EV Digest 4476
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Netgain Vs ADC, More Comments
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Netgain Vs ADC, More Comments
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Netgain Vs ADC, 11" netgain
by john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: State of Charge calculations
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Netgain Vs ADC, More Comments
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6)
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Engine Generator Question
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: engine Generator question.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Engine Generator Question
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Netgain Vs ADC, 11" netgain
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Netgain Vs ADC, 11" netgain
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) unsubscribe
by "Eric Lambert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: engine Generator question.
by toltec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Remove me from the list
by Ivan Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Very OT Re: Engine Generator Question
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) How to Un-subscribe from the EVDL
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) : Netgain , 11" sighting
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: A Diesel/Electric car possibility
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Idea for a high current interrupr device
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Very OT Re: Engine Generator Question
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Almost Submerged the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor!
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Yes, to the higher ahrs of a larger, heavier, bulkier Trojan wet cell, but
even this is
only if you keep the amp draw at very low levels. Take the BIG amps out of
them like you
can do with an Optima, and that ahr advantage evaporates to where you get
more from the
same weight in Optimas, than you'll ever get out of Trojans. These
comments also apply to
the other two big names in high power AGMs, like Hawker and Exide Orbital.
Saying an
last me a long time. In this application, they are a better choice over an
AGM
See Ya.....John Wayland
Honestly I was looking at the amphour ratings. There seems to be a lot of
different yellow tops available. When you see 100+ah on a flooded battery
it is easy to get a false sense of power I suppose. The optima website
shows 40-50ah
I will say the idea of not having a mess or hydrogen gas is a plus. I will
have to access my battery box capacity and make sure I have room for 12 of
whatever I am using in the back. I can fit a square box with about 35" on
each side under the hatch. I won't have a lot of room under the hood for
more batteries once the motor and the original accessory mount (from the
ICE) for the power steering, A/C etc. is reinstalled on the motor platform.
You are right. I don't want to limit myself to 400 amps if I am using a
1000amp capable controller either.
BTW.. Blue Meanie is a fantastic vehicle! I was looking at the information
on the web.
Mark
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Hello Mark and All,
Mark Ward wrote:
>
> Honestly I was looking at the amphour ratings. There seems to be a lot of
> different yellow tops available. When you see 100+ah on a flooded battery
> it is easy to get a false sense of power I suppose. The optima website
> shows 40-50ah
Yes, it is easy to get a false impression of power, and the reason I like to
respond to
posts like yours. Some, who evidently don't know me as well as they think they
do, think I
hate flooded batteries...not true. I 'do' prefer good, solid, powerful AGMs,
but only if
they fit the application intended.
Mark wrote:
>The problem I see with the Optimas is they don't have the current or amp hour
>rating of
>some of the Trojans...
....I needed to correct that notion.
>
> You are right. I don't want to limit myself to 400 amps if I am using a
> 1000amp capable controller either.
On the plus side of this....you can still limit your battery pack's current to
400 amps,
and still have the Zilla jam 1000 into the drive motor, but only while the
voltage being
delivered to the motor is about half that of the pack's voltage. Once the rpm
rises and
you keep asking for full throttle, the motor current will be rolled back
towards that 400
limit of the battery pack, and this is where your acceleration will fall like a
rock. With
this setup, you can have a flooded fed EV that has snappy off-the-line
performance, but
tame 0-60 performance and weak hill climbing ability....not so bad, but not
nearly what
you can get with a higher voltage pack of AGMs.
> BTW.. Blue Meanie is a fantastic vehicle! I was looking at the information
> on the web.
Thanks, but realize that its capabilities aren't for everyone. Yes, it has very
strong
acceleration and top speed performance, yes, it's way fun and has lots of toys,
but it
'is' a short range EV who's range per charge might not work for many folks. For
me, with
an Insight to handle my long range driving needs while using minimal gas and
running
pretty clean emissions wise, Blue Meanie is close to being perfect. The
on-board PFC
charger that can bring the pack back up in 45 minutes has made that short range
much more
useful, too. Would I like more range? Oh yeah, but I'm not willing to put in an
1100 lb.
pack of lead, and I'm not ready to take the plunge into LiIon territory at the
high cost
that comes with it, and its limited power delivery...compared to what I'm used
to :-) The
day a 400-600 lb. $3000 pack of LiIons comes my way that can give 1000 amps of
current and
around 100 miles range, I'll throw those AGMs out as fast as I can. Right now,
such a pack
would be in the $30,000 area...too much for me!
See Ya.....John Wayland
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For our 1980 scirocco drag racer conversion, how well would a 11" netgain motor
work? We're going to be using 48 svr-14 lead acid batteries, which should be
around 192 volts with the voltage drop at 900 amps per battery, we're using
these in 24 battery bank pairs. The motor is rated at 192 volts, but will it
be able to handle 1800 amps of current, or would this be too much for it? From
what we're thinking, if it could handle this power and convert it to the
wheels, we would be at about 300+ HP. Does this sound about right? We were
going to use the 9" motor, but its not going to help us meet our goal of a 12
second 1/4 mile timeslip.
John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Hello Mark and All,
Mark Ward wrote:
>
> Honestly I was looking at the amphour ratings. There seems to be a lot of
> different yellow tops available. When you see 100+ah on a flooded battery
> it is easy to get a false sense of power I suppose. The optima website
> shows 40-50ah
Yes, it is easy to get a false impression of power, and the reason I like to
respond to
posts like yours. Some, who evidently don't know me as well as they think they
do, think I
hate flooded batteries...not true. I 'do' prefer good, solid, powerful AGMs,
but only if
they fit the application intended.
Mark wrote:
>The problem I see with the Optimas is they don't have the current or amp hour
>rating of
>some of the Trojans...
....I needed to correct that notion.
>
> You are right. I don't want to limit myself to 400 amps if I am using a
> 1000amp capable controller either.
On the plus side of this....you can still limit your battery pack's current to
400 amps,
and still have the Zilla jam 1000 into the drive motor, but only while the
voltage being
delivered to the motor is about half that of the pack's voltage. Once the rpm
rises and
you keep asking for full throttle, the motor current will be rolled back
towards that 400
limit of the battery pack, and this is where your acceleration will fall like a
rock. With
this setup, you can have a flooded fed EV that has snappy off-the-line
performance, but
tame 0-60 performance and weak hill climbing ability....not so bad, but not
nearly what
you can get with a higher voltage pack of AGMs.
> BTW.. Blue Meanie is a fantastic vehicle! I was looking at the information
> on the web.
Thanks, but realize that its capabilities aren't for everyone. Yes, it has very
strong
acceleration and top speed performance, yes, it's way fun and has lots of toys,
but it
'is' a short range EV who's range per charge might not work for many folks. For
me, with
an Insight to handle my long range driving needs while using minimal gas and
running
pretty clean emissions wise, Blue Meanie is close to being perfect. The
on-board PFC
charger that can bring the pack back up in 45 minutes has made that short range
much more
useful, too. Would I like more range? Oh yeah, but I'm not willing to put in an
1100 lb.
pack of lead, and I'm not ready to take the plunge into LiIon territory at the
high cost
that comes with it, and its limited power delivery...compared to what I'm used
to :-) The
day a 400-600 lb. $3000 pack of LiIons comes my way that can give 1000 amps of
current and
around 100 miles range, I'll throw those AGMs out as fast as I can. Right now,
such a pack
would be in the $30,000 area...too much for me!
See Ya.....John Wayland
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Talk about an efficient EV!!! (powered by a
hydrogen fuel cell).
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/07/04/eco.car/index.html
"On Thursday, the BOC Ech2o will be put to the test in
a bid to smash the world fuel efficiency record of
over 10,000 miles per gallon at the Shell Eco Marathon
at the Rockingham Raceway track in the UK."
and get this, I think Tilley was the reporter on this
article
" An eco-car that can travel the world using a
fraction of the electricity it takes to power a light
bulb, "
Rod
P.S. I guess reporters are no longer required to take
basic science classes.
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--- Begin Message ---
Mark Ward wrote:
> I will say the idea of not having a mess or hydrogen gas is a plus
You might look into these lower cost AGM's:
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopexd.asp?id=5448&catid=342&cat=Deka+INTIMIDATOR&subcat=474&L2=&L3=
They make a model that weighs slightly less since it doesn't have side
terminals(maybe costs a bit less too?)
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/1143.pdf
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/
--- End Message ---
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set ev mail
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--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:37:42 -0700, Marvin Campbell
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It's also good to have a really light power source.
>I've always wondered if one of these folks radial diesel aircraft engines
>woudn't be good for hybrid or range extending hybrid trailer applications:
>
>http://www.zoche.de/
Well, first off, the engine is vaporware. I guess it could generate
vapor electricity....
If it ever does come to market, the FAQ says that it will cost about
the same as a gas engine. One should expect >$20k if that is the
case. The FAQ further states that they will not sell non-certified
engines for non-aviation applications. So much for that theory.
>
>Small, light, and aircraft engines are optimized to run at constant rpm for
>extended periods of time.
Actually, they're not. It is typical for a small aviation engine to
require overhaul every 2000 hours. That may be a lot of flying time
but it is not a lot of run time. As their FAQ notes, the cost of an
overhaul may approach the cost of the engine itself.
Aviation engines are designed for light weight and reliability.
Everything else is secondary. They are also designed to operate in a
cooling air stream. Exactly the wrong application for a generator.
Motorcycle engines are designed to operate reliably at mostly part
throttle. The life of a motorcycle engine is measured in tens of
hours at full throttle, as anyone who has seriously raced one knows.
Unless one plans to use only a fraction of the available power from
such an engine, requiring significant re-engineering of the valvetrain
and intake, it is a very poor choice for a generator prime mover,
T-zero's little proof of concept notwithstanding.
Industrial engines are so named because they ARE designed to run at
full output for thousands of hours. An appropriately sized industrial
engine, preferably water cooled, is the best engine for a generator
that runs nearly fully loaded.
A second best engine is a small automotive engine if run at part
output. A Geo Metro 3 cylinder engine is a nice choice for up to
about 10 kw. It can reliably produce up to perhaps 20 HP for an
extended period of time. It should be run at as low an RPM as
possible for the power required.
BTW, the Mikuni carb is pretty lousy for economy operation. The fixed
ratio metering rod has no air density compensation. Part throttle
operation is at best, a compromise. The CV (constant velocity) carb,
of which Kehin and Mikuni both make, IS a good choice if one is
willing to tune all parameters for economy. Having done this once, I
don't think I'd want to do it again. I'd much rather spend the time
and money on a simple EFI such as the MegaSquirt. Trivially easy to
tune.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:27:32 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>However, most small generators are considerably less efficient. They are
>designed to be cheap, not efficient. Most are ancient low-compression
>flathead designs with carburetors and fixed spark advance that have
>hardly changed since the days of the Ford model A.
You ought to get out more, Lee. Other than the junk generators sold
at the home improvement stores, I really can't think of a modern
generator that is not at least overhead valve. Many are overhead cam.
All use electronic ignition with the advance curve being built in. It
is usually just a one or two step 'curve' but that's more than
adequate for an engine that runs at a constant speed. Most brand name
generators achieve remarkable fuel economies.
Many of the better ones (Honda, Yamaha, Generac) are now inverter
generators where the engine runs at a variable speed and drives a 60
hz inverter. These generators achieve truly remarkable fuel economy.
Honda's inverter line starts at 350 watts and goes to 2800. Yamaha is
similar. Generac makes a 3800 watt RV inverter genny. I have one and
love it. The generator head only weighs about 100 lbs.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two stroke Diesels need a scavenger blower that needs to be run off the
cam or crankshaft (or Driven separately). This may be the reason they
are not offered in small sizes. They are not supposed to be as efficient
as 4 strokers. This is denied by adherents of 2 strokers. You get more
kW per kg of engine mass. No lube in fuel needed. They are not like SI
two strokes. Try a search engine. (pardon the pun). You may find a
virtual model 2 stroke to observe the cycle.
David Sharpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 5 July 2005 2:39 AM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Re: Engine Generator Question
<<<<
It's also good to have a really light power source.
I've always wondered if one of these folks radial diesel aircraft
engines
woudn't be good for hybrid or range extending hybrid trailer
applications:
http://www.zoche.de/
Small, light, and aircraft engines are optimized to run at constant rpm
for
extended periods of time.
MarvyMarv
>>>>
Along similar lines (and to get this in before we veer totally OT), why
aren't
2-stroke diesels used more? Other than a few big ones in buses and
trucks, I've
never seen any in the 20hp-or-less range. Are 2-stroke diesels worse
than
4-strokes in the same way gasoline 2-strokes are worse than gas
4-strokes (high
speed/low torque, bad for the air, and needing added lube in the fuel)?
--- End Message ---
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john bart wrote:
We're going to be using 48 svr-14 lead acid batteries, which should be
around 192 volts with the voltage drop at 900 amps per battery, we're using
these in 24 battery bank pairs.
AFAIK all the NEDRA folks who have tried these batteries have experienced
some type of failure and have chosen another option.
Specifically, I remember Bill Dube' blowed up a few of them at Woodburn '02.
I believe there are some photos of the carnage here-
http://megawattmotorworks.com/photos.asp?album=woodburn%202003
They were also used in the Silver Bullet, and IIRC, they also experienced
interconnect failures.
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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Hello John and All,
john bart wrote:
> For our 1980 scirocco drag racer conversion.....We're going to be using 48
> svr-14 lead acid batteries, which should be around 192 volts with the voltage
> drop at 900 amps per battery, we're using these in 24 battery bank pairs.
I think you're off on the voltage drop of that model SVR. At 900 amps per
battery, each
SVR-14 will sag to about 6.5V before they get hot enough to where it might only
drop to,
say 7 volts per battery, but I'd count on 6.5V per battery at 900 amps. For
comparison
sake, the 16 ahr Hawker Genesis batteries I used to use, which are in my
opinion stouter
than the SVR -14 models, sagged to 6.9V per battery with only a 750 amp draw.
So, each
string of your SVRs at 288V nominal, will sag to 156V under that 900 amp draw,
or the same
156V at 1800 amps for the entire pack....that' still a lot of power, as in 280
kw!
> How well would a 11" netgain motor work? The motor is rated at 192 volts,
> but will it be able to handle 1800 amps of current, or would this be too much
> for it? From what we're thinking, if it could handle this power and convert
> it to the wheels, we would be at about 300+ HP. Does this sound about right?
No, sounds too high. Let's say it gave you 70% efficiency at that high of
current
potential (doubtful, but let's try this figure out)....70% of 280 kw, is 196 kw
of power,
or divided by 746 w, this is 262 hp. The truth is, you're probably going to get
60%
efficiency at such high current...60% of 280 kw, is 168 kw of power, or divided
by 746 w,
this is 225 hp. In electric motor terms and from what I've learned at the
track, that's
still a lot of power! If you can keep the vehicle weight down to say, 2000
lbs., then a
high 12 is possible.
> We were going to use the 9" motor, but its not going to help us meet our goal
> of a 12 second 1/4 mile timeslip.
I still think you could do it with a single 9 inch motor, but only if it had
variable
timing and the same 2000 lb. weight limit.
The 11 inch NetGain motor 'was' something very similar to the prototype 11 inch
Kostov
that Warfield helped me modify to my specs, back when I was a member of
NetGain. That
tweaked 11 inch Kosty in White Zombie, when it weighed just 1995 lbs. and with
the
advantage of rear wheel drive, ran a best ET of 13.1 seconds @ 99 mph....pretty
darn close
to a high 12, and, reinforcing my belief that in order to run 12s using the
NetGain 11
incher and those SVRs as you've described, your car needs to weigh close to
2000 lbs. The
fact that you have 1800 amps on tap and a more powerful battery pack than what
I was
running back then, is a big advantage.
The disadvantage, is that I don't think your Scirocco, a car in its earliest
model year is
still about 300 lbs. heavier than a Datsun 1200 sedan, and with a battery pack
that's
about 350 lbs. heavier than my single string of 13.5 lb. batteries was, can get
close to
that 2000 lbs. I've suggested. My hunch, is that your race prepped Scirocco
will weigh
around 2500 lbs. With the pack you've chosen, with the amps you've got planned,
and with a
good strong electric motor, and, with the front drive traction issue addressed,
if you
don't vaporizes the tranny, you're looking at a 13.5 - 13.7 second ET with a
trap speed of
maybe 96 mph.
In my book, that's damn fast, damn quick, and very impressive. If you want 12's
out of
that car, you need to either make more power, or, get the curb weight down to
1800 lbs. or so.
The current 348V version of White Zombie has a 696 lb. pack of 29 ahr Hawker
Aerobatteries
that should be able to give 1600 amps with the pack sagged to about 9V per
battery...this
gives 417 kw, that's 560 hp at the battery pack. I'm thinking that 330 hp at
the motor is realistic.
With the car now at a lower weight of around 2250 lbs., with the new Siamese 8
motor, and
with a Zilla Z2K UHV to keep the motor loop current in the 2000 amp range most
of the
time, I'm hoping to see mid to low 12s @ 107-110 mph. At nearly 300 lbs.
lighter than when
the car ran a 1.899 60 ft. time, and with 2000 amps for the motor at launch
instead of the
1400 amps it had doing that same 1.899 60 ft. time, I'm looking to run a sub
1.8 second 60
ft. time, in like a 1.79...we'll have to wait and see on this. I'm also
thinking, that if
it all works as planned, White Zombie will also run the 1/8th mile in under 8
seconds,
which would be a first for a street legal door slammer. At 2550 lbs., 240V, and
a 1400 amp
controller with the Afterburner bypass, it ran an 8.236 @ 84.37 mph. I'd love
to see a
7.95 @ 86 mph 1/8 mile!
I'm excited about your drag car and am rooting for you to break into the 12s,
but you need
to get its weight down, hook up off the line, keep the tranny in one piece, and
have a
pretty efficient motor to make the most of your battery power....or use a more
powerful battery
pack without gaining weight.
See Ya......John Wayland
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unsubscribe
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Assuming that we have a 1,000 lb EV and we wish to augment the
batteries with an ICE/generator, is there anything out there
that would generate 10KW and burn less than 1 gallon per hour?
Sure. The power plants in the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight are more
efficient than this. Driving at 60 mph and getting 60 mpg means you are
burning 1 gal. per hour. These cars use around 250 watthours per mile;
at 60 mph that's 60 x 0.25 = 20 KWH. So they can generate 20 KWH from 1
gallon of gasoline.
I know I keep harping on this, but the RotaPower (at
http://www.freedom-motors.com/ - [standard "I'm not affiliated"
disclaimer]) advanced wankle engines seem ideally suited for an on-board
genny... small, high power/weight ratio, few moving parts, multiple
fuels, pretty efficient, and relatively clean
they've begun limited production, from what I understand (so it's not
just vaporware), and are looking at the genny market
for example, a relevant quote from their website:
"The Company is working with Boeing-Rocketdyne to develop a small,
high-speed, fuel-efficient, diesel-fueled Rotapower engine to power a
portable (5 kilowatt) generator. Boeing is soliciting a contract from
the Army on behalf of itself and the Company to provide a large number
of these Rotapowered generators."
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Remove me from the list
Ivan Workman
____________________________________________________
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Hi John amd All,
I wasn't going to answer but there was such
bad mistakes here I had to.
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Motorcycle engines are designed to operate reliably
> at mostly part
> throttle. The life of a motorcycle engine is
Not the MC's I've driven!!!!
A MC is a very high drag vehicle so any engine
unless greatly overpowered, runs at a fairly high % of
peak power, especially in the sizes we are talking
about 150-300cc-10/25hp, that must put out full power
to get any speed at all on the highway. Most will
easily hold their top speed for hrs at a time and last
many yrs.
This high drag is why EV MC's have very little
range!!!
A MC takes much more power to go 65mph, 20-30hp,
than a car does at 12-20hp!!!! YMMV
So saying a MC will only run reliably at 20% is
just plain wrong. Basic physics!!
> measured in tens of
> hours at full throttle, as anyone who has seriously
> raced one knows.
But these racing engines are putting out twice or
more their rated power and several 1,000 rpms above
their rated redline, so what do you expect? Car
engines done the same also die early. Very bad
example!
>
> Industrial engines are so named because they ARE
> designed to run at
> full output for thousands of hours. An
Only some of them. Many, including Honda's, are
100hr engines!!! Read the fine print!!
> appropriately sized industrial
> engine, preferably water cooled, is the best engine
> for a generator
> that runs nearly fully loaded.
But they can be made to run much more eff with
mods like higher compression, better carb, ign
advance.
Even the newer OHV ones rarely have these though
they are lightyears ahead of the old flat head
designs.
Since the MC engines already have these mods
stock, they are much more eff than industrial motors
usually and a lot lighter.
4 stroke jet ski motors are another example of
motors that run at 90-100% of their rated power that
would be good for gen use.
>
> A second best engine is a small automotive engine if
> run at part
> output. A Geo Metro 3 cylinder engine is a nice
> choice for up to
> about 10 kw. It can reliably produce up to perhaps
> 20 HP for an
> extended period of time. It should be run at as low
It's in Suzuki's too as they make it and the Metro
for Geo/GM.
Again you are wrong as these have made very good
aircraft engines running at 90% power for hrs at a
time. So easily possible to get 45-50hp cont from it
and 60hp+ cont for the turbo version and still have
long life.
A very nice engine at 100 lbs especially for running
at 3600rpm for 20kw or 5,000rpm for 30/35kw. More with
turbo. They would be great for a fast charger at race
tracks, ect.
I'm thinking seriously on eventually running an
EV RV hybrid with one patterned off the Dymaxion car.
Possibly getting 50 mpg in an RV long distance or 50
mile range as an EV around town.
> an RPM as
> possible for the power required.
True for lowest internal friction for the power
needed. It's a very good low friction, high eff, low
polluting engine with fuel injection and you can get
conversion parts from the aircraft industry to make it
run without a car computer, hookups. I'd probably use
a Webber carb for it to lose the electronics and still
keep eff.
>
> BTW, the Mikuni carb is pretty lousy for economy
> operation. The fixed
> ratio metering rod has no air density compensation.
Neither do most carbs but who really needs it as
few change alt much enough to matter.
> Part throttle
> operation is at best, a compromise. The CV
> (constant velocity) carb,
> of which Kehin and Mikuni both make, IS a good
Most any carb is easily set for constant speed,
power operation. It's variable speed that's hard. I
believe the CV carb is what I was talking about.
> choice if one is
> willing to tune all parameters for economy. Having
> done this once, I
> don't think I'd want to do it again. I'd much
> rather spend the time
> and money on a simple EFI such as the MegaSquirt.
> Trivially easy to
> tune.
I'll check that out. But Mukini's are free!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
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'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "john bart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For our 1980 scirocco drag racer conversion, how well would a 11" netgain
motor work?
I just happened to have one of the new 11" netgain motors at my shop right
now , here 's a picture of it sitting next to a 9" , makes the 9" look small
.
http://www.grassrootsev.com/motor.htm
This motor along with a hv 2k zilla is heading over to the west coast , of
Florida :-) Naples ,
We're going to be using 48 svr-14 lead acid batteries, which should be
around 192 volts with the voltage drop at 900 amps per battery, we're
using these in 24 >battery bank pairs. The motor is rated at 192 volts,
but will it be able to handle 1800 amps of current, or would this be too
much for it?
very close to what is planned for this one . hope to hear what others say .
It has the same number of poles as the 9 . counted them and then forgot the
number but they where the same , so this should behave different that the
kostove which had more poles than the 9 and seemed to need more voltage to
wake up.
steve clunn
From what we're thinking, if it could handle this power and convert it to
the wheels, we would be at about 300+ HP. Does this sound about right? We
were going to use the 9" motor, but its not going to help us meet our goal
of a 12 second 1/4 mile timeslip.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Jun 2005 at 7:35, Roland Wiench wrote:
> In comparison test between a ICE and the EV with the same weight, the ICE
> would get 17 mpg while the EV would get 25 mpg. The engine driving the
> generator, was set at a constant 3600 RPM which than can be tuned for the
> maximum efficiency at that RPM.
I would like to see a comparable test today. I suspect that computer
controlled ICEs with such tricks as variable valve timing, directly coupled
to the drive train, would mimic most or all of the advantage of a constant
speed ICE thirty years ago. Add some further drivetrain tricks like Toyota
uses on the Prius, and the train-style electric transmission will be hard
pressed to compete.
For another datapoint, I seem to recall that Cocconi's Honda Civic with its
genset trailer returned something like 35 mpg on the highway. My Honda
Civic VX got 48 to 50 mpg in comparable driving.
Unless insurance and / or storage are issues for you, IMO the best strategy
is to own an EV for short trips and an ICE for long trips. It's best not to
combine them. Mixing the drive systems inevitably makes for greater
complexity and reduced efficiency.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:30:39 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> djsharpe wrote:
>>
>>>The postings I have read recently have given me an idea for a compact
>>>emergency current interrupt device. The arc interrupt device would be
>>>
>>>
>>
>> My idea was always just a spring or explosive (blank shotgun shell)
>> driven cutter that slices a 1 foot length of welding cable in half. The
>> cable could be easily replaced trackside and the system reprimed.
>>
>
>Why not just use a solid removeable section. I.e. use a long fuse holder
>with a copper pipe in place of the fuse. To interupt power use your
>spring loaded device to flick the pipe out of it's holder.
>
That was one of my suggestions the last time this topic got beaten to
death, about 6 months ago. I'd prefer a hunk of bus bar inserted into
a blade-type fuse mount. These can handle much more current than the
circular clip type. Blade fuse clips are available in ratings of
thousands of amps continuous.
Much better than a spring is a simple shaft with a pedal on the other
end that the driver stomps to interrupt the circuit. The shaft passes
through the firewall to the interrupter located on the other side.
Simple, cheap and completely fail-safe.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:01:15 -0700 (PDT), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi John amd All,
> I wasn't going to answer but there was such
>bad mistakes here I had to.
>
>--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Motorcycle engines are designed to operate reliably
>> at mostly part
>> throttle. The life of a motorcycle engine is
>
> Not the MC's I've driven!!!!
> A MC is a very high drag vehicle so any engine
>unless greatly overpowered, runs at a fairly high % of
>peak power, especially in the sizes we are talking
>about 150-300cc-10/25hp, that must put out full power
>to get any speed at all on the highway. Most will
>easily hold their top speed for hrs at a time and last
>many yrs.
OK, Jerry, whatever you say. I've been turning the wrenches on racing
motorcycles since 1969 and have a few titles to my name (Daytona 100cc
class 1972, 125 class 1973, wrenched for Dale Singleton until he
turned pro and so on) and I still wrench for a friend who runs the AMA
SuperStock circuit. I'm fairly familiar with motorcycle engines.
Here's a specific datapoint. I consulted to the Rutgers U FSAE team
in about 1992, specifically to assist with the design of the EFI
system and to tune the engine. We chose a Kaw 600 engine. One of the
tests we performed was to run an engine life test on the dyno. We
somewhat arbitrarily assigned end of life as 25% down on power and oil
consumption of an ounce an hour. We saw just a little over 200 hours.
I can probably find the exact number in my notes if that really
matters. Obviously, even double that time is a pittance for a
road-going vehicle.
If you ever have the opportunity to hook a data acquisition system to
a bike you'll see as I have, that the engine actually spends very
little time at WOT, even on the track. The rider does demand high
power but except for long straights at tracks like Daytona, most of
the time the power is feathered.
This doesn't matter as much as one might think. I have an SAE paper
here somewhere where the author develops a model to predict engine
life. The most significant input variable is total number of
revolutions. A racing engine's life isn't that much shorter than an
industrial engine in terms of total revolutions. In terms of time,
vastly shorter, of course. On the engines I've wrenched over the past
10 or 15 years, I've tracked total revs and base maintenance on that
parameter.
Your proposed 150-300 cc engine simply will not do the job for more
than a few hours, probably less than 500. I base this estimate on
decades of racing engine experience. Of course, you're free to try to
prove me wrong!
A 1 liter engine running at a reduced speed and producing maybe 15-20
HP MIGHT be a decent prime mover. I have a hunch that even without
the gearbox, such an engine would have little if any weight advantage
over an industrial engine and would be far more expensive. Unless one
happened to find one at a fire sale price, I'm not sure why anyone
would want to risk the money when an industrial engine is known to
have the durability.
> This high drag is why EV MC's have very little
>range!!!
> A MC takes much more power to go 65mph, 20-30hp,
>than a car does at 12-20hp!!!! YMMV
Actually the power requirements are similar, as indicated by similar
fuel consumption figures. My late 80s model full dress GoldWing
(before they turned it into a 2 wheeled car) got about 35mpg. About
the same as my beetle. My old 500cc yamaha street bike ran about
45mpg. Similar to small economy cars. No magic here.
>> Industrial engines are so named because they ARE
>> designed to run at
>> full output for thousands of hours. An
>
> Only some of them. Many, including Honda's, are
>100hr engines!!! Read the fine print!!
yeah, they call those engines consumer grade. Seeing as how my
company manufactured a commercial version of my CBC, you can imagine
that I spent quite a bit of time "reading the fine print." Actually I
spent more time working with application engineers from Honda. I have
some mule engines here which have been severely abused during lifetime
testing. I have yet to blow one so I don't know what the outer limit
is.
The black shroud (GC type) Honda is the consumer grade. One piece
head, block and crankcase. Overhead cam driven by a fabric timing
belt. It's initial rated life was 200 hours but it has greatly
exceeded that rating. I have over 1500 hours on one engine that still
produces rated power and who's oil consumption is below an ounce every
10 hours.
The red shroud (GX type) Honda is the industrial grade engine. My
memory is fuzzy on the rated life (I'm thinking 4000 hours but I might
be thinking of another engine) but it is far more than is likely to be
needed for an EV range extender. Especially if one runs the engine at
less than rated speed.
Water cooled gasoline engines go as high as 10,000 hours. Diesels
even more.
Part of the R&D I performed during the CBC development was human
factors-related. I was specifically interested in whether a slightly
non-synchronous speed might generate a less annoying sound than at
1800 or 3600. My theory was that so many things in everyday life
generate 60hz and harmonics sound that people may be sensitized to
those frequencies. The competing theory is that people are
DE-sensitized.
I did some testing that consisted of setting up a booth at several car
shows and flagging people in for their opinions. "in the box" was a
small well muffled engine set to run at either 3600 RPM or 3400,
depending on the flip of a switch. I asked each listener to rate the
annoyance level on a 5 point scale. An overwhelming majority found
the 3400 RPM engine to be less annoying even though the sound pressure
level was within a db of the 3600 RPM one.
While not an absolute proof of my first theory, it is something to
consider when designing a generator. All of my subsequent designs
have involved running the engine at a non-sync speed, designs that
garner frequent comments about how quiet the things are.
If I were to design a range extender today on a typical private
individual's budget, I'd go one of two routes.
In the sub-4kw range I'd buy a power head from Generac for their
Impact line of inverter generators. They sell the power head for OEM
applications. This power head consists of a single cylinder
Generac/Briggs industrial grade engine with a 3 phase high frequency
PM alternator integrated into the flywheel. It generates up to 700
volts and up to 4kw at 4,000 RPM. In the original 60 hz RV generator
application, there is an outboard inverter that PWM's the 60 hz sine
wave output. The control board operates a stepper connected to the
throttle to run the engine at whatever speed is necessary to supply
the demand. Internals photos are on my web site.
One can dispense with the inverter and go directly to DC for an EV
application. Synchronous rectification/PWM would be the simplest
method of control. This power head would be suitable for even high
voltage AC motor battery charging/range extension applications.
If the application involved more power than this power head can
produce then I'd use a Geo Metro engine for a gas application or a
small diesel engine for a diesel fuel app. The chinese clones of the
Robin and Perkins engines are getting good reviews.
The 3 cylinder Metro engine is one of the lightest water cooled
engines available. It is quiet and reliable and makes enough power
for at least 10kw at about 2200 RPM.
I've designed and built a 10kw generator for a customer using this
engine and a 10kw 2 pole aluminum frame self-excited, Italian made
generator, the same brand that Northern and Harbor Freight sell. I
geared the engine (timing belt) to run at 2200 RPM and used an SU type
CV carburetor to replace the EFI. A PLOOF belt-driven governor
rounded out the ensemble. If I built another one I'd keep the EFI and
use a MegaSquirt controller.
I have also built for myself another 10kw generator using the same
alternator and a Deutz 2 cylinder air cooled diesel engine rated at 27
hp at 3600 RPM. I geared this engine to run at 2800 RPM, the lowest
speed it could supply full output to the alternator. This unit is
mounted on two wheels, hand-truck-style and is easily portable by one
person. I use this generator with my concession stand (total load of
about 7kw) and use less than 5 gallons in a long day.
I could cut considerable weight in a DC application by direct mounting
a PM multi-phase alternator. This is basically a BLDC motor driven as
a generator. Frameless (bare stator and rotor) motors are available
from several vendors at very reasonable prices. Mount the rotor to
the shaft and make an adapter to mount the stator directly to the
crankcase. It can be motored with a BLDC controller for cranking.
With the elimination of the crank-driven accessories, such a generator
could be brought in easily at under 200 lbs and maybe under 175. It
would run for thousands of hours and if the EFI was retained, achieve
spectacular BSFC numbers.
This is doable today with stuff off the shelf and out of the junkyard
for a very modest cost. Certainly less than $2k, perhaps half that
with some very good scrounging.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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--- Begin Message ---
Yikes! Now I know why the Elec-Trak has a deadman switch on the seat.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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