EV Digest 2417
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Theoretical range/performance
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Hybrid Evercell/AGM pack?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Toyota Celicas, Starlets and Tercels
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: evercel
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: evercel
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: LRR tires: Goodyear Integritys vs Invicta GLRs
by Jeremy Maus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) exide
by "Richard Millhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: evercel vs AGM - Basis for a FAQ somewhere
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) S10 engine weight
by "Chad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: S10 engine weight
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: S10 engine weight
by "Chad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: S10 engine weight
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: S10 engine weight
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: S10 engine weight
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: S10 engine weight
by "Chad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: exide
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Sevcon DC/DC slow cooking aux. batt.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: evercel
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) eGO electric scooter on CNN (longish)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Curtis 1244
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Curtis 1244
by "cox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EVcort Batteries/DF6V-180>NiCad Upgrade
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Sevcon DC/DC slow cooking aux. batt.
by "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Sevcon DC/DC slow cooking aux. batt.
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps combining the two methods would produce the best answer, with
little increase in complication. Bill's is good, but assumes the
weight of the car doesn't change too much. Percent battery weight is
good, but doesn't account for aerodynamic effects, or poor rolling
resistance. So I propose a "Neon-Dube" equation:
original weight mpg
Miles of range = ------------------ x ----- x lbs of batteries
converted weight 500
This way if the conversion is heavier than the original car, the
extra weight cuts down on the range. Some fine tuning of the "500"
constant might be warranted, too.
--- Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bill Dube wrote:
> > When the discussion turns to range estimates, I always chime in
> with:
> >
> >
> > MPG x (lb of batteries)
> >Maximum Range = ---------------------------------------
> > 500
> >
> > Where Maximum Range is in miles, and MPG is the miles per
> >gallon the car had before conversion. This assumes an ordinary
> ICE,
> >typical vehicle, ordinary lead-acid batteries, and a well set up
> >conversion with low RR tires and good alignment.
>
> I just tried that on a few cars and often its not far off from what
> I
> use to figure range. However, in some cases it came out with
> numbers
> that I wouldn't believe (I suppose that indicates that some engines
>
> are more/less efficient that average).
>
> I like:
>
> (lbs of batteries)
> -------------------------------- =Y
> lbs of vehicle converted)
>
> If Y is 33% (0.33) let X be 0.05. For each percent that Y is
> greater
> than 33% increase X by 0.001. For each percent that Y is less than
> 33% decrease X by 0.001.
>
> (lbs of batteries) * X = Maximum Range
>
> This has the advantage of working for more customized vehicles
> where
> the original MPG data is meaningless, as well as older vehicles
> that
> lack MPG data. It also solves the question of which engine option
> to
> use for figuring range.
>
> My Buggy:
> 450
> ------- = Y = 31.7%
> 1420
>
> 450 * 0.049 = 22 miles of range
>
> In practice that is not true, its actually 20 miles. However, the
> wheels and tyres where chosen for looks instead of rolling
> resistance, its got the areo qualities of a drag chute, and with a
> car that light the driver increases the weight quite a few more
> percent than in a normal conversion. Seems to do pretty good.
>
> One of the cases where our methods differ is to try 10 Optimas in a
>
> stock Beetle. I'm coming up with about 17 miles, but the mileage
> method is about 25.
>
> Neon
>
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This has been my concept since the Evercell/AGM thread started.
NON buck enhanced PFC-20 or 50s will run off DC if you change the input
breaker to a DC rated breaker. There are no other required changes.
If you have a buck enhanced model, the input current sensor will also need
to be changed from an AC type to a DC type. Estimated cost is $200. Consult
Rich for further information when he figures out the true cost and
availability of the necessary parts.
There is no requirement for the packs to be the same voltage. You size the
AGM pack to work with your controller and motor. You fill up the rest of the
space with Evercells. The charger takes care of the voltage difference.
If you build the battery pack with this architecture, the charger will need
to be connected from Line to Evercells during charging and have the AGMs out
of the loop. When they get full, the charger will connect from line to AGMs
until they are full. This is necessary because of the difference in the
finishing voltages.
The charger will limit the current draw out of the Evercells to either 20 or
50 amps. You may want to parallel two units to get more average current. You
won't hurt either the Evercells with overcurrent or the AGMs with
overvoltage. The power level out of the Evercells must be more than enough
to run the car at steady speed on level ground. That way the AGMs handle the
accelerations and will get eventually get recharged when the car comes up to
speed or slows down.
Yes the charger can be controlled externally. The remote control port has a
0 to 5 volt line that corresponds to 0 to 100% of rated current. The ground
reference of this port is tied to pack negative so some sort of isolation
would be a good idea. A remote controlled electronic pot is probably the
best was to do it.
You can also control the charge voltage through the same port. A relay to
switch between two set pots is the easiest concept for doing it.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Bebbington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:54 PM
Subject: Hybrid Evercell/AGM pack?
> Hi guys,
>
> All this talk of Evercells has got me thinking
> ( usually a bad thing to do! ;-)
>
> What about using a small-capacity pack of Hawkers
> or other decent, stiff AGMs, to buffer a larger
> pack of Evercells, so the "low-voltage" guys can have
> their cake and eat it too?
> This way, the small AGMs would provide extra
> current to help during acceleration, and could be
> recharged from the Evercells during other times.
> ( by "low-voltage" I mean usual DC conversion voltages,
> e.g. 120v, 144v, 156v etc. )
>
> The specifics of the idea:
>
> I have the chance to buy a used Raptor600 controller.
> Seems like this would be great for a Mini, with something
> like an 8 inch motor. ( fun! fun! )
> This beast has a voltage limit of 156 volts, so high-voltage
> strings of batts are a no-no. I'd like to get more range
> than 156v of Optimas can give, but don't want to break my Mini
> by overloading it with lead! So the thought went through
> my head of using the following:
>
> Small 156v pack of AGMs, maybe 15(ish) Ah.
> Bigger 156v pack of Evercells, maybe 40 or 60 Ah.
> PFC-20 charger, and multiple double-pole contactors.
>
> It works like this
> PFC-20 charges the batteries when plugged into AC power.
> ( regs will feature somewhere I'm sure )
> When driving though, the extra contactors reconnect the
> PFC-20 so it draws from the Evercells and recharges the AGMs.
> AGMs are kept as close to 80 or 90% full as possible,
> and get topped off when the vehicle is recharged.
> ( this would have to be done by some kind of micro -
> - Rich, can the PFC-20 be controlled by external signals,
> such as digital pot chips? )
>
> Basically, the PFC-20 does double-duty as both a charger,
> and as a big honkin' DC-DC. ( is this even possible, Rich ? )
>
> If the AGMs are sized right, you might be able to halve the
> peak currents the Evercells see during accelerations
> ( e.g. 600 battery amps becomes
> 300 Evercell amps and 300 AGM amps )
>
> I guess this'll depend on the ratio between the AGM batteries'
> internal resistances and those of the Evercells....
>
> What do you guys think?
>
> Richard Bebbington
> Electric Mini pickup
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> The Starlet was smaller and lighter than any Tercel.
I'm sure that's the case in your part of the world. I confess
I was talking about the Japanese domestic model Tercels that we
get second-hand here, in New Zealand, on the other side of the
world from where you are, and I thought they would be similar.
Specifically, I was thinking of a hatchback model, and I was
going to point you at a picture of it but I can't find one.
> Rivaling the vererable Datsun 1200 and Chevy Sprint.
Our Starlets are/were considerably smaller than the Datsun 1200.
I know nothing about the Chevy Sprint.
Has anyone got a Universal Translator for car models...?
--
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Sometimes I wake up at night screaming,
with visions of emails dancing in my head"
--- Norman Cates, NatOrg discussion list, July 2001
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
> Have you actually tested the resistance and pull strength of your
> crimps?
Not formally, just Ohmed them and tugged and pulled.
>I am worried they are not really as good as you might like.
>
> The first problem is that I doubt that your 10-ton press could create
> enough pressure to really cold-weld the braided strand to the copper
> tube. The surface area is so large that the pressure per square inch
> would be too low.
>
> If this is the case, then all you have is a friction fit. You can verify
> this by measuring the resistance, while pulling and wiggling on the
> strap. If it varies, you have a problem.
I tried this today. The resistance fluctuated a little as the probes move on
the copper without me moving the cable. It did not fluctuate more when I
pulled and wiggled on the cables. That only means that any fluctuation is
within my margin of measurement error which is pretty big.
>
> You can also dissect one. Trim the copper off the edges. If the upper
> and lower pieces will pry off, and the individual strands of the copper
> braid will separate, this again proves it is not a cold weld.
I did this today. It is not a cold weld. I wonder if I need a cold weld. I
will try pressing one alone and see if it cold welds.
> What I would do is to flux the ends, and dip them in a solder pot. A wet
> rag around the braid just above the joint will prevent solder from
> wicking up the braid.
>
> The solder coating will also prevent corrosion if/when a battery leaks
> or vents. As Ralph Merwin pointed out, you really don't want bare copper
> around battery terminals. Copper corrodes far too quickly around
> sulfuric acid.
This sounds like a better way. Thanks.
Cliff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph,
I am hoping I won't have to plate them with sealed batteries.
>
> Nice looking connectors (and nice web page too). Are you going to have
the
> copper parts plated or tinned? I found that my copper buss bars got
fairly
> corroded within a month of installing them. I cleaned all the buss bars
and
> had them tin plated, and had no more corrosion problems.
>
> Ralph
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
I'm thinking about doing a rolling resistance test in the
"standard" parking lot with the Saturn. This car seems to roll
and roll at 25mph on its OEM Firestones (G680s? - have to check,
and the auto-trans may be pushing a bit), and with its mpg
(mentioned above), I begin to wonder how they stack up. Heck, I
suppose I could be sneaky and transfer them to the Rabbit for the
test and cut out some of the variables... ;->
.......
Hi List,
Chuck, I just replaced the Firestone FR680s on my Saturn SL1 with
Integritys. I am finding that they are quieter, don't hydroplane, and grip
better, but they do use more gas. 35mpg compared to 40mpg - Darn! They
have more wind noise but MUCH less road noise than the Firestone FR680s.
The FR680s did last almost 80K miles.
It also could be that it just got colder and that is why my mileage went
down. 33mpg@0 F compared to 42mpg@90 F. The wind noise might be because I
used a bigger 185 70R14 size than the 175 70R14 OEM tire. But the wind
noise is most likely the more aggressive tread(or not bald thread). Living
in Michigan with speed limits of 70mph, most of my driving is 70mph+. Front
tire pressure on the FR680s were 35psi(35psi max) and 40psi(44psi max) for
the Integritys. Rears were 5psi and 10psi lower.
Your mileage may vary.
Jeremy Maus
Belleville, MI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.emidget.info
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
This is an attempt to collate what is known or believed to be known,
comparing Evercels with AGM batteries. Almost all of this will have
appeared on the list in the last few months, but we seem to be in need of a
FAQ page somewhere. The AGM information is from a Optima Yellowtop
brochure, the Evercell is from their website and comments made on-list.
Where I haven't seen a statement for a parameter, I have inserted ???, if
you know the value, please add it. If I have made any errors, please
correct them. I think the EVtech page would be a good place to host such a
FAQ, but it does need to be accurate. So here we go:
Type:
AGM Optima D34-950 sealed absorbed-glass-mat lead-acid
Evercel MB80-12-8 sealed nickel-zinc alkaline
Mass per 12V nominal module:
AGM 43lbs/19.5kgs
Evercel 36.4lb/16.5kg
Capacity:
AGM C/20 65Ah; C/2 52Ah; C0.2???(John Wayland post 25Ah for EV use)
Evercel C/20 64Ah; C/2 ???Ah; C0.2???(John Wayland post 64Ah for EV use)
Cycle life per %DOD:
AGM 10% ??? 60%??? 100% 350(BCI cycle life, anyone got the spec' on BCI
life??)
Evercel 10% 10,000, 60%??? 100%500 (stated as below 80% of capacity remaining)
Fast recharge time to 90%SOC from 100% discharged
AGM 35min @ 100A(C0.5)
Evercel [2 hours @ 32A] (C2 stated)
Operating temperature range:
AGM preferred????? to ?????, stated ????? to 52C/125F
Evercel stated -10C/14F to +50C/122F, non operating to -20C. preferred
range 10C to 30C
Maximum output current:
AGM MCA(32F,0C) 950A
Evercel (Rich Rudman post) They will make 500+ amps for short burst.(John
Wayland post) 300A safe limit.
Price
AGM:
Evercel(Phil Bardsley post 31 oct 02) $240USea (20+)
Please feel free to add any additional parameters to this list that should
be present. Once it contains all the available information, plese (someone)
post this for all our benefit.
Ta
James Massey
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am thinking of converting a Chevy S10 from gas to electric. I was inspired
by http://www.canev.com/index.html
They are great!!!
well I need to know how much the S10 engine weighs so I will know how many
batts I can put in it.
Any one know?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Nov 2002 at 20:22, Chad wrote:
> well I need to know how much the S10 engine weighs so I will know how many
> batts I can put in it.
If you fit only as many batteries as will match the engine weight, you won't
be going very far in it. That will get you a range of perhaps 5 or 10 miles
(with a tailwind <g>).
If you're using lead batteries, you need at least one-quarter -- better yet
one-third to one-half -- of the vehicle's total weight in batteries to get
useful range.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you know the total weight of the S10?
That is very helpful info.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: S10 engine weight
> On 11 Nov 2002 at 20:22, Chad wrote:
>
> > well I need to know how much the S10 engine weighs so I will know how
many
> > batts I can put in it.
>
> If you fit only as many batteries as will match the engine weight, you
won't
> be going very far in it. That will get you a range of perhaps 5 or 10
miles
> (with a tailwind <g>).
>
> If you're using lead batteries, you need at least one-quarter -- better
yet
> one-third to one-half -- of the vehicle's total weight in batteries to get
> useful range.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think a 4-cylinder engine with gas tank, radiator, exhaust
system, etc. weighs about 450 lbs, a V-6 about 600.
You will surely add more weight for motor, controller,
batteries, etc. than was removed by taking out the engine.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:22 PM
Subject: S10 engine weight
> I am thinking of converting a Chevy S10 from gas to electric. I was
inspired
> by http://www.canev.com/index.html
> They are great!!!
>
> well I need to know how much the S10 engine weighs so I will know how many
> batts I can put in it.
>
> Any one know?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The minimum S-10 (4-cyl engine, regular cab, short box, no
A/C, 2wd, etc.) weighs about 3000 lbs. With V-6, extended
cab, and a full load of accessories the weight is about 3400.
4wd which you probably don't adds about 300 lbs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: S10 engine weight
> Do you know the total weight of the S10?
> That is very helpful info.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Nov 2002 at 21:34, Chad wrote:
> Do you know the total weight of the S10?
> That is very helpful info.
Sorry, I don't know offhand. I've never owned one. There are various
sources on the web with curb weights -- I think Edmunds may have them, I'm
not sure. Or maybe someone else here will know (things are quiet tonight).
There are lots of ways to convert any vehicle, and how you approach it
depends on what you need (vs. want) out of it, and your budget.
A good place to jumpstart your understanding of the conversion process, and
what you can expect to get from it, is the EV list photo album. I count
sixteen S10s there, with pictures and descriptions, though I might have
missed some:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/
The S10 is a fairly popular conversion base because it has lots of room for
batteries under the bed, and can carry the battery weight readily. Pickup
conversions vary, but using 20 to 24 6-volt golf car batteries (120 - 144
volts) seems to be fairly common.
One builder, Brian Matheny, is using ~40~ of them -- his truck weighs over
5000 lb! That many golf car batteries would weigh about 2600 lb, so he's
pretty close to that magic 50% point. He says he gets 120 miles of range
summer, 80 miles winter.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/185.html
Hope this helps.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank You much.
Ya I think you are right.
The motor is 143lbs
The Batts are 1440 lbs
So 1583lbs is a lot more than 450 to 600 lbs.
Thanks again
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: S10 engine weight
> I think a 4-cylinder engine with gas tank, radiator, exhaust
> system, etc. weighs about 450 lbs, a V-6 about 600.
>
> You will surely add more weight for motor, controller,
> batteries, etc. than was removed by taking out the engine.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:22 PM
> Subject: S10 engine weight
>
>
> > I am thinking of converting a Chevy S10 from gas to electric. I was
> inspired
> > by http://www.canev.com/index.html
> > They are great!!!
> >
> > well I need to know how much the S10 engine weighs so I will know how
many
> > batts I can put in it.
> >
> > Any one know?
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have had very good luck with the 6 volt exide 3600 which compare to the
t-105s
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Millhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 6:13 PM
Subject: exide
I recently bought the first six of 18 6 volt batteries for my project, and
I'm wondering if they are going to be o.k. Does anyone have experience with
Exide GC2H's? On paper they compare to T-145's. Thanks
Uncle Rich in Central Oregon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm noticing that I need to keep adding water about
once a month to my aux. batt. Yet a typical ICE
alternator doesn't overcharge the aux. batt. Do other
EVers out there need to do the same? It wasn't
discussed in "Convert It". Just seems like perhaps
it's set too high.
Thanks,
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I solder everthing as sooner or later it will corrode if i don't . I also
noticed more power when I first soldered all my bat connectors and as you
are racing this is what your looking for . what kind of bat post do you
have?
>
> > What I would do is to flux the ends, and dip them in a solder pot. A wet
> > rag around the braid just above the joint will prevent solder from
> > wicking up the braid.
> >
> > The solder coating will also prevent corrosion if/when a battery leaks
> > or vents. As Ralph Merwin pointed out, you really don't want bare copper
> > around battery terminals. Copper corrodes far too quickly around
> > sulfuric acid.
>
> This sounds like a better way. Thanks.
>
> Cliff
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
is that 3 strings of 120 ? 60 bats at 35 $ 30 miles 123v that must have
been with out load . what are the ah on these ( liked your poem)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> Well I did spend 900 bucks on regs for 2200 bucks wortha well lets be
honest
> finicky batteries. I am using a B & W. Guilty as charged. With my stick
up
> the butt approach I have balanced the batteries and with one still comming
> up slow but comming up none the less I drove the car 30 miles and the 120
v
> pack went down to 123v. Not too bad. I have to thank you for creating
such
> a good product that is also user modifiable. I have piggy backed the
boards
> with resistors and made them work for my purposes. Most of the MKIIs
didn't
> need modification and as the batteries have come closer together. Things
> have gotten better. I'm thinking the next pack won't be bargain
batteries.
> They were no bargain in time and scorched regs. I have sort of a unique
> situation. I am just wishing for some way of saving my back from this
micro
> management of my batteries which did work but was very time consuming. If
I
> had better batteries I am sure I wouldn't have had to do the babysitting
> thing. All the regs do go the same way. It is amazing how stable they
are
> once they are all set. Lawrence Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
>
>
> > You won't want this Reg. You want the reg and the charger to drift in
the
> right
> > direction as the temp of each battery changes. This would be perfect.
> > The Mk1s didn't drift, or drifted very little. The Mk2 drift the "Right"
> > direction for Lead acid. They can be tailored to drift on a known slope.
> > We can adjust the slope for Evercells hot or cold but not both. In the
> last few
> > nights of Evercell testing I am not certain that Temp comp is needed.
> > Your 8 volt Delphis are just about the worst Ev Battery I have come
> across,
> > it's almost impossible to keep them in line. Trying to Keep a reg within
> 10 to
> > 20 Milli volts is foolish. This is not needed, and a waste of your time
> and
> > efforts. That a $20 Reg can be adjusted to this level is amazing.
> > The Mk3 that are Micro based will be set able to the regulation
point
> and
> > the Drift temp comp offset table. All this fine adjustment will be a
waste
> of
> > efforts unless we find a affordable temp sensor that is stable over time
> and
> > totally accurate on it's temp voltage slope. I think you are asking a
> $1.00
> > sensor for Space grade stability. You can't afford a Reg that does this
> > reliably.
> > Crystal clock oscillators are by their nature rather stable. But
that
> is
> > expected with solid state crystals. Still the good ones cost. 100ppm is
> cheap of
> > you divide down a 10 Meg crystal to 10Khz. You can't do the same thing
> with a
> > 10K NTC thermistor. The Micro will have a finite resolution limited to
> its ADC
> > 8 bit channel, and the quality of the resistor divider and the sensor
> > thermistor. You may have a nice digital read out of what looks very
right,
> but
> > the real numbers will be different. It will depend on the aging and
> calibration
> > skills of the assembler producer. AKA Sheer or ME.
> > I already spend 15 to 20 minutes tuning and test every Reg Mk2 the
> leaves my
> > hands. Frankly that's way out of line for a $30 buck product. There is
way
> too
> > much labor involved in each Reg for me to make a decent profit. It's a
> > necessity,. and a matter of pride. This is also why I have user
> adjustable
> > pots, if you don't
> > like how I tuned it up , then adjust to you liking.
> > The Mk3s will have the ability to self learn and self calibrate them
> selves,
> > hopefully safe time in the test and tune quality control step of
> manufacturing.
> > I still have not seen one work as envisioned. But I hear they are
sucking
> data
> > at the moment.
> > A spot on set reg is NOT what we need. Been there done that. Your
> batteries
> > will never be the same on any charge cycle. This all degrades into a
Gray
> area,
> > what is needed and how to get it becomes a matter of what you want to
> spend and
> > what you need to spend to get the job done.
> > What's the JOB ??? Is a $100 dollar reg cost effective???
> > A $20 reg protecting a $200 Optima was the founding concept.
> > I don't know if having a $50 Reg to protect a $40 battery is a cost
> effective
> > solution.
> >
> > It's starting to look like a $1500 dollar charger is better money spent
> than
> > cheap batteries with $500 worth of Regs and a $500 charger. You can do
> more
> > safely with a programmable charger than a programmable dissipater of
OVER
> charge
> > energy.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > > I wish that were so. I am using both and they seem to have simular
> > > tendancies. Now I'm not talking alot but it seems that the .02 to .03
> > > hundredths of a volt will allow a weak battery to stay down. The temp
> here
> > > in San Francisco has been raising each night for the last few nights
and
> I
> > > had one reg go bad and a few other set a little high and low and
behold
> this
> > > one weak battery takes all night(7 hours of charging) to come up to
> voltage.
> > > This only after adjusting all 30 mixed regs mk 1c mk1d and mk IIs down
> from
> > > 10.12 or 10.13 to 10.10. If it is cold I have to go the other way.
I
> have
> > > been watching this pack for a few weeks now and after replacing a
couple
> of
> > > batteries I have a very nice battery experience going. Hopefully
> tonight
> > > with the new reg in and all the regs adjusted again. I will solve the
> > > problem with this one last battery that is a little slow to come up.
I
> > > guess what I am saying is will there ever be a reg that you can state
> the
> > > voltage limit and it will be the same every time at every temp. and
> won't
> > > cost 50 bucks each. They can do it in music with a quartz controlled
> > > metronome. What would it take or are the mk IIIs on this line?
> Lawrence
> > > Rhodes....
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 4:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> > >
> > > > You must have Mk 1 regs... The Mk 2 regs go the correct direction.
> > > >
> > > > Joe Smalley
> > > > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > > > Fiesta 48 volts
> > > > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Well they do there job but the climate changes. Them milder nights
> make
> > > > them
> > > > > crazy. Just a couple of hundredths up they go and a straggler
goes
> low.
> > > > > Readjust all thirty and Mr. Ohms law comes to duty. With no where
> to go
> > > > > this little pup comes up. Like fireflys in the night. Such a
> delight.
> > > > > Flashing like a school of fish or birds in flight. It's so right.
> The
> > > > > timer clicks and they have their night. Dialing in is nice but
what
> of
> > > > the
> > > > > digital era. It's enough to make a fellow sweara. The B & W goes
> one
> > > way
> > > > > Rudman the other. In the cold they go down and the heat they go
up.
> > > > That's
> > > > > not the way to train a pup. Temperature sensitive and feed back
> hay.
> > > > > That's the only way, corrected for temperature OK......Will the
> Mark
> > > III
> > > > > see this day???? A poem by Lawrence Rhodes....Apologies to every
> poet
> > > > ever
> > > > > born and to anyone else offended....
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About 4:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time they had a short segment on the new
eGO electric scooter. As usual the press got it all wrong. They complained
about the braking and the feeling that if they braked hard it would go endo
like a bicycle. First, I have tested this scooter and it probably has the
best braking of any scooter on the market. It has very heavy regen coupled
with a manually operated front disc brake and a large surface area bicycle
rim clamp rear brake. All three in unison is quite the stopping power. If
Mark Anthony, the Editor of Electric Scooter and Bicycle Magazine has not
done a 20 to 0 MPH stopping distance for his upcoming article on it I will
put a bug in his ear to make sure he does. The second point about going over
the handlebars is also pure rubbish. This scooter is rather heavy, 120
pounds, which they did mention. All of this weight is well below the axle
center line so it has an extremely low center of gravity which makes it stop
more like a motorcycle. Bicycles on the other hand, except for recumbents,
have a very high center of gravity hence the over the handle bars. This
scooter does get decent range and has great hill climbing ability. On the
down side the motor gets so hot you can't touch it. I believe this is due to
the regen and may be an issue with the brush positioning. I have mentioned
this to the manufacturer and they are looking in to it. They claim that even
though it gets hot it is not an issue as they have done extensive testing
and have not had motor failures. Still in my mind heat is still to be
avoided in any electric vehicle. That is something that is best left to ICE
engines to create. As Bob Schneveis constantly says: "If your creating heat
your not creating horsepower" and horsepower to the ground is what I really
enjoy. Also if you are creating noise you are losing power. You don't need
fancy dynos and test equipment to tell these things. We have all the senses
on board for these evaluations in our hard drive. The eGO has a two belt
drive system in order to get the gearing right. This system does make
appreciable noise. I plan on doing a chain drive version when I get a spare
moment, yeh! tell myself another one. Belt drives have to be so taut to be
effective that I believe they are robbing power on these little motors. They
may be more efficient on larger motors where the bearing surface area to
load is not as extreme. Just a seat of the pants theory. The Rad2Go "Great
White" board scooter uses a chain drive that is relatively silent and
doesn't appear to drag the motor. The motor on this unit barely gets warm
with aggressive wheelstanding take offs and hill climbing. Well, time to get
back to work. It's seven A.M. and Joanne will be showing up at the office
soon .
Roderick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone know if the Curtis 1244 SepEx motor controller is available
for public purchase?
Keith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just Sent an email to Curtis asking about the 1236 AC Induction
Controller.
I hope to use it in an AC Motorcycle project.
You cold send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and see what you get.
Good luck
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
Behalf Of Keith Richtman
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Curtis 1244
Anyone know if the Curtis 1244 SepEx motor controller is available
for public purchase?
Keith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
on 11/12/02 7:40 AM, Mason Convey at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Hi Marvin.
>
> FYI... your batteries were installed new in 1996. Just found that out.
>
> mason
>
>
> -~-~- mason s. convey -~-~-
>
> website. http://www.1opossum.com
> pager.voicemail. 602.422.7996. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> email. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> AOL Messenger. mtnbikeAZ
> Yahoo! Messenger. mtnbike_az
>
Wow. These things are doing great considering they're six years old.
I'm still getting around 28 miles of range out of them.
I'm definitely looking into the NiCad upgrade.
Thanks to yours and David Rodin's assist, I have a little better idea of how
that's going to transpire.
Luckily, the car still runs enough to get around, as I understand it can
take months to get Saft batteries shipped.
Today I'm going to try and contact Soleq regarding charger/controller
issues/mods necessary for a NiCad pack.
I don't know if the vent muffins on the batt boxes will be enough to exhaust
the heat generated by the NiCads. Maybe I'll have to upgrade to greater cfm
as well as put them on a thermostat (in addition to running), though
installing a water-cooled system won't be too hard with only two battery
boxes.
Mine is the fervent ardor of the new initiate, and being a whiner is a good
thing.
Marv
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
92 Soleq EVcort
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm noticing that I need to keep adding water about
> once a month to my aux. batt.
I've never added water to mine in 3 years.
> Yet a typical ICE alternator doesn't overcharge the
> aux. batt.
Is the DC-DC on all the time or switched with the key?
Mine is on/off with the EV, like an alternator.
> Just seems like perhaps it's set too high.
It would have to be set pretty high, like >15V to do
that. Or it's on it's way out and gassing at a low
voltage.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Bob Bath wrote:
> I'm noticing that I need to keep adding water about
> once a month to my aux. batt. Yet a typical ICE
> alternator doesn't overcharge the aux. batt.
The typical ICE alternator doesn't overcharge the aux. batt. because half the time,
it's
returning energy to the battery that was spent cranking over the ICE, while at the same
time, it has to run the lights, fans, etc. During most of the time in the 'average'
runs
of the car, then, the alternator is kept busy while the battery is gradually rising in
its
state of charge. On longer trips, the battery does begin to get a bit 'over-floated' at
around 14.2-14.4 volts. Back when automotive starting batteries had refillable cells
and
were not a gas recombinant type (as pretty much all of today's car batteries are) those
who traveled on the open road for long periods of time, were the ones who's car
batteries
were always 'low on water'. For the most part though, the car battery isn't at 14+
volts
too long so as to cause an over-charging issue.
If you have your DC-DC set to output anywhere from 14.2-14.4 volts so as to mimic the
same level of voltage the vehicle had as a gas powered version, this works great in
providing the right level for crisp and bright headlights, swift wipers, adequate
heater
blower fan levels, etc., but it's too high for 'floating' the 12V back up battery. When
the EV is off and parked, if the DC-DC is holding the 12V back up battery at greater
than
13.1 volts or so, it will be over charging that battery...if that battery is an AGM
sealed
type, it will vent and gas, if it is a wet cell type with refillable cells, it will use
water and need to be watered often. In both cases, the battery will have reduced life.
If
the DC-DC stays at 14+ volts when the EV is off and parked, that poor battery is being
cooked to death.
The EV 12V back up battery is a different animal than the 12V battery used in a gas
vehicle. It never has to expend 200-400 amps cranking over an ICE, and doesn't see this
kind of high current exercise. In EV's without the parasitic draw of an Emeter glowing
away, or absent lots of electronic toys that all have memory circuits to keep energized
(car alarm, car stereo, clock, data acquisition, etc.), the 12V back up battery can
merely
be disconnected automatically via the ign. switch and left to sit unaided by the DC-DC.
Those EV's that do have an Emeter and memory circuits to keep powered-up, need to keep
a
float charge thing going while the EV is off and parked. The trick is, to keep that
float
charge at around 13.1V ....this level will not over charge the 12V battery.
> Do other EVers out there need to do the same?
Many of us do things a bit differently, by using a smaller 12V back up battery (to save
weight) and a more powerful and more versatile DC-DC that has two output voltage
settings
that are selectable.
Having a more powerful DC-DC that can run everything in the EV at 14+ volts without
help
from the 12V back up battery, ensures that all of the vehicle's 12V circuits run as
they
designed to, so the headlights are always bright even if you are at the same time,
running
a rear window defogger, or the wipers, or the heater blower on 'high', or a powerful
sound
system, or all at the same time. The 12V back up battery should be there mainly to
provide
extra 'oomph' under high current surges (such as when things are first switched-on),
and
secondarily, to provide a back up power supply in the event that the DC-DC were to
fail.
With a powerful enough DC-DC, there is no need to pack around a large, heavy, wet cell
type 12V battery, such as the one I suspect Bob has in his EV.
Having the dual voltage thing works out great. When the EV is off and parked, the DC-DC
drops down to a float charge level and keeps all the memory circuits powered while
maintaining the 12V back up battery at around 13.1V. When the EV is on, a relay shunts
out
the voltage selector of the DC-DC, causing it to raise its output voltage to 14+ volts.
A third feature can be added to make the 12V back up battery live a very long time.
The EV
should be designed, so that you can deselect the DC-DC and give the 12V back up
battery a
discharge every once in a while, such as turning on the headlights for a half hour,
running the stereo for a while, etc. This occasional exercise is good for the
battery...without it and with the constant float charge (even if it's at the
recommended
13.1V level) and a powerful DC-DC that doesn't rely on the 12V back up battery to run
things, the battery will begin to atrophy and lose capacity.
> It wasn't discussed in "Convert It".
No surprise there :-)
> Just seems like perhaps it's set too high.
It is, if you are talking about the level for when the EV is off and parked, but it
isn't
in regards to when the EV is on and needing all of its 12V electricals to run at 14+
volts. You need to either change to a more versatile DC-DC with a dual output voltage
system, create a kick-down setup for the Sevcon so it won't continually over charge the
battery, or, if you keep a large capacity battery on board as the 12V back up battery,
simply turn off the DC-DC when the EV is off and parked, and let the 12V battery run
the
aforementioned parasitic 12V loads. If you choose the last option and if you don't
allow
the battery to get totally drained, the discharging will be good for the battery, but
if
the EV sits for too long, well, I think you get the idea.
Good luck, hope this info helps.
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
