EV Digest 6654
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Looking for hybrid listproc
by "Alan Gideon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Regen is a bit better than you think (was: EV APU (genset)
emissions & FE)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Kokam LiPoly Batts
by Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Kokam LiPoly Batts
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Kokam LiPoly Batts
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Regen wiring idea/question
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) EVLN(Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Moment Television)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EVLN(3wheel AC Flybo EV: 90mph, 150mi range, slide out Li packs in Oct07)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Kokam LiPoly Batts
by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Wise A** Bad Boy Charger
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by Dutch universities
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Regen wiring idea/question
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Regen wiring idea/question
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) OT: Oklahoma - Alternative Fuels Act
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Kokam LiPoly Batts
by Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) "largish" brushless motors available
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Wise A** Bad Boy Charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Well I am still researching the emissions benefits from stationary engines converted to propane. That ratio should apply
to the propane genset.
One aspect thats got lost in the hue and cry over cheap gensets, is the advantage of regen. It seems to me that one of
the major benefits of a pluggable hybrid over a high-mileage gas car is the ability to recover that braking energy.
Unfortunately most on this list haven't developed a system for it. So far I hear of AC motors in the +$3000 range and
the D&D sepex DC shunt-type motor at about the same cost as standard DC motor and controller. Some have discussed adding
a separate generator/alternator driven with some system of clutches, but that seems to violate my weight and complexity
goals, compared to the benefits.
Any other regen options?
How is the D&D sepex-regen-controller option, anybody used it?
JF
childreypa wrote:
If I may weigh in on this subject... I have long wanted to post
something on this. I absolutely agree that a Home depot generator is
just not smart. However, what if you were to run a generator using a
driver designed with efficiency and greenness in mind. Say a 1.0L Geo
metro engine. Running at constant rpm, powering an efficient generator,
I hypothesize that it would be possible to get just as good gpm as the
metro and still have the all electric capability provided the ICE was
mounted in the vehicle. Anyway, this is my project so Ill let you know
over the summer.
Not to drag this out of it's a dead post.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
F
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
john fisher wrote:
regen... It seems to me that one of the major benefits of a pluggable
hybrid over a high-mileage gas car is the ability to recover that
braking energy. Unfortunately most on this list haven't developed a
system for it.
Regen is great if you do a lot of stop-and-go driving, or have lots of
hills. But in typical driving, it only provides 5-15% more range.
Considering the additional cost and complexity, most simple budget EV
conversions leave regen out.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lowell Simmons wrote:
I hope there are some educators out there that get into EV Conversions.
Yes! I think that's a wonderful idea.
I am an Automotive instructor, but we incorporate our conversions into
as much of the total school as possible. I would really like to push
> educator involvement into the EV Challenge (EVChallenge.org).
That's what I've found works the best, too. In regular classes, they try
to teach kids about fractions, ratios, measuring things, the scientific
method, how to take notes, how to learn from a book, and a thousand
other things. All too often, the kids learn it by rote; they see no
purpose other than to please the teacher and "get by" the tests.
In BEST, I try to connect what they are doing in class. They see
fractions as pointless -- until they have to find a drill bit that's one
size bigger than 5/16". They won't measure things -- until they've had
to cut the same board 3 times because they got the length wrong "by
eye". They learn to take notes so *they* can remember things that are
important to *them* (we can't mount the motor because you forgot to
bring the bolts).
Hands-on experience and practical theory, in my opinion is the best
classroom. Sitting in a school classroom learning about theories
scribbled out on a chalkboard doesn't have the same effect as
learning out in the garage and race track.
Absolutely! Kids learn fastest when you give them a direct, personal
reason to learn. Not "because I said so" but because they *want* to get
their car working.
Also, people learn better from their mistakes than from their successes.
They forget easy victories, but *never* forget great mistakes! We're
creating an environment where it's safe and OK to fail. You're doing
something new and untried; where many much-bigger better-funded and
more-experienced people have also failed. Even a small success is a
great victory.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yeah thats what I figured. It fits my profile of 100% city driving. If the D&D DC system works as claimed, they sell you
the motor and controller together as a package, it wouldn't add complexity or much cost, but no one seems to be doing
it? That makes me wary. Seems that 72 or 96 V might be the limit, which is probably OK for me.
JF
Lee Hart wrote:
Regen is great if you do a lot of stop-and-go driving, or have lots of
hills. But in typical driving, it only provides 5-15% more range.
Considering the additional cost and complexity, most simple budget EV
conversions leave regen out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Regen offers some additional advantages:
1. Providing that brake blending for vehicle safety has been carefully
considered, regen cuts way down on friction brake maintenance.
2. Regen can be blended off the accel pedal to simulate compression braking
making the driver more at ease.
3. Regen into the battery not only recovers energy, it also raises battery
voltage on subsequent discharge giving the regen efficiency an unexpected
boost.
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 03:34:17 -0500, Lee Hart wrote
> john fisher wrote:
> > regen... It seems to me that one of the major benefits of a pluggable
> > hybrid over a high-mileage gas car is the ability to recover that
> > braking energy. Unfortunately most on this list haven't developed a
> > system for it.
>
> Regen is great if you do a lot of stop-and-go driving, or have lots
> of hills. But in typical driving, it only provides 5-15% more range.
> Considering the additional cost and complexity, most simple budget
> EV conversions leave regen out.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the interest of keeping things on-topic here, would anyone kindly point
me toward the hybrid vehicle mail list?
Thanks,
Alan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> One aspect thats got lost in the hue and cry over cheap gensets, is the
> advantage of regen. It seems to me that one of
> the major benefits of a pluggable hybrid over a high-mileage gas car is
> the ability to recover that braking energy.
That's because the "benifits" are generally negligible. The amount of
energy you can gain from Regen on a long highway trip are almost
non-existent. Perhaps a little bit if you have any long or steep downhill
sections on your trip.
You can get a bit in city driving from all the stops, but learning to
drive efficiently (i.e. anticipate the stops and coast) will get you just
as much, if not more.
The foks that have experimented with Regen report range improvements of 0
to 10%. Most reported closer to 0% and, since these were generally not
tested with proper scientific methods, the 10% figure might include overly
generous calculations.
The vast majority of energy use in an EV is overcoming friction, drag, and
electrical losses. NONE of that is recoverable with regen.
Of the energy you can recover, you also loose some of that due to the same
friction and electrical losses, plus you have storage losses.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You get a bit more than you would first think from regen.
Around town in stop-and-go traffic, you would calculate that you
would save about 10% or 15%. Then you travel that extra 15%. While
traveling that extra 15%, you get 15% more of that!
Also, batteries really like to "flip over" and charge for just a bit
during discharge. They are not simple beings chemically, and the
brief charge during regen, especially for lead-acid batteries, makes
a greater range increase than you would expect, when just using a
simple calculation. Also, you move to a different part of the
Puekert's curve on the batteries, helping just a bit more.
Al these "non-linear" effects work together to add perhaps an extra
5% that you would not at first calculate.
On the highway, or in light traffic that allows you to drive
efficiently without using the brakes, regen makes no difference. It
is also expensive to add to a DC drive system. It is generally much
cheaper to simply add another battery or two.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV calculators seem to need Peukert numbers for all batteries, even
though, strictly speaking, they apply to lead-acid batteries.
I'm looking at the Kokam SLPB 460330 series
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
and not finding much in the way of information that would allow me to
calculate Peukert numbers.
This issue has been raised in the past, for example in digest 4159 in
which some "Pseudo Peukert" numbers were calcuated (for different
batteries), but unfortunately the data mentioned is no longer available
on Kokam's web site (that I can find).
Kokam makes a statement that capacity is only reduced by 5% when
discharging at 2C, but is generally mum otherwise.
So....anybody have some numbers that would seem reasonable? Barring
that, anybody have any idea where to get the data to calcuate the
numbers (aside from asking Kokam, of course).
Thanks,
--Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You should ask the guys at ProEV.
http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm
--T
On 4/10/07, Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
EV calculators seem to need Peukert numbers for all batteries, even
though, strictly speaking, they apply to lead-acid batteries.
I'm looking at the Kokam SLPB 460330 series
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
and not finding much in the way of information that would allow me to
calculate Peukert numbers.
This issue has been raised in the past, for example in digest 4159 in
which some "Pseudo Peukert" numbers were calcuated (for different
batteries), but unfortunately the data mentioned is no longer available
on Kokam's web site (that I can find).
Kokam makes a statement that capacity is only reduced by 5% when
discharging at 2C, but is generally mum otherwise.
So....anybody have some numbers that would seem reasonable? Barring
that, anybody have any idea where to get the data to calcuate the
numbers (aside from asking Kokam, of course).
Thanks,
--Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve,
Just out of curiosity, do you have pricing for the Kokam cells yet?
I was planning to go with ThunderSky LFP lithiums, but am always
interested to hear alternatives. The ThunderSky LFPs are not quite as
energy dense as those Kokam LiPos, but the iron phosphate chemistry
is supposed to be safer (less chance of thermal runaway) and longer-
lived (2-3K cycles).
On 11/04/2007, at 8:02 AM, Steve Peterson wrote:
EV calculators seem to need Peukert numbers for all batteries, even
though, strictly speaking, they apply to lead-acid batteries.
I'm looking at the Kokam SLPB 460330 series
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
and not finding much in the way of information that would allow me to
calculate Peukert numbers.
This issue has been raised in the past, for example in digest 4159 in
which some "Pseudo Peukert" numbers were calcuated (for different
batteries), but unfortunately the data mentioned is no longer
available
on Kokam's web site (that I can find).
Kokam makes a statement that capacity is only reduced by 5% when
discharging at 2C, but is generally mum otherwise.
So....anybody have some numbers that would seem reasonable? Barring
that, anybody have any idea where to get the data to calcuate the
numbers (aside from asking Kokam, of course).
Thanks,
--Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me say first off, " I know what you are gonna say, Why in the world are
you using a G29 Aircraft Generator for a motor?" It was $180.oo and my first
EV conversion, please overlook it.
Now, Here's my question - Since this generator/motor will produce voltage
when I'm coasting downhill, (Clutchless EV) could I use a 400amp Diode and a
contactor to route that voltage back to the battery pack? I'd engage the regen
contactor with the brake pedal switch, (Note: I'd adjust the sensitivity of the
switch to where the brake pedal would not actually have to activate the
hydraulic brakes during regen) and add a light on the dash letting me know that
regen is active. I'm going to be using an Alltrax AXE7245 controller in this
application. I certainly don't want to chance blowing up the controller.
Please feel free to rip this idea apart. I could not find anything on this in
the archives.
Thanks in advance - Mike
PS: Thanks for all the comments on EV converting in the Schools, I'm
collecting them, and hope to put together a proposal to a few schools in the
area. Most of the schools have dropped Vocational Training, and no longer have
Auto Shop. To make it even tougher, Oklahoma, has a law forbidding individuals
from EV converting, unless you become certified by the State. Going to be a
rough sell in Texas and Oklahoma.
Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Moment Television)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_54177.shtml
Peak Moment Television presents five new online videos
By: Peak Moment Television Published: Apr 4, 2007 at 08:23
Moment Television has produced five new online videos focusing on
community localization topics from local currency to electric
cars, plus a conversation with Richard Heinberg. You can watch or
listen at www.peakmoment.tv. Peak Moment: Community Responses for
a Changing Energy Future is a television series emphasizing
positive responses to energy decline and climate change through
local community action. The new programs are:
[...]
[
http://www.yubanet.com/artman/uploads/pm52_150.jpg
]
52 Return of the Electric Car Otmar Ebenhoech has worked with
electric vehicles for decades, watching as popular commercial EVs
were developed, then recalled when their legal mandate was
overturned. He sees improved battery technologies as the catalyst
to enable widespread acceptance of EVs. Peek under the hood and
watch a test drive of his hot electric Porsche race car
conversion (0-60 in less than 5 seconds!).
[...]
These half-hour video conversations and on-site tours highlight
individuals, businesses, organizations and communities working
towards sustainability and economic localization: How can we
thrive, build self-reliant communities, and help one another in
the transition from a fossil fuel-based lifestyle?
The series is cablecast on community access TV stations
nationwide and are available on DVD. It is shown locally on NCTV,
cable channel 11, Thursdays 7:00 pm and Tuesdays 3:30 pm. It also
shows locally on Auburn, Davis, and Sacramento Community Access
TV. A listing of stations nationwide is on the Peak Moment
website.
Peak Moment is hosted and produced by Janaia Donaldson and
directed by Robyn Mallgren of Yuba Gals Independent Media, Nevada
City, California, who gratefully acknowledge Global Public Media
and YouTube for hosting media available on www.peakmoment.tv.
Copyright © 2007 YubaNet.com, all rights reserved.
===
[Video
http://www.peakmoment.tv/conversations/52.html
Audio
http://media.globalpublicmedia.com/RM/PeakMoment/PM52audio.mp3
Return of the Electric Car
Episode 52: Otmar Ebenhoech has worked with electric vehicles for
decades, watching as popular commercial EVs were developed, then
recalled when their legal mandate was overturned. He sees
improved battery technologies as the critical factor for viable
future EVs. Peek under the hood and watch a test drive of his hot
electric Porsche race car conversion (0-60 in less than 5
seconds!). www.cafeelectric.com ]
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
____________________________________________________________________________________
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(3wheel AC Flybo EV: 90mph, 150mi range, slide out Li packs in
Oct07)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
[Editor's notes: below is a message from a Flybo salesperson.
Their web site looks the same as before and there is no mention
of the coming highway speed EV model mentioned below.
Their nEVs are about $10k so with an additional $10k Li-ion
pack, the 'up&coming' EV model mentioned below would likely
cost the consumer more than $20k.]
-[Edited]
From: "Flybo-EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Flybo-EV - UPDATES!
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:15:22 -0400
Everyone,
Business is brisk!
Just an update to let you know where we are at;
1. Website links all now work, with our factory visit galleries
now working - take a look at [ http://flybo-ev.com ]
2. In-Process of filling in all the signed state distributors -
will take a while. For the time being, if you don't see a
state represented, it is open for a distributor.
3. Lithium Ion Batteries - We found THE supplier for the best
Lithium Polymer batteries, battery management system,
controller, etc. The setup allows 150 miles per charge, and
it charges in less than two hours. Sounds great, right?
Unfortunately, it COSTS US (as in no mark-up) over $10,000 per
set. That's ten with three zeros after it. Your thoughts are
appreciated, but that looks like it won't be an option in the
Flybo-EV LSVs/NEVs any time soon. New model coming out -
October 2007 release date - I so badly want to tease everyone
slowly, but I'm too excited - here are the preliminary
details;
* 3-wheeled, classified as Motorcycle (NO on-road restrictions)
* Fully enclosed 3-passenger cabin
* 45HP AC motor, Regenerative Braking
* 90MPH top speed (Electronically limited)
* Upgradeable battery options - 75, 150, 200 mile option (all Li
Polymer) FASCHARGE slide in-out packs.
* Full luxury interior - AM/FM/CD/DVD/PC/GPS/OBD, Bose sound
system, wireless computer
* Heads-up display
I won't show a picture yet - It is two wheels front, drive wheel
rear, and unlike anything you have ever seen - futuristic, yet
timeless. Elegant, yet appearing powerful. It resembles no
other electric vehicle you have ever seen.
It is our design (contracted thru an Italian automotive design
house) and is simply artistic in quality. Thank you, everyone,
for your interest.
[ http://flybo-ev.com http://wuzheng.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
Michael Papp
Managing Director
Flybo-EV North America, LTD
866-WUZHENG
309-410-6509 (FAX)
MSN Messenger ID - Wuzheng NA
The world consists of three types of people;
One type sits poolside, watching the swimmers
One type stands on the diving platform, looking at the water
Then there are those few of us who jump
MJP
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ian, Steve,
I would stay away from ThunderSky products - they are very poor quality and
it's very hard to get two identical by capacity and internal resistance,
especially when you go with high capacities.
About Kokam, I have experience with 216216 series (40 Ah and 53 (custom made))
and I must say - they do what they say - capacity drop with higher currents
is very low.
Cells are very stable and easy to balance with BMS.
If you need some extra details from Kokam about their cell, please list them
and I'll ask friend of mine to provide me all necessary answers.
Regards,
Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Can a 48 volt Lester automatic charger be used as a Wise A** Bad Boy on a 36
volt pack? Wise A** since it thinks it knows more than it does.
What I have is a boom lift with a 12 pack of T105s connected in a
series/parallel connection for 440 AH at 36 volts. For some reason the lift
has installed on it a 48 volt Lester. What I am trying is to let the
charger keep its 25 amp charge rate and just make sure I turn it off since
the charger will never see whatever magic number it is looking for as a 48
volt rating to turn itself off. It seems to self limit to 25 amps and the
voltage starts at 38-39 volts and slowly climbs. As long as I monitor the
voltage and keep it below 44 volts won't this work?
Should this work for the short term until the proper charger can be
obtained?
respectfully,
John Neiswanger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hello john
cc a copy to me too .. it will be important to understand
why things happen the way they do .. and not the way
they should happen
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by Dutch universities
> I think this is an interesting argument about the nature of engineering
> and organized projects and so forth, so I'll take it off-line with jerry.
>
> back to EVs...
>
> JF
>
> jerryd wrote:
> >
> > Let's see, Microsft, HP, most medicine, Rudman,
> > Otmar, Lee amoung a hugh number of others.
> > ...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just for my info:
How is the law forbidding an EV conversion?
Just trying to see if the state law is not in violation with higher laws,
making it null and void... Would not be the first time.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Barkley
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 8:19 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Regen wiring idea/question
Let me say first off, " I know what you are gonna say, Why in the world are
you using a G29 Aircraft Generator for a motor?" It was $180.oo and my
first EV conversion, please overlook it.
Now, Here's my question - Since this generator/motor will produce voltage
when I'm coasting downhill, (Clutchless EV) could I use a 400amp Diode and
a contactor to route that voltage back to the battery pack? I'd engage the
regen contactor with the brake pedal switch, (Note: I'd adjust the
sensitivity of the switch to where the brake pedal would not actually have
to activate the hydraulic brakes during regen) and add a light on the dash
letting me know that regen is active. I'm going to be using an Alltrax
AXE7245 controller in this application. I certainly don't want to chance
blowing up the controller.
Please feel free to rip this idea apart. I could not find anything on this
in the archives.
Thanks in advance - Mike
PS: Thanks for all the comments on EV converting in the Schools, I'm
collecting them, and hope to put together a proposal to a few schools in the
area. Most of the schools have dropped Vocational Training, and no longer
have Auto Shop. To make it even tougher, Oklahoma, has a law forbidding
individuals from EV converting, unless you become certified by the State.
Going to be a rough sell in Texas and Oklahoma.
Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if its just a business certification to make sure you don't build
something that will kill someone. How does one become
a "certified" EV converter anyway? That must mean those states have someone
who is qualified to "certify" people. hmm, I wonder
;-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 10:09 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Regen wiring idea/question
>
>
> Just for my info:
> How is the law forbidding an EV conversion?
>
> Just trying to see if the state law is not in violation with higher laws,
> making it null and void... Would not be the first time.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Michael Barkley
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 8:19 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Regen wiring idea/question
>
>
> Let me say first off, " I know what you are gonna say, Why in the world are
> you using a G29 Aircraft Generator for a motor?" It was $180.oo and my
> first EV conversion, please overlook it.
>
> Now, Here's my question - Since this generator/motor will produce voltage
> when I'm coasting downhill, (Clutchless EV) could I use a 400amp Diode and
> a contactor to route that voltage back to the battery pack? I'd engage the
> regen contactor with the brake pedal switch, (Note: I'd adjust the
> sensitivity of the switch to where the brake pedal would not actually have
> to activate the hydraulic brakes during regen) and add a light on the dash
> letting me know that regen is active. I'm going to be using an Alltrax
> AXE7245 controller in this application. I certainly don't want to chance
> blowing up the controller.
>
> Please feel free to rip this idea apart. I could not find anything on this
> in the archives.
>
> Thanks in advance - Mike
>
> PS: Thanks for all the comments on EV converting in the Schools, I'm
> collecting them, and hope to put together a proposal to a few schools in the
> area. Most of the schools have dropped Vocational Training, and no longer
> have Auto Shop. To make it even tougher, Oklahoma, has a law forbidding
> individuals from EV converting, unless you become certified by the State.
> Going to be a rough sell in Texas and Oklahoma.
>
>
>
> Michael Barkley
>
> "You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
>
> www.texomaev.com
>
>
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Here's some snips from the Alternative Fuels Act regarding EV's. When I found
this out, I was really upset with Oklahoma. If there's an attorney in the
group, can some OKIES, get some advice? I could private you the entire statute.
I think it's the only state that has done this. This is stated in Statues:
74-130.12 through 74-130.24:
§74-130.12. Legislative intent.
It is the intent of the Oklahoma Legislature that the State Board of Career
and Technology Education develop curriculum for the training of technicians for
the installation and conversion of engines to be fueled by alternative fuels as
the technologies are developed. It is further the intent of the Oklahoma
Legislature that Oklahoma State University/Okmulgee develop curriculum for the
training of technicians for the installation, service, modification, repair or
renovation of fill stations. It is further the intent of the Oklahoma
Legislature to enact legislation which promotes the development of technology
in a manner that ensures the health and safety of the citizens of this state.
Examinations for certification as electric vehicle technicians shall be
uniform and practical in nature for electric vehicle technician certification
and shall be sufficiently strict to test the qualifications and fitness of the
applicants for certificates.
Beginning November 1, 1998, it shall be unlawful for any person to perform
the work or offer, by advertisement or otherwise, to perform the work of an
electric vehicle technician until such person has qualified and is certified as
an electric vehicle technician. Electric vehicles that have a manufacturer's
warranty shall be serviced by an authorized new car dealer. Any vehicle
manufacturer's training center located in the state, which offers alternative
fuel and electric vehicle courses meeting new car manufacturing requirements,
shall be exempted from this act. Provided, nothing in the Alternative Fuels
Technician Certification Act shall be construed to prohibit a noncertified
person from converting the engine of a farm tractor, as defined in Section
1-118 of Title 47 of the Oklahoma Statutes, to an engine fueled by alternative
fuels, as long as such farm tractor is not operated on the roads and highways
of this state.
The Department of Central Services shall issue a certificate as an electric
vehicle technician to any person who:
1. Has been certified by the Committee as either having successfully passed
the appropriate examination or having a valid license or certificate issued by
another governmental entity with licensing or certification requirements
similar to those provided in the Alternative Fuels Technician Certification Act;
2. Has paid the certification fee and otherwise complied with the provisions
of the Alternative Fuels Technician Certification Act; and
3. Has provided proof of liability insurance with limits of not less than
Fifty Thousand Dollars ($50,000.00) general liability.
§74-130.23. Violations - Criminal penalties.
Any person convicted of violating any provision of the Alternative Fuels
Technician Certification Act shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. The continued
violation of any provision of the Alternative Fuels Technician Certification
Act during each day shall be deemed to be a separate offense. Upon conviction
thereof the person shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail not to
exceed one (1) year, or by a fine of not more than One Thousand Dollars
($1,000.00), or by both such fine and imprisonment for each offense. The
Alternative Fuels Technician Hearing Board may request the appropriate district
attorney to prosecute such violation and seek an injunction against such
practice.
Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I wonder if its just a business certification to make sure you don't build
something that will kill someone. How does one become
a "certified" EV converter anyway? That must mean those states have someone who
is qualified to "certify" people. hmm, I wonder
;-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 10:09 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Regen wiring idea/question
>
>
> Just for my info:
> How is the law forbidding an EV conversion?
>
> Just trying to see if the state law is not in violation with higher laws,
> making it null and void... Would not be the first time.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
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Thanks for the responses, guys. Specifics below....
On Tue, 2007-04-10 at 21:13 -0400, Timothy Balcer wrote:
> You should ask the guys at ProEV.
>
> http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm
>
Yeah, the info on their website is pretty much what was in digest 4159
back in March 2005. I'll contact them, though, to see what they might
have learned in the meantime.
On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 10:27 +0800, Ian Hooper wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> Just out of curiosity, do you have pricing for the Kokam cells yet?
>
No, but I'm assuming they're darned expensive. The ProEV guys mentioned
$362 for the 70Ah version but that was back in 2005. I'm not going to be
able to start my conversion for a couple of years yet, so I'm hoping the
price will come down some by then. Right now I'm still in the
very early stages of studying the feasibility of going electric--I have
to travel a lot of freeways and some pretty steep hills (5-8% for a mile
or two, at 50mph or better) so it isn't clear I can get the range I need
without spending way more than I can afford on batteries. I've pretty
much convinced myself that lead acid won't do it, other promising chemistries
are too far from market to be of interest (so far as I can tell),
so lately I've been focusing on Li chemistry.
>
> I was planning to go with ThunderSky LFP lithiums, but am always
> interested to hear alternatives.
>
I'm looking at anything that might do the job for me; I've got the same
capacity questions about ThunderSky as I do the Kokams and other Li-based
batteries. Naturally price and quality will enter into the decision as well.
On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 06:56 +0200, Marcin Ciosek wrote:
> Hi Ian, Steve,
>
> I would stay away from ThunderSky products - they are very poor quality and
> it's very hard to get two identical by capacity and internal resistance,
> especially when you go with high capacities.
>
> About Kokam, I have experience with 216216 series (40 Ah and 53 (custom
> made))
> and I must say - they do what they say - capacity drop with higher currents
> is very low.
> Cells are very stable and easy to balance with BMS.
>
> If you need some extra details from Kokam about their cell, please list them
> and I'll ask friend of mine to provide me all necessary answers.
>
> Regards,
>
> Marcin
Marcin, thanks for the offer. Right now my main questions are:
1. Are there any significant differences between the 160460330 (240Ah),
the 140460330 (200Ah) and the 160460330H (200Ah) that would suggest
choosing one over the others for a typical EV application?
2. What is the internal resistance of these batteries?
3. What can I expect for a capacity drop at various currents? The ProEv guys
tested a 60460330 (70Ah) battery and saw 82% at 700 amps. Should I expect to
see
a similar number for the 200A versions?
4. Any thoughts on where pricing is likely to go in the next couple of years
would be of interest, too.
5. What BMS are you using? Kokam's?
6. How long have you been using yours? Any signs of deterioration? What's
your typically DOD?
Thanks,
--Steve
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hey,
i stumbled on these: RC BLDC motor makers have scaled their offerings
up increasingly, and now you can get a complete 15KW system from them.
for example Hacker A200 motor with a MasterSpin 300 controller would
cost around $1600
With a pair of those, you could move a light car.
There are other alternatives ( Plettenburg has Predator 37/06 in the
same power range )
So for a $3200, you'd be running what is essentially a 30KW AC system ( as
BLDC motors differ from PMAC motors only in winding distributions on
stator )
There would be quite a lot of mechanical work though, as the motors
are intended to be mounted on RC airplanes. They are very lightweight
for their available max power, however.
Now, if the demand is there, i believe those same manufacturers would
be willing to ship a line of motors and controllers modified for EV
apps.
anyone interested ?
-kert
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--- Begin Message ---
I couldn't find any specifications on the motor listed
below, but looking at other motors in that same class
(up to A60 on
http://www.hackerbrushless.com/motors.shtml)
These motors are rated for short duration and count on
high amounts of air flow through the stator to keep
the windings cool (notice the large holes on the shaft
endbell). Without the high air flow cooling, these
motors would have MUCH lower power ratings. I don't
think the A200 would be suitable for on road EV's, but
it may work on a small gocart if you properly cool the
motor and keep contaminates out of the motor.
Rod
--- Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hey,
>
> i stumbled on these: RC BLDC motor makers have
> scaled their offerings
> up increasingly, and now you can get a complete 15KW
> system from them.
> for example Hacker A200 motor with a MasterSpin 300
> controller would
> cost around $1600
> With a pair of those, you could move a light car.
> There are other alternatives ( Plettenburg has
> Predator 37/06 in the
> same power range )
>
> So for a $3200, you'd be running what is essentially
> a 30KW AC system ( as
> BLDC motors differ from PMAC motors only in winding
> distributions on
> stator )
> There would be quite a lot of mechanical work
> though, as the motors
> are intended to be mounted on RC airplanes. They are
> very lightweight
> for their available max power, however.
> Now, if the demand is there, i believe those same
> manufacturers would
> be willing to ship a line of motors and controllers
> modified for EV
> apps.
>
> anyone interested ?
>
> -kert
>
>
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Hello to All,
Kaido Kert wrote:
you can get a complete 15KW system from them.
for example Hacker A200 motor with a MasterSpin 300 controller would
cost around $1600
With a pair of those, you could move a light car.
So for a $3200, you'd be running what is essentially a 30KW AC system
And for $3625 you can get a 9 inch motor and a Zilla Z1K controller that
makes an extra 100 kw...that's 130 kw vs 30 kw!
This would 'really' move a light car.
See Ya....John Wayland
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From:
> Can a 48 volt Lester automatic charger be used as a Wise A**
> Bad Boy on a 36 volt pack?
It will work, but will fry your batteries the first time you forget to turn it
off in time!
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
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On 4/11/07, Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I couldn't find any specifications on the motor listed
below, but looking at other motors in that same class
the A100 / A150 A200 models are 2007 products, you can find the prices
on German site price list, but specs are not out on the website yet.
Preliminary specs were posted in RC groups forums, though.
These motors are rated for short duration and count on
high amounts of air flow through the stator to keep
the windings cool (notice the large holes on the shaft
endbell). Without the high air flow cooling, these
motors would have MUCH lower power ratings.
Of course, and the quoted numbers are obviously peak output power,
pulling this for more than ten seconds would fry it ( and RC guys
often do )
But im willing to oversize the motor significantly for my app, and as
there are so many of the RC brushless motor builders around with
enough pestering one of them will be wanting to produce motors
designed for EV apps too.
I don't think the A200 would be suitable for on road EV's, but
it may work on a small gocart if you properly cool the
motor and keep contaminates out of the motor.
im willing to experiment with that.
As for getting a Zilla, where is the fun in tried and true and knowing
that it works ? :) Also, im not a great fan of brushes.
Seriously, people have shown interest in UQM PM brushless motors for
example, but UQM isnt selling.
The RC BLDC motors are (somewhat) similar in operating principle and
construction, and its reasonable that one or few manufacturers would
be willing to "grow" and sell for EV hobbyists as well. The power
range already starts to show up, with enough interest, experimentation
and trial&error they might even be willing to design some stuff for
EVs
-kert
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