EV Digest 2443
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Efficiency Comparison: CivicWithACord vs. VoltsRabbit #2
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Motor Brushes, possible source
by billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Is the list on?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) re: traction motor repair
by "Roy Reker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Efficiency Comparison: CivicWithACord vs. VoltsRabbit #2
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 250v 30 amp Twist connector almost DUH.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor Brushes, possible source
by Michael Shipway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Electric bus Info request
by billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) E-meter price/availability
by billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EV Digest 2442 - Wed. 11/27 .. 16 messages, only got ONE
by "Steven S. Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: E-meter price/availability
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Surplus aircraft nicads
by billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Efficiency Comparison: CivicWithACord vs. VoltsRabbit #2
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Ceramic heater voltage
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Surplus aircraft nicads
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Efficiency Comparison: CivicWithACord vs. VoltsRabbit #2
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Efficiency Comparison: CivicWithACord vs. VoltsRabbit #2
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Mo' Info Re: Eff. Comp. CivicWithACord vs. VoltsRabbit #2
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Surplus aircraft nicads
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Ceramic heater voltage
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Descriptions:
Vehicle #1: 144V system, 8VUSGC (160 Ah reg. model),
DCP Raptor 600A controller, 8" ADC motor, 92 Honda
Civic hatchback body, and driver commuting 44
miles/trip. 3302 lbs. (back-of-the-napkin WAG)
Vehicle #2: 128V sytem, 8VUSGC (178 Ah high cap.
model) , 500A Curtis controller, 9" ADC motor, 81
Rabbit body, and driver commuting 5 mi./trip. 3001
lbs.
Symptoms:
Driver of vehicle #1 pulls 320A max from his
controller, or at voltage, roughly 46kW.
Driver of vehicle #2 pulls 460A max from his
controller, or at voltage (not counting sag), or 61kW.
Driver of vehicle #2 jealous of vehicle #1 range,
(even though extra range not needed) and as typical
wannabe engineer (if it works, fix it better) wants to
know why. Listers, which do you think is the main
cause? Which is the least likely?
1) Higher operating voltage means less current draw &
better efficiency.
2) Vehicle #1 driver stretching range on a daily
basis, so batts. more used to cycling harder, which
inc. range.
3) DCP Raptor a more efficient controller than
Curtis.
4) High capacity model battery providing less volume
for sulfuric acid circulation due to more active
material on the plates.
5) Civic a much more aerodynamic body shape than
Rabbit (though with 2 more batts. and a bit more body
weight in general, that might be a draw)?
6) Other overlooked: tires & rolling resistance,
tranny needs repair, etc.
7) A combination of the above/which?
Appreciatively,
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:16 PM 11/27/2002 -0800, Lee Hart wrote:
Lin Tse Hsu wrote:
> So one could get 72% less capacity in the same space
> as an Optima? This might actually decrease the range.
Normally, nicads would increase your range. However, I was looking at
old surplus nicads.
They would IF I could find ones that fit. The only ones I've found that
both fit and would increase capacity - aren't being built. If they don't
exist, it's not much of an option.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Guys, a friend of mine found this place, he says the prices are real
reasonable and they make any size. this is probally where all those
"profeteers" are getting the brushes they re-sell for 150$ ? per set.
http://www.advancecarbon.thomasregister.com/olc/advancecarbon/home.htm
Also I found a real informative paper on brushes, commutators etc.
http://www.reliance.com/mtr/cmdcbrmn.htm
Advance Carbon Products, Inc.
2036-T National Ave.
Hayward, CA 94545
USA
Tel: 800-260-8580
Fax: 510-293-5939
Product Description
Replacement & Custom-Engineered Carbon Brushes. Engineering Assistance
Available For Design, Grade Application Or Commutation Problems
http://www.advancecarbon.thomasregister.com/olc/advancecarbon/home.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Walker, Lesley R wrote:
> Your message has taken 10 hours to get through to where I am.
FWIW, it took a similar amount of time for it to get to me (sent 08:56,
appeared 18:45), and before it did, I had received 2-3 posts from
others.
At the same time that I sent my post to the list, I also sent a query to
the list server to ensure it hadn't just unsubscribed me or some such.
The list server replied about the same 10hrs later, suggesting to me
that traffic in or out of the server was blocked.
Traffic remains unusually light even now, while one would have expected
a bit of a flood immediately after ~22hrs worth of queued messages
started to flow...
Well, at least I can take comfort knowing it isn't singling me out ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:55 PM 11/26/2002 -0800, Lee Hart wrote:
>> The 24 cells would weigh 38 lbs; 87% of the weight of the Optimas. But
>> Optima capacity at the 1-hour rate is about 40ah, so these nicads are
>> about 72% less capacity. If you crowd some extras in here and there to
>> get back to the same weight, you'd have about 33ah (equivalent), which
>> is 82% of an Optima's rated capacity.
>>
>> Not an exact hit, but it shows there is some promise for the idea. Try
>> looking for surplus nicads and see what you can find.
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> Umm, how does it show promise? It reduces capacity, and thus range.
It was just the first surplus nicad I found. These are 10 year old
batteries, and not the best choice. Yet, they provided 82% of an
Optima's capacity, which is probably better than the batteries you have
now. And, 3 years and 1000 cycles from now, they will *still* have that
capacity.
> I went through the Saft manuals. They did list 1 cell which could
> fit in the space, and which would have resulted in a significant
> increase in capacity. The problem is that they don't actually make
> that cell. They don't make any NiCd's which would both increase
> capacity and actually fit in the space required.
I know; that's why I'd watch the surplus markets. There are lots more
sizes than what are currently being produced. The prices will be much
better, too.
> I even looked at their NiMh batteries. I could fit a set of those in,
> for increased capacity! Only $30,000.
Yes, nimh are largely Unobtainium. The only hope is to find a used set
from a Toyota Prius or Honda Insight.
> It would be possible to make a full pack from those discounted NiMh C
> cells. I think it came out to around 3-4 thousand. But then you need
> a special charging setup, AND a new specialized controller to handle
> multiple strings that can't be directly connected in parallel.
The Swiss Twike used this approach. It has 2 or 3 packs of nicad C
cells, with around 300 cells in each pack. Yes, there is a lot of
electronics to control charging and balancing!
> Somehow, those options don't seem like especially good choices.
No, I would agree with you. What it will take is to spot some surplus
deal for a higher capacity battery that makes you say "Bingo!".
Otherwise, the Evercells may be the most straightforward choice.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One good test is better than ten expert opinions.
You did not mention the speed each car is driven nor if any hills are
involved. This makes a significant difference.
Do a coast down test on both cars at the same location.
Use two people. One to drive and one to record data.
Get the cars up to speed (65 MPH) on a reasonably level road with no
traffic.
Lift off the throttle put the car in neutral and start a stopwatch.
When the car drops from 65 to 60 record the time.
Do the same from 60 to 55 on down to a stop.
Repeat the test with the car in gear.
You can calculate the negative power during each test period with the
formula
Weight * (V1^2-V2^2) / time (be careful with the units)
This represents the frictional losses that need to be overcome to hold the
car at speed.
Doing this twice (with and without the motor turning) will indicate how much
power is needed to turn the motor (and fan if used).
If there is a large difference in the two tests on the same car, the motor
(fan) is consuming a significant amount of power to rotate.
If there is a significant difference in the coast down tests for the two
cars, the problem is mechanical or aerodynamic friction. The test with the
motor not turning will indicate a chassis problem and the test with the
motor turning will indicate a motor problem.
If the cars come out with the same coast down numbers, then the difference
is electrical, not mechanical.
This difference between the cars could then be identified between the
batteries or the controller by doing a battery draw down test using a fixed
load. You will know the power requirements from the coast down tests that
were done earlier.
You can also do constant power tests on a level road. See how many kW are
needed to hold each increment in speed 20,30,40 50 MPH etc. See how these
match up with the coast down requirements.
Test the battery packs to see how long they will sustain each electrical
load to see how many minutes the car will be able to maintain that speed.
Wherever the cars differ, that is where to look for improvement.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 7:13 AM
Subject: Efficiency Comparison: CivicWithACord vs. VoltsRabbit #2
> Descriptions:
> Vehicle #1: 144V system, 8VUSGC (160 Ah reg. model),
> DCP Raptor 600A controller, 8" ADC motor, 92 Honda
> Civic hatchback body, and driver commuting 44
> miles/trip. 3302 lbs. (back-of-the-napkin WAG)
>
> Vehicle #2: 128V sytem, 8VUSGC (178 Ah high cap.
> model) , 500A Curtis controller, 9" ADC motor, 81
> Rabbit body, and driver commuting 5 mi./trip. 3001
> lbs.
>
> Symptoms:
> Driver of vehicle #1 pulls 320A max from his
> controller, or at voltage, roughly 46kW.
> Driver of vehicle #2 pulls 460A max from his
> controller, or at voltage (not counting sag), or 61kW.
>
> Driver of vehicle #2 jealous of vehicle #1 range,
> (even though extra range not needed) and as typical
> wannabe engineer (if it works, fix it better) wants to
> know why. Listers, which do you think is the main
> cause? Which is the least likely?
>
> 1) Higher operating voltage means less current draw &
> better efficiency.
> 2) Vehicle #1 driver stretching range on a daily
> basis, so batts. more used to cycling harder, which
> inc. range.
> 3) DCP Raptor a more efficient controller than
> Curtis.
> 4) High capacity model battery providing less volume
> for sulfuric acid circulation due to more active
> material on the plates.
> 5) Civic a much more aerodynamic body shape than
> Rabbit (though with 2 more batts. and a bit more body
> weight in general, that might be a draw)?
> 6) Other overlooked: tires & rolling resistance,
> tranny needs repair, etc.
> 7) A combination of the above/which?
>
> Appreciatively,
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is fine for keeping dirt off. But if it isn't sealed from the top
water from the top water will go down the cable. I didn't want to put a cap
on. Just something else to loose. I just cut holes in the black tape in
three places on the bottom and hope that is enough to let the water through.
Lawrence Rhodes..... Theory being that if the water goes through it won't
be a problem......
> the bottom of the 250v Hubbel male twist for the filler as a spot
> for dirt and water intrusion.
...
> How are others handling this
Not sure if I have the same exact twist connector housing being
discussed, but I solved the problem by using a PVC pipe cap over
the back of the connector that just so happened to be a perfect
fit. I drilled a hole in the center of the cap and installed
a weatherproof compression strain relief from Home Cheapo.
The cord I used was 3 conductor 12 gauge neoprene. I siliconed
everything in place and it hasn't leaked yet in 5 years.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
billb wrote:
>
> Hi Guys, a friend of mine found this place, he says the prices are real
> reasonable and they make any size. this is probally where all those
> "profeteers" are getting the brushes they re-sell for 150$ ? per set.
> http://www.advancecarbon.thomasregister.com/olc/advancecarbon/home.htm
>
> Also I found a real informative paper on brushes, commutators etc.
> http://www.reliance.com/mtr/cmdcbrmn.htm
>
> Advance Carbon Products, Inc.
>
> 2036-T National Ave.
> Hayward, CA 94545
> USA
> Tel: 800-260-8580
> Fax: 510-293-5939
>
> Product Description
> Replacement & Custom-Engineered Carbon Brushes. Engineering Assistance
> Available For Design, Grade Application Or Commutation Problems
> http://www.advancecarbon.thomasregister.com/olc/advancecarbon/home.htm
They say "Brush quantities are manufactured from one to 100,000 per
order, on a
made-to-order basis. ", plus they stock 50,000+ brushes for "popular
brands".
Perhaps we should ask how much it'd cost to have thermal sensors
embedded, as has been suggested here in the past. I think more people
would use the temp sensors if they didn't have to build them.
How many people are using the embedded temp sensors and how useful are
they really?
Correlary questions:
How many types of brushes are used by EV listees?
Does each model motor from each manufacturer use a diffent brush?
--
Michael Shipway
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi guys I have just acquired an electric bus from San Francisco State
University, for the use of the Physics Dept here at the University of
Nevada, Reno. It is a 1994 22 foot shuttle bus made by Us Electricar
with two 9in ADC motors, direct drive, dual curtis mystery controllers (
the regen doesn't work???) and two 120volt strings of 6v US batts.in
parallel. Aside from some bumper rust and deteriorated batteries
( expected ) it seems that they took good care of it . My co-worker
Andrew ( the red Toyota electric Mr2's new owner) and I made some short
preliminary test runs at 10 miles or so, the curtis 900 shows down 1
third, the bus performed well, although it has a beeper that comes on at
25 mph. 6000 motor rpm. ( geared way too low? )
Our intention is to use it as a traveling "Mr. Science " show,
recruitment, EV education, demonstration and out reach program for local
schools by the Physics dept.
My question is does any one know anything about one of these as to
documentation, diagrams, specs, service history etc.
Since it won't be carrying 20 or so passengers around SF. I should
hopefully be able to get more speed / range from it. A future hybrid
system trailer is being considered for the rural schools and for
research if all goes well around town . Thanks, Bill Brinsmead
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Guys, Does any one know what is going on with E-Meters or whatever
they are called now?
I bought one a while back ,but now all I see is "out of stock" or prices
300$ and up. Are they still in production and how can we circumvent the
"profiteers" hustling what few are out there on the net?
Thanks, Bill Brinsmead
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message List came through as usual, and then the first message...
But nothing after that ? ?
Any one else have this happen to them ? ?
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 396-9189
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://slough1.home.mindspring.com/seva.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Xantrex bought the product line and company and gives a little history at
http://www.xantrex.com/products/product.asp?did=199
I see them at $259 at West Marine (includes shunt)
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=1
0001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=21484&catalogId=10001&classNum=694&
subdeptNum=118&storeNum=9
They are $195 at EV parts (shunt sold separately)
http://store.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?code=in2530
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "billb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 2:05 PM
Subject: E-meter price/availability
> Hi Guys, Does any one know what is going on with E-Meters or whatever
> they are called now?
> I bought one a while back ,but now all I see is "out of stock" or prices
> 300$ and up. Are they still in production and how can we circumvent the
> "profiteers" hustling what few are out there on the net?
> Thanks, Bill Brinsmead
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> No, I would agree with you. What it will take is to spot some surplus
> deal for a higher capacity battery that makes you say "Bingo!".
> Otherwise, the Evercells may be the most straightforward choice.
A few things you may want to be very careful with:
1) The posts on the new evercels - especially the smaller size - are not
rated for a thousand amps. Therefore, keep your battery limit knob low and
your browsers truckled lest you should vaporize the snot out of the
batteries.
2) I think Joe Smalley can define this better than I can, but with Leo's
batteries in order to get full capacity we are charging the first time to
14.7 instead of the more usual 14.2V. We are fairly certain that these
batteries require a 'comissioning charge' like many other flavors of
nickel-based batteries.
3) Don't forget, the batteries will run very hot until they break in. So do
not put the pedal to the metal until you've gotten at least five and
probably more cycles on them to get 'em to run cool
4) Until they are broken in, the batteries will show a pronounced tendancy
to get out of balance. It's probably a good idea to charge them all in
parallel A: When you get them out of the box and B: After break in - to
balance 'em all up.
5) You can not use voltage-based charge shuttling systems to balance the
evercels because their voltage varies widely during charge. I have found
that a 30 second moving average filter gives a moderately good indication of
SoC during bulk charge. Could be better, though.
6) Do NOT use the Zivan charger to charge the evercels. The results would be
painful to watch. Get a PFC-20 or something. ;-) [The PFC-20 out of the box
with very little tweaking will do a reasonable job of charging the
evercels.]
7) Rumor has it Joe Smalley has taken my 'bad' evercel (the one that lost
about two cups of electrolyte, donated to him in the name of science) and
made it get almost nameplate (80AH) and that he has discovered some "elegant
and refined" (Rich's words) charge algorythms. Joe, can you share those with
the rest of us yet? My charge algorythms are not particularly refined as of
yet, although from what Rich was mentioning it sounded like you came to the
same conclusions I did.
For those of you who are curious about what's going on down in SoCal, my
friend Leo has replaced his pack that was severely damaged by multiple
modular charger failures with a pack of the new 'made in china' Evercels
which he is currently doing the 'first balance charge' on, after which he
will install them in his car. Pre commisioning charge, he is finding the
batteries do not store their rated capacity - they also all shipped at
different SoCs, some as low as 10.88V - but I am expecting that after
commissioning charge, we will get rated cap out of them.
For another eerie thing.. Leo used one of those 'black magic' battery
testers on his old Evercels and it was able to accurately report capacity
and indicate which ones were bad, even though they aren't lead acids. So
maybe the $2000 box is worth something after all.
(For those of you not familiar with the 'black magic' battery tester, it's
the one that has two fairly thin leads and bounces some kind of signal off
the battery to determine it's health and capacity.. takes 30 seconds to do
the whole test, and is eerily accurate)
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
michael bearden wrote:
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > Correction 250v 30 amp Twist.
>
> These are the ones I used until I got tired of burning them up and replacing
> them. I am now using 50 amp Range connectors for charging.
> Michael B.
What kind of current were you trying to put through them?
The L6-30 connectors I use stay cold while the tweaked PFC20 jams nearly 29 amps into
my
156V pack. I use 50 amp Andersons on the DC side, but use multiple L6-30's for all the
AC
side...there's a male L6-30 on the power input cord on the PFC20, a female L6-30 under
the hood that the PFC20's male one mates into it, the recessed flange-mount male L6-30
in
the gas filler area, and the female L6-30 of the 240V power cord that has a male NEMA
14-50 plug where it gets wall power. All of these L6-30 connectors stay cold when used
with 10 gauge wire and 23 amps is flowing through them, but that's because 23 amps is
well
under their constant 30 amp rating. These are very high quality connectors that will
not
burn up if they aren't abused with currents in excess of their ratings.
Credit to Smalley and Rudman for designing, building, and offering such a great charger
that makes BIG charging amps from a minimal amount of juice from the wall socket!
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks, Does anyone know how or where one can buy surplus aircraft
nicads, marathon, eagle pitcher, saft etc.they come 20cells in a
stainless steel box, about 30 AH.
The military and commercial sources are completely devoid of any mention
of surplus sales.
I know they are commonly refurbished, but nothing is totally "closed
loop" so you can bet there is a "LOT" of them going somewhere. Can a
recycle program be identified and tapped into?
Any assistance greatly appreciated. Bill Brinsmead
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob
I to was impressed with vehicle performance ( I'm sure he has mastered the
art of EV driving ) . At one time I had my Porsche set up on two strings of
120v then (when t-rex came) I went to 240 v I noticed that 120v 60mphs =
160/180 amps but 240v 60 mph was 65/80 .The higher voltage helped more that
I would have though as everything else was the same. no 6 also is high on my
list
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 7:13 AM
Subject: Efficiency Comparison: CivicWithACord vs. VoltsRabbit #2
> Descriptions:
> Vehicle #1: 144V system, 8VUSGC (160 Ah reg. model),
> DCP Raptor 600A controller, 8" ADC motor, 92 Honda
> Civic hatchback body, and driver commuting 44
> miles/trip. 3302 lbs. (back-of-the-napkin WAG)
>
> Vehicle #2: 128V sytem, 8VUSGC (178 Ah high cap.
> model) , 500A Curtis controller, 9" ADC motor, 81
> Rabbit body, and driver commuting 5 mi./trip. 3001
> lbs.
>
> Symptoms:
> Driver of vehicle #1 pulls 320A max from his
> controller, or at voltage, roughly 46kW.
> Driver of vehicle #2 pulls 460A max from his
> controller, or at voltage (not counting sag), or 61kW.
>
> Driver of vehicle #2 jealous of vehicle #1 range,
> (even though extra range not needed) and as typical
> wannabe engineer (if it works, fix it better) wants to
> know why. Listers, which do you think is the main
> cause? Which is the least likely?
>
> 1) Higher operating voltage means less current draw &
> better efficiency.
> 2) Vehicle #1 driver stretching range on a daily
> basis, so batts. more used to cycling harder, which
> inc. range.
> 3) DCP Raptor a more efficient controller than
> Curtis.
> 4) High capacity model battery providing less volume
> for sulfuric acid circulation due to more active
> material on the plates.
> 5) Civic a much more aerodynamic body shape than
> Rabbit (though with 2 more batts. and a bit more body
> weight in general, that might be a draw)?
> 6) Other overlooked: tires & rolling resistance,
> tranny needs repair, etc.
> 7) A combination of the above/which?
>
> Appreciatively,
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As winter arrived almost literally overnight, I got the needed
inspiration today and tested out my heater at 176 volts and it works
fine. When first turned on, the current briefly climbs up to about 20
amps, but then quickly settles back down to 12 amps, for about 2100
watts.
It was rather nice to sit there and literally watch the thermometer
rise... in about 10 minutes went from 25 to 55 degrees F. By then the
current had dropped a little more (11.6 amps) and I got the impression
the thermometer wasn't raising as quickly, but boredom was also setting
in as I was just sitting in the driveway. Thanks for the encouragement.
Now to keep the batteries warm enough to get usable range out of them...
George Tylinski wrote:
> I tested some ceramics from a space heater on my 240VAC dryer outlet
> with no apparent problem (Your mileage may vary).
Lee Hart wrote:
> The answer is, of course, "who knows"? :-) They weren't designed or
> tested for it. If you don't mind sacrificing one to the ghodz, then
> try it. Keep a fire extinguisher handy, just in case.
> Jim Coate wrote:
> > it's time I get my heater hooked back up. How far can the voltage be
> > pushed? It was run on 120v pack before. Now I have a 176 volt pack.
> > Can I push the heater that far? Will it self-limit, or go up in smoke?
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This link came up when I did a quick search today for NiMH batteries.
http://www.73.com/a/0009.shtml
Look about 1/2 way down to find the ad
JUMBO 34AH/1.25V NICAD BATTERIES
Rated 34 ampere hours/1.25VDC. Sintered plated nickel-cadmium. Manufactured
by Marathon. Good for 40 years if properly maintained. 3-1/16" W x 1-3/8" D
x 9-1/4"H. These are used but in excellent condition. Deep cycle battery.
Great for solar power, telephone standby, electric cars, marine, emergency
standby. Large quantity available. $14.50 Ea/10, $12.50 Ea/50. 1 in stock.
MB908
-----Original Message-----
From: billb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: November 28, 2002 16:09
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Surplus aircraft nicads
Hi Folks, Does anyone know how or where one can buy surplus aircraft
nicads, marathon, eagle pitcher, saft etc.they come 20cells in a
stainless steel box, about 30 AH.
The military and commercial sources are completely devoid of any mention
of surplus sales.
I know they are commonly refurbished, but nothing is totally "closed
loop" so you can bet there is a "LOT" of them going somewhere. Can a
recycle program be identified and tapped into?
Any assistance greatly appreciated. Bill Brinsmead
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--- Begin Message ---
8) Driving style?
In looks like #1 has a very slight edge in terms of theoretical pack
capacity (maybe 1%), while #2 has a slight edge on battery to vehicle
weight ratio (37% vs 35%). So these would tend to cancel out and the
packs are essentially equal.
However, if #2 drives around pulling 61 kW peaks vs #1 only reaching 41
kW peaks, that style of driving will quickly eat up range. I'm actually
impressed that you can get 460 amps out of the pack other than maybe
fresh off charge. If I'm only going 5 miles, my (lead) foot knows it and
I can easily use twice the energy per mile as when I'm driving for
distance.
If #2 really takes that much more power to drive with the same attitude
as #1, then something is different either mechanically or electrically.
With two different cars on different routes it is hard to compare how
the drivers like to drive. Someone else recently mentioned that his
range has gone up after switching from flooded's to AGMs, directly due
to his lead foot driving habits.
So none of the above. Or actually all of the above plus one more.
Bob Bath wrote:
> Descriptions:
> Vehicle #1: 144V system, 8VUSGC (160 Ah reg. model),
> DCP Raptor 600A controller, 8" ADC motor, 92 Honda
> Civic hatchback body, and driver commuting 44
> miles/trip. 3302 lbs. (back-of-the-napkin WAG)
>
> Vehicle #2: 128V sytem, 8VUSGC (178 Ah high cap.
> model) , 500A Curtis controller, 9" ADC motor, 81
> Rabbit body, and driver commuting 5 mi./trip. 3001
> lbs.
>
> Symptoms:
> Driver of vehicle #1 pulls 320A max from his
> controller, or at voltage, roughly 46kW.
> Driver of vehicle #2 pulls 460A max from his
> controller, or at voltage (not counting sag), or 61kW.
>
> Driver of vehicle #2 jealous of vehicle #1 range,
> (even though extra range not needed) and as typical
> wannabe engineer (if it works, fix it better) wants to
> know why. Listers, which do you think is the main
> cause? Which is the least likely?
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe I missed this, but I assume that vehicle #2 has a range greater
than 5 miles, it just isn't stated?
As far as the other comments:
1: Quite possible, but is the efficiency in the batteries, the lower
current, different controller, or the combination.
2: I think it is fair to say that the 44 miles is more taxing than the 5
miles and will result in a different pack life, all other things being equal
3: I don't know
4: I don't know
5: Only likely to help at higher speed. The (suspected) lower vehicle
mass of the rabbit can help with the tire losses
6: See above
7: I am a fan of more voltage and less current and lighter vehicles with
higher tire pressures. AlsoThe generally more lightly built components
on the Honda can perhaps extend range a bit, or help offset the higher
weight. With 61kW peak, the rabbit should outperform the honda, and the
higher current probably has something to do with a 9" versus 8" motor.
Do you have range data for both setups on the same course?
Seth
Bob Bath wrote:
>
> Descriptions:
> Vehicle #1: 144V system, 8VUSGC (160 Ah reg. model),
> DCP Raptor 600A controller, 8" ADC motor, 92 Honda
> Civic hatchback body, and driver commuting 44
> miles/trip. 3302 lbs. (back-of-the-napkin WAG)
>
> Vehicle #2: 128V sytem, 8VUSGC (178 Ah high cap.
> model) , 500A Curtis controller, 9" ADC motor, 81
> Rabbit body, and driver commuting 5 mi./trip. 3001
> lbs.
>
> Symptoms:
> Driver of vehicle #1 pulls 320A max from his
> controller, or at voltage, roughly 46kW.
> Driver of vehicle #2 pulls 460A max from his
> controller, or at voltage (not counting sag), or 61kW.
>
> Driver of vehicle #2 jealous of vehicle #1 range,
> (even though extra range not needed) and as typical
> wannabe engineer (if it works, fix it better) wants to
> know why. Listers, which do you think is the main
> cause? Which is the least likely?
>
> 1) Higher operating voltage means less current draw &
> better efficiency.
> 2) Vehicle #1 driver stretching range on a daily
> basis, so batts. more used to cycling harder, which
> inc. range.
> 3) DCP Raptor a more efficient controller than
> Curtis.
> 4) High capacity model battery providing less volume
> for sulfuric acid circulation due to more active
> material on the plates.
> 5) Civic a much more aerodynamic body shape than
> Rabbit (though with 2 more batts. and a bit more body
> weight in general, that might be a draw)?
> 6) Other overlooked: tires & rolling resistance,
> tranny needs repair, etc.
> 7) A combination of the above/which?
>
> Appreciatively,
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doh! I should've mentioned that during winter,
VoltsRabbit will do 20-25 mi. comfortably, maybe 32
during spring/summer. And the 44 mi. in winter on the
Civic includes battery heating blankets-- a serious
omission.
CivicWithACord is in CO; VoltsRabbit #2 in OR,
hence direct comparisons are not possible. Hence I
toss theorizing instead of controlled experimentation.
(Sorry Joe & Seth!)
>
> Bob Bath wrote:
> >
> > Descriptions:
> > Vehicle #1: 144V system, 8VUSGC (160 Ah reg.
> model),
> > DCP Raptor 600A controller, 8" ADC motor, 92 Honda
> > Civic hatchback body, and driver commuting 44
> > miles/trip. 3302 lbs. (back-of-the-napkin WAG)
> >
> > Vehicle #2: 128V sytem, 8VUSGC (178 Ah high cap.
> > model) , 500A Curtis controller, 9" ADC motor, 81
> > Rabbit body, and driver commuting 5 mi./trip.
> 3001
> > lbs.
> >
> > Symptoms:
> > Driver of vehicle #1 pulls 320A max from his
> > controller, or at voltage, roughly 46kW.
> > Driver of vehicle #2 pulls 460A max from his
> > controller, or at voltage (not counting sag), or
> 61kW.
> >
> > Driver of vehicle #2 jealous of vehicle #1 range,
> > (even though extra range not needed) and as
> typical
> > wannabe engineer (if it works, fix it better)
> wants to
> > know why. Listers, which do you think is the main
> > cause? Which is the least likely?
> >
> > 1) Higher operating voltage means less current
> draw &
> > better efficiency.
> > 2) Vehicle #1 driver stretching range on a daily
> > basis, so batts. more used to cycling harder,
> which
> > inc. range.
> > 3) DCP Raptor a more efficient controller than
> > Curtis.
> > 4) High capacity model battery providing less
> volume
> > for sulfuric acid circulation due to more active
> > material on the plates.
> > 5) Civic a much more aerodynamic body shape than
> > Rabbit (though with 2 more batts. and a bit more
> body
> > weight in general, that might be a draw)?
> > 6) Other overlooked: tires & rolling resistance,
> > tranny needs repair, etc.
> > 7) A combination of the above/which?
> >
> > Appreciatively,
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
> --
> vze3v25q@verizondotnet
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 28 Nov 2002 at 20:43, Harris, Lawrence wrote:
> Large quantity available. 1 in stock.
Eh? What do you suppose this means?
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
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--- Begin Message ---
At 03:54 PM 11/28/2002 -0800, Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
1) The posts on the new evercels - especially the smaller size - are not
rated for a thousand amps. Therefore, keep your battery limit knob low and
your browsers truckled lest you should vaporize the snot out of the
batteries.
I generally cruise at around 65A, hit 150A uphill, with very brief
excursions up to 200A. I've only gone up to 250A, or 300A once, on
purpose, testing acceleration.
3) Don't forget, the batteries will run very hot until they break in. So do
not put the pedal to the metal until you've gotten at least five and
probably more cycles on them to get 'em to run cool
Sounds like it might be a good idea to just setup an automated break-in
cycler kinda like Joe Smalleys.
5) You can not use voltage-based charge shuttling systems to balance the
evercels because their voltage varies widely during charge. I have found
that a 30 second moving average filter gives a moderately good indication of
SoC during bulk charge. Could be better, though.
So the MKII"s may not be appropriate?
6) Do NOT use the Zivan charger to charge the evercels. The results would be
painful to watch. Get a PFC-20 or something. ;-) [The PFC-20 out of the box
with very little tweaking will do a reasonable job of charging the
evercels.]
Already in negotiation with Rich.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:34 PM 11/28/2002 -0500, Jim Coate wrote:
Now to keep the batteries warm enough to get usable range out of them...
I put several runs of the heater wire that was mentioned on this list in
the bottom of my battery boxes. It seems to keep the batteries in the
mid-60's. You may want to try some. I do have a bunch extra I'd be
willing to sell.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
