EV Digest 6434
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Copper buss bars...
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Copper buss bars...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: First post
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV digest 6433
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by "D3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag of
the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's on the
roof?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag of
the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's on the
roof?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Copper buss bars...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) EV reality (was: EV digest 6432)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Kenneth Dove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV digest 6432
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag
of the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of
pv's on the roof?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV digest 6431
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.greenseal.org/resources/reports/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pdf
LRR tire list.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
>
>
> Wow! That's some fat rubber!
>
> I don't know if there is a formula, but in theory the less contact there
is
> with the road the less friction you have to overcome. On my Saturn
conversion
> I focused a lot on reducing losses in the wheels. The car had some no-name
> 195 width tires on it, which I think was the stock tire size. I ended up
putting
> a 185/60R15 Goodyear Integrity tire on it. These are "fuel efficient" as
they
> say on the web site. I have no rolling resistance numbers for them but
they are
> used on a lot of OEM vehicles. Between going a little skinnier and the
rolling
> resistance it made a good 10 amp improvement in current draw in the city!
>
> >From there I bought some Kosie racing wheels from Tire Rack. The 15's
only weigh
> 12.6 lbs, which is ~8 lbs a piece less than the stock Saturn alloys! This
made the
> biggest difference of all. Not only do they look good but what took 200
amps to
> accelerate now only took 150 amps to accelerate just as quickly. The car
wouln't
> roll quite as much after you took your foot of the go pedal (though I'm
sure if I
> took it up to 50 and let off the pedal it would still take a few miles
before the
> car came to a stop).
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> I'm interested in this formula as well. I have fairly large tires
> 275/60/15 - about 10 inches wide and I'm thinking about changing them
> to
> a narrower tire. Would my money be well spent here?
>
> John Grigg
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/723
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mark E. Hanson
> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:09 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
>
> Hi,
>
> Is there a formulae for tire width vs LRR? I need to buy new tires
> for my electric Porsche and there are P155, P165 and P195 options. I
> assume that the skinnier tire always wins in LRR but by what
> measureable
> percentage? Is there measureable data or a formulae for width, are we
> talking about 5% range difference (or MPG) or is it a fraction of a
> percent? When wider tires are used there's obviously a larger contact
> patch area but the pressure to the road per square inch is decreased so
> it may not be a huge percentage.
>
> Best Regards,
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
> in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:36 AM 2/16/2007, you wrote:
Hi everyone,
I am in the process of wiring up my truck (120v
system, 9" Kostov) and I've decided that I want to use
copper buss bars instead of 2/0 and lugs for some of
the shorter connections.
I was just wondering, what size copper do I need to
use for this? I was thinking something along the lines
of 1/16" or 3/32" by 1". Does that make sense?
The other thing is, where do I find copper? I was
thinking about flattening some pipe, but the only pipe
I can find is thin-wall. Any thoughts on where I could
find thick-wall tubing?
Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Andrew
Go to a local sheet metal shop or heating and A/C contractor and have
them shear 1/16" thick copper sheett into 1" wide strips. Drill your
connecting bolt holes about 1/2" in from the ends and insulate the
center portion with 3/4" heat shrink tube about 2" shorter than the
copper strap.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are in the Bay Area(California) Allen Steel in Redwood City has
everything you need. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:36 AM
Subject: Copper buss bars...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am in the process of wiring up my truck (120v
> system, 9" Kostov) and I've decided that I want to use
> copper buss bars instead of 2/0 and lugs for some of
> the shorter connections.
>
> I was just wondering, what size copper do I need to
> use for this? I was thinking something along the lines
> of 1/16" or 3/32" by 1". Does that make sense?
>
> The other thing is, where do I find copper? I was
> thinking about flattening some pipe, but the only pipe
> I can find is thin-wall. Any thoughts on where I could
> find thick-wall tubing?
>
> Any input would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> http://new.mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Crystal,
There are alot of great resources on the web regarding bio-diesel. The
website http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html has alot of good
information. Making bio-diesel is very easy. Using it in an existing
diesel engine is no different than that of fossil fuel diesel. Does it
smell different, yes. Will your car "wreak"? No different than it does
off of fossil fuel diesel, just with a different odor. I think you'll
find bio-diesel more acceptable with respect to smell. The maintenance
cycle for your vehicle should remain basically the same. Having said
this, I think you'll find that your oil at change intervals is less
discolored and retains its viscosity a little better. Depending upon
your level of skill, bio-diesel can perform essentially the same as it's
fossil fuel counter part.
Do keep in mind there is a difference between a "waste oil" engine and a
"diesel" engine. Some will suggest the need for line heater
specifically for bio diesel, and it is true without specific quality
control measures the fuel can pose challenges. Consider the
environment(s) the fuel is to be used and make it to conform to those
conditions and you won't have any problems. My rule of thumb is that if
heaters or viscosity reducers are needed for fossil diesel, then you'll
probably need it for bio-diesel too. Otherwise bio can be made/blended
to preform just as fossil diesel.
You comment on sources charging for waste veggie oil. It isn't that
places are beginning to charge for their used cooking oil, but that
blenders/recyclers are paying for used oil. This is cutting the
individual out of the picture in larger metropolitan areas. There are
alot of rewards in making your own fuel. Anyone contemplating taking
on home recycling has to keep in mind is that one day technology and/or
competition will change, making their efforts obsolete. I believe this
will eventually happen, or our economies of state will experience
deterioration (people think this would make the bio-diesel endeavour
worth while, but there are two responses that counter this, 1) everyone
will want to make their own bio, and 2) as economies change the source
for spent oil sources will simply disappear).
As long as we have fuel below $3/gallon the small guy can participate
and make his own. As fuel costs increase you'll see the numbers of
people wanting to "make their own" increase, making waste oil sources
fewer in number, along with more commercial sources/blends becoming
available. My class did a cost analysis from their bio-diesel
experiments; with free oil you can make bio for approximately 60 cents
US a gallon (3.98L); purchasing fresh oil ($1.50 US/1.5L bottle) runs
the cost up to over $3/gallon (don't hold me to exact figures, these
numbers are off the top of my head and approximate from what I can recall).
Try a small batch to see if your interested in doing it on a larger
scale first. As you increase in scale you'll experience new challenges
(such as mixing throughly and efficiently, working with larger volumes,
storage and disposal of the byproducts). If it is too complicated or
takes too much effort on a small scale then it is probably more than you
will be willing to do on a larger scale.
Best of luck. A new bio-diesel thread has been started on
http://evmechanic.net/evchatportal/index.php I suspect there will be
some starter discussion threads posted soon. I think after you consider
the long term possibilities, electric is the only way to go. With
advances in either battery or electric motor (or both) technology the
consumer will begin to recognize the virtues of electricity over
traditional fuels.
Crystal Silver wrote:
All the stuff I've read about bio-diesel operation sounds complicated
- like having to run the diesel motor with gasoline first then turning
over to the "grease" power after the engine is warmed up, and stuff
like that...then carrying the veggie oils in the trunk and doing
filtering every time...are there instructions somewhere that make it
as simple as what you've made it sound? And will my vehicle constantly
wreak of french fries? I've also read that some places in the U.S. are
getting wind of this and are starting to charge people to take their
used grease. I'm not sure how prevalent this practice is, but sounds
like something they'd try to profit from here. Does bio diesel require
changing the oil the same as regular gasoline? Is everything else the
same as operating a regular guzzle-mobile?
I do know that diesel engines were originally designed for this
purpose, but I have never actually gone through the process of
figuring out how to implement it myself. But I did see one of Morgan
Spurlock's programs one time where they were filming at the Dancing
Rabbit eco-village (in Missouri?), and all the steps they had to go
through just to make their vehicle operate seemed a bit
counter-productive. Just getting a fill-up seemed to be an all-day
ordeal.
I am interested in hearing more about this, however, as the more
efficiently and inexpensively (and quickly) I can get up-and-running
the better.
Thanks for the info.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 17, 2007, at 10:55 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
Hi Crystal and All,
EV's cost by the pound and air drag!! So to
be blunt converting a Sprinter is not a good idea.
And you shouldn't buy a new vehicle to start
with, especially a truck to tear it apart!! Use that money
istead for marterials and/or labor to do it right.
I wasn't planning to buy one brand new; I don't have that kind of
cash lying around. I only put the specs up here for size comparison
purposes.
But it can be done in other ways though
mostly means you or someone are going to have to do some
work.
Easiest is convert an EV car and tow a
lightweight, aero trailer with a biodiesel or NG generator.
I own an A-Liner hard side folding trailer that would work
well as lightweight and low frontal area with good area for
solar panels though not as aero as you should have but would
work.
I've considered this. Still have more research to do first, though.
On your need to stand up is not really needed
but more a want. In boats we say you only need standing
headroom if you sleep standing up. Maybe check out some
boats for good interiors in small spaces.
A good aero trailer will actually improve the
aero of the tow vehicle many times because it cleans up the
flow going aft, a large source of vehicle drag. Stock cars,
bicycist use this all the time to cut fuel use or go faster.
Better would be an EV that is built from
scratch using say S10 chassis, electrical converted with a
custom very aero body on it. These are not that hard to do
and easily be worth it in the long run and will cut your EV
drive, running cost by 1/2 or more including a fairly long
range, especialy if you don't go standing headroom or just
can need it behind the rear axle where you can take the
floor down 12" or more or a pop top.
This is an interesting idea, as I tend to be picky about how I like
things, and I have lots of ideas.
Best would be use a frontwheel drive and use a
custom low flat floor chassis behind, over it. One could
take an aero trailer and put the front wheel EV drivetrain
or even a car front half inculding driver, passenger seat in
it's front to save building a body. If using say a VW Rabbit
diesel front end and use an EV drive rear axle could work
well saving much work with unlimted range. I just mix
filtered Waste Veg Oil 75% to 25% diesel without any other
mods other than extra filters. In colder times more diesel
or kerosene is needed. Even diesel needs kero when it really
gets cold.
Or you can be like me, don't laugh as it's
very doable, and build your EV from plywood/epoxy to do it
fast, strong, aero and lightweight like we do racing boats
and aircraft. I also do composites the same way but that can
take longer to learn, harder to finish. Though building one
up from bending finished flat fiberglass panels would cut
time doing a composite version.
Something to think about.
I'm eventually going to do an EV RV with a 50
mile range on batts with my generator being used for longer
stretches based somewhat on the Dymaxion car by Buckminister
Fuller or you may want to look up the Stout Scrarab for
inpiration.
But the theme here if you want to have a
successful EV RV is lightweight and aero or your costs will
soar, range tank.
If I were to do one myself though it would
only cost about $5k in materials!! But I'm good and been
building stuff for 35 yrs and very cheap, ah I mean
resourceful ;^D.
It can be done, you just need to find the
right path, an open mind You seem smart enough to do it. It
can be a vehicle you can keep the rest of your life so you
will never be without a home so can be worth the extra
upfront work easily.
Good luck,
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.powerstream.com/Ni-Prism.htm
has NiMH cells with capacities from 12 to 100 AH. How do they get around
Chevron's patent?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Lemke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
> Because Chevron Oil now owns the patent rights for NiMH batteries of the
size of 10 a/hr and larger.
>
> Bob
>
> Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why can't the EAA hire some fundraiser(s), rake in the
> cash, initialize an EV-size NIMH production facility,
> and sell to members at an affordable price? How hard
> can it be?
>
> Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When is this patent scheduled to expire and fall into "public domain"? What
negotiations or what would it cost to obtain use of this patent? Are there
not any organizations with enough financial resources to negotiate with
Chevron? Lithion-Ion will soon reduece the value of this patent anyway
(unless some large corporation locks this up, too)
Don Davidson
www.elecars.spaces.live.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
> Right but has the EAA ever tried to enter into
> discussions with Chevron over releasing the patent
> rights?
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> --- Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Because Chevron Oil now owns the patent rights for
> > NiMH batteries of the size of 10 a/hr and larger.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Why can't the EAA hire some fundraiser(s), rake in
> > the
> > cash, initialize an EV-size NIMH production
> > facility,
> > and sell to members at an affordable price? How hard
> > can it be?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > --- Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > > Ian Hooper wrote:
> > > > Interesting about the Cobasys/Chevron
> > > relationship, why am I not
> > > > surprised!?
> > > >
> > > > There are a few Chinese manufacturers of large
> > > capacity NiMHs, e.g
> > > > http://nthaiyang.en.alibaba.com/. They are
> > pretty
> > > expensive though, I
> > > > got quoted US$153ea for 1.2V, 80Ah (600A peak
> > > discharge) cells, so it's
> > > > heading towards $20K for a ~10kWh pack! Ouch.
> > > >
> > > > The option I'm currently looking at are Sub-Cs,
> > > due to their high
> > > > discharge rate (>10C). Manufacturer direct,
> > > they're about US$1.50 each
> > > > for 1.2v 3.5Ah, I'll need about 2500 of them for
> > > 10kWh. So twice the
> > > > price of the best lead acid, but half the weight
> > > and hopefully longer
> > > > cycle life. Using that many individual cells
> > seems
> > > silly, but it has
> > > > been done before, e.g the Tesla Roadster, or
> > White
> > > Lightning
> > >
> > > Lots of people are trying to use hundreds to
> > > thousands of small cells
> > > to make an EV sized battery pack. There are lots
> > of
> > > problems! Frankly,
> > > I'm pessimistic -- NO ONE has any long-term
> > > experience yet. I think it
> > > works in the short term, but will prove
> > impractical
> > > in the long run (too
> > > expensive, too unreliable). But, time will tell!
> > > --
> > > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > > Forget the perfect offering
> > > There is a crack in everything
> > > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > > --
> > > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> > > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
> > beta.
> > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, let's see if I've got these calculations down correctly.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 11:04 PM, GWMobile wrote:
How much energy does it take to make the ultra vane or the other one
everyone is talking about to go 65 or 70 mph?
You're asking about power, not energy, but never mind :) Power is
energy divided by time.
Watts and horsepower are both measurements of power. Since they're
measuring the same thing, they can be converted into each other, like
Fahrenheit and Celsius degrees of temperature.
In this case, 746 watts = 1 hp.
So to get an idea of how many watts are required to move a given
vehicle, look at the hp requirement to move the vehicle and multiply by
746.
(Note that in Europe they use kilowatts to measure the power of car
engines instead of horsepower. Makes it easier.)
The standard engine 2005 Dodge Sprinter has a 154 hp engine, according
to <http://autos.msn.com/>.
Therefore, an EV version of the Sprinter that has the same performance
as the gas version would need a powerplant that can produce 115
kilowatts.
A Zilla 1K can produce 320 kilowatts, so this is doable.
The next thing you need to worry about, of course, is energy. For how
long can you produce this power from the battery pack? This translates
into range.
Energy is power multiplied by time, so we talk about kilowatt-hours
(abbreviated Kwh). To travel for one hour at the Sprinter's top speed
will require 115 Kwh. That's pretty outrageous - let's try restricting
top speed travel to half an hour, or 57.5 Kwh.
A single US-145 battery can produce 6v at 75 amps for 154 minutes.
That's 6*75*154/60 or 1.2 Kwh.
However, that's running the battery all the way dead. It's recommended
that you don't exceed 50% discharge or you'll kill your batteries in
short order. So let's assume the battery contains .6 Kwh.
This means that you would need 57.5/.6 or 96 of these batteries. They
weigh 70 pounds apiece, so that's 6720 pounds of batteries. The
Sprinter can't carry that much weight!
These numbers are misleading, though - if your amp draw exceeds 75
amps, which it probably will since you're hauling so many pounds of
batteries, the energy you can get out the batteries will drop due to
something called Peukert's Effect. You probably should only count on
15 minutes of full-speed travel.
You should definitely not travel at full speed if you want any kind of
range at all.
So that's your starting point. You can lower power requirements by
reducing your performance requirements, but you're on your own there.
I understand that there are various pieces of software that can help
determine hp requirements for race cars - perhaps one of those could be
used to get a more precise number.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, there are a lot of erroneous assumptions in this analysis, as I'm sure
regulars here will have spotted.
Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: OK, let's see if I've got these
calculations down correctly.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 11:04 PM, GWMobile wrote:
> How much energy does it take to make the ultra vane or the other one
> everyone is talking about to go 65 or 70 mph?
You're asking about power, not energy, but never mind :) Power is
energy divided by time.
Watts and horsepower are both measurements of power. Since they're
measuring the same thing, they can be converted into each other, like
Fahrenheit and Celsius degrees of temperature.
In this case, 746 watts = 1 hp.
So to get an idea of how many watts are required to move a given
vehicle, look at the hp requirement to move the vehicle and multiply by
746.
Uh - no. This is true in theory, but not in practice.
The standard engine 2005 Dodge Sprinter has a 154 hp engine, .
Therefore, an EV version of the Sprinter that has the same performance
as the gas version would need a powerplant that can produce 115
kilowatts.
>>>>>Not really. ICE's are "peaky". An electric motor can achieve "the same
>>>>>performance" in practice with a lower rating, because of greater torque
>>>>>and a flatter power curve.
A Zilla 1K can produce 320 kilowatts, so this is doable.
The next thing you need to worry about, of course, is energy. For how
long can you produce this power from the battery pack? This translates
into range.
Energy is power multiplied by time, so we talk about kilowatt-hours
(abbreviated Kwh). To travel for one hour at the Sprinter's top speed
will require 115 Kwh. That's pretty outrageous - let's try restricting
top speed travel to half an hour, or 57.5 Kwh.
>>>>>>Well, I don't know where "the Sprinter's top speed" came from, but
>>>>>>maintaining speed at 65 or 70 mph will take less than 115Kw - probably
>>>>>>less than half that much.
A single US-145 battery can produce 6v at 75 amps for 154 minutes.
That's 6*75*154/60 or 1.2 Kwh.
However, that's running the battery all the way dead. It's recommended
that you don't exceed 50% discharge or you'll kill your batteries in
short order. So let's assume the battery contains .6 Kwh.
This means that you would need 57.5/.6 or 96 of these batteries. They
weigh 70 pounds apiece, so that's 6720 pounds of batteries. The
Sprinter can't carry that much weight!
These numbers are misleading, though - if your amp draw exceeds 75
amps, which it probably will since you're hauling so many pounds of
batteries, the energy you can get out the batteries will drop due to
something called Peukert's Effect. You probably should only count on
15 minutes of full-speed travel.
>>>>>Practical experience (the late Red Beastie -
>>>>>http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/037.html ) has shown that freeway speed in
>>>>>an unaerodynamic vehicle can be maintained for an hour with less than half
>>>>>that weight in batteries.
You should definitely not travel at full speed if you want any kind of
range at all.
So that's your starting point. You can lower power requirements by
reducing your performance requirements, but you're on your own there.
I understand that there are various pieces of software that can help
determine hp requirements for race cars - perhaps one of those could be
used to get a more precise number.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
---------------------------------
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
Just for the record, this is not the way air brakes work. Only the
emergency/parking brake is applied by a spring being held back by
air. The service brakes use air pressure to apply the brakes just
like cars use hydraulic fluid. In the event of an air loss so the
service brakes are useless (just like breaking a brake line in a
car), the spring is released and applies the emergency brakes. They
are either full on or full off. The spring brake can also be
applied by hand during an emergency or for parking.
Actually, some air brake systems do use the air to hold off the
brakes and springs to apply it. I had a 1955 Kenworth-Pacific school
bus fitted out this way. When it broke down and had to be towed the
driver hooked up the lines and when to pull away and it wouldn't move
and actually stalled the Peterbuilt wreaker. He looked at me and
asked "spring-air brakes?" When I said yes he re hooked the lines
and the brakes released allowing the bus to be towed. I belive this
was a required standard on school busses to prevent runaways in case
of brake failure.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
--- End Message ---
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Andrew wrote:
>> ...wiring up my truck (120v, 9" Kostov) and decided to use
>> copper buss bars instead of 2/0 and lugs for some of the
>> shorter connections... what size copper do I need to use?
>> I was thinking of 1/16" or 3/32" by 1".
You didn't mention your controller. The controller limits the battery current,
which in turn decides how big your conductors should be.
For a Curtis controller that won't draw more than a couple hundred amps for
more than a few minutes, 1/16" copper is fine.
For an Auburn, DCP, or other controller that can draw 500 amps for for several
minutes, 3/32" would be a better choice.
For a Zilla that can draw 1000 amp sustained currents, I wouldn't use anything
thinner than 1/8".
Note that it is fine to stack up several sheets of thinner material to get the
desired total. Several thin sheets will be easier to get and more flexible.
For example, I have a Curtis 1231C in my EV. I live in a small town, and the
only copper I could find was 0.020" thick copper flashing for roofing. So, I
made a pile of 1" x 4" strips, and used 3 per battery jumper (0.060" or about
1/16").
Each strip has a measured resistance of 0.0005 ohms. 3 in parallel thus have a
voltage drop of about 0.03v at 200 amps. Installed, the total drop is more like
0.05v, including the connections at each end. That's 10 watts at 200 amps; they
get warm to the touch, but that's all.
>> The other thing is, where do I find copper? I was
>> thinking about flattening some pipe, but the only pipe
>> I can find is thin-wall. Any thoughts on where I could
>> find thick-wall tubing?
Don't use tubing unless you're cheap or desperate. Its resistance is higher,
since it is hardened and not a particularly pure copper.
From: Electro Automotive
>Go to a local sheet metal shop or heating and A/C contractor and have
>them shear 1/16" thick copper sheett into 1" wide strips. Drill your
>connecting bolt holes about 1/2" in from the ends and insulate the
>center portion with 3/4" heat shrink tube about 2" shorter than the
>copper strap.
This will work fine. But I prefer to leave them bare, so they dissipate heat
better. You are using a sub-standard size "wire", so they get warm at high
currents. If you insulate them too much, they will get hot!
I chose to dip mine in a solder pot to "tin" them, before stacking them up and
bolting them on. The tin/lead coating protects them from corrosion.
--
Lee Hart
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From: D3
>When is this patent scheduled to expire and fall into "public domain"?
Probably "never". There are lots of legal tricks now being used to extend
patents indefinitely. For instance, you claim there was an error in the patent,
and re-file an amended version. This re-starts the timer all over again. If
Chevron/Cobasys is truly interested in maintaining the patent, it they have the
financial and legal resources to drag in on indefinitely.
The sad fact is that the only way a patent expires nowdays is that the owner
dies or ceases to pay the legal fees to maintain it. Or, that some competitor
with a huge war chest challenges its validity in court. Decades and tens of
millions of dollars later, the patent may get invalidated.
--
Lee Hart
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First, you must come to grips with the fact that you can't have a car
that does everything but costs nothing. Every vehicle design is a
compromise between performance and cost.
I have often suggested that a car manufacturer come out with an EV
with two options on the battery pack. One would be the "sensible"
pack that would take the car 80 to 120 miles. The other "pig" pack
would take the car 350 miles. Then let the consumer make the
design/cost compromise himself on the showroom floor.
The sensible pack equipped EV would have a reasonable cost, peppy
performance, handle nicely, and would, in reality, meet the
consumer's commuting needs 100%.
The 350 mile "pig" pack option would eliminate the trunk space, cut
acceleration to a marginal level, make the car handle like a bathtub
full of water, and add $40,000 to the price tag.
Folks that insist that they absolutely must have 350 mile range will
very quickly change their minds when they actually have to make the
design compromises to achieve that "requirement."
No one will actually buy the "pig" pack. However, offering it, and
allowing the consumer to make the choice, will sell a lot of sensible pack EVs.
You are talking about building the equivalent "pig pack" EV. That is,
you are trying to force-fit electric vehicle technology into a
transportation role in which it is unsuitable (or marginally
suitable.) You have two choices, pay the insane cost or alter the
design (and/or the application) to have sensible costs. You have to
step back and separate what you "want" from what you "need".
Bill Dube'
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This is definitely NOT the case as concerns pharmaceuticals. Patents
expire after 17 years.
Lee Hart wrote:
From: D3
When is this patent scheduled to expire and fall into "public domain"?
Probably "never". There are lots of legal tricks now being used to extend
patents indefinitely. For instance, you claim there was an error in the patent, and
re-file an amended version. This re-starts the timer all over again. If Chevron/Cobasys
is truly interested in maintaining the patent, it they have the financial and legal
resources to drag in on indefinitely.
The sad fact is that the only way a patent expires nowdays is that the owner
dies or ceases to pay the legal fees to maintain it. Or, that some competitor
with a huge war chest challenges its validity in court. Decades and tens of
millions of dollars later, the patent may get invalidated.
--
Lee Hart
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Check out the solar racing teams. These vehicles are indeed made out of
carbon fiber and titanium, and are extremely aerodynamic. Most the driver
has to lay down and just barely fits inside. Some (most?) have budgets in
the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And with all of that they can't drive at 70 mph using just their massive
solar panels that cover the top of the vehicle. They need to use their
onboard batteries to hit these kinds of speeds.
Solar races generally have a solar charging period in the morning, a
racing period, and then another solar charging period in the afternoon.
And even
> So assuming money was no object, could you just build a vehicle from
> scratch out of titanium or carbon fibre in order for it to be
> lightweight enough to make a difference? Or will something
> 6'x15'x6' (WxLxH) still be too big to go anywhere faster than a snail?
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2007, at 1:22 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
>
>> From: Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date: February 17, 2007 1:18:46 AM CST
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would
>> the drag of the vehicle be less than the electricity generating
>> rate of pv's on the roof?
>>
>>
>> I'm going to take an educated guess-- with a Grand Caravan covered
>> with PV, maybe 2-3 mph continuous. NO freeway speeds.
>>
>> Take a look at the solar race vehicles, extremely light with lots
>> of PV. They can generate some decent speeds, but a minivan?!?
>> Forget drag, the weight of the van is the biggest factor.
>>
>> Jerry
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
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From: Kenneth Dove
>This is definitely NOT the case as concerns pharmaceuticals. Patents
>expire after 17 years.
With pharmaceuticals, it appears the favorite method is to reformulate the drug
slightly, and patent it again.
--
Lee Hart
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In a message dated 2/17/2007 1:35:25 PM Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
From: Kenneth Dove
>This is definitely NOT the case as concerns pharmaceuticals. Patents
>expire after 17 years.
With pharmaceuticals, it appears the favorite method is to reformulate the
drug slightly, and patent it again.
--
Lee Hart
But, the original formulation does go "to the public domain" and the generic
companies start making it.
Usually (but not always!) this results in a real cost saving for the
consumer. I'm an R.N. who's worked in the community mental health field for
20+
years. When I see uninsured mentally ill people grappling with $350 a month
drug bills, I and many others eagerly await the expiration of the patient. AT
LEAST IN THIS SCENERIO, THE DRUG COMPANIES ARE MAKING THE PATENTED PRODUCT
AVAILABLE! (For huge profits) We recently had a thread on the "ethics and the
common good" of corporations using patents to withhold products from the
marketplace to shore up the sales of other products (ie: OIL.....).
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
1972 VW Van - to be converted this year!
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>>>>>>Practical experience (the late Red Beastie -
>>>>>> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/037.html ) has shown that freeway
>>>>>> speed in an unaerodynamic vehicle can be maintained for an hour with
>>>>>> less than half that weight in batteries.
A fairly /small/ unareodynamic vehicle. The red beasty is small toyota
pickup, from back when the /small/ pickups were still fairly small. It
not tiny, but it has a fairly small frontal area.
And it's carrying 2400 lbs worth of batteries.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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I weouldn't botrher with this. By the time a battery ends up in a
junkyard it's pretty much shot, and if it isn't it will be within a year
of sitting around the junkyard.
> here is a cheaper idea for you, go ahead build a big heavy vehicle, but
> power it with used car batteries, and basically use it to pick up and
> transport the used batteries from one junkyard to the next across the
> country, as they will wear out quickly but last long enough to get to
> the next junkyard to refill with new old ones, and along the way you
> might eventually collect a good set of deep-cycle or golf-cart batteries.
>
> Consider it a quest for a good battery, and scour the countryside to
> find them free or cheap. Sounds like an adverture, be sure to write a
> book, get a website so people can direct you to their place to collect
> their batteries. Get on CNN, visited by Al Gore, etc :)
>
> Jack
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> On Feb 16, 2007, at 11:15 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
>>
>>> But more important than the length is the shape of the front and
>>> rear. The best shape for the front is a blunt rounded shape (like
>>> half of a sphere), and the best shape for the rear is a long tapered
>>> shape. This is the classic "teardrop" shape that is assumed by a
>>> raindrop falling through the air.
>>
>>
>> On Feb 16, 2007, at 11:15 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
>>
>>> Aerodynamically speaking long and skinny has less drag than short and
>>> fat.
>>> The length does effect the overall drag, but not as much as width does
>>> (for a given volume)
>>
>>
>>
>> Which I assume is why a "teardrop trailer" can be pulled by something
>> as small as a motorcycle if it's built well. So what I need to do is
>> build my own vehicle from scratch, using the Ultra Van shape as an
>> inspiration, making it twice as long but half as tall and shaped like a
>> teardrop trailer in the back....hmmmmm.... ;-)
>>
>>
>> On Feb 16, 2007, at 11:15 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
>>
>>> Anything that disturbs the air increases drag - the more violent the
>>> disturbance, the greater the drag. If you look at the side
>>> silhouette of a car towing a trailer, you see that the air has to go
>>> up over the car, down to the trailer hitch, then back up again over
>>> the trailer, then down behind the trailer. This adds a whole lot of
>>> drag, especially if the trailer is significantly larger than the
>>> towing vehicle (which increases the frontal area). This is why it
>>> takes a lot of horsepower to tow trailers.
>>>
>>> Actually, if the trailer is close to the back of the towing vehicle,
>>> and the trailer is smaller (so no increase in the frontal area), then
>>> the drag might actually go down - because you've made a total shape
>>> more like a teardrop.
>>
>>
>>
>> It makes perfect sense; again, why the "teardrop trailer" enthusiasts
>> are always tooting their own horns and congratulating themselves on
>> their genius. They're short, skinny, rounded, and close to the back of
>> the vehicle.
>>
>> So exactly what would the police do to me if I attempted to cross the
>> country (non-freeway routes only) in a commuter car such as the Xebra?
>>
>>
>> On Feb 16, 2007, at 11:15 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
>>
>>> <grin> it's been done. Search for Steve Roberts, the high tech nomad
>>> and
>>> his recumbent bicycle "Behemoth". He road around the states a couple
>>> decades back on a it towing a trailer with satelite comms, solar
>>> panels,
>>> ham radio. The bike had it's own local area network.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ah, but I have something he didn't havetwo dogsSure, there are
>> trailer crates for bicyclists to tow pets, but I think that might
>> qualify as cruel and unusual punishment for anything longer than a
>> quick trip across town to the vet. My animals are small, but they
>> insist on being practically on top of me all the time, so they'd surely
>> pitch a fit if they had to be confined that far away from me for hours
>> at a time.
>>
>> I did at one time consider getting an electric scooter (the kind that
>> qualify as motorcycles because they can reach 60mph), but I ran into
>> the same problem with the trailer issue, among other things. Plus, my
>> mother and grandparents are paranoid and insist I need to be fully
>> enclosed in a locked vehicle to avoid all the terrible dangers lurking
>> in the world for a woman traveling alone. Don't even get me started.
>>
>> On Feb 16, 2007, at 11:15 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
>>
>>> It was a shock to me too, Crystal..... Those low figures no doubt are
>>> done
>>> with surplus aircraft motors and the like. I spent about $1600 on
>>> my project
>>> and that's not counting the motorcycle parts (they were part of the
>>> "basement
>>> stash" of old BMW parts). I'm planning on $6,000+ for the VW Van
>>> project
>>> (DC powered, 50 mile range, no solar panels (on the vehicle at
>>> least).
>>>
>>> You can take a look at what $1600 got me......
>>> _http://new.photos.yahoo.com/hobo5743bmw/album/576460762322330302
>>
>>
>>
>> 6K I could probably handle in short order, and much more if I spread it
>> out over a few months, but perhaps I'll have to go biodiesel instead in
>> order to get a better range. BTW, does biodiesel get similar MPG as
>> regular diesel?
>>
>>
>> On Feb 16, 2007, at 11:15 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
>>
>>> Let's have some fun.
>>>
>>> At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag of the
>>> vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's on the
>>> roof?
>>>
>>> In other words how long and aerodynamic would an van have to be
>>> before it could crusie at say 70 mph endlessly on pv's on its roof in
>>> normal unclouded daylight in say southern california latitude?
>>>
>>> What is the cd of say a voyager van or another slick van?
>>> How much would it have to be stretched to get enough roof for enough
>>> photovoltaics (non titling so assume 30 degree sun angle.) To run all
>>> day on a highway under the sun.
>>>
>>> We can assume 10% pv efficiency right? Someone else here will know
>>> how many watts it would take a typical van to run at 65 mph.
>>> How efficient is the motor?
>>> Let 's assume it is running in no battery mode so it's pv straight to
>>> motor and there is no battery conversion loss.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don't I wish! The way it sounds, the van would have to be 4x as long
>> and half as wide and half as tall as a regular van in order to house
>> enough solar panels to do the job. Of course I have done zero math on
>> this, I'm just being facetious, but I suspect the answer will be just
>> as scary.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 16, 2007, at 11:15 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
>>
>>> Buy a small trailer and load it up with 55 gallon drums so you can
>>> fill up
>>> where you can find 100% biodiesel and then just drive untill you can
>>> find
>>> more.
>>> Most states have at least one place where you can buy 100%
>>> biodiesel. The
>>> sprinter can run on this without modification as long as it's not too
>>> cold. Biodiesel gels at a higher temperature than petrol diesel, but
>>> it's
>>> usually somewhere below 40 degrees.
>>
>>
>>
>> You're talking Fahrenheit, right? But above 40 degrees, I can just pour
>> it in like regular gasoline without modifying anything from the factory
>> state of the diesel innards? Is it dangerous to carry biodiesel inside
>> the vehicle, perhaps storing it on the floor in the very back of the
>> van? Or would it stink too badly to get any sleep? But I guess you're
>> right, I could tow a trailer if necessary. How much does biodiesel cost
>> per gallon?
>>
>> I read about one guy who converted his vehicle to 100% LPG. What about
>> this? Is this a good idea, or is it just swapping one polluting fuel
>> for another?
>>
>> Sorry for my incessant questioning; I'm trying to absorb as much
>> knowledge about this subject as possible in the shortest amount of
>> time. Thanks for all your help everyone. I think I'll start shopping
>> around for a used Sprinter diesel to see what I can find.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
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