EV Digest 6658
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Interesting quote
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: HOW TO DRIVE AN EV FOR MAXIMUM RANGE. Re: EVLN(Tofu maker Toya pulses
& glid
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EV article needed
by "G. Strawbridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Future Killacycle VIDEOS - Please ??
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Genesis 16XE's and Oddyssey PC680's
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Buying new batteries, maybe more
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Zener reg question
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) OFF TOPIC: Where Have All the Bees Gone?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Regen-smeegen, how about REHEAT?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Motor supplier
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Where Have All the Bees Gone?
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Zener reg question
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Regen is a bit better than you think (was: EV APU (genset)
emissions & FE)
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Zener reg question
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Zener reg question
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Future Killacycle VIDEOS - Please ??
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) RE: Regen wiring idea/question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I just got a quote from a Chinese company for lifepo4 cells. (kinda
unconfirmed so just a data point for the trends)
Problem is low power/high capacity cells, Another argument for a hybrid
pack.
$2/ah
50ah cell is 1.18" x 5.9" x 8.26" and weights 4.73lbs
3.15 nominal, 3.65 EOC Voltage, LV cut-toff 2.3V
2C max continous means only 100A and the graphs show it sagging to 3V
3C for 15Sec burst but sags to 2.8V
5C sags below 2.5V
Cyclelife at 1C to still 95% capacity, over 1000 cycles.
so 50ah 300V pack is 95S1P. That is 450lbs. and $9500.00
Hummmm.
The nice part is less connections than all those 26650's
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
well we can't go too far on heavy truck hybrids here since this is supposed to be a BEV list, so I just have to say
thats what I remember from a quick read of news items a while back. Also I can't figure out any other way. Some are
saying they will use hydraulic storage too, instead of batteries. Thats not a relevant technology for cars, for sure.
JF
Phil Marino wrote:
From: john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:29:29 -0700
and yet its my impression that the new hybrid trucks get most or all
of their increased efficiency from regen.
John - can you tell why you have this impression?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: HOW TO DRIVE AN EV FOR MAXIMUM RANGE. Re: EVLN(Tofu maker
Toya pulses & glides his hybrid to nenpimania)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:29:49 -0500
It sounds like you're referring to the "bump and glide" technique the Prius
hackers rave about. I am not wholly convinced it is indeed for real but
keep an open mind. However, assuming it is, it's due to a quirk in the way
their ICE works.
For an EV, the vehicle needs X kwh/mi to counter aero and wheel drag to
maintain a certain speed. Allowing it to coast down, then speed up, should
not have any efficiency gain. This means half the time the motor puts out
0 KW and the other half 2*X KW. Unless you put it in neutral, the tranny
and motor turning losses still apply.
Fine - so put it in neutral and save these losses..
Motor losses typically are not linear so running it at twice the power for
half the time is worse off efficiency wise.
Motor efficiency does vary with load. But, the best efficiency is typically
somewhere in the middle of a motor's load range. If it is loaded too
lightly, the fan and brush friction losses dominate. If it is loaded too
heavily, the I^2R losses dominate ( as well as field saturation).
So, depending on the motor, vehicle, gearing, speed, etc , it may be more
efficient to run the motor half the time at twice the power.
Phil
The only
possible savings are in disconnecting the transmission by putting it in
Neutral.
Sure - why not?
Danny
_________________________________________________________________
Interest Rates Fall Again! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new
payment
http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18679&moid=7581
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I have an opportunity to share with anyone who would
like to write an article for an online journal about
the present state and opportunities of electric cars
from a laymen's technical standpoint . It needs to be
about 1800 words and due by 4/16/07 Let me know and I
will get you connected with the editor. Instead of
pay they will provide a Bio and a link to your
website. Please let me know ASAP.
Thanks, Geoff Strawbridge
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny I don't think you got the gist of my suggested design.
It's just a lightweight pluggable hybrid. Geo metros are not in the picture for my project as they ( and all OEM cars)
are too heavy.
and yes, 45 +- people who may not have read the whole thread, have already pointed out that commercial CARB certified
stationary engines are still pretty dirty compared to cars. All these pusher-trailer folks who jumped on today are
proposing exactly the same thing in effect, just using what they think is cleaner/cheaper/easier gas engine.
Propane powered cars have much better emissions than their gasoline versions, but of course we also know you can buy
ULEV gas cars today. Propane seems slightly better at greenhouse gases, but emissions of propane powered gensets are as
yet unknown to me. Possible use of catalytic converter also unknown in effect. Hydrogen is still too expensive, though
definitely possible.
refer to http://www.transportation.anl.gov/software/GREET/publications.html
for a terrific report-
BTW EVs listed as worst possible vehicle for sulfur dioxide emissions, but best
for most others, including greenhouse gases.
I started this by trying to figure out if it would work electrically. Apparently it will, so now I have to go off and
find out if the emissions are low enough. I have already determined that I can't get sufficient range in a small
lead-acid pack by itself, and the Lithium packs require too sophisticated a BMS/charger with way too many individual
units for me to build. So I am kinda stuck if the genset won't work - I'll probably give up and try to ride my bicycle a
lot more, with some motorcycle trips, or go on to an ultra-lightweight quadracycle/tadpole trike design. I could build a
high-mileage slow car too, but thats not very exciting.
cheers
JF
Danny Miller wrote:
Well let's assume you have found a technicality where the emissions laws
won't apply. For example, you only run the genny on non-public roadways
or in a parking lot.
I still have to ask, what was the point you wished to prove? If you end
up with a Geo Metro that gets 5-10 mpg less than
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We would love to have a team of professional videographers and
photographers swarming over the track for every run down the strip.
The reality is that we operate on a shoestring budget. We do the best
we can with the resources available to us.
For example, each member of the pit crew (with access to the track)
at this AHDRA event cost me $90 out of my own pocket. We all pay our
own travel and food expenses. The KillaCycle team members pay for
everything but the batteries out of their own pockets. We are
ordinary folks with ordinary paychecks working full-time jobs while
doing all this in our "spare" time with our "spare" money. We are
doing the best that we can.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So whats a good price for these in bulk?
How is $95 each? It seems kinda steep to me.
Hey John, does your sponsor want to sponsor a "Made in America" car for their
"Made in America" batteries?
:-O
Is it your understanding that the PC680 battery is the same as the 16XE with
just a different sticker? I'm hoping the Oddyssey's got the same inter cell
tie improvement as the 16XE's.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy all,
Well, I'm finally ready to buy my new pack. I may be upgrading the
controller and possibly the charger, too. Currently, I have a 120V pack of
badly abused T-125s. I'm thinking of getting more of the same since I'm
still fairly green and they seem to be forgiving, but I'm open to
suggestions. My plans are eventually to go up to a 156V pack so I'm
seriously thinking about changing it all now. Now, if I end up with a more
powerful controller I understand it might make sense to go with AGMs so I
can take full advantage of the controller.
Would it make sense to go with a 120V pack for now and grow it later, or
should I go ahead and try to do it all now while I'm getting the new pack?
What batteries do you guys recommend in either scenario? I'm willing to
spend around $2-3K on the pack (unless there is an amazing deal with another
chemistry) and I figure if I do the controller and charger I'm probably
looking at another $2-3K. The charger might be a must-have since I'd
probably have less chance of killing my second pack with a smarter charger.
So, lots of choices, lots of decisions to make. I'm being diligent and
doing research but I'm curious as to what some of you suggest, since many of
you have quite a bit of experience with this type of transition.
You can see what I've currently got on my album page. Thanks!
Matt Kenigson
http://austinev.org/evalbum/882
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:17:12 AM
Subject: Re: Zener reg question
"I'd measure the voltage across each battery when you see the lamps at
different brightnesses. You should find that the dimmer one is at a
lower voltage, evidence that it is taking more charging current to reach
the same state of charge as the other two."
Lee, this is what I've done and the most positive battery is always .1 volt
lower than the middle battery which is always .1 volt lower than the most
negative battery. These readings were taken during charging. After removing
the charging current and allowing overnight rest, the first two batteries in
the string read equal (my meter has .1 volt resolution) and the most positive
battery reads .1 volt lower. The charging algirithm allows for multi-hour
charging at Absorb levels and I would have thought that would be enough time to
equalize out.
I'll keep monitoring and will try an additional bulb in parallel to see if
letting more current bypass helps. It just seems bizarre that the most
negative battery is always better charged than the most positive battery.
These are pretty chunky Group 31 AGM's (the same battery Cor has in his truck).
I had fun building the regs. :)
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Apr 2007 at 23:16, GWMobile wrote:
> Interesting analysis of the shortage of crops for ethanol.
Perhaps interesting to the person posting it, but this message is off topic and
inappropriate for the EVDL.
Please respond to the sender in private email, NOT on the EVDL - don't just
click "reply."
Respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Remove the 4s and 8s before using the address)
Thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom,
Braking resistors are used in a lot of electric powered vehicles, like
locomotives. Could you use one with a series motor? Maybe. Would require
disconnect of the Curtis and some way to excite the motor field separately
after switching the resistor across the armature.
Jeff
Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Been thinking about coming down Mt. Washington and all the talk about
regen and braking electrically.
Can anyone tell me if this might toast a controller?:
How about a big braking resistor, like I use for contactor
controllers that comes across the motor connections either manually
via a relay or automatically, whenever you hit the brake real hard?
Would that bother a Curtis controller when it is not powering the
motor? Would seem not to??
Given Mt. Washington is a lot like Maine, we could use the heat, as
well as in any EV in the northern tier of states for a lot of the year.
Tom in Maine (was a little chilly yesterday)
---------------------------------
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.phaseconverter.com/ElectricMotor.html
Anyone have experience with this supplier?
--T
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Subject: Where Have All the Bees Gone?
Neither they nor their ethanol reside on the EV list. :p
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just wondering what tolerance folks are using on their Zeners.
1% or 5%? Would a 10% differential between two +/- 5% Zeners on batteries with
the same SOC, be enough to cause variances in the observable light coming from
the lamps?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 1:15 pm
Subject: Re: Zener reg question
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:17:12 AM
> Subject: Re: Zener reg question
>
> "I'd measure the voltage across each battery when you see the
> lamps at
> different brightnesses. You should find that the dimmer one is at
> a
> lower voltage, evidence that it is taking more charging current to
> reach
> the same state of charge as the other two."
>
>
> Lee, this is what I've done and the most positive battery is
> always .1 volt lower than the middle battery which is always .1
> volt lower than the most negative battery. These readings were
> taken during charging. After removing the charging current and
> allowing overnight rest, the first two batteries in the string
> read equal (my meter has .1 volt resolution) and the most positive
> battery reads .1 volt lower. The charging algirithm allows for
> multi-hour charging at Absorb levels and I would have thought that
> would be enough time to equalize out.
>
> I'll keep monitoring and will try an additional bulb in parallel
> to see if letting more current bypass helps. It just seems
> bizarre that the most negative battery is always better charged
> than the most positive battery. These are pretty chunky Group 31
> AGM's (the same battery Cor has in his truck).
>
> I had fun building the regs. :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I believe the 15%, best case, number stated previously already takes into
>account all the factors you mention. And (my guess) includes a heavy dose
>of optimistic measurements/calculations.
I have seen the numbers from an instrumented EV, and in FTP cycle
driving (the US Federal Test Procedure for light-duty vehicles),
15% energy measured via an amp-hour meter is a very reasonable
regeneration number to use for a BLDC-equipped vehicle and a
battery-to-wheel efficiency in the 70% region. The better the
tyres, transmission fluid, couplings - the higher that ratio
will be. 'At the wheel' tests indicate the energy recovered from
a typical car's inerta *during an FTP test cycle* is about 30%.
But to provide that energy from the battery, you send it there
at an efficiency of around 70%, return 30% of that, and regen
it at 70%. When you figure that out, it's around 15%.
If your driving cycle is *not* an FTP test cycle, then your
mileage may vary - significantly.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 192V 1000A AGM's in my truck made it fast.
The 120V 400A GC's make it slow.
I would say 144V to 156V @ 500A to 600A in a small pickup would make it a
reasonable performer.
You will notice a difference just going from 120V to 156V
----- Original Message -----
From: Matt Kenigson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 1:14 pm
Subject: Buying new batteries, maybe more
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Howdy all,
>
> Well, I'm finally ready to buy my new pack. I may be upgrading the
> controller and possibly the charger, too. Currently, I have a
> 120V pack of
> badly abused T-125s. I'm thinking of getting more of the same
> since I'm
> still fairly green and they seem to be forgiving, but I'm open to
> suggestions. My plans are eventually to go up to a 156V pack so I'm
> seriously thinking about changing it all now. Now, if I end up
> with a more
> powerful controller I understand it might make sense to go with
> AGMs so I
> can take full advantage of the controller.
>
> Would it make sense to go with a 120V pack for now and grow it
> later, or
> should I go ahead and try to do it all now while I'm getting the
> new pack?
> What batteries do you guys recommend in either scenario? I'm
> willing to
> spend around $2-3K on the pack (unless there is an amazing deal
> with another
> chemistry) and I figure if I do the controller and charger I'm
> probablylooking at another $2-3K. The charger might be a must-
> have since I'd
> probably have less chance of killing my second pack with a smarter
> charger.
> So, lots of choices, lots of decisions to make. I'm being
> diligent and
> doing research but I'm curious as to what some of you suggest,
> since many of
> you have quite a bit of experience with this type of transition.
>
> You can see what I've currently got on my album page. Thanks!
>
> Matt Kenigson
> http://austinev.org/evalbum/882
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Matt,
Go with the 156 V pack so all the manuf. dates are all the same. Make sure
when you order the batteries, specific that they will be all the same date
stamp. This forces the dealer to order a pallet load of 50 batteries. Best
to do this now in the spring, so they normally will stock these type of
batteries for golf carts.
Also specific that you want all your 26 batteries balance in with of 0.01
volt of each over. You can do this yourself when the batteries are deliver
to the dealer, take a voltage reading of the best 26 batteries out of the
50.
Also look to see if any of the positive post are darker then the rest of the
batteries. If they are, it means the acid is seeping up between the battery
post seal. This is sometimes cause by the weight of the batteries on top of
each other when ship.
This positive post darking may not show up latter after you charge the
battery, so tell the dealer if it does, you want to trade it for one of the
same dated battery in that group.
Also check to see if the electrolyte level is to the bottom of the fill
neck. If some are not, than have the dealer finish the fill with
electrolyte. Do not add water, as where it will weaken the electrolyte in
that cell. If they are all low, than you have the option of leaving it
there and record that level, so you do not go above the original level or
have the dealer finish filling to the proper level.
It is best to not have the battery manufacture date not more than 2 weeks
old. Do not mix the same type of battery that is in stock, or some that may
be store in a warehouse and factory fresh ones. When I order my first 6
volts, they mix in different date type, where ten of them was in storage for
over 9 months. These 10 blew up all at once, which I put a load on them.
Keep a battery record on them very closely for the first year, recording the
voltage difference between the batteries, the monthly load testing, monthly
electrolyte level check, monthly specific gravity check and post condition.
If any of these are below the standard specifications as outline in the
Trojan Maintenance WEB Site, than make sure you trade that one before one
year of your usage, not the one year from the date that is stamp on the
battery.
I always have at least one that does not come up to specs. and inwith a year
you get a free replacement and than its pro rated after that.
Also when install the links, check the recommended torque rating with a
insulated Inch Pound torque wrench. Normally a post type may range from 50
to 75 inch pounds and others type of post may be up to 100 inch pounds. If
your specifications call for a range of 60 to 75 inch lbs, I always choose
the lowest torque value, because some post may not take the highest value.
I had one battery that could not take the highest torque value which cause
the post to mushroom. I had them replace that battery.
Also, it is best to have individual battery caps with a o-ring ring instead
of a gang type of cap. I had gang type caps, and the batteries seem to be
wet on top all the time and the voltage tracking to the other batteries was
very bad. Could even see arcing between the batteries when the lights were
off.
If you use the Trojan T's batteries, and read the recommended battery care
section the the Trojan WEB site, then you should get a very long life with
these type of batteries, of course very few EV'ers will not follow these
recommendations and live with the shorter life.
Here's what I do with my Trojan T-145's. Never discharge them below 75% or
above 95% State of Charge except to 100% SOC once every four months and
water them at the same time.
These batteries are rated at 260 AH at 13.5 amps at a 20 hour rating, so
they are derated to 183 AH at 75 amps for 145 minutes. The maximum in draw
from them is about 1/5 of the 260 Ah or about 50 amps before I charge them.
The maximum I charge the batteries at one time is for only 60 minutes in a
day, even if there not up to 95% SOC. I will then finish the charging in
with a day or so to 95%.
I am now going over 6 years with these batteries and the voltage is still in
balance for 26 batteries of 0.01 and four a 0.02. According to the Trojan
Maintenance Guild, it is recommended to balance these type of batteries when
then get 5% out of balance or .05 x 6 = 0.3 volts if you stay above 50% DOD.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 4:50 PM
Subject: Buying new batteries, maybe more
> Howdy all,
>
> Well, I'm finally ready to buy my new pack. I may be upgrading the
> controller and possibly the charger, too. Currently, I have a 120V pack
> of
> badly abused T-125s. I'm thinking of getting more of the same since I'm
> still fairly green and they seem to be forgiving, but I'm open to
> suggestions. My plans are eventually to go up to a 156V pack so I'm
> seriously thinking about changing it all now. Now, if I end up with a
> more
> powerful controller I understand it might make sense to go with AGMs so I
> can take full advantage of the controller.
>
> Would it make sense to go with a 120V pack for now and grow it later, or
> should I go ahead and try to do it all now while I'm getting the new pack?
> What batteries do you guys recommend in either scenario? I'm willing to
> spend around $2-3K on the pack (unless there is an amazing deal with
> another
> chemistry) and I figure if I do the controller and charger I'm probably
> looking at another $2-3K. The charger might be a must-have since I'd
> probably have less chance of killing my second pack with a smarter
> charger.
>
> So, lots of choices, lots of decisions to make. I'm being diligent and
> doing research but I'm curious as to what some of you suggest, since many
> of
> you have quite a bit of experience with this type of transition.
>
> You can see what I've currently got on my album page. Thanks!
>
> Matt Kenigson
> http://austinev.org/evalbum/882
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 11, 2007, at 2:12 PM, Frank John wrote:
I'll keep monitoring and will try an additional bulb in parallel to
see if letting more current bypass helps. It just seems bizarre that
the most negative battery is always better charged than the most
positive battery. These are pretty chunky Group 31 AGM's (the same
battery Cor has in his truck).
I had fun building the regs. :)
Before adding another bulb check the bulbs you are using. You could fry
the zeners if the current through them is to high. You can install 2
sets of regs per battery if you want, but adding light bulbs to the
first set increases the current through the zeners. 5 watts at 6.8
volts is slightly less than 3/4 amp (and they better be cooled great if
you expect a 5 watt zener to take that for long.)
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I tend to agree with you John. I personally think it is simply _poor_ that
after all those years, we still don't have access to reasonably priced DC
technology that offers regen. Even if it's only to support those brakes
wasting all that valuable energy while decelerating the lead sled.
Regen doesn't make sense? Look at my brake pads :)
mm/
> and yet its my impression that the new hybrid trucks get most or all of
> their increased efficiency from regen. Is it a
> matter of their far-greater mass? Don't the car hybrids gain a lot of
> efficiency in city driving from regen? Do they
> just have more sophisticated systems?
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>>
>> That's because the "benifits" are generally negligible. ...
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have room for more batteries (under the hood?), the 1231 controller will
give 25% output improvement over the 1221 and (I think) it's rated for 180
VDC. AGM's should have some type of BMS so this may add cost depending on
which scheme you choose to follow (bypass reg or active balance are the choices
I know about). I'm pretty sure that floodies will eat up your budget and AGM's
are pretty expensive these days...
----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Kenigson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2007 6:50:17 PM
Subject: Buying new batteries, maybe more
Howdy all,
Well, I'm finally ready to buy my new pack. I may be upgrading the
controller and possibly the charger, too. Currently, I have a 120V pack of
badly abused T-125s. I'm thinking of getting more of the same since I'm
still fairly green and they seem to be forgiving, but I'm open to
suggestions. My plans are eventually to go up to a 156V pack so I'm
seriously thinking about changing it all now. Now, if I end up with a more
powerful controller I understand it might make sense to go with AGMs so I
can take full advantage of the controller.
Would it make sense to go with a 120V pack for now and grow it later, or
should I go ahead and try to do it all now while I'm getting the new pack?
What batteries do you guys recommend in either scenario? I'm willing to
spend around $2-3K on the pack (unless there is an amazing deal with another
chemistry) and I figure if I do the controller and charger I'm probably
looking at another $2-3K. The charger might be a must-have since I'd
probably have less chance of killing my second pack with a smarter charger.
So, lots of choices, lots of decisions to make. I'm being diligent and
doing research but I'm curious as to what some of you suggest, since many of
you have quite a bit of experience with this type of transition.
You can see what I've currently got on my album page. Thanks!
Matt Kenigson
http://austinev.org/evalbum/882
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--- Begin Message ---
Aaahhh! That would have been embarrassing. Good catch! (and thanks)
----- Original Message ----
From: Paul G. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 6:41:46 PM
Subject: Re: Zener reg question
On Apr 11, 2007, at 2:12 PM, Frank John wrote:
> I'll keep monitoring and will try an additional bulb in parallel to
> see if letting more current bypass helps. It just seems bizarre that
> the most negative battery is always better charged than the most
> positive battery. These are pretty chunky Group 31 AGM's (the same
> battery Cor has in his truck).
>
> I had fun building the regs. :)
Before adding another bulb check the bulbs you are using. You could fry
the zeners if the current through them is to high. You can install 2
sets of regs per battery if you want, but adding light bulbs to the
first set increases the current through the zeners. 5 watts at 6.8
volts is slightly less than 3/4 amp (and they better be cooled great if
you expect a 5 watt zener to take that for long.)
Paul
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--- Begin Message ---
john fisher wrote:
Danny I don't think you got the gist of my suggested design.
It's just a lightweight pluggable hybrid. Geo metros are not in the
picture for my project as they (and all OEM cars) are too heavy.
and yes, 45 +- people who may not have read the whole thread, have
already pointed out that commercial CARB certified stationary engines
are still pretty dirty compared to cars.
It's a busy list, John. Folks don't all have enough time to read and
remember it all. It's not clear exactly what sort of vehicle you have in
mind. Also, some people are answering in the general case to apply to
many readers; not just your situation.
Propane powered cars have much better emissions than their gasoline
versions, but of course we also know you can buy ULEV gas cars today.
Propane seems slightly better at greenhouse gases, but emissions of
propane powered gensets are as yet unknown to me. Possible use of
catalytic converter also unknown in effect.
Propane emissions are clearly less, or they wouldn't run propane powered
fork lifts indoors. Also, emission controls like catalytic converters
can be applied to any size engine. I would guess that the smaller the
vehicle, the lower its total emissions should be.
So, maybe by scaling the size of the vehicle down, you can use a small
enough ICE to make its emissions low. After all, how bad could the
emissions be for those Shell EcoMarathon cars that get 10,000 mpg?
Add a hybrid pack, and you might have a vehicle that can be driven in
normal traffic speeds, and still gets thousands of miles per gallon with
low emissions.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 4/11/07 2:13:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: RE: Future Killacycle VIDEOS - Please ??
Date: 4/11/07 2:13:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Dube)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
We would love to have a team of professional videographers and
photographers swarming over the track for every run down the strip.
The reality is that we operate on a shoestring budget. We do the best
we can with the resources available to us.
For example, each member of the pit crew (with access to the track)
at this AHDRA event cost me $90 out of my own pocket. We all pay our
own travel and food expenses. The KillaCycle team members pay for
everything but the batteries out of their own pockets. We are
ordinary folks with ordinary paychecks working full-time jobs while
doing all this in our "spare" time with our "spare" money. We are
doing the best that we can.
Bill Dube' >>
And a good job at that Bill.I think a lot of folks here think we are
sponsored to race our fast EVs, but in reality we do pay out of our own pockets
99% of
the time. Dennis Berube </HTML>
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--- Begin Message ---
> Just for my info:
> How is the law forbidding an EV conversion?
It does NOT forbit conversion, it prohibits un-certified individuals from
DOING the conversion.
Just more sillinesss from law makers. Apparently the people in charge of
certifying people also think it's silly, because from what I've read, it's
pretty easy to get certified.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---
>after all those years, we still don't have access to reasonably priced DC
>technology that offers regen. ...
Or why don't we have reasonably priced AC technology?
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt Kenigson wrote:
> Well, I'm finally ready to buy my new pack.
Nice looking truck; please don't stuff batteries under the hood and
destroy the clean, empty look! ;^>
What sort of range do you need? You mention that at present you're up
to about 4mi from the present pack, and hope/plan to use the vehicle to
commute eventually, but don't mention what range you need to make that
commute.
I think you need to rethink your upgrade budget; if you go up to 156V,
you must replace the controller and charger (I don't think the BC20 can
make the stretch up to 156V), and probably the Sevcon DC/DC also (hope
you noted the specs off the label before the seller cleaned it ;^).
There really isn't any point replacing the controller with anything but
a Zilla (your only other option is a new "DCP" Raptor 1200), and a Z1K
LV runs about $2k, and since it tops out at 156V you'd probably be wise
to go for the HV (up to 300V) model instead which pushes the controller
cost to just over $2.5k.
The lead time for a Zilla is about 6months, so if you're ready to buy
batteries now either you will have to hold off on the voltage upgrade or
buy a DCP controller instead (bearing in mind that it tops out at 156V
so if you later decide you want just a "bit" more performance you'll be
selling it to buy that Zilla anyway ;^).
I'd suggest that you buy the entire pack at the same time, and use the
entire pack (i.e. don't buy 120V now and add 36V later or buy 156V now
and only run 120V for 6mo while you wait for a new controller).
Whether you go with AGMs or not, your vehicle performance will benefit
from either a DCP or Zilla controller. With either you can limit the
battery current to protect floodies without sacrificing the much
improved low speed torque that these higher (motor) current controllers
offer.
Of course, if you are only getting 4mi from your present pack of T125s,
then even with the Curtis you should notice a significant performance
improvement just by installing a fresh pack.
The floodeds are heavy and take up a fair amount of real estate; from
the sounds of it, your present pack probably consumes your entire pickup
box. If you don't need the range that a 6V flooded pack would offer
(probably about 30-40mi), then a set of 12V batteries would lighten the
vehicle and allow you to move the battery weight to just behind the cab
for better handling. Performance (acceleration, handling) would improve
with the lighter pack. Going to 12V batteries needn't mean going to
AGMs, although this would result in the greatest performance
improvement. US Battery offers a 12V flooded traction battery, the
EV145, and Trojan offers a couple of 12V flooded traction batteries
based on the T105 plates (T1275, J150). A 120V pack of one of these
would lighten the vehicle and allow you to continue using your present
charger, DC/DC, and controller while enjoying better performance than
you presently have.
If you switch to AGMs, I would suggest using a single string rather than
buddy pairs of smaller batteries. Optimas are a proven choice for high
current applications, but come in only two sizes: D34 (55Ah) and D31
(75Ah) forcing one to use buddy pairs if greater capacity is needed.
For lower current applications other brands may last acceptably, and are
available in a wider range of sizes. Some on the EVDL have been using
the UB12100 from Universal Battery with success in higher voltage (lower
current) applications. I'm presently cycling some EV34As from Discover
Energy (other than the Hawker-esque threaded insert terminals they are a
slightly heavier, slightly greater capacity drop-in replacement for the
D34 Optima, at least where the Optima's high current capability is not
required). Canadian Electric Vehicles has seen good performance from
Discover's EV31As in a recent Dodge Neon conversion.
Should you switch to AGMs, you *may* be able to continue using your
present charger, but would definitely need to add Rudman regs to protect
the batteries. The Mk2B lists for $45/ea, so $450 for a 120V pack (10x
12V). If you decided to upgrade the charger now also, your $2k budget
would allow for a PFC20 and the regs.
Assuming your range requirement doesn't require lugging a full set of 6V
floodies around, I'd replace the pack with a lighter 120V set of flooded
12Vers and get on the Z1k waiting list. When this set wears out/dies
you could replace it with a set of AGMs to take more advantage of the
performance available with the Z1k, or with another set of 6V or 12V
floodies if you find that range is more of an issue than performance
once you see what the truck does with a healthy set of batteries.
If your range requirements are quite a bit less than what a set of 6V
floodeds would provide, you might go for a 120V set of AGMs with a PFC20
and set of Mk2B regs now. You'd get all the performance that your
Curtis is capable of, and if you find it isn't enough, then get on the
Zilla waiting list when your budget allows.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Propane powered cars have much better emissions than their gasoline
> versions, but of course we also know you can buy
Just to reiterate, Propane powered cars CAN have lower emmission, however
this is not an automatic assumption. They can also have HIGHER
emmissions, in fact most of the conversions tested in the late '80s early
'90s had HIGHER emmissions, which is why EPA now prohibits uncertified
conversions.
> effect. Hydrogen is still too expensive, though
> definitely possible.
Almost all hydrogen produced today is made from fossil fuels, IIRC primarily
from Natural Gas.
If you are planning on using H2 to power hybrid EV, and you are concerned
about the pollution, you might also look into how much (if any) pollution
is generated converting NG to H2.
> BTW EVs listed as worst possible vehicle for sulfur dioxide emissions, but
> best for most others, including greenhouse gases.
Only when coal powered. Currently the majority of on-road EVs reside in
states where Hydropower dominates.
EVs have the advantage of the potential for running on pure renewable
and/or non-polluting energy sources. I.e. they can run on sunshine, wind,
and/or rain.
> units for me to build. So I am kinda stuck if the genset won't work - I'll
> probably give up and try to ride my bicycle a
> lot more, with some motorcycle trips, or go on to an ultra-lightweight
> quadracycle/tadpole trike design. I could build a
> high-mileage slow car too, but thats not very exciting.
Hmm, not that riding a bicycle is a bad idea. Far from it, it's probably
the least polluting and healthy method of transport possible. However, if
a bicycle can meet your needs, I fail to see how an EV could not. It's a
rare individual who can pedal more on a daily basis than you can go in an
EV.
The ultra-light idea has a lot of merit. I'd stay away from the quadra
cycle however, since it's difficult to do that legally.
Vehicles with 4 wheels and capable of speeds in excess of 20 mph are
legally considered automobiles and generally have to meet federal safety
standards, or at least those ones that your local government has accepted.
If it's top speed is more than 20mph, but less than 25mph, then you can
register it as a LSV and avoid some of the more onerous regulations (air
bags, side impact protection, etc.). They are also prohibited on streets
with speedlimits above 35 mph.
However, why on earth would you want to build a vehicle with a top speed
of 25 mph?
If it only has three wheels, then MOST states consider it to be a
motorcycle and you only have to meet the motorcycle safety standards.
Mostly just lights, indicators, and mirrors.
However, check your local regulations. Some states don't allow three
wheelers at all. Some do, but have odd requirements. I.e. Ohio allows
two rear wheels, but not two front wheels. Some states require that you
"straddle" the vehicle, or that it has a saddle, not a seat, etc.
--
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junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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