EV Digest 6884
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: gas taxes...
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Solar tonneau cover
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) How the Prius Works (was: EV achilles' heel)
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV achilles' heel
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) used zivan 36 Volt
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: EV achilles' heel
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Safety of inverter/motor lockup
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) What batteries to try next?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Teenager with EV's on the brain
by "Amy DeMaagd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: How the Prius Works
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: What batteries to try next?
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Teenager with EV's on the brain
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think the GPS thing will ever kick off. Its not stable enough
to use as a mileage meter. Mine cuts out all the time when I am under
trees, bridges, tunnels, and in New York City (signal blocked by all
those huge buildings). An inertia one would work better or in the case
of OBDII vehicles, just ask the computer. It calculates it already
based on the speed sensor.
I disagree on the EV shouldn't be judged the same as a hummer. If you
go by a weight/miles driven = damage to roads type scenario the EV and
the Hummer make about the same amount of damage since they both weigh a
lot. Cars like the Corbin, Tesla, and others using LiOn packs will come
in much lower in weight and would pay a lot less.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 14:46
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: gas taxes...
That works into the growing plans for a government GPS system installed
in every vehicle that assesses a per-mile tax instead of a fuel tax.
Easy to see that it is impossible to guarantee your behavior is not
being recorded and tracked.
This system would result in an EV being taxed at the same rate as a
Hummer and would end this one area of tax incentive to use less fuel.
I'm sure GM is endorsing the concept because high consumption vehicles
have the highest profit margins.
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>1) guy converts diesel to run on veggie oil.
>2) NC tax people come after him, wanting his first born, for "tax"
>reasons.
>
>The gist of my concern (in the article) is:
>
>Folks that use the road, have to pay road-use taxes, which are bundled
>into the price of gasoline and diesel.
>Of course, Electric Vehicles don't pay this tax....because we don't use
>gasoline.
>Moreover, vehicles that get better fuel economy pay less tax (I found
>an article about that - be prepared in the future for the DMV to begin
>retrieving our odometer readings for miles-driven taxation purposes;
>who knows, probably already happens in some states, and certainly does
>for "business" or personally owned "business use" vehicles).
>
>
>Here's the math (its simple, even I can do it).
>Average miles traveled: 12000
>Average MPG (for my camry): 22
>Thats ~ 545 gallons.
>
>NC charges 29.9 cents a gallon (according to the article).
>(I'm sure its more like 29.999 cents)
>.299 * 545 = ~ 162...
>Thats $162 a year in taxes (NC State)
>This website
>http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp
>indicates Federal tax is 18.4 cents per gallon.
>18.4 * 545 = ~100.28
>
>(What are the federal and state taxes on our electric bill? I donno,
>haven't looked; I would guess that this *could* be subtracted, to keep
>the SOBs in government totally honest).
>(note: I don't like big government; I could go on, but I doubt you'd
>appreciate it).
>
>Anyway.
>
>The article states that this guy is getting charged $1000 fine, for NC
>state taxes (what about county? city?).
>
>Either way, I'm concerned.
>(Finally) - Here's my question:
>
>Are the Tax people going to come after us (I use "us" as a generic
>term; us EVers, or more specifically, us NC EVers...) because uncle
>thief wants more tax revenue?
>What recourse do we have (federally, or statewise) - if any?
>Has anyone heard of this happening before?
>Do we get rewarded (pay less tax) because we're trying to "save the
>environment" - "protect the US from terrorists by not giving them
money"
>(etc, pick a reason for why you drive electric).
>
>Additional comments, and Charlotte Observer article below...
>
>I'd like to own a gas station, and say "Gasoline, $2.00 a gallon, PLUS
>TAX (to let people know how much the government gets).
>If folks knew how much tax they paid, think they'd get a little upset?
>(I'm sure thats why the politicos hide as much tax as they can).
>
>Note: I'm not trying to "get one over on the government that provides
>the roads" - I should "help pay" for the road. Not a problem.
>Please don't carp about me trying to avoid "paying my fair share" -
>What I don't want is for the evil succubus tax person to come after me
>3 years hence, and decide I should pay $5k in taxes, and another $10k
>in fines.
>
>
>
>http://www.charlotte.com/112/story/153260.html
>
>
>
>
>THOSE WHO MAKE THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENT-FRIENDLY GAS CAN AVOID PAIN AT THE
>PUMP BUT NOT THE TAXES.
>A price to pay for alternative fuels
>BRUCE HENDERSON
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Bob Teixeira re-applies a sticker touting an alternative fuel he uses
>in his car. He plans to fight to change fuel-tax laws that have hit his
>wallet.Bob Teixeira decided it was time to take a stand against U.S.
>dependence on foreign oil.
>
>So last fall the Charlotte musician and guitar instructor spent $1,200
>to convert his 1981 diesel Mercedes to run on vegetable oil. He bought
>soybean oil in 5-gallon jugs at Costco, spending about 30 percent more
>than diesel would cost.
>
>His reward, from a state that heavily promotes alternative fuels: a
>$1,000 fine last month for not paying motor fuel taxes.
>
>He's been told to expect another $1,000 fine from the federal
government.
>
>And to legally use veggie oil, state officials told him, he would have
>to first post a $2,500 bond.
>
>Teixeira is one of a growing number of fuel-it-yourselfers -- backyard
>brewers who recycle restaurant grease or make moonshine for their car
>tanks. They do it to save money, reduce pollution or thumb their noses
>at oil sheiks.
>
>They're also caught in a web of little-known state laws that can stifle
>energy independence.
>
>State Sen. Stan Bingham, R-Davidson, is known around Raleigh for his
>diesel Volkswagen fueled by used soybean oil. The car sports a
>"Goodbye, OPEC" sign.
>
>"If somebody was going to go to this much trouble to drive around in a
>car that uses soybean oil, they ought to be exempt" from state taxes,
he said.
>
>The N.C. Department of Revenue, which fined Teixeira, has asked
>legislators to waive the $2,500 bond for small fuel users. The
>department also told Teixeira, after the Observer asked about his case
>this week, that it will compromise on his fine.
>
>But officials say they'll keep pursuing taxes on all fuels used in
>highway vehicles. With its 29.9-cent a gallon gas tax, the state
>collects $1.2 billion each year to pay for road construction.
>
>"With the high cost of fuel right now, the department does recognize
>that a lot of people are looking for relief," said Reggie Little,
>assistant director of the motor fuel taxes division. "We're not here to
>hurt the small guy, we're just trying to make sure that the playing
>field is level."
>
>Use promoted, little regulation
>
>State policies firmly endorse alternative fuels.In 2005 legislators
>directed state agencies to replace 20 percent of their annual petroleum
>use with alternatives by 2010. About 6,000 of the state's 8,500
>vehicles are equipped to use ethanol. The state fleet also includes
>about 135 gas-electric hybrids.
>
>Few states, however, are prepared to regulate the new fuels, says the
>National VegOil Board, which promotes vegetable oil fuel.
>
>"State offices do not have the forms to appropriately and fairly deal
>with VegOil, nor the staff to enforce the non-existent forms," said
>director Cynthia Shelton. "So either they tell people inquiring about
>compliance to get lost, or they make them jump through a bunch of
arbitrary hoops."
>
>Outraged Illinois legislators this spring quickly waived that state's
>$2,500 bond requirement when an elderly man was nabbed for using waste
>vegetable oil.
>
>In the mountain district of state Sen. John Snow, D-Cherokee,
>home-brewed ethanol was once known as moonshine. But a couple of
>constituents who made it for fuel have been fined for the same tax
>violation that got Teixeira in trouble.
>
>Snow has introduced several bills to promote biodiesel, which under
>state law includes vegetable oil.
>
>"One of the biggest problems in the state is a real lack of information
>for people who want to use alternative fuels," said Snow's research
>assistant, Jonathan Ducote. "It's just now appearing on (regulators')
>radar."
>
>Done in by bumper sticker
>
>Teixeira's story began near Lowe's Motor Speedway on May 14. As
>recreational vehicles streamed in for race week, revenue investigators
>were checking fuel tanks of diesel RVs for illegal fuel.
>
>The investigators quickly spotted Teixeira's passing bumper sticker:
>"Powered by 100% vegetable oil."
>
>"It was like some twist of fate that put me there," he said. "It was
>like I was asking for them to stop me."
>
>Teixeira says revenue officials are just doing their jobs. But he
>thinks it's unfair that he was lumped with people who purposely try to
>avoid fuel taxes.
>
>"Individuals who are trying to do the right thing environmentally
>cannot and should not continue to take this kind of financial hit," he
wrote Gov.
>Mike Easley.
>
>Teixeira says he'll pay the state fine and apply for a state fuel
license.
>But pumping regular diesel again "broke my heart."
>
>"I'm ready to get myself legal," he said, "and start using vegetable
>oil again."
>
>Alternative Fuel Vehicles*
>
>North CarolinaDiesel 118,479
>
>Flex fuel 121,547
>
>(ethanol capable)
>
>Hybrid 11,758
>
>Total 251,784
>
>South Carolina
>
>Diesel 54,786
>
>Flex fuel 68,303
>
>Hybrid 3,264
>
>Total 126,353
>
>*Registered as of July 2006
>
>SOURCE: Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers
>
>More on Fuel Taxes
>
>Piedmont Biofuels, a biodiesel cooperative in Pittsboro, posts links to
>state tax laws on its Web site: http://biofuels.coop/general
>
>-information/taxes//. The N.C. Department of Revenue's motor fuels tax
>division has a toll-free number: 877-308-9092.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That would work. I remember when I worked at a government research
job, that I asked if I could charge my EV at work (I didn't have one
at the time, but was going to buy one). They said no plugging into
the building, but we had a bunch of PV experiments sitting around not
powering anything that I could plug into. That would be fine, since
the government didn't own the electricity from those.... ended up
getting laid off instead of buying the EV then, but I still thought it
was funny that I was allowed to use solar power to charge it, but not
coal power.
Z
On 6/13/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have seen some people who park a solar array at work on a trailer that
they plug into when they get there. That way the 8 hours the car sits
in the parking lot it is charged from the array.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 14:30
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Solar tonneau cover
The problem with charging directly from solar is that you can only
charge when it is sunny. And if you are NOT charging when it is sunny,
you are wasting solar electricity that you paid for....
If the utility allows you to connect, that system will be way cheaper.
If they don't, then you may have to design a system that charges the
car directly from solar, and plan on it being at home during the day
instead of charging at night.
Z
On 6/13/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark,
>
> With the panels on your house, do you have the 240V hooked
> directly to your pack or do you make AC and then power a charger with
> that? How long does it take to charge your EV with it?
>
> jody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Mark Hastings
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 13:42
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Solar tonneau cover
>
> Not sure if this is currently made and I'm sure it isn't the only way
> but has some good info.
> http://cafeelectric.com/SolarCharge/index.html.
>
>
> --- Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I know this will not increase range dramatically but I was wondering
> > if you were to put a solar array on the tonneau cover of your truck
> > how would you charge the pack? Would you make it the same voltage as
> > the pack and then just hook it to each end of the string so it was
> > feeding current to the battery or if you were driving to the motor?
> > Or would you need to plug it into a charger?
> >
> > Tehben
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good idea. I'd like to do something like this for next year's Power
of DC. We've been using a big diesel 70 KW generator for the past 7
years. No one has said anything yet about it but it would be nice to
have alternatives even if the generator could use biodiesel.
I have a lead on a solar trailer with an array that someone may be
able to get and we may try to get BP Solar involved early on in 2008.
They are actually just down the road from Hagerstown in Frederick.
Even a little bit of a trickle charge should help to top the cars off.
Chip
On Jun 13, 2007, at 2:46 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: June 13, 2007 2:35:10 PM EDT
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Solar tonneau cover
I have seen some people who park a solar array at work on a trailer
that
they plug into when they get there. That way the 8 hours the car sits
in the parking lot it is charged from the array.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In order to minimize weight, I'd go the other way around. How many kWh will
I come up short in making the journey without a generator. How much time
should it take to complete the trip. How big of a generator do I need to
make up the difference in kWh in that time?
If you try to size the generator to run the car after the battery is down,
it's a whole lot bigger and heavier than if you just use it to supply part
of the power required the whole way, reduce the draw on the batteries (which
makes them more efficient), and delay the point where the battery is kaput
to the time you arrive back home.
In my case, to drive forever, or run on generator after the batteries are
flat, I'd need at least 15kW continuous if Stefan's numbers are in the ball
park. But to get to my parents place and back, if I started the generator
when I left and reduced battery use the whole way, I could probably use a
generator well less than 5kW and still make the trip (since it's charging
while I'm parked there and stopped at lights).
I'd venture a wild guess that if you try to go non-stop more than 2x the
distance you could go on battery alone, you may as well drive a gasser,
because carrying the weight of both EV and gasser hardware is going to kill
efficiency. Stefan's SWAG numbers seem to bear that out. Afterall, the
whole point is to replace gallons with kWh, right? If you use up your kWh
faster hauling the generator, and then burn more gallons hauling the
batteries, what have you gained? I think you'd only have a net gain for a
small range extension with a lightweight generator.
Spending the money on lithiums instead of the generator is starting to look
good.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
even if true, I don't want to charge the batteries using the ice. it is to
be used only in the event you have to go further than battery capacity. it
doesn't make sense to charge batteries with fossil fuel. when your journey
is done you recharge the car using normal means. it is a range extender.
will only run when the battery is dry. and with electric transmission
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just to clarify, the Prius doesn't have a separate CVT. The CVT *is* the
motor/generators!
There are 2 motor/generators, one is on the flywheel and always runs when
the ICE runs. The other is connected mechanically in series with the first
one. This is done through a "backwards" differential. Think ICE &
motor/gen attached to where one wheel would be on a normal rear end, and on
the other wheel side, just a large electric motor/gen. Where the driveshaft
would normally connect is instead the input to another differential, which
is the actual one that drives the front wheels.
By shuffling power between the 2 motor/gens you effectively have a CVT.
It's a totally ingenious system!
The motor/gens are surprisingly small and oil cooled. They have high
voltage windings on them. The voltage used is 500v which comes from a
bi-directional DC-DC converter as the battery is only a little more than
200v. The inverter box under the hood contains this DC-DC converter, a
smaller DC-DC converter to keep the aux 12v battery charged, and 3 IGBT
based inverters. 2 larger ones for the 2 motor/gens and 1 small one for the
electric AC compressor.
This system impresses the hell out of me, so I don't mind sharing my
knowledge about it.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel
The prius ICE runs at one specific rpm and uses a cvt arrangement to
power the vehicle. It also powers a 53K generator while doing that. If
you want to run a generator that is capable of charging the pack AND
pushing the vehicle it will have to be more than the average current
draw of the system. If cruising on EV only takes 200 amps then you will
need to generate close to 300 (100 for the extra weight of the generator
system) to be able to drive on the gen. The pusher is easily capable of
pushing the car with the weight, it might be able to run the generator
also but it might affect the fuel mileage so much that it is actually
more expensive than just driving an ICE vehicle where you want to go.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 13:02
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
Marty Hewes skrev:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator that could
double as a backup for the house or shop during a power failure. But
don't kid yourself, it takes a big generator to extend range
significantly,
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't 30Kw
generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.. there are stock
250cc standard motorcycle motors that make around 30horses afaik. turbo
can lift it higher
and the setup is less efficient than driving a gas car.
how do you explain the prius then. my knowledge is tentative but I get
the impression that normal gas driving doesn't use the motor's least
inefficient point where as a generator could. so at to offset losses in
a seriel arrangement.
the GM volt prototype is the same I believe although we might never get
that if it was up to them
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And wind drag on the generator. On the other hand, if you go 50 miles on
battery, and then 50 miles on generator, you're at 35 MPG average. The
farther you go after the batteries are flat, the lower the average MPG goes
until you approach 17.5.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel
Plus you have to take into account the added 550 pounds of generator
right? And the fuel required for the distance?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stefan Peters
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 14:28
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
Michael Wendell wrote:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't 30Kw
generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the innefficiencies
of an onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this
information in the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to
that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
Might some numbers help to illustrate?
Winco 15KW constant/18KW surge portable (designed to be lightweight)
generator with Vanguard engine (good brand used by many contractors) ->
Brushless design, self regulating
31HP OHV gasoline engine
Keyed electric start
550 lbs
41" x 26.75" x 29"
15 gallon tank
10.5 hours at 50% load
$4999.99 MSRP
Now we take a 300Wh/mile EV (someone correct the armchair figurin' if
necessary) ->
300Wh/mile * 50 miles (50MPH) = 15kWh over the course of an hour = 15kW
(125A @ 120V) to go 50MPH
So... given a *new*, relatively very efficient generator, and a
reasonably efficient EV, we could drive *without* any net charging of
the pack with a fuel efficiency of ->
15 gallons / 5.25 hours (it will actually be less run time then that at
100% load) = 50 miles (1 hour) @ 2.857 gallons an hour = 17.5 MPG
These are simple, straightforward "test of concept" numbers that you can
run with any generator/EV combination using published numbers. And they
give you "better then possible" results, since they do not take into
account rectification and other such losses.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah back to this...
Back in the "old days" before computer controls and well designed
engines, there may have been more significant peak performance points
where a gas engine would be tuned for better performance. Now, not so
much, nothing remarkable anyways. You will need to find enough
performance gain to justify the generator, charger, battery cycle,
controller, and motor losses- that could easily be 40% or more. Unless
you can make a generator 67% more efficient than a car engine you won't
even break even. Additionally any genny you're gonna find is not really
refined to be very efficient- maybe horrifically so. Lacking computer
controls, a catalytic converter or any emissions controls the emissions
are terrible, similar to pre-emissions cars.
The Prius uses a very special engine, the Atkinson cycle. It is more
efficient. However it works best over a limited rpm range and is
incapable of high peak power for its size. The CVT tranny and electric
boost makes up for these deficiencies. However the key of its
performance is NOT the batteries. The key is the unique power plant
technology. The batteries only enable it to be used in a passenger vehicle.
Danny
Marty Hewes skrev:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator that could
double as a backup for the house or shop during a power failure. But
don't kid yourself, it takes a big generator to extend range
significantly,
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't 30Kw
generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.. there are stock
250cc standard motorcycle motors that make around 30horses afaik. turbo
can lift it higher
and the setup is less efficient than driving a gas car.
how do you explain the prius then. my knowledge is tentative but I get
the impression that normal gas driving doesn't use the motor's least
inefficient point where as a generator could. so at to offset losses in
a seriel arrangement.
the GM volt prototype is the same I believe although we might never get
that if it was up to them
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If this fits your application:
I purchased a 220 VAC to 36 VDC Zivan NG-3.
I thought it could be modified to give 156 VDC but was wrong.. max is 48
VDC.
If this fits your application, and you can offer what I paid for it off
ebay, it'll be a savings for you and I. It's at Zivan USA now, so it is
guaranteed to work.
Otherwise I'll probably take the credit he's offereing me towards the
purchase of a new one.
contact me off list,
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The simple answer is: even GM thinks otherwise with their volt prototype.
first you don't want to have to do calculations before driving somewhere
which even requires you to know the distance a priori.
second, since LA EV range is quite limited a road trip would very
quickly exhaust your idea since the generator would have to be able to
provide almost all of it.
third, when you are going to have the extra complexity to compensate for
the current EV weakness, don't make another weakness. it has to be able
to go unlimited or it will be a constant worry for people.
fourth, this is where all the naysaying complacent stagnant
designer/supporters for b2b apps come screaming out from under the
bridge but I don't believe a 30kW combustion generator has to weigh
terribly much. fuel and catalyst included
I reiterate that a 250cc motorcycle motor can have the needed power and
at high rpm/phase velocity the electric generator can be quite small I
believe. vis a vis the tesla roadster motor (which can be taken to
further extremes). and there are other potentially lighter possibilities
such as turbines. I wouldn't be surprised if a 30kW turbine/generator
pair could be done under 1kg if high tech engineered
Dan
Marty Hewes wrote:
In order to minimize weight, I'd go the other way around. How many
kWh will I come up short in making the journey without a generator.
How much time should it take to complete the trip. How big of a
generator do I need to make up the difference in kWh in that time?
If you try to size the generator to run the car after the battery is
down, it's a whole lot bigger and heavier than if you just use it to
supply part of the power required the whole way, reduce the draw on
the batteries (which makes them more efficient), and delay the point
where the battery is kaput to the time you arrive back home.
In my case, to drive forever, or run on generator after the batteries
are flat, I'd need at least 15kW continuous if Stefan's numbers are in
the ball park. But to get to my parents place and back, if I started
the generator when I left and reduced battery use the whole way, I
could probably use a generator well less than 5kW and still make the
trip (since it's charging while I'm parked there and stopped at lights).
I'd venture a wild guess that if you try to go non-stop more than 2x
the distance you could go on battery alone, you may as well drive a
gasser, because carrying the weight of both EV and gasser hardware is
going to kill efficiency. Stefan's SWAG numbers seem to bear that
out. Afterall, the whole point is to replace gallons with kWh,
right? If you use up your kWh faster hauling the generator, and then
burn more gallons hauling the batteries, what have you gained? I
think you'd only have a net gain for a small range extension with a
lightweight generator.
Spending the money on lithiums instead of the generator is starting to
look good.
Marty
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Frederiksen"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
even if true, I don't want to charge the batteries using the ice. it
is to be used only in the event you have to go further than battery
capacity. it doesn't make sense to charge batteries with fossil fuel.
when your journey is done you recharge the car using normal means. it
is a range extender. will only run when the battery is dry. and with
electric transmission
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tehben Dean wrote:
So if 2 legs of the 3-phase fail then there is one DC leg left?
The standard 3-phase H-bridge looks like this (view with a fixed width font)
battery+_________________
| | |
S1 / S3 / S5 /
|__A |__B |__C
| | |
S2 / S4 / S6 /
battery-___|______|______|
S1-S6 are the six switches in the inverter (big IGBTs, MOSFETs, SCRs,
transistors, etc.). A, B, and C are the three-phase AC outputs to the
motor windings -- there is a motor winding between A and B, between B
and C, and between A and C.
In effect, you have a 6-ball juggling act going on here. The juggler
(inverter logic) has to operate the 6 switches at exactly the right
times to make the motor run.
Normally, the logic turns on an upper switch for one phase, and a lower
switch for a *different* phase. For example, to make AC in the motor
winding between A and B, the inverter turns on S1 and S4 so A is +, B is
-; and then turns on S2 and S3 so A is -, B is +. It is doing the same
thing for the other two motor windings, but at different times to create
a "rotating" magnetic field (AB, BC, CA, BA, CB, AC, etc.)
Failures occur if the the switches are ever closed in the wrong
combinations or at the wrong times. For example, if you close S1 and S2
at the same time, you *short the battery* (kaboom). If you close S1 and
S4 for too long (more than a small fraction of a second), you are
applying DC to an AC motor winding -- the current rises to alarming
levels within milliseconds and something goes kaboom.
I have another question. Granted that a 2 leg failure locks the motor
(I just still don't understand how)...
Try this. Get any ordinary 120vac induction motor (a window fan, for
example). Spin it by hand; it spins very easily. You can even short the
two wires, and it still spins easily.
But connect a little bitty 9v transistor radio battery to it, and try to
turn it. It fights like mad! The battery powers the winding with DC, so
it tries to "run" at zero RPM.
With a bigger battery that can supply more current (like a 12v car
battery), the motor gets very difficult to turn, and the motor windings
would overheat and burn up in a short time.
An induction motor doesn't completely lock up; it still has a couple
percent slip even at zero RPM. An AC motor with permanent magnets will
completely lock up and refuse to turn at all.
if the battery was disconnected, then there is no place for the
current to flow so the motor can't do anything but freewheel...
right?
Normally, this is true. But there are some special cases.
Consider my example above; shorting an induction motor causes no
resistance to rotation; it simply freewheels and does nothing. But... if
you connect a *capacitive* load to it, it *will* generate an AC voltage!
Controllers normally have large capacitors across the DC buss. So it is
possible for an induction motor to become a generator if you have the
right kind of failure in an inverter (disconnection of the propulsion
battery, a failed upper switch, and a failed lower switch).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Barkley wrote:
couldn't one pulse the solar panels 12 volts on the transformer 12vac
side, and get 120 vac out, and then rectify that to DC? Just use a
bigger more current capacity transformer for the project.
Yes, that is exactly how an inverter works. An electronic switch does
the pulsing for you. Pulse your 12v on/off 60 times per second, and you
get 120vac 60hz out.
Real inverters use much better transformers, and fairly elaborate
circuitry to get precise control.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Zeke Yewdall wrote:
standard panels are "24 volts" -- If we are looking at a 120 or 144
volt battery pack, we need either least 5 or 6 of these "24 volt"
panels to charge it directly.
Changing voltages is pretty easy. There are thousands of DC/DC
converters on the market that can do this. Basically, it's a switching
power supply that converts one DC voltage into another.
The quick-and-dirty approach is to wire your PV panels for 12v, use them
to power an el-cheapo 12v-to-120vac inverter, and use this 120vac to
power a cheap battery charger. But you'll be throwing about half your
precious PV power away due to these part's low efficiency and lack of
peak point tracking.
A better approach is to get proper PV peak point tracker that can charge
a 12v or 24v battery. Then use a set of relays or switches to route this
power sequentially to each battery or group of batteries in your pack
12v or 24v worth at a time). This approach has very high efficiency, and
is adaptable to any PV array voltage and pack voltage.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, my almost 10-year-old pack of 12v 95ah Concorde AGMs is ready for
retirement. Out of the original 12, only 9 are left. I just lost #10 to
an internal open). The low remaining pack voltage, coupled with the
remaining battery's already low amphour capacity, gives me too little
range to bother with them any more.
So... I'm wondering what kind of batteries to try next. More Concordes
at $340 each? Optima D31's at $270 or so each? Go back to flooded (even
they are around $160 each)? Maybe a cheap set of Sam's Club specials for
$60 each (they won't last long, but the price is low).
Many switch to an "exotic" battery? Thundersky lithiums (but where to
get good ones)? Nicads? Nimh?
I'm open to suggestions! :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay, I've been interested in alternative fuel vehicles for some time
now, and would like to finally commit to building an EV. Despite being
17 and a girl, I am not a total moron. I grew up in a radical custom
car/hot rod restoration shop, and I do have the business on board, so
this is a thoroughly achievable goal, theoretically . Seeing as how I
lack funding, I figured that there were three possible paths to take:
meth lab, prostitution, or a school team. Now, I realize that the
school team suggestion sounds absurd, but it's not about getting money
from the school, it's about getting credibility from being backed by a
community organization, so that people will believe they are
sponsoring something, rather than just giving things to some hack
group of teenagers. Anyways, I need to pitch this idea to my school,
and was wondering if any of you had any resources for that, existing
proposals, etc.
Also, seeing as how the Tour De Sol is now defunct, and the EV
Challenge folks seem to have considerately dropped off the face of the
planet(I guess I shouldn't have expected much from them anyways, I am
from Michigan, which is decidedly north of south.), are there any EV
competitions around? The school would want to have more than an EV
putting around town, they'd want some people to see it, they'd want
some prestige. After all, the majority of the population of this town
does happen to be cows, and I don't think they'd be too impressed,
considering that they do some significant air pollution of their own.
Without even having official backing from the school, we've managed to
get a free MG Midget from an auto auction place, plus a 3 phase AC
motor, and lithium ion batteries(scary, but exciting).
Ahem, I do expect to need plenty of help in the future.
I hope I'm not too obnoxious, and really look forward to getting some input.
Thank you!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(-Phil-) wrote:
Just to clarify, the Prius doesn't have a separate CVT. The CVT *is*
the motor/generators!
By shuffling power between the 2 motor/gens you effectively have a
CVT. It's a totally ingenious system!
aside from the fact that the end result is an expensive ICE car and not
an EV. it's effectively an electric clutch. the design will not survive
and should never have been. if one was conspiratorially inclined (and
one is) one might be suspicious that they intentionally chose a bad
design because it could give the illusion of being environmentally
friendly while still remaining a pure ICE car.
The motor/gens are surprisingly small and oil cooled. They have high
voltage windings on them. The voltage used is 500v which comes from a
bi-directional DC-DC converter as the battery is only a little more
than 200v. The inverter box under the hood contains this DC-DC
converter, a smaller DC-DC converter to keep the aux 12v battery
charged, and 3 IGBT based inverters. 2 larger ones for the 2
motor/gens and 1 small one for the electric AC compressor.
high voltage does appear to be the key. amps are bad
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, The Deka 9A31 Intimidators I bought last year were only $140 ea when the
Optima's I was looking at were near $200 ea. I haven't learned to take care of
them yet to I have them sitting idle in the garage until I figure out the BMS.
The 6V Crown floodies are performing well enough too. I'm getting used to
going slow . I may relegate the Deka's to the Pinto for Test and Tune stuff.
Like you and many others have mentioned over the years the floodeed batteries
are not bad at all.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 12:13 pm
Subject: What batteries to try next?
To: EV list <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Well, my almost 10-year-old pack of 12v 95ah Concorde AGMs is ready
> for
> retirement. Out of the original 12, only 9 are left. I just lost
> #10 to
> an internal open). The low remaining pack voltage, coupled with the
> remaining battery's already low amphour capacity, gives me too
> little
> range to bother with them any more.
>
> So... I'm wondering what kind of batteries to try next. More
> Concordes
> at $340 each? Optima D31's at $270 or so each? Go back to flooded
> (even
> they are around $160 each)? Maybe a cheap set of Sam's Club
> specials for
> $60 each (they won't last long, but the price is low).
>
> Many switch to an "exotic" battery? Thundersky lithiums (but where
> to
> get good ones)? Nicads? Nimh?
>
> I'm open to suggestions! :-)
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like your style. you must be fairly attractive to be able to get
lithium batteries for free :)
regarding those, from what I understand (which is relatively little)
ltihiums are safe if kept reasonable cool (and not penetrated by
conductive pieces). their lifespan is dependent on the same. tesla
motors have a blog to this effect.
don't worry about competitions. if done by a teenage girl, you win by
default and the competition will come to you (local press etc)
I would say keep it simple. cheap lead acid batteries (unless you really
have EV amounts of ready to go lithiums), a (used) curtis controller, a
used DC motor (a somewhat standardardized product) and then leave it at
that. skip the DCDC 12v supply and use a normal car batt for that and
even skip the recharger at first (you have to then manually charge each
battery individually using a standard car batt charger). the simplest
(cheapest) path to victory even if it it will only work for show (due to
the manual recharging)
good luck. you can put a few pictures of what you have so far on a website
nothing fancy needed
Dan
keep it simple...
Amy DeMaagd wrote:
Okay, I've been interested in alternative fuel vehicles for some time
now, and would like to finally commit to building an EV. Despite being
17 and a girl, I am not a total moron. I grew up in a radical custom
car/hot rod restoration shop, and I do have the business on board, so
this is a thoroughly achievable goal, theoretically . Seeing as how I
lack funding, I figured that there were three possible paths to take:
meth lab, prostitution, or a school team. Now, I realize that the
school team suggestion sounds absurd, but it's not about getting money
from the school, it's about getting credibility from being backed by a
community organization, so that people will believe they are
sponsoring something, rather than just giving things to some hack
group of teenagers. Anyways, I need to pitch this idea to my school,
and was wondering if any of you had any resources for that, existing
proposals, etc.
Also, seeing as how the Tour De Sol is now defunct, and the EV
Challenge folks seem to have considerately dropped off the face of the
planet(I guess I shouldn't have expected much from them anyways, I am
from Michigan, which is decidedly north of south.), are there any EV
competitions around? The school would want to have more than an EV
putting around town, they'd want some people to see it, they'd want
some prestige. After all, the majority of the population of this town
does happen to be cows, and I don't think they'd be too impressed,
considering that they do some significant air pollution of their own.
Without even having official backing from the school, we've managed to
get a free MG Midget from an auto auction place, plus a 3 phase AC
motor, and lithium ion batteries(scary, but exciting).
Ahem, I do expect to need plenty of help in the future.
I hope I'm not too obnoxious, and really look forward to getting some
input.
Thank you!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On a smaller scale, you could use a small 12V panel to charge an
accessory battery so you don't have to charge it separately or use a
DC/DC. Would this kind of system be effective?
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
--- End Message ---
