EV Digest 2501
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV's pollute more than ICE (argument)
by Brendan Kirby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV Convoy with Dad
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: cheapest conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: OT Vehicle safety: Bigger isn't better
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV's pollute more than ICE (argument)
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacement?
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV's pollute more than ICE (argument)
by "Clyde R. Visser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) re: cheapest conversion
by "Tony McCormick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacement?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: cheapest conversion
by harsha godavari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) VW Fire Damage Pictures
by "Mark Hastings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
As others have stated, transmission losses are closer to 6% for the power
system.
Perhaps more importantly you can now choose your energy supply with
electric power in many places. I subscribe to a green power program offered
by TVA for the energy for my EV. Its an easy and relatively cheap way to
get around the argument.
Brendan Kirby
At 10:42 AM 12/28/02 -0800, you wrote:
I have a friend who insists that EV's pollute more than ICE. His argument
is that due to transmission line losses and transformer losses in grid
distribution, it takes 2000 watts to get 1000 watts to the EV. Since they
have to generate twice the power, it causes twice the pollution/carbon
dioxide, etc.
Has anyone done the math on this? My argument is that the pollution
generated to get a unit of power (gallon of gas) to an ICE must be huge
when one considers the energy and pollution to get the oil from the well,
refined and to the gas pump.
Can anyone provide hard data so I can put this guy in his place? Where can
I find detailed hard data on the energy cost of getting gasoline to the
pump and how much pollution that creates? Is there any detailed hard data
on transmission line losses and how much is really lost versus what ends
up charging the EV? I'm especially interested in how much power it takes
to refine gasoline and how efficient refineries are in general (and how
much they pollute).
Thanks,
Rick
Brendan Kirby, P.E.
Power Systems Research Program
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
865-576-1768
865-574-5227 Fax
PO Box 2008
MS 6070
Oak Ridge, TN 37831
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Glenn:
We got it from David Franklin @ Toyota of Hollywood- 323.467.6161
Ordered it back in November. They ran out of 2002's and started delivering
2003's to the 2002 customers.
BTW, if you order one by 12/31/02 I think you can still get the $9K
incentive until 3/31/03- after that the incentive is lowered to $5K.
Marv
on 12/28/02 9:59 PM, Glenn Christodora at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Marvin,
> Where did you get your 2003 Rav4 EV? I was told by Toyota they were not
> here yet??
> Thanks
>
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marvin Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 3:41 PM
> Subject: EV Convoy with Dad
>
>
>> Folks were in town for Christmas.
>>
>> SWMBO's RAV4 EV arrived in time, but Edison hadn't set our new TOU meter
>> yet, so my charging facilities are dead in the water.
>>
>> After a couple of days we took it up to Helms Bakery (Culver City) for a
>> little juicin'.
>>
>> Took the EVcort to go get it and on the way back we're an EV convoy,
>> truckin' down Culver Boulevard; I'm piloting the EVcort and Dad's at the
>> helm of the RAV4.
>>
>> It was way cool. Dad liked it too.
>>
>> Back at the house I said, "Hey, we're driving the future".
>> He said, "Yeah, back to about aught-five ('05) or so".
>>
>> Everybody's a comedian when they make it out to LA...
>>
>> Got to park for free at LAX too! Sure would be nice if they'd put in 14-50
>> receptacles there.
>>
>> Hope everyone's holidays are turning out as nicely...
>>
>> J. Marvin Campbell
>> Culver City, CA
>> 1992 EVcort
>> 2003 RAV4 EV
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
harsha godavari wrote:
> I would like to know if any one has considered/done a conversion for
> the least amount spent for various componants (given an ICE machine
> was/is available at no cost and no pricing for personal labour).
> A mid sized ICE as a starting point and the final product with a
> 30- 40 mile range (per charge) in winter in the praiaries?
>
> If there is an account of such an experiment, i would appreciate
> hearing about it. Yes I am an ignoramus but enthusiastic about EVs
> and a little too old.
To make a successful conversion, you need money, time, and experience.
Having all three makes it easy. You can still do it with only two out of
the three, but it will be harder. If you have only one of these, it will
be very difficult indeed to succeed.
In your case, you want to do it with very little money. That means you
will have to spend a lot more time. If you also lack experience, you
will have to spend even more time educating yourself, and you will have
to do some things over and over until you get it to work right.
Possible, but far from easy!
Here are some guidelines for a really low cost EV conversion:
- Start with the smallest, lightest vehicle possible.
The less the vehicle weighs, the less all the EV parts will cost.
- Try to find an EV conversion that someone else got fed up with and
is selling cheap. It will mainly become a source of parts.
- Use used parts wherever possible.
- Used forklift or surplus aircraft starter-generator motor
- Used but tested batteries from a golf cart dealer
- Use a simple contactor controller.
These are crude, but cheeap (especially when built with used or
surplus contactors).
- Build a low voltage system; 48v to 96v.
Parts will be cheaper, and it will be safer to work on.
- Use a "bad boy" homemade charger.
Basically just a bridge rectifier, ammeter, timer, GFCI, and some
resistors or inductors to limit charging current.
- Last but not least, stay tuned to the EV list.
There is a vast amount of experience here, and it costs nothing!
My first EV conversion was a 1974 Datsun pickup. I used a surplus
aircraft starter-generator, contactor controller, homemade charger, and
golf cart batteries. Total price (excluding the pickup, which I already
had) was around $1000 ($500 of which was for new batteries).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
john kangas wrote:
> I've heard a lot of people say they bought an SUV because they're
> afraid of SUV's. The safety record of even a Volvo isn't much
> consolation after seeing an SUV drive straight through the windows
> of one.
Obviously, you can find one example car wreck to demonstrate anything.
Here's a true story: I was hit on interstate I-94 at 70 mph by an
18-wheeler. I was driving a 1980 Honda Civic. I walked away from the
crash without a scratch.
Does that mean the Honda Civic is "safe"? No; it means I was incredibly
lucky.
But, when people go to the trouble of gathering large numbers of
accident statistics, they demonstrate convincingly that SUVs are *not*
safer. Cars are safer.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a friend who insists that EV's pollute more than ICE. His argument
is that due to transmission line losses and transformer losses in grid
distribution, it takes 2000 watts to get 1000 watts to the EV. Since they
have to generate twice the power, it causes twice the pollution/carbon
dioxide, etc.
Ok... here is a charging method that creates no pollution with the
exception of the energy used to create the parts.
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/CSpage.html
(batteries in box under inverter, also charges the tractor which mows the
lawn)
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
My Fair Radio charger's ammeter is dead. I couldn't figure out why I
wasn't getting any voltage readings on the output, even though the power
light was on, the transformer was humming, and the bridge diodes seemed
to be doing their thing. It turns out that the output of the bridge
goes through the ammeter (internal shunt), and the output of the ammeter
is where the voltmeter is connected. When I bypassed the ammeter,
everything works fine. Therefore, I think the shunt in the ammeter
failed open.
The ammeter is round, between 2" and 2.5", says "Phastron" #621-17767,
50mV full scale and reads from 0-20ADC. From the back, it says
something like "Sealed--do not open".
Anyone know where I might be able to find a replacement for this? I
think it's mil-spec, and I'd like to get a direct replacement, if I can
find one. I tried searching Google and a few of the electrical surplus
places both locally and online, and couldn't find such a beast. I did
find one such ammeter without the internal shunt, but I'd rather not
have to worry about getting a separate shunt and then fitting it in
there. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Dean
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It might be an oversimplified approach but if you assume for the moment that a given
barrel of crude oil creates the same amount of pollution regardless of how it's
"cracked" and "consumed", you could trace each path (gas and electric) from the
crude to how far down the road each gets you. If can demonstrate that the electric
path gets you further down the road on a barrel of crude oil than the gas path then
you can further bolster your claim by stating that the electric path can also be
sourced by other less polluting means like solar, wind, and hydro.
The 50% electric transmission claim is based on physics and economics. If the
consumer power load were reduced by a half, the current would also be reduced by
half. The power lost in the transmission lines is the resistance of the lines times
the
current SQUARED. The power lost in the transmission line would then be reduced to
25% for a decrease of 50% in the load. If you could reduce the transmission line
resistance, the transmission line loss would also decrease, at least, for a while. As
more consumers come online, more generators would not be needed since the
decrease in transmission line resistance virtually increased overall capacity.
Clyde (list pop)
On 28 Dec 2002 at 10:42, Rick Hartmann wrote:
> I have a friend who insists that EV's pollute more than ICE. His
> argument is that due to transmission line losses and transformer
> losses in grid distribution, it takes 2000 watts to get 1000 watts to
> the EV. Since they have to generate twice the power, it causes twice
> the pollution/carbon dioxide, etc.
>
> Has anyone done the math on this? My argument is that the pollution
> generated to get a unit of power (gallon of gas) to an ICE must be
> huge when one considers the energy and pollution to get the oil from
> the well, refined and to the gas pump.
>
> Can anyone provide hard data so I can put this guy in his place? Where
> can I find detailed hard data on the energy cost of getting gasoline
> to the pump and how much pollution that creates? Is there any detailed
> hard data on transmission line losses and how much is really lost
> versus what ends up charging the EV? I'm especially interested in how
> much power it takes to refine gasoline and how efficient refineries
> are in general (and how much they pollute).
>
> Thanks,
> Rick
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm with Bruce on this one, a good working EV can be bought for as low as
$1900 with $4000 getting you a really decent one. They usually need
batteries which for a 96V commuter only cost about $1000.00.
One of my friends purchased an entire VW conversion kit removed by it's
owner on EBay for $2300. All the things listed in Bob Baths post were
inculded and he already has a VW to convert.
Tony
PS: I'm reposting this, because I'm getting feedback that it came through as
html even though I have my emailer set to plain text.
------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dean,
Mine had the same problem and I planned on ordering a new meter to replace it. I
decided that I couldn't make it any worse by opening up the meter. Inside the meter
there are two solder lugs, one on each of the terminals. One of the wires was broken
right at the lug. A simple solder job and I'm back in buisness. You might give it a
try.
Steve
In a message dated 12/29/2002 3:41:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
>
>
> Folks,
>
> My Fair Radio charger's ammeter is dead. I couldn't figure out why I
> wasn't getting any voltage readings on the output, even though the power
> light was on, the transformer was humming, and the bridge diodes seemed
> to be doing their thing. It turns out that the output of the bridge
> goes through the ammeter (internal shunt), and the output of the ammeter
> is where the voltmeter is connected. When I bypassed the ammeter,
> everything works fine. Therefore, I think the shunt in the ammeter
> failed open.
>
> The ammeter is round, between 2" and 2.5", says "Phastron" #621-17767,
> 50mV full scale and reads from 0-20ADC. From the back, it says
> something like "Sealed--do not open".
>
> Anyone know where I might be able to find a replacement for this? I
> think it's mil-spec, and I'd like to get a direct replacement, if I can
> find one. I tried searching Google and a few of the electrical surplus
> places both locally and online, and couldn't find such a beast. I did
> find one such ammeter without the internal shunt, but I'd rather not
> have to worry about getting a separate shunt and then
> fitting it in
> there. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
> Dean
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Tony, I will be on the lookout for a used one. BTW I live in
midwestern Canada. Often the EVs for sale are a couple of thousand miles
from here. The winters are harsh and the Canadian dollar is only worth
50cents US :-) All those factors have to be considered by us Canucks.
Regards
Harsha Godavari
Tony McCormick wrote:
>
> I'm with Bruce on this one, a good working EV can be bought for as low as
> $1900 with $4000 getting you a really decent one. They usually need
> batteries which for a 96V commuter only cost about $1000.00.
>
> One of my friends purchased an entire VW conversion kit removed by it's
> owner on EBay for $2300. All the things listed in Bob Baths post were
> inculded and he already has a VW to convert.
>
> Tony
>
> PS: I'm reposting this, because I'm getting feedback that it came through as
> html even though I have my emailer set to plain text.
>
> ------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I finally got around to posting some pictures I took of the 80' VW
Rabbit that Bob Rice helped me pickup in Delaware a few week ago. Nice
closeup of melted batteries and bare 2/0 wires :-( And they were brand new
batteries before they melted...
http://www.geocities.com/evblazer/VWFireGallery.html
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