EV Digest 2446
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Responding to EV Naysayers
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) De-Ox, was : Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EVLN(JOBS: Hybrid Manager, Sales)-long
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Responding to EV Naysayers
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EVLN(Interfaith group crusades hybrid 'pollution-lite')
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EVLN(4 electric car manufacturers @ Seoul Motor Show)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Responding to EV Naysayers
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Question about ammeter with regen
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Silent Running was(Re: Responding to EV Naysayers)
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Renault LeCar parts
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Silent Running was(Re: Responding to EV Naysayers)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I think we have a little misunderstanding here that is not worth a fight.
1. The first point I was making was that contamination on the wire prevented
it from making a good connection as well as prevented it from tinning
properly. Once the wire was cleaned enough to tin properly, the heat problem
was gone.
2. The second point I was making was that the wire was at fault, not the
connector.
3. Nowhere did I recommend tinning stranded wire before insertion into a
pressure clamp fitting. As Sharkey stated, the connection tends to loosen as
the connection thermal cycles. It works for a while but can loosen over
time.
I have used de-ox on marine systems and a year later it was obvious which
connections were not properly and entirely treated. I recommend it anywhere
wet or damp.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
> Stowe it some place that counts.
> Tinning actually is a good idea. I fully understand your concerns and
angles.
> It really stiffens up clamp connections and helps in heat dissipation.
> I tin every thing I can. I have not lost a connection yet.
>
> I have done 80 amps pulls, and 50 amp NON PFC charger pulls with 150 amp
peaks.
> Tinned screw lug termination's are the only thing the survives this type
of
> abuse.
>
> Please don't use "NOT EVER". Most of us have done EVERY thing wrong and
know
> exactly how it fails and What is a Danger and what Isn't.
> When Joe recommends this , it's because it works for us, and very well I
might
> add.
>
> In fact the only connections that have failed on PFC20s is a quality crimp
done
> with a $100 crimper and Spec lugs. Tinning solved this issue.
> Did I make myself Clear enough?????
>
>
>
> Sharkey wrote:
>
> > >Have you tried tinning the wire before inserting it into the clamp.
> >
> > Absolutely, positively, DO NOT EVER apply solder to stranded wire that
will
> > be inserted into a pressure clamp type connector!!!!
> >
> > Solder is a very malleable metal, and while it may seem that it causes
the
> > pressure connector to be more secure in the beginning, the lead in the
> > solder will "relax", resulting in a connection that degrades through
time
> > and allows the wire to become loose under the clamp.
> >
> > If you feel the need to tin the very ~ends~ of the wire for the purpose
of
> > containing the loose strands, this can be done but *only* if the tined
end
> > of the wire is not subjected to any pressure from the connector, which
> > again, results in an unreliable connection.
> >
> > Applying a resistance lowering and corrosion proofing compound such as
"No
> > Al Ox" would be advisable. This will lessen the connection's electrical
> > resistance, exclude moisture, and prevent oxidation of the copper and
brass
> > components.
> >
> > In the end, if you are heating up your connector, either as a result of
> > drawing high continuous charging currents, or because of the effects of
> > power factor, your ~only~ proper response should be to step up to a
> > connector that can handle the current without heating, or else turn the
> > current down to an approved level.
> >
> > Using connectors (such as a dryer plug) with exposed live conductors is
> > asking for trouble *and* likely to give EV charging another black eye in
> > the public's perception. Clean up your act or go back to ICE.
> >
> > High current twist-lock connectors are used extensively in the RV
industry.
> > Check out your local RV supply store for suitable, water resistant plugs
> > and receptacles with water proof, screw on travel caps.
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The facts are the best way to respond. I say stuff like:
1) Power plants pollute much less than cars. They monitor them 24-7. They
don't just check them once every two years.
2) You can quickly and easily change a power plant to pollute less, but you
can't easily change millions of cars to pollute less.
3) You can get electricity from lots of sources, but cars must use gasoline
(or diesel). You can run an EV on hydro-power, nuclear energy, wind power,
solar power, coal, geothermal power, tidal power, or even cow manure, but
you can't use any of these to run an ICE car.
4) $0.03 per mile in electricity. EVs use energy much more efficiently than
ICEs. Thus, no matter what powers them, they use about 1/2 as much as an
ICE. This means less pollution no matter what else you do.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sharkey wrote:
>> Absolutely, positively, DO NOT EVER apply solder to stranded wire
>> that will be inserted into a pressure clamp type connector!!!!
>> ...
>> Applying a resistance lowering and corrosion proofing compound such
>> as "No Al Ox" would be advisable.
>> ...
>> Using connectors (such as a dryer plug) with exposed live conductors
>> is asking for trouble *and* likely to give EV charging another black
>> eye in the public's perception.
Prompting Rich Rudman to reply:
> Stow it some place that counts. Tinning actually is a good idea. I
> fully understand your concerns and angles. It really stiffens up
> clamp connections and helps in heat dissipation.
>
> Please don't use "NOT EVER". Most of us have done EVERY thing wrong
> and know exactly how it fails and What is a Danger and what Isn't.
I think that both of you are right, but your exaggerated stances make
them appear contradictory.
Bare copper corrodes quickly. Strip a new wire, and it is nice and
clean. But it immediately starts to corrode, and after a while it
develops quite a thick oxide coating (look at an old penny). The oxide
coating causes poor high-resistance electrical connections.
Solid copper wire is moderately strong. When you wrap it around a screw
and tighten it, the friction rubs off the oxide coating (if it isn't too
thick). The high pressure also deforms the copper slightly, forming a
gas-tight connection that tends to keep air out (thus prevent
corrosion). If you take apart an old screw connection, the copper wire
under it should still be bright and shiny (if the screw was tight
enough). So you can put bare solid copper wire on high pressure contacts
(screw terminals, crimp terminals, etc.)
Stranded copper wire is much weaker. When you tighten it under a screw,
the strands slip around so you don't get nearly as high a pressure. You
don't tend to get the deformation that keeps air out of the connection,
so it corrodes faster over time. The tiny spaces between strands also
let air in, increasing corrosion. Notice that when you strip old
stranded wire, you often see that it is not shiny any more; air seeped
in the cut ends to corrode it for a considerable length. The end result
is that stranded wire connections generally have higher resistance and
are not as reliable as solid wire.
But we need to use stranded wire for many applications, for flexibility.
So techniques have been devised to make reliable connections with
stranded wire.
First, you can "tin" the wire. This just means coating it with something
that doesn't corrode as easily. Tin, lead, tin-lead alloys (solder),
silver, and gold are the most common coatings. For cost reasons, the
coating is as thin as possible (especially with silver or gold)!
To "tin" a wire yourself, coat it with solder. Don't use so much solder
that it significantly increases the size of the wire; you want it 99%
copper, not 50% copper and 50% solder. This can be done by coating it
with solder, and then banging it on a hard surface while it is still hot
to shake off the excess solder. Excess solder is bad because it can melt
and run out if the connection ever gets hot. Now the connection is loose
and you *really* have a bad connection!
Second, you can restrict yourself to connectors specifically designed
for stranded wire. One type is the crimp terminal, which traps the
strands in a closed box or tube so none of them can shift or escape. The
terminal is then crimped to reduce its diameter and apply tremendous
force to the wires. Done right, the pressure cold-welds the strands
together so there is no air space at all between them, and they
effectively become the same as solid wire.
Another type is the screw-and-box connector. The stranded wire is poked
into a closed box or hole, and a screw is tightened to press the strands
tightly together. The ones for solid wire have the screw press directly
on the wire. The ones for stranded wire have some kind of plate or metal
piece in between the screw and wire. Its purpose is to keep the screw
from breaking the individual strands that it tightens against.
A good, properly designed screw-and-box connector will have thick,
strong walls, and a strong screw with lots of threads in the box. Cheap
ones will be bent sheet metal with weak threads (typical of hardware
store plugs). The latter can't develop enough pressure to make a good
connection.
Another solution is to add some sort of grease (No-Al-Ox, vaseline,
etc.) to keep air out of the connection. If the wire is clean to begin
with, this can keep it from getting worse. But don't expect miracles.
There are lots of "magic" contact lubricants, with wild claims about
reducing resistance etc. They cost a fortune and only work imperceptibly
better than axle grease.
And of course, you can solder the darned thing. You have to make a solid
mechanical joint first, and THEN solder it. Electricians avoid solder
for good reason; it is hard to do right, hard to inspect, and if it
fails, it can lead to some really nasty results.
The bottom line is that your L6-30 is probably failing because you're
using bare copper stranded wire, and the box connection is flimsy and
can't provide enough pressure to maintain a good connection.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can someone recommend a place to buy de-ox?
TIA
Seth
quoted text below-
<snip>
>
> I have used de-ox on marine systems and a year later it was obvious which
> connections were not properly and entirely treated. I recommend it anywhere
> wet or damp.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<snip>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(JOBS: Hybrid Manager, Sales)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
US-MI-Farmington Hills-Hybrid Vehicle Batteries - Quality
Control & Service Manager
Title: Quality Control & Service Manager: Hybrid Vehicle Batteries
Salary: 70,000
Location: Farmington Hills, Michigan, a suburb of Detroit
Required Skills & Experiences
1) Quality control experience in automotive industry for at
least 5 years.
2) Customer service experience in automotive industry for at
least 5 years.
3) Electrical circuit, software, and mechanical engineering
experience is of great advantage to fulfill this
function.
Job Description
1) Negotiations with customers (ex. Ford customer service
division), Supplier and other companies for quality and
service related issues.
2) Management level reporting and document creation for
quality issues and policies, as the US-based, local arm
of Japan?s quality assurance department.
3) Management of incoming inspection for prototypes
delivered to Detroit Tech Center.
4) Management of failure analysis and troubleshooting
activities for the AP and CP level prototypes.
5) Management of supporting activities during the CP Builds,
i.e., at integration of its HV batteries to the CP
vehicles.
6) Generation and reporting of quality & customer service
statistics, and their analysis.
7) Establshing the hotline team to deal with customer?s
hotline team.
8) 8D report initiation.
9) Management of service parts stock.
The Quality Control & Service Manager shall report to
General Manager and Engineering Manager of Detroit Technical
Center, as well as to Quality Assurance Manager in Japan.
Daily and localized issues shall be reported to the local
management only, while the issues related to product quality
and product designing, impacting company's product and
business strategy must be reported parallel to Japan?s
Quality Assurance Manager.
Additional Information
Salary: USD 70,000.00 to USD 70,000.00 per year
Position Type: Full Time, Part Time, Employee
Ref Code: Hybrid
Contact Information
Regina
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Executive Resource Group Inc.
205 W. Main Street
Barrington IL
===
US-NJ-Sewell-Telesales Representative
Tele-Sales Representative
The Ultra Light Vehicle Division of Electric Mobility
Corporation, home of the world famous Rascal Scooter has an
extraordinary opportunity for an energetic, highly motivated
individual to tele-sell this revolutionary new product. This
exciting new division will sell, distribute and support an
entire product line of Ultra Light weight folding electric
scooters and power chairs, employing a disruptive technology
that utilizes high strength lightweight material.
The entire Fold & Go Product Line will define the Personal
Electric Vehicle Industry now, and in the future. This is a
rare chance to enter at the ground level of a business
opportunity to develop and grow with. The potential for
unlimited success will be realized by your ability to
provide enthusiasm and energy, as well as the leadership for
those who will follow your foundation of 100% responsibility
and superior service to our customers.
The Tele-Sales Representative originates factory direct
sales of new and refurbished scooters and powerchairs.
Essential Duties and Responsibilities:
-Maintain a positive attitude toward your job, co-workers,
and the company.
-Ability to adhere to scripting.
-Ability to overcome objections by adhering to scripted
rebuttals.
-Capturing prospect profile, entering text, and
dispositioning leads properly to gain a better
understanding of their needs and lead status.
-Maintain a minimum of 30 contacts (full presentations) daily.
-Sell our products to prospects in areas where we have no
"in-home" representative.
-Maintain a minimum for 6 sales per week with an average
selling price of $2,800 (totaling $17,000 per week).
-Process "Quick Check" credit applications.
-Prior to leaving for the day, clear all messages (voice and
data), returning calls, etc.
-Assist with showroom demonstrations/sales.
-Assist with warehouse sales based at Headquarters.
-Complete appropriate Medicare/Insurance forms and
forwarding to the customers.
-Ability to be a true "team" player to accomplish the
department goals.
Qualifications:
-Data Entry
-Ability to close sales
-Six-day work week (when required)
-Ability to work in a fast paced environment
-Ability to maintain a positive attitude while dealing with
pressure and rejection
Experience:
-Knowledge of general office procedures
-Effective communicator, both written and verbal
-Knowledge of general computer skills
Other Demands:
-Performs other duties as assigned.
Please contact us via fax at 856-468-2832 or via email at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] to be considered for this
exciting opportunity
Additional Information
Base plus Commissions
Position Type: Full Time, Employee
Ref Code: TSR1115
Contact Information
Michael Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Mobility Corp.
One Mobility Plaza P.O. Box 156
Sewell NJ 08080
Fax: 856-468-2832
===
US-NJ-Sewell-Telesales Supervisor
Tele-Sales Supervisor
The Ultra Light Vehicle Division of Electric Mobility
Corporation, home of the world famous Rascal Scooter has an
extraordinary opportunity for an energetic, highly motivated
individual to supervise sales representatives and to sell
this revolutionary new product. This exciting new division
will sell, distribute and support an entire product line of
Ultra Light weight folding electric scooters and power
chairs, employing a disruptive technology that utilizes high
strength lightweight material.
The entire Fold & Go Product Line will define the Personal
Electric Vehicle Industry now, and in the future.
This is a rare chance to enter at the ground level of a
business opportunity to develop and grow with. The potential
for unlimited success will be realized by your ability to
provide enthusiasm and energy, as well as the leadership for
those who will follow your foundation of 100% responsibility
and superior service to our customers.
The Tele-Sales Manager's major responsibility is to meet
sales goals by overseeing the process by which the Ultra
Lite Division sells it's products and services directly to
our customers. There are several methods to achieve this
goal including: receiving phone calls from customers
responding to marketing/advertising events; hand offs from
other sales functions; outbound calls to identified agencies
and institutions and outbound calls directly to customers.
Essential Duties and Responsibilities:
-Maintain a positive attitude towards your job, co-workers,
and company.
-Provides Training: Product, Computer, and Scripts
-Ensure all employees are adhering to scripts with
enthusiasm, maintaining established call volume and
maintaining established revenue goals per week.
-Manage predictive dialer program.
-Analyze reports.
-Work closely with Marketing and IS Departments to ensure
appropriate leads are available for predictive/managed
dialer distribution.
-Assist TSRs with closing sales ("Take Over" calls).
-Conduct daily/weekly meetings.
-Assist with hiring and terminating.
-Communicate daily with Ultra Lite Division Sales Director.
-Update Tele-Sales job descriptions as required.
-Assist in updating and maintain training manual.
-Monitor and tape calls for training purposes.
-Conduct annual employee evaluations.
-Help instill positive attitudes.
Qualifications:
-Business degree or extensive experience
-PC skills
-Superior interpersonal skills
Experience:
-Direct Sales experience
-Sales Management experience
Other Demands:
-Must have flexible work schedule.
Please contact us by fax at 856-468-2832 or email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] to learn more about this
exciting opportunity
Additional Information
Salary: USD 30,000.00 to USD 35,000.00 per year
Base plus two-tiered commissions
Position Type: Full Time, Employee
Ref Code: TSS1115
Contact Information
Michael Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Mobility Corp.
One Mobility Plaza P.O. Box 156
Sewell NJ 08080
Fax: 865-468-2832
===
US-NJ-Sewell-Account Service Representative
Account Service Representative
The Ultra Light Vehicle Division of Electric Mobility
Corporation, home of the world famous Rascal Scooter has an
extraordinary opportunity for an energetic, highly motivated
individual to market this revolutionary new product. This
exciting new division will sell, distribute and support an
entire product line of Ultra Light weight folding electric
scooters and power chairs, employing a disruptive technology
that utilizes high strength lightweight material.
The entire Fold & Go Product Line will define the Personal
Electric Vehicle Industry now, and in the future. This is a
rare chance to enter at the ground level of a business
opportunity to develop and grow with. The potential for
unlimited success will be realized by your ability to
provide enthusiasm and energy, as well as the leadership for
those who will follow your foundation of 100% responsibility
and superior service to our customers.
The Account Service Representative is responsible to assist
in scheduling each Mobility Consultant four (4) demo
appointments a day to satisfy our prospects' needs.
Essential Duties and Responsibilities:
-Maintain a positive attitude towards your job, co-workers,
and company.
-Contact prospects by telephone, following the script
verbatim to book the demos with emphasis on capturing
accurate profile information while building rapport with
prospect.
-Scheduling 4 demos per day for each independent Mobility
Consultant with an emphasis on quality not quantity.
-Channeling leads, keeping in mind what is in the best
interest for the prospect.
-Maintain top three levels of the compensation program.
-Maintain average sales to demos of 35% or higher
-Data Entry of prospect inquiries
-Territory Management - Scheduling demos considering
location, time, and availability.
-Updating database on the disposition of each lead.
-Work with the predictive dialing system.
Qualifications:
-Professional phone etiquette
-Clear, well-spoken voice
-Ability to overcome objections
-Basic computer skills
-Data entry skills
-Good reading and communication skills
-Ability to work independently
Experience:
-Previous telemarketing/sales experience is appreciated, but
not necessary
Other Demands:
-Work overtime and Saturday as needed
Please contact us via fax at 856-468-2832 or via email at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] to be considered for this
exciting opportunity
Additional Information
Base Salary plus Commission
Position Type: Full Time, Employee
Ref Code: ASR1115
Contact Information
Michael Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Mobility Corp.
One Mobility Plaza P.O. Box 156
Sewell NJ 08080
Fax: 856-468-2832
-
=====
' ____
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
on 12/1/02 2:25 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
>
> Anyone know of a source of anti-EV mythbusting info? I'm looking for a
> point-by-point refutation of the most common anti-EV myths that we all know
> so well.
Hi Marvin,
I wrote a paper awhile back called "Debunking the Myths of EVs and
Smokestacks" to address the very point of the power plant myth.
You can download the paper at http://www.evadc.org/pwrplnt.pdf
A fellow at Princeton also put up an HTML version which can be seen at
http://www.princeton.edu/~bcjones/transportation/ev/myths.html
Hope this helps.
*************************************************
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
144 Volt Ford Escort
GE Elec-Trak E10
Check out the cool electric scooters we have at
SkooterCommuter
http://www.skootercommuter.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Interfaith group crusades hybrid 'pollution-lite')
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.dominionpost.com/a/news/2002/11/09/as/
This article appeared in the Dominion Post Newspaper on
November 9, 2002.
Interfaith group crusades against global warming
GUEST COMMENTARY
BY BETTY RIVARD AND SISTER MARY REHMANN, CHM
The basic theory of global warming is that average global
temperatures are rising slowly and will continue to rise
because of increased combustion of coal, oil, and other
fuels. Based on a September 2002 Harris Poll of 1,011
adults, 85 percent say they have seen, heard or read about
the theory of global warming. The poll also found that "The
great majority (74 percent) of those who have seen, heard or
read about global warming say that they believe in the
theory that increased carbon dioxide and other gases will
lead to global warming and an increase in average
temperatures."
Emissions from fuel used for transportation are significant
contributors to global warming. Through our decisions about
transportation for ourselves and our families, and the
decisions of our communities about what public
transportation is provided, we directly impact the rate of
global warming. For example, by simply maintaining our own
cars by keeping tires inflated, changing oil, avoiding
repeated stops and starts, we can maximize its fuel
efficiency. We can also carpool, take public transportation,
walk or ride a bike to reduce the amount of gasoline we
burn.
When we buy a car, we can also choose one that is highly
fuel efficient. According to the Union of Concerned
Scientists, "Your choice of vehicle is probably your single
most important environmental decision: For every single
gallon of gasoline burned, 20 pounds of carbon dioxide go
into the atmosphere."
One of the current options in selecting a fuel efficient
vehicle is the purchase of a hybrid electric car. Hybrids
combine a small combustion engine with an electric battery.
The Union of Concerned Scientists states: "With good design,
hybrids can reduce smog pollution by 90 percent or more
compared with the cleanest conventional vehicles on the road
today." Models on the market include the two-seat Honda
Insight and five-seat Honda Civic Hybrid and Toyota Prius
sedans. Among the 2003 models, the Insight has a 64 mpg
combined city and highway driving average and the sedans
check in at 48 mpg. Although the initial prices may be
somewhat higher than standard models, the savings in fuel
are substantial and the contribution to global warming is
far less.
On Sunday morning, people in the area will have an
opportunity to see and learn about hybrid cars. Local
members of the West Virginia Interfaith Global Climate
Change Campaign are sponsoring demonstrations of hybrid
vehicles at St. Paul's Lutheran and First Presbyterian
churches between 9:30 and 12:30. Similar events will take
place in Charleston, Shepherdstown and Webster Springs in
West Virginia, and hundreds of locations throughout the
country. They are part of a national movement among people
of faith to establish automobile fuel economy as a moral
imperative for global sustainability, security, and justice.
The events inaugurate a two-year effort to promote
legislation requiring higher CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel
Economy) standards and to influence manufacturers to build
cars that slow down the pace of global warming. As stewards
of God's creation, we call upon all caring people to join us
in this mission.
BETTY RIVARD is coordinator of the North Central Region of
WVIGCC. Sister Mary Rehmann is a member . This commentary
should be considered another point of view and not
necessarily the opinion or editorial policy of The Dominion
Post.
-
=====
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. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(4 electric car manufacturers @ Seoul Motor Show)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2002/11/16/200211160018.asp
Seoul Motor Show to open Nov. 21
With the 2002 Seoul Motor Show just around the corner, local
and expatriate car lovers and motorists are bubbling over
with growing excitement. The biennial international auto
exhibition, inaugurated in 1995, is scheduled to kick off
Nov. 21 at COEX in southern Seoul for a nine-day run under
the theme of "Meet Another Dream on Wheels."
This year's motor show is drawing particular interest, as
the largest-ever number of concept cars, totaling 11
vehicles, will be on display, together with a similar number
of exhibition show cars.
According to organizers at the Korea Automobile
Manufacturers Association, a total of 192 automakers,
auto-parts makers and car accessory producers from 11
countries will participate in the Seoul Motor Show, while an
estimated 800,000 spectators and 5,000 foreign buyers are
expected to visit.
The participants will include 19 automakers - seven
passenger-car producers, eight commercial vehicle makers and
four electric car manufacturers.
Notably, Toyota Motor will present an environment-friendly
hybrid car, dubbed Estima, and an F1 racecar, while another
Japanese automaker Proto will showcase its Spirra sports
car.
[...]
In particular, the automaker is to unveil its latest Lacetti
compact to the public for the first time at the exhibition.
Ssangyong Motor is to showcase eight special cars, mostly
SUVs, while Renault Samsung Motors will display 10 models,
including the first Renault car built 100 years ago and a F1
racecar. Interesting presentations from foreign firms
include the KAZ (Keio Advanced Zero-Emission Vehicle), a
concept developed by JST-CREST in conjunction with Keio
University in Japan. This innovative 8-wheeler electric
vehicle was designed from the ground up to be a high
performance, featuring a series of the exciting
characteristics - top speed of 311 km, acceleration to 400
meter in 15.3 seconds and range of 300km per charge.
Starting with the press day for the media and buyers Nov.
20, the Seoul Motor Show will open its magnificent
appearance and cutting-edge technologies to the public from
Thursday. The admission fees for adults and students are set
at 6,000 won and 4,000 won, respectively.
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
By Yoo Cheong-mo Staff reporter 2002.11.16
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
. I think Dabney Coleman put it best when he said, "The more
> intelligent you are, the less TV you watch".
>
Hi Marvin, and vise-versa on the TV watching. One thing feeds the other.
> Anyone know of a source of anti-EV mythbusting info? I'm looking for a
> point-by-point refutation of the most common anti-EV myths that we all
know
> so well.
I can't find it. It is lost on my old hard drive, which is not cooperating
in any way. I read an articel a couple years ago or less about the subject.
As close as I can recall, the title goes something like; Tailpipe to
Smokestacks, Debunking the EV Myth.
I did a search for it on EV World, but came up with nothing. I tired links
to Web sites like Greencar.org, Electrifyingtimes magazine, got dead ended.
Try doing a thorough search, assuming you have more time than what I have.
Reply back to my mail address directly if you don't find it and I'll dig a
little for you when I have some time late next week.
Regards,
Rick
>
> I'd like to print multiple copies to hand out in response to the naysayers
> blather, so I don't have to waste more of MY time explaining things they
> won't understand anyway.
>
> Thanks!
>
> J. Marvin Campbell
> Culver City, CA
> 1992 Soleq EVcort
> 2002 RAV4 EV
>
> The oil companies may run our government, but we don't have to buy their
> product.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EVlist - Electric Vehicle Discussion List <>
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
> David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
>
> > These same cells are $10 each ($8.25 in lots of 100) on this page:
> > http://www.users.voicenet.com/~sgphoto/nicad_batteries.htm
> > IIRC, these don't have any advantage over lead batteries in the
> > specific energy department (they're not intended for EVs, so low mass
> > wasn't designed into them). But they should last longer, and won't
> > be as much affected by cold as lead.
>
> John, is there any chance these 9.25" high cells would fit in your
> Sparrow? If so, they are cheaper than a new set of Optimas, and should
> beat them in energy density. Optima is 12v x 55ah x 13 = 8.58kwh. 15 of
> these cells fit in the Optima footprint, for a total of 1.2v x 34ah x 15
> x 13 = 7.956kwh. So once you take Peukert into account, the nicads win.
> --
> Lee A. Hart
Hi David, Lee and Others,
I have a charity project I'm doing for a friend, one fo those scooters for
the elderly. We need batteries for it. Tired fo buying new ones every two
years is what my "customer" is telling me. She needs something that won't
leak when she lifts the battery box up into the trunk of her car, and
something that can be recharged using a 6 amp automotive battery charger.
Will these fit those two needs? I am also assuming they would weigh perhaps
a tad less than lead acid batteries, is that correct?
Thanks,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:33 PM 11/30/2002 -0800, Lee Hart wrote:
John, is there any chance these 9.25" high cells would fit in your
Sparrow? If so, they are cheaper than a new set of Optimas, and should
(Actually, they come out to the same price as a new pack of Optimas.)
An Optima YT is 7.8" tall. (I'm assuming the posts are another 1"
more). IF we assume the 9.25" height of these cells INCLUDES the
posts/filler cap, that makes them 1/2" taller than the YT's. There are
several YT sized areas that don't have this extra height. Even if I
figured a way to wedge them in, watering in place would be impossible. I'd
have to pull the pack out of the car to water it.
Then there is the voltage problem. 15 of these makes a 18V battery. So I
can either replace the controller (absolute max voltage, being dangerous,
is 200V). Or run with 2 strings of 118V or so. Neither one sounds like a
good choice.
One question about NiCd's. How does Peukert affect them? Not at all? Or
just less than Lead-Acid?
I need about 5.5KWH for my normal commute.
Now, they also have some 24AH cells that are 3.125"x1"x8.125". Depending
on how much puzzle work is done, between 18 and 21 of these could be fit in
for each YT. Say I can wedge in 20. This at least gives 2 strings of
156V, so the voltage would be ok. Their height should fit without undo
contortions, and I MIGHT be able to hook up some kind of watering system to
the hard-to-reach cells. That would give 7.488KWH of capacity (is there
any Peukert adjustment here?)
It would cost (they don't show any quantity price breaks on this cell)
about $1820. I'd probably want to buy a dozen or two extra cells for
replacements, so add another $150 to that.
Hmm, might be a possibility. Questions on this are:
1) (again) Peukert effect on NiCd? (hopefully none?)
2) Do NiCd play nicely in parallel?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody. I've a potential problem. I have an analog ammeter
(Westach brand) connected across the 500 amp shunt. When I set
up the regen on my Zapi sem-3 controller (which is currently set
for minimum regen) am I going to kill the ammeter? My knowledge
of electronics is limited. Will a bridge rectifier work to keep
the ammeter showing positive or do diodes require higher voltage
than the 50 mv shunt will provide? I could just take the
ammeter out and rely on the e-meter, of course, but it looks cool
in my dash alongside a similar style voltmeter.
Mike Hoskinson
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--- Begin Message ---
I love the silence of an EV, but I also know there is a huge downside to
this. If there were a significant number of EV's on the rode I believe
there would be a lot more accidents involving pedestrians and bicyclists. I
know that my ears are almost always first to alert me that a car is
somewhere in the immediate vicinity.
Your vehicle doesn't have cold start pollution, fill-up service
station pollution, noise pollution (one of my favorites), etc.
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
One of our chapter members is trying to get his Lectric Leopard back on the
road. Does anyone know of any good parts sources? As I understand it, at
the moment he is in need of a clutch cable.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rick wrote:
> Hi David, Lee and Others,
>
> I have a charity project I'm doing for a friend, one fo those
> scooters for the elderly. We need batteries for it. Tired fo buying
> new ones every two years is what my "customer" is telling me. She
> needs something that won't leak when she lifts the battery box up
> into the trunk of her car, and something that can be recharged using
> a 6 amp automotive battery charger.
Two years is pretty poor life for a battery. My guess is that a) they
are being run dead before recharging, and b) the charger is murdering
them.
Electric scooters don't need to draw high currents, so sealed gel
batteries are fine. But they should not be run down any more than about
halfway on any given charge cycle. Life will be considerably longer this
way.
Second, you can't charge sealed batteries with a cheap automotive
charger. It doesn't know when to quit, and so blindly overcharges them
on every charge cycle. This leads to early battery failure. You need a
charger specifically designed for sealed batteries, that detects the
state of charge of the battery, does not apply too high a voltage, does
not apply high current while at high voltages, and that turns off when
it is full.
> Will these fit those two needs? I am also assuming they would weigh
> perhaps a tad less than lead acid batteries, is that correct?
These nicads are flooded batteries; they gas when being charged, and you
have to add water regularly. They are excellent at delivering high
currents, but lead-acid will beat them at low currents. They would not
be a good choice for your friend's scooter.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> An Optima YT is 7.8" tall. (I'm assuming the posts are another 1"
> more). IF we assume the 9.25" height of these cells INCLUDES the
> posts/filler cap, that makes them 1/2" taller than the YT's.
The 9.25" is the total height, including terminals and vent cap.
> Even if I figured a way to wedge them in, watering in place would be
> impossible. I'd have to pull the pack out of the car to water it.
Or more likely, set up an automatic watering system.
> Then there is the voltage problem. 15 of these makes a 18V battery.
Yes; they lead to a new system voltage.
> One question about NiCd's. How does Peukert affect them? Not at all?
Not at all. Peukert's equation applies to lead-acid. It was empirically
derived from testing lead-acid battery capacity vs. discharge current,
and fitting a simple equation to the curve.
There *is* a similar effect. The cutoff point for nicads is about 1.0v
per cell, and it reaches it with fewer amphours as the discharge current
gets higher. It is mainly caused by the cell's internal resistance. But
the internal resistance of nicads is so low that it doesn't make much
difference until you get to really large currents.
> I need about 5.5KWH for my normal commute.
> Now, they also have some 24AH cells that are 3.125"x1"x8.125".
> Depending on how much puzzle work is done, between 18 and 21 of these
> could be fit in for each YT. Say I can wedge in 20. This at least
> gives 2 strings of 156V, so the voltage would be ok. Their height
> should fit without undue contortions, and I MIGHT be able to hook
> up some kind of watering system to the hard-to-reach cells.
The simplest scheme is usually to have two hoses in each vent, one that
ends high in the air space, and one that that ends at the desired
electrolyte level. All of them are plumbed in series.
Pump electrolyte into the high hose of the first cell. It fills until
the level in that cell reaches the low hose; now it is full. Electrolyte
now flows up the hose to the next cell. It fills to the desired level,
then further electrolyte flows to the next cell, and so on. When
electrolyte comes out the other end, all cells are full. Now use the
pump to suck electrolyte out the last cell's low hose; this clears all
the hose of excess electrolyte.
Finally, check the level in the electrolyte tank, and add enough water
to bring it back to "full".
> That would give 7.488KWH of capacity (is there any Peukert adjustment
> here?)
No.
> It would cost (they don't show any quantity price breaks on this
> cell) about $1820. I'd probably want to buy a dozen or two extra
> cells for replacements, so add another $150 to that. Hmm, might
> be a possibility. Questions on this are:
> 1) (again) Peukert effect on NiCd? (hopefully none?)
See above.
> 2) Do NiCd play nicely in parallel?
They are OK on discharge. On charge, you can have problems, especially
at higher temperatures and charging currents. The simplest solution
would be to charge them independently (2 chargers), or sequentially
(charge one, then the other) or alternate between them (keep switching
the charger back and forth between the two strings every 5 minutes or
so).
You'd need a different charging algorithm (which might be a challenge to
get for the Zivan).
If it were me, I'd group the batteries in some convenient voltage, like
12v, and rig some kind of monitoring and control system.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I recall there was a test on that very subject several years ago. The
quietest vehicle in the test was not an EV, even though one was included in
the test. The newer ICE cars, especially high dollar ones, tend to be
incredibly quiet.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
At 05:42 PM 12/1/02 +0000, you wrote:
I love the silence of an EV, but I also know there is a huge downside to
this. If there were a significant number of EV's on the rode I believe
there would be a lot more accidents involving pedestrians and
bicyclists. I know that my ears are almost always first to alert me that
a car is somewhere in the immediate vicinity.
Your vehicle doesn't have cold start pollution, fill-up service
station pollution, noise pollution (one of my favorites), etc.
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
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