 9" ADC is just too big weight and size wise--also, I think
it will destroy the transmission with all the torque. Can someone tell
me what the practical differences are between these? Motor curves on the
WARP would be helpful too--I didn't see any on the web site.
2. Adapter plate changes? From what I've learned, it sounds like some modification
to the adapter plate will need to be made, but I'm not sure how much or
who in the Seattle are can do it, or how long it will take.
3. Mounting changes for the motor. I'm sure it will have to be adjusted
somehow, but I probably need to get everything apart before I can know for
certain.
4. Time to swap it out? I'm guessing less than one Saturday, assuming I
have the adapter plate changed appropriately.
5. Person to help me out? Roy are you listening??? :)
6. Getting rid of the old 6.7" motor--if you are interested, contact me
off-list. I'll give you a deal.
Thanks for the help/advice.
Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Fred and Rich,
>
> Looks like the difference is due to the number of cells in a given module.
>
> I remember that Sheer's MB100's only had 7 cells. Any of Evercel's 7-cell
> blocks has a lower overall voltage, which is why they advise charging up to
> 14v/block.
>
> The new M80-8 is an 8-cell block. That's why Evercel's specs show charging
> up to 16v/block.
>
> Doesn't look like an error. The difficulty is a single Evercel NiZn cell is
> not equivalent voltage to a single Pba cell, either flood or VRLA.
>
> -Ed Thorpe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fred whitridge [mailto:fw@;ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:48 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Evercel charge algorithm
>
> Rich:
>
> I didn't make up the charge algorithm, I took it off of:
>
> http://www.evercel.com/chargingalgorithms.html
>
> Scroll down to look at what they suggest for the MB80.
>
> And I wholeheartedly agree not to scare Evercel or even believe they have
> their algorithms locked down. Thats why I posed the question.
What I am seeing is the spec for the 8 Cellers is posted, but I have
yet to see a real one.
Chances are that if one of us lands a Evercell 100 it's going to be a 7
Cell block.
I plan on waiting for the 8 cell blocks for my next EV
Lets be slow and prudent, so we don't break them before we learn from
them.
Hey I have to go now and buttom up a PFC20 Buck enhanced... so I can
Charge Evercells with it this weekend.
I am getting a LOT of practice.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:04 AM
> Subject: Re: evercel
>
> Snip!
>
> > Your algorithm is very wrong.
> > Less than 58 amps and never exceed 14.2 volts is what I am using.
> Higher charge currents generate more heat. But if cold this is not a issue.
> Lester chargers would be DEATH in less than a single cycle. DON't do it.
> > We are looking for a once only "commissioning" charge like the NiCads
> have. We are finding this out by trial and error.
> > The PFC based full current to a set voltage and then hold the voltage
> until the current tapers seams to be a safe and gentle cycle. We need to
> find a faster method, so we can qualify, the Whole pack faster, and have a
> high level of confidence that
> > all are good and meet the Manufactures specs. It also looks like it takes
> a few dozen cycles to get them up to full capacity. Right now and right out
> of the box you get about %60 of their rated capacity.
> >
> > A big warning to you all, before you all buy containers of them, Lets us
> designers and Battery management contractors get some real cycles on them.
> As I have heard the MB80 have yet to see the light of day. Stick with 15s
> 40s and 100s. The rest is
> > Well vaporware at the moment.
> >
> > This stuff is New and we don't want to shell shock Evercell before we get
> some real time on them. Having a few 100 batteries fail because we all did
> know what we were doing , can have lasting consequences. Remember we Scared
> Advanced DC out of the
> > experimental motor business a few years back. Lets not do the same to
> Evercell.
>
> BUT we DID bring Warfield Electric INTO the motor biz for us! Better motors
> for ALL of us!
> >
>
> Hi Rich an' All;
>
> Good points! Do you think I'm jumping the gun to wanna get some Evercells
> for an EV? EVen the tried and true ones like Sheer has in the Honda? What is
> he charing with? can I get that setup too. There must be a friendly charging
> regimen for these things? I know yur working on it. If I actually BUY these
> cells, I'm in line for your charger. can't have one without the other. Seems
> like Evercell could use a few test pilots.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
Yea I see that in the next 6 months Evercells will rule this market.
They have test pilots, and such, but they still don't have a solid
sales and distribution group. Hand onto your money until they do.
Hey I have to get a 20 buttoned up and my Butt on a Plane and the light
are flickering here with 40 MPH gusts and rain and good old Seattle
Weather. I don't like the power bench bucking and kicking while I am
installing the Souls of good machines!!!
Later.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, all my research has come up diddly for a scooter that can pull my
weight (320lbs) any real distance.
So in true American fashion, I'm gonna build one. The fact that I have
absolutely no idea what I am doing just makes it better!!
I'm rummaging around in the toolshed for pipe framing and angle iron to
build a body, and I'll likely hit the thrift shops and the Harbor Freight
for wheels and brakes of some kind.
Anyone out there have any small electric motors or controllers that would
work well for this project? I'd be willing to pay a fair price for 'em.
I'd also be willing to pay someone to help me properly design the bloody
thing.
Anyway, thus far I have come to the conclusion that, given my weight and the
range I'd like to get, I need at least 3/4 horsepower and 48 volts.
So if we say 600 watts at 48 volts that means a sustained 12.5 amps with
surges up to about 30 or more. Not too bad I guess.
So am I on the right track here or is this too low (or high?) powered?
Thanks in advance.
James
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