EV Digest 2481
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Water drag eats ahs
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: GEM driving (was: EVs on TVs)
by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: SAFT NiCads (was: Coolant pump choice?)
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: KTA Services info.
by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: GEM driving (was: EVs on TVs)
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: liquid heater tanks
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging
by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Little trip to Berkeley. Range calculation.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Woodburn?
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Range calculation.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Range calculation.
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Range calculation.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Range calculation.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: "Light Dimmer" charger
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Charging
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: electric VW Pickup for sale
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: SAFT NiCads (was: Coolant pump choice?)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Range calculation.
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: L91-4003, Max RPM's?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: OT mileage computers
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: SAFT NiCads (was: Coolant pump choice?)
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: OT mileage computers Re: Water drag eats ahs
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Following this thread what will be the effect on my nicads in the
currenteliminator dragster not fully charging/overcharging after each
run/cycle for perhaps as many as 10 cycles before fully charging/overcharging
during the week?I also plan to use a low current to finish and maintain
during the weekly down times.
Dennis Kilowatt Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 2:48 AM
Subject: Water drag eats ahs
> When I drove through pools of standing water on the highway, that is
> where I felt not only the loss of traction (hydroplaning) but a slow
> down when passing through.
>
> Could it be that these tires are hanging on to the water and causing
> a drag (which uses more power)?
Yes, standing water does cause added drag. Think of your tires as
similar to small boats being pushed through the water or hydroplaning
on top of the water. That consumes power. Additional power is
consumed by underchassis and underbody parts colliding with water
thrown up by the tires.
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ed wrote:
> BTW - great writeup in the latest EV News evaluating NEVs. All of them
> had a top speed just under 25mph
I saw a blurb on the news recently about a GEM owner that was suing Chrysler. He had
been ticketed for driving on a street with a
minimum speed limit of 35MPH (unposted, I believe). The owner claimed that the dealer
and/or Chrysler had made specific assurances
that the vehicle could be driven on any street, but would likely be prohibited from
highways.
His state (Florida ?) has minimum speed laws on certain streets as well as highways,
and one of those streets is on the route he needs to
get to his local shopping plaza. Chrysler said they would buy the vehicle back, but
the man is somehow disabled and claims the GEM had
provided him with a means of getting around the neighborhood on his own instead of
relying upon others as he had in the past, so he
was reluctant to return it.
The final irony was that his stated plans were to contest the ticket in court, but the
courthouse was on one of the restricted streets, so
he could not drive there.
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked into it more, 500A for 10sec. You know better than I do what
your Wabbit needs for accel, but you probably aren't outside that
envelope by too much.
Seth
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
>
> At 08:41 PM 12/14/02, you wrote:
> >Bill, in case you haven't considered, they are only rated for 120 watts
> >per kg at 13.2kg, or ~264A.
>
> SAFT rates them at 500 amps.
>
> Also Joe Smalleys tests
> >indicate that more power is available,
>
> Joe and Rich's data show a max power transfer at about 1000 amps.
> I'm not sure how this would effect the cycle life. No doubt, it is
> dependent on duration and the temperature of the battery an it's components.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph-
If you are (legally) able to put that information on a server somewhere,
it might be useful to those who are considering NiCd purchases.
Seth
Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> > As for the SAFT NiCads, it appears that you could use a lower
> > current for the finish charge. The technical manual only specifies the
> > percentage of overcharge, not the time and current. They give and example
> > in another document, however, showing 5 amps.
>
> The SAFT Technical Manual, section 5.2.4, Recommended Charging Method,
> specifies two constant current phases, the first phase (bulk) being 0.2C
> (C/5) and the second phase (overcharge) being 0.05C (C/20).
>
> The methods described in the "Description of Charge Mode for Low Maintenance
> STM Modules" documents, for both the STM 5-100 and STM 5-140 modules, follow
> the Recommended Method but have more detail. The values shown in the Charge
> Parameters tables in back of the documents match the C/5 and C/20 rates from
> the Technical Manual.
>
> Ralph
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[snip]
> Is anyone else nervous?
Is the fact that in October, Ford's sales dropped by 35%, Gm's sales dropped by 32%,
Chrysler's sales dropped by 31%, and in November,
Ford's sales dropped by 21%, Gm's sales dropped by 19%, Chrysler's sales dropped by
12%, enough to be nervous about ?
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm. So he was ticketed on a street with a minimum speed
limit of 35 mph. I presume that the maximum limit was much
higher, perhaps 45 or 50. Most locales limit NEVs to streets and
roads where the maximum speed limit is 35 or less. I wonder
what grounds he has to contest the ticket?
There's probably more to this story than I'm getting from
reading this message.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: GEM driving (was: EVs on TVs)
>
> Ed wrote:
>
> > BTW - great writeup in the latest EV News evaluating NEVs. All of them
> > had a top speed just under 25mph
>
> I saw a blurb on the news recently about a GEM owner that was suing
Chrysler. He had been ticketed for driving on a street with a
> minimum speed limit of 35MPH (unposted, I believe). The owner claimed that
the dealer and/or Chrysler had made specific assurances
> that the vehicle could be driven on any street, but would likely be
prohibited from highways.
>
> His state (Florida ?) has minimum speed laws on certain streets as well as
highways, and one of those streets is on the route he needs to
> get to his local shopping plaza. Chrysler said they would buy the vehicle
back, but the man is somehow disabled and claims the GEM had
> provided him with a means of getting around the neighborhood on his own
instead of relying upon others as he had in the past, so he
> was reluctant to return it.
>
> The final irony was that his stated plans were to contest the ticket in
court, but the courthouse was on one of the restricted streets, so
> he could not drive there.
>
>
> Vince
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got the RUSSCO Safety Heater when I put my Rabbit together back
in '94, and aside from a leak caused by an improper plumbing job,
and an intermittant caused by a faulty ground for the 12V pump to
chasis, I have had no problems with this unit - all the problems
have been my fault. But I'm kinda wishing now that I had gone
the ceramic heater route, since I do have to wait for about 5
minutes and spend the energy to heat the coolant up to 165-degF,
and there's the additional plumbing and weight and potential for
leaks, etc. But once the coolant is heated up, there is some
thermal inertia that could work to my advantage, assuming I had a
switch and relay to turn off the heater coils and keep the pump
circulating. The heater appears to have an ABS plastic cylinder
attached to a box with the electronics in it; on the other end is
the 12V coolant pump. I don't know what's on the inside, but the
unit itself has never leaked or shorted or anything like that. A
cabin heater is mandatory to defrost/fog the windows (which I
need to do in wet weather like we have in NoCal in the winter,
especially if I have just come out of the gym all hot and
sweaty). Heater wires in the windows might also work, but that
is really rare. A 50W seat cushion works fine for my tush and
keeps me warm for a lot less energy than the 1300W cabin heater.
If you give Russ Kaufmann a call at 707-542-4151, he might be
willing to discuss the scene on what he knows about heaters.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:06 PM
Subject: liquid heater tanks
> I'm working on adding a heater to my insight conversion (in
progress). I
> plan on using 3 commodity water heater elements (240V at 1500V)
in a
> triangle pattern. Two elements will be DC driven off of the
pack, with a
> contactor and arc suppression, while the third will be used for
pre-heating
> while charging (120/240 VAC). (Once you make it large enough
for two heater
> elements, you can get the third one in without increasing the
diameter of
> the tank). The pre-heating should help get me off to a fast
defrost on these
> cold and humid Oregon mornings.
>
> My question is, what materials do folks use for the tank?
>
> I was thinking of 4" diameter ABS PVC pipe with end caps,
perhaps with a
> metal lining inside.
>
> 3/4" OD copper pipes would let the coolant in and out, and I'll
be using a
> small 12VDC pump rated to 210 degrees F.
>
> Thoughts, concerns, or recommendations?
>
> Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lonnie wrote:
> I understand your point, but we don't need it to run out. Just have
> the gas prices go back up to $2.25+ where it was a while back, and
> then stay there for a year or three, and you'll see a LOT of work
> toward more "alternative" vehicles.
Fat chance. The Bushies have proposed raising the fuel mileage regs on SUVs by less
than .5MPG/year over three years. That's a
proposal that makes mere tokenism look good.
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth,
The information is on John Benson's web page (http://www.e-m-w.com/manuals/).
He has the Technical Manual and the specific charge description for the
STM 5-100 modules. I have a paper copy of the description for the STM 5-140
modules, but other than the actual charging currents in the different phases
the information is the same as for the 100ah modules.
Ralph
Seth writes:
>
> Ralph-
>
> If you are (legally) able to put that information on a server somewhere,
> it might be useful to those who are considering NiCd purchases.
>
> Seth
>
> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > >
> > > As for the SAFT NiCads, it appears that you could use a lower
> > > current for the finish charge. The technical manual only specifies the
> > > percentage of overcharge, not the time and current. They give and example
> > > in another document, however, showing 5 amps.
> >
> > The SAFT Technical Manual, section 5.2.4, Recommended Charging Method,
> > specifies two constant current phases, the first phase (bulk) being 0.2C
> > (C/5) and the second phase (overcharge) being 0.05C (C/20).
> >
> > The methods described in the "Description of Charge Mode for Low Maintenance
> > STM Modules" documents, for both the STM 5-100 and STM 5-140 modules, follow
> > the Recommended Method but have more detail. The values shown in the Charge
> > Parameters tables in back of the documents match the C/5 and C/20 rates from
> > the Technical Manual.
> >
> > Ralph
>
> --
> vze3v25q@verizondotnet
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since I will be using only a ampmeter and a volt meter in my conversion is
there anyway of using the voltage as a ballpark state of charge. I know it
isn't as accurate as an emeter but there must be some way of ballparking it.
Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Little trip to Berkeley. Range calculation.
> Steve wrote a good summary. There's little I can add.
>
> Steve Clunn wrote:
> > Here is how I figure things (saw this years ago in Home Power).
> > First I pick a load which is close to a C1 (what I think would draw
> > the bat down in 1 hour). For my golf cart bats that's 100 amps.
> > According to Home Power under a C1 load that bat will be full at
> > 11.5v and empty at 10.5v (12 volt lead acid).
>
> Good description!
>
> > The resting voltage to me does not have that much meaning as it
> > changes the longer the bats sit. Lee has said a sitting bat is full
> > at 13v and empty at 12v but I don't remember how long they have to
> > sit.
>
> Those are good numbers for sealed lead-acid batteries, whose resting
> voltages are a bit higher. Floodeds have the same low end, but will only
> be around 12.7v fully charged.
>
> > How many amps (app) does your car draw when going 55? If these are
> > new bats they will get even better over the next 6 months.
>
> Yep!
>
> > I have had more bats packs then I can remember but each one has been
> > a little different. I have to get to know each one. I do this with
> > the 100 amp load (50 amp for 12v 'ers).
>
> The "standard" load is 75 amps for 6v batteries, and 25 amps for 12v
> batteries. If you use these loads, you can compare your data to
> published data.
>
> > You can see the difference that temp makes with this also. Yesterday
> > It was freazzzzzzing here! I mean COLD! I'm talking like lowww 60's.
>
> (ignore the snickering from the Minnesotan)
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last word I had from Lou Tauber is that they are looking for a new venue, as
the Woodburn track was not being very cooperative. Bummer, since it is in my
backyard!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: http://www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 11:23 PM
Subject: Woodburn?
> Hi All;
>
> Is the 2003 Woodburn Drags gunna run Labor Day Weekend, again?? If not
,
> when? Gotta put in for vacation for it again.
>
> Seeya there?
>
> Bob
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Is there any way of using the voltage as a ballpark state of charge?
> I know it isn't as accurate as an emeter but there must be some way
> of ballparking it.
Voltmeters have been calibrated to function as SOC (State Of Charge)
gauges for a hundred years. Even today, we have them (like the Curtis
and Anderson SOC gauges). It's crude, but it works (sort of).
Here's what I would do.
First, let's assume your voltmeter is really a 0-1ma analog
milliammeter. That means it reads "0" with no current, and full scale
with 1ma flowing in it. Its basic resistance will typically be pretty
low; like 100 ohms for one I grabbed out of my junkbox.
You want it to be an expanded-scale voltmeter. Suppose your pack voltage
is 120v. It's going to range from about 100v (very dead and under load)
to 150v (fully charged and being equalized). So, your basic circuit
would have the meter, a resistor, and a zener diode all in series.
The zener diode would be 100v (like a 1N4764A), so at 100v it doesn't
yet conduct and the meter reads zero.
The resistor would be chosen so the meter reads full scale at 150v. At
150v there would be 100v across the zener, so 50v across the resistor. R
= 50v / 1ma = 50k ohms. I'd make it a pot so I could adjust the exact
reading for calibration.
Now, you would make a custom scale for the meter. Calibrate it with a
good, known accuracy digital meter. 100v will be around 0 on the meter,
and 150v around full scale, with equal divisions in between.
You can add an SOC scale as well. The voltage vs SOC for a flooded
battery under a "typical" load (like 75 amps for a golf cart battery) is
about:
SOC per cell per 6v per 12v
--- -------- ------ -------
100% 2.09v/cell 6.3v 12.6v
75% 2.06v/cell 6.18v 12.37v
50% 2.03v/cell 6.08v 12.16v
25% 1.98v/cell 5.97v 11.93v
0% 1.75v/cell 5.25v 10.5v
Notice that it is nonlinear; it falls faster as the battery gets closer
to 0% SOC. Also, it changes depending on load current and temperature,
but there's not much you can do about it with a simple circuit.
Next problem; the meter jumps around a lot as you accellerate and coast,
because the battery voltage changes so much under load. The simplest fix
is to put a big electrolytic capacitor across the meter's terminals.
Ideally, you want a *very* long time constant, like 5-15 minutes. But
with a meter of only 100 ohms, even a 1 farad supercapacitor is only a T
= 1f x 100 ohms = 100 second time constant. So, put a resistor of about
2000 ohms in series with the meter positive, and connect the capacitor
between the junction of this resistor and the 50k pot and the meter's
negative. Now, at 150v there will be 1ma flowing, producing a 2v drop
across the 2000 ohm resistor. 2v is about the most a supercapacitor can
take. But now you can get a 10 minute time constant with a much smaller
capacitor. T = 0.33 farad x (2000 + 100 ohms) = 693 seconds = 11.55
minutes.
The resulting circuit looks like this (display with a fixed width font):
\
120v pack+ ____|/|____/\/\/\ pot, 50k
|\| ^
\ |______/\/\/\____
100v | resistor _|_+
zener diode _|_+ 2k / \ analog meter
1N4764A ___ 0.33uf \___/ 0-1ma, ~100 ohms
| 2.5vdc | -
120v pack- ______________|________________|
Mark the SOC scale on the meter.
Note that you can mark a second SOC scale on the meter too, if desired,
that corresponds to the SOC at other currents. For example, you might
want one for no-load, and one for while your charger is operating.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2002-12-16 at 00:19, Lee Hart wrote:
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > Is there any way of using the voltage as a ballpark state of charge?
> > I know it isn't as accurate as an emeter but there must be some way
> > of ballparking it.
>
> Voltmeters have been calibrated to function as SOC (State Of Charge)
> gauges for a hundred years. Even today, we have them (like the Curtis
> and Anderson SOC gauges). It's crude, but it works (sort of).
>
It's a bit more complicated than that Lee. He wants one that will tell
him SOC from the resting pack voltage after an unspecified amount of
time
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> The resulting circuit looks like this (display with a fixed width
> font):
> \
> 120v pack+ ____|/|____/\/\/\ pot, 50k
> |\| ^
> \ |______/\/\/\____
> 100v | resistor _|_+
> zener diode _|_+ 2k / \ analog meter
> 1N4764A ___ 0.33f \___/ 0-1ma, ~100 ohms
> | 2.5vdc | -
> 120v pack- ______________|________________|
Oops; the capacitor should have been 0.33f (FARAD), not 0.33uf
(microfarad). I was off by "only" a factor of a million. :-)
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
> It's a bit more complicated than that Lee. He wants one that will tell
> him SOC from the resting pack voltage after an unspecified amount of
> time.
Well, it's the best I can do with something simple.
I will say that the Anderson Power Products SOC gauge, which came with
my 1980 ComutaVan, did indeed indicate SOC reasonably well. It is
basically just an expanded scale voltmeter with a very long time
constant. It is nowhere near as good as an E-meter, but also 1/100th of
the complexity.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try http://www.100megsfree.com/davidbr13/evtechpapers/bc-20.pdf Section 5
beginning on page 17.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: "Light Dimmer" charger
> I would like to thank all for posting a response to the charge rate
question.
> What is a "Light Dimmer" charger? If I pop the case open, I will find a
triac
> chopper inside? If so, it might explain why this device is so touchy to
set
> the finishing voltage for.
>
> Could somebody that has poked around inside a Russco charger tell me in
> general terms how it works? And why it blows a fuse if it is not
connected to
> a load?
>
> thanks
>
> Joe
>
> "White Rabbit" `81 Rabbit Pickup
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/390.html
> Joe Miller KI7WV
> jmiller_at_eyes_dot_arizona_dot_edu
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe the two amp equalize current was based on the recombination
capability of the cells and the temperature rise.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: Charging
> If this worked on Optimas, they probably would have specified it
> as it is easier to implement. I think they may have carefully picked the 2
> amp number. As I said in a previous post, you might consider the 30 second
> 50% duty cycle 2 amp finish charge like they tried at NREL. This seemed to
> work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The links to SAFT on that page are not working for me. Do they work for you?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging
>
> Seth,
>
> The information is on John Benson's web page
(http://www.e-m-w.com/manuals/).
> He has the Technical Manual and the specific charge description for the
> STM 5-100 modules. I have a paper copy of the description for the STM
5-140
> modules, but other than the actual charging currents in the different
phases
> the information is the same as for the 100ah modules.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> Seth writes:
> >
> > Ralph-
> >
> > If you are (legally) able to put that information on a server somewhere,
> > it might be useful to those who are considering NiCd purchases.
> >
> > Seth
> >
> > Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > >
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > > >
> > > > As for the SAFT NiCads, it appears that you could use a
lower
> > > > current for the finish charge. The technical manual only specifies
the
> > > > percentage of overcharge, not the time and current. They give and
example
> > > > in another document, however, showing 5 amps.
> > >
> > > The SAFT Technical Manual, section 5.2.4, Recommended Charging Method,
> > > specifies two constant current phases, the first phase (bulk) being
0.2C
> > > (C/5) and the second phase (overcharge) being 0.05C (C/20).
> > >
> > > The methods described in the "Description of Charge Mode for Low
Maintenance
> > > STM Modules" documents, for both the STM 5-100 and STM 5-140 modules,
follow
> > > the Recommended Method but have more detail. The values shown in the
Charge
> > > Parameters tables in back of the documents match the C/5 and C/20
rates from
> > > the Technical Manual.
> > >
> > > Ralph
> >
> > --
> > vze3v25q@verizondotnet
> >
>
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the album pic is a before? I think a slightly used conversion which has been
tested would be worth more that what you have into it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 10:17 AM
Subject: electric VW Pickup for sale
> I have decided to sell my "81 Rabbit Pickup EV. I have $12,
> 000 into this EV with receipts for $10, 000 of it. I don't have the
> receipts for the motor (used - private party purchase) or controller
> (misplaced it). Unlike most EVs for sale - this one has *good*
> batteries, 20 Dyno GC2b 6v golf cart batteries (600 miles on the
> pack).
That would be my pick on the bats ,I have had a tast of speed but at
times I'v had to go 80 miles in one day and did it wiht golf gart bats and
opp charging
> The Pickup is very rust free, though its a common problem for
> this vehicle (straitness and no rust was a large part of why I bought
> it). It was stripped when painted, so there is no paint on the trim
> or window rubber (front and rear rubber are new).
restored I'd call it . how long have you had this car?
It was painted '81
> VW Alpine white, inside and out (convertible color, stock was
> cashmere white). The interior is a dark blue - the dash and
> instrument panel are in excellent shape, no cracks, the odometer and
> analog clock work. I have a set of new reproduction seat covers, the
> bottoms need to be installed but the original back rests are in good
> shape. I have a carpet kit for it too. I will also include the
> original 13 inch aluminum wheels and any other spare Rabbit parts I
> have in my garage (including a spare transaxle with shorter gearing).
What would you have charged to do this conversion?
> This pickup sports a new GTI kit, 4 wheel flares, front air
> dam and hardware (over $200 from my local VW dealer). A new
> windshield, new grill and headlight surrounds, new bumper end caps,
> and brand new taillights. It also comes with 15" Konig wheels and
> directional rain tyres. You can see pictures of this Pickup right
> after it came back from paint on the EV album at
> <http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/296.html>
(I took take the time to
> reinstall the steering wheel and the wheels and tyres before taking
> pictures).
> Pickup only has 161k miles on it. The "glow plug" light is
> used to show precharge, oil pressure light shows motor overtemp, the
> alternator light shows if the 12v system voltage drops under 12.1v (a
> modified mark 1 Rudman reg operates an NC relay to drive this). An
> E-meter is installed to keep track of the battery pack. The charger
> is offboard, and included, its a duel voltage (120vac or 240vac
> input) Lester ferroresonant charger. The motor is a Prestolite
> MTC-4002, the controller a DCP Raptor 450, and the DC>DC converter is
> a Todd PC 25 LV. Heat is provided by 2 ceramic heaters, for about
> 3000 watts (switchable for 0, 1500, or 3000 watts with the stock
> temp lever).
Those are the little things that count but why so cheep ant EV's selling
there? Some day you'rr look backa and say I sold that for what@! I think
there just about to catch on . With NEV's in the hands of goe 6 pack they
are going to want the next step up jWhich will be a conversion or what ever
under ground car company is ready to give them . There will bee a run on
all the used cars and everbody that dose conversions will be booked solid .
Prices will go up but there wont be any to buy when hundereds of people are
looking for them . and then it will pop as the big car makers get in gear.
There is still time to do a nice conversion ,things are moving slow , pop
your hood any were you go and peop;e gather round .
> Of course, everyone wants to know *why* a vehicle is being
> sold. In my case its because I don't need the range. I've only once
> taken the batteries below to 50% SOC.
You have had a tast of somthing fast and are thinking I don
't need the range but I do need the speed?
>Also, I have a new, top secret,
> EV project I want to undertake.
speed
Its an EV especially for my wife -
> and show (and to my knowledge this project vehicle has never been
> made into an EV before).
I'll try that line on my wife and see if it flys (joke)
> I'm asking $7000 for this unique VW Pickup. I have at least
> $12,000 into it so you will get your moneys worth. There are to many
> new parts to list, if you are interested feel free to contact me
> offlist with questions or for a phone number to call me. John Wayland
> and Geoff Shepherd can also tell you about its construction (I think
> they are the only other list members to have seen it firsthand). This
> is NOT a rolling science project.
>
> Paul "neon" Gooch
> in Everett WA
>
This sounds like a fine car . sombody thinking of builbing one could get
started now wiht your >
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At 01:28 PM 12/15/02, you wrote:
I looked into it more, 500A for 10sec. You know better than I do what
your Wabbit needs for accel, but you probably aren't outside that
envelope by too much.
At 180 volts nominal, 500 amps works out to be about 100 HP. I
think the performance will be plenty snappy.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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I made one from an old car tac meter and got to like it but still checked it
wiht a digital meter all the time . I didn't have the caps thats a nice
idea.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: Range calculation.
> Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
> > It's a bit more complicated than that Lee. He wants one that will tell
> > him SOC from the resting pack voltage after an unspecified amount of
> > time.
>
> Well, it's the best I can do with something simple.
>
> I will say that the Anderson Power Products SOC gauge, which came with
> my 1980 ComutaVan, did indeed indicate SOC reasonably well. It is
> basically just an expanded scale voltmeter with a very long time
> constant. It is nowhere near as good as an E-meter, but also 1/100th of
> the complexity.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
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"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
>
>
> I would advise you to get an 8 inch.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
As I have you Bill!!
Toy windings melt easier...Bigger ones are NOT 2x but carry more than 2x the
amps. Hence 2x the power with a LOT less than 2x the weight.
A single 8 will get your bike going faster than 2 smaller ones.
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At 12:33 PM 12/15/02, you wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> As for the SAFT NiCads, it appears that you could use a lower
> current for the finish charge. The technical manual only specifies the
> percentage of overcharge, not the time and current. They give and example
> in another document, however, showing 5 amps.
The SAFT Technical Manual, section 5.2.4, Recommended Charging Method,
specifies two constant current phases, the first phase (bulk) being 0.2C
(C/5) and the second phase (overcharge) being 0.05C (C/20).
The methods described in the "Description of Charge Mode for Low Maintenance
STM Modules" documents, for both the STM 5-100 and STM 5-140 modules, follow
the Recommended Method but have more detail. The values shown in the Charge
Parameters tables in back of the documents match the C/5 and C/20 rates from
the Technical Manual.
They also give a formula to calculate proper the overcharge. In
that formula, they do not specify the bulk current or the finish current or
the exact time of any portion of the charge. They use variables for all of
these. This implies that it is the relationship between these values that
is important, not that specific values must be used. Otherwise, why put in
the formula at all?
Indeed, I plan to run the example currents of 20 amps and 5 amps,
but there is no requirement that these exact currents be used.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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Lee Hart writes:
"I suspect that aftermarket mpg computers disappeared as cars became much
more difficult to work on."
This period was something of a scandal where the backyard mechanic was
disenfranchised. As with so many things today, real 'information' is
only what someone is motivated to let you have. Public relations,
marketing, protection of intellectual assets means the 'knowledge most
people have is pap. Having paid for a car, the information it's
computer has should be mine.
"You couldn't get at the fuel line, it used
special fittings you couldn't get, high pressures with the pump in the
gas tank made leaks more serious, or there were pressure return lines
from the injectors to the tank that made simple fuel flow measurements
impossible."
The fuel temp., pressure and pulse time are available from the EEC.
This gives a really good fuel flow estimate. As I understand it, the
EEC has car speed (or certainly could figure it out), rpm, throttle
position, sometimes atmospheric pressure, manifold press., exhaust
temp., sometimes all 4 wheel speeds, knock detection, air mass flow,
spark timing, deviation in spark timing, parameters indicating
deterioration, specific engine problems allowing simplified trouble
shooting indications, rich-lean or fuel/air ratio, water temperature,
Amps, Volts, and more.
A low octane fuel could be signaled and they are out there (pet
peeve). I can get a partial read out of these values with a $3-400
instrument.
At the same time, it became *easier* for the car companies to add mpg
computers if they so desired. Once you have a fuel injected engine and
electronic speedometer, the emission control computer can easily
calculate mpg.
"But just because it only cost the auto company $5 to add
it doesn't mean they won't charge $500 for the option. :-)"
They don't offer the option; the aftermarket does though. Much of the
computer output from a 'standard' serial connector is defined by laws
and standards. Not easy to read. The car companies have additional
data that hackers have figured out, used for their own purposes.
By the way, are you more paranoid people out there sure that your car
won't testify against you; read up on the recent ITS work (intelligent
transportation systems). How about you have an accident, the officer
plugs into your car, downloads everything you've been doing for the
last x period. And, you don't even have the right to see the data
until you're in the court room. By the way, the car called the cop.
And, GM will get the data. I'm not kidding. Go ahead and get 'On Star'
______________________________________________________________________
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If you use a browser with Java Script and Style Sheets enabled, go to
www.saftamerica.com, then to automotive. You will get redirected to the
Saft UK site But that isn't where the technical manuals are for NiCads.
They are at that e-m-w.com site.
Seth
Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> The links to SAFT on that page are not working for me. Do they work for you?
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 5:02 PM
> Subject: Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging
>
> >
> > Seth,
> >
> > The information is on John Benson's web page
> (http://www.e-m-w.com/manuals/).
> > He has the Technical Manual and the specific charge description for the
> > STM 5-100 modules. I have a paper copy of the description for the STM
> 5-140
> > modules, but other than the actual charging currents in the different
> phases
> > the information is the same as for the 100ah modules.
> >
> > Ralph
> >
> >
> > Seth writes:
> > >
> > > Ralph-
> > >
> > > If you are (legally) able to put that information on a server somewhere,
> > > it might be useful to those who are considering NiCd purchases.
> > >
> > > Seth
> > >
> > > Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the SAFT NiCads, it appears that you could use a
> lower
> > > > > current for the finish charge. The technical manual only specifies
> the
> > > > > percentage of overcharge, not the time and current. They give and
> example
> > > > > in another document, however, showing 5 amps.
> > > >
> > > > The SAFT Technical Manual, section 5.2.4, Recommended Charging Method,
> > > > specifies two constant current phases, the first phase (bulk) being
> 0.2C
> > > > (C/5) and the second phase (overcharge) being 0.05C (C/20).
> > > >
> > > > The methods described in the "Description of Charge Mode for Low
> Maintenance
> > > > STM Modules" documents, for both the STM 5-100 and STM 5-140 modules,
> follow
> > > > the Recommended Method but have more detail. The values shown in the
> Charge
> > > > Parameters tables in back of the documents match the C/5 and C/20
> rates from
> > > > the Technical Manual.
> > > >
> > > > Ralph
> > >
> > > --
> > > vze3v25q@verizondotnet
> > >
> >
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
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I didin't mean to pester you Bill, I just had heard that they are pretty
soft at higher currents, that's all.
Seth
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
>
> At 01:28 PM 12/15/02, you wrote:
> >I looked into it more, 500A for 10sec. You know better than I do what
> >your Wabbit needs for accel, but you probably aren't outside that
> >envelope by too much.
>
> At 180 volts nominal, 500 amps works out to be about 100 HP. I
> think the performance will be plenty snappy.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
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> >> I assume he meant on a mass scale. You have someplace you
> >can store a few hundred kilowatts of electricity for an
> >extended period of
> >> time ?
> >>
> >> Besides, the thrust of his article is to decentralize the
> >production of hydrogen AND electricity.
> >>
> >
> >Even on a mass scale batteries are a better solution than hydrogen
> >(using current technology). However if you want truly
> >massive storage
> >there are other even better solutions. Pumped Hydro, huge
> >gyros, etc.
I dont know if toting huge gyros to the next city and back is a feasable
idea.
I guess you could pump water up a really tall ladder, and store it on top of
your vehicle
but it hope you dont have to drive through any intersections with
stoplights, or under any bridges.
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My 99 Chrysler has this computer. It will read instaneous miles per gallon
as well as cumulative since the last time you reset it. Unfortunately, the
display is one of about 6 or 7 that you have to scroll through to see - can
only have one up at a time.
Dave Davidson
1993 Dodge TEVan
From: John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: OT mileage computers Re: Water drag eats ahs
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:14:59 +0000
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> [Since Automakers are taking good ideas from EVs to add to their ICE
> hybrids, rather than 1.5 mpg increase, wouldn't it be better to
> add a digital mpg read-out in the dash cluster?]
I think it's been proven that such a thing would decrease
fuel consumption. Perhaps that's why.... There used to be several
companies that made aftermarket mileage computers, you could get them
at any general auto parts store, and JCWhitney had a variety of models
to choose from. There was a point (I think early 90's), where they
vanished from all of these sources at exactly the same time, and
haven't been available (that I know of) from anyplace since. The
reason that I noticed is that I was in the market for one when they
vanished, ....and still am. I have an interesting unit from England
that was trusty and accurate for years, but then it started loosing
it's calibration when I would hit a bump, it got worse until it quit
working altogether. It's in my project pile of things to fix, however
there was nothing obviously wrong like a cracked trace or anything.
A quick search on the net just now turned up this humorous statement
about a mileage computer that is in a Cadillac:
> There is also a trip memory showing high speed and distance
> travelled for each day, and a depressing gas mileage computer, in a
> center-mounted console.
Perhaps the aftermarket computers were infringing on patents
that the automakers decided to enforce, since the time of their
disappearance roughly coincides with the time that they came into
use on some luxury cars. Or, more likely, the market for them dried
up as people ditched their economy cars and purchased SUVs.
...JB
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