EV Digest 4444
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Induction motor questions;
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) FW: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac circuits. No O-scope
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Motor stuff and human interest story (long)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Any Publicity is GOOD Publicity
by "Jeff & Diane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Induction motor questions;
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Fw: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!! Pics here!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Oat, Victor, & Track-side Safety
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!! Pics here!
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: FW: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac circuits. No O-scope
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: emergency cutoff breaker wiring question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: FW: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac circuits. No O-scope
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Induction motor questions;
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: emergency cutoff breaker wiring question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BadFishRacing)
14) Re: FW: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac circuits. No O-scope
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Monitoring Batteries
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: FW: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac circuits. No O-scope
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: FW: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac circuits. No O-scope
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: FW: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac circuits. No O-scope
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Monitoring Batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Tilley is at it again.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Tilley is at it again.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
All of the Baldor motors I worked with while I was an
employee there could be wired as 230V or 460V 3 phase.
You just take off the plate on the box mounted on the
motor and wire them up as shown on the diagram pasted
on the plate. I guess this guys motor is hard wired
for 415V operation only?
Rod
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 11:15 AM 17/06/05 -0700, Lee Hart wrote:
> >Cory R. Cross wrote: <snip>
> > > 3) Anyone used standard industrial 230/460V 3PH
> motors before?
> >
> >Yes, it's been done successfully. It's what you do
> if you don't have a
> >big budget, and aren't trying to get the ultimate
> in efficiency and
> >performance. You'll either modify the motor
> yourself to have as many of
> >the above features as possible; or accept the motor
> as it is, and design
> >around its limitations.
>
> A local EVer has done a Mini using one - it goes OK,
> but he used a standard
> 415V 25hp 50Hz motor, and a 600V inverter with 492V
> of batteries (600V ish
> peak). Since the voltage available relative to the
> motor voltage has little
> 'headroom' he runs out of 'go' at around 65hz. At
> lower RPMs he lacks
> horsepower, so he has to use the gears, then due to
> the ratios he runs out
> of ability to accelerate at 85km/h.
>
> He should have used a lower base voltage motor, or a
> higher voltage battery
> pack, which would have given him the greater
> headroom to get more motor
> RPM. Motor speed feedback would help, too. But it
> does regen *great* - up
> to 50A at 600V (30kW!).
>
> Unfortunately he believed the salesman who told him
> the batteries were self
> regulating - 5000km and down to less than half
> range.
>
> James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is nothing new under the sun!
http://www.quick220.com/pictures.htm
However, my idea also can parallel the 2 110VAC circuit for 30 AMP 110VAC
welding.
BoyntonStu
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: June 11, 2005 12:05 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac welders in
series/parallel
Any 220V plug has 2 phases that are 180 degrees out of sync. Having two 110
outlets from different breakers won't ensure that the phasing is correct.
It has to be from two breakers on opposite sides of the box.
To truly check the box output phasing, you'd need an O-scope of some sort.
Having said that, I don't recommend attempting this, primarily because of
safety concerns, and the "black box" nature of the units. I'd be more
comfortable simply using 2+ beefy transformers from old microwaves, as some
people on "da intarweb" have done.
Here's how to get either 110VAC 30AMPS or a 220VAC circuit from 2 110VAC
extension cords. (no O-scope required)
Take two beefy 12Ga extension cords and plug them into 2 receptacles in
different rooms.
The other ends go into a large electrical box.
In the box there are two beefy 110Volt 20aMP receptacles and a 220Volt
receptacle.
In a 3 hole receptacle there is a wide slot on the left, neutral
A small slot on the right, hot
A round hole beneath, ground.
Using a multimeter on the 250 VAC range, measure the voltage between the 2
hots.
If it measures 220, you connect each hot to 2 opposite terminals of the 220
receptacle and the neutral and the ground to the third terminal. You have a
220 VAC circuit. Plug your 220VAC welder in there.
If the multimeter measures 0 you have tapped the same side of the circuit
breaker box. Flip one extension cord circuit breaker off. Measure both 110
receptacles. If both are 0, you must find another 110 receptacle from a
different breaker..
If only one circuit went off when you flipped the breaker, you have it.
Just connect both receptacles in parallel and you can draw 2x Amps from your
extension box. Plug you high draw 110 welder in.
The technique might be useful in reverse when connecting a generator to your
home in an emergency if the generator is far from a 220 circuit. (I used
the clothes dryer receptacle last year after hurricane Jeanne.)
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some thought?s I have on motor design?s and uses. There has been some
discussion concerning ?forklift motors? being used in EV?s. Well this might
not be late breaking news for some but there really is no difference between
them (in fact anyone using a Warp8 or ADC 8,through, 13, etc. is using a
forklift motor) except voltage ratings. There are many forklift motors with
the same wire sizes and output as what you get with the ADC 8?s or with the
13?s for that matter. The difference lies in the thickness of the wire and the
amount of turns in the field coils, same for the armatures. The smaller the
wire, which allows more turns with the same mass of copper creates a lower RPM,
and lower Amp draw with more torque. It all comes down to mass, and turns,
(well for the most part). Larger brushes and comm.?s add to the motors ability
to draw current. The armature is the same. The more slot?s and bar?s wound
with smaller wire makes a slower less amp drawing unit. The only th!
ing I see
different in John?s 8?s and lets say another 8? drive motor out of any other
forklift motor is that his fields are set up to run parallel, (higher RPM?s,
Higher Amp?s, and Lower torque) which many forklift motors do, but many do
plumb the coils in series (slower RPM?s, Lower Amp?s Higher torque). This
might explain why some forklift motors have worked well for some, but not for
others.
Lawrence Rhodes has acquired 3 Toyota forklift motors recently. The only one I
feel would not work well is the small power steering motor. This motor has
what I call shunt wound field coils (very small round wire). These coils are
probably also plumbed in series which creates a very slow turning motor. The
only problem I see using the larger pump motor would be the output shaft. This
motor will only run 1 direction because it is hard wired internally to do that.
This connection is no different than when you jump one of the ?F? terminals to
one of the ?A? terminals to complete the motor circuit (with the other ?A? and
?F? terminals going to the batteries). It would be easy enough (for me
anyways) to make this a 4 terminal motor, or to switch the motors direction of
spin. The drive motors are still attached to a 20 to 1 gearbox. Those gear
ends should be pulled off, which will expose the real motor shaft. Lawrence
would find his motors are designed without an end p!
late and
bolt directly to the gearbox. He would need to make or retrofit a plate to
get this motor to work without the gearbox (I have to make a plate for every
motor like his just to test it at the shop). Being that these are just 24-volt
units he will not be able to get much above 48 to 60 volts before he over spins
the armatures. Being that the copper windings are thick and have fewer turns
it will have limits on the load output also, so as drives for a car they are
under sized. They would however make a bat out of hell 48-volt go-carts. It?s
just to bad he didn?t find 48 volt rated motors which would have made better
units for a larger project such as a car.
I have many postings locked inside my head but have no time to put them down as
rational thoughts quite yet. I wanted to end this post with some
human-interest stuff.
Last weekend I went to Portland and met some fellow EV?ers. Richard was one of
those who attended. As I shared Richard had been in an accident that left him
with a long road to recovery. I?m sure he often wondered WHY? He had to go
through such a hard and painful experience. As I have stated I?m busier now
than I?ve ever been. With close to 40-customer jobs in shop on top of John?s
8?s, I?m just this side of FREAK OUT MODE.
For those who don?t know me, I also write Host your own Murder mystery parties
as well as dabble in copper art, like copper roses, castles, lamp?s etc. Well
it seems of late that 24 hours per day is not enough to do the things I need to
do, let alone things I just want to do. I got a call from a friend of mine
looking to see if I could help a friend of hers in need. Her daughter was just
in an accident, which left her with a broken neck (and hopefully just
temporary) paralysis in both arms and legs. She is starting to get some
movement back but faces a hard road to recovery. After 4 month?s in the
hospital she is back home. The mother is adding another room and bath to the
house to care for her daughter. No one they know can do the electrical and she
will be unable to bathe her daughter until the addition is finished. God has
blessed me with so much that although it will push other projects further out I
found that I would have been a smuck to refuse to help (sorry G!
od I?m to
busy having fun with all you?ve done for me, to help someone else was not an
option). I went there last night to see what needed to be done. Once there I
listened to the little voice in my head and shared with the daughter the
weekend story of Richard who overcame his injuries to begin his life anew. I
had started telling the story with just her (I felt uncomfortable and awkward
at first) only to see that her mother and 5 others had walked up from behind to
listen in. When I had finished I looked around to find her mother and others
beaming at my words of encouragement. You all might feel you are doing good
work saving the world from pollution, but I can say this post is changing lives
in more ways than you all could imagine. I so hope you don?t mind me sharing
your story Richard, but it has changed the lives of at least two people I know
of. Not only was I touched with your story, but also an 18 year old girl who
is struggling to put the pieces of her life back toge!
ther, has
been shown that there is light at the end of her tunnel, but also maybe a
reason for her ordeal. Someday she to will see where she will be the courage
for another to succeed. I just had to write about the other ways you all are
affecting the world.
Thanks to everyone for making me feel so welcome here, as I?m having the time
of my life.
Sincerely
Jim Husted
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve, that was fantastic! Kudo's to you for everything. I hope they ask
you back to continue.
Jeff Wilson
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Lough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 12:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Any Publicity is GOOD Publicity
Well, That isn't exactly true, like the Electrathon crash and rescue in
Portland OR. a few weeks ago...
But this Sunday, Fathers day, 4 radio stations will air a half hour
interview that I gave on all subjects EV !! I feel it was the BEST
interview I have ever given... and over the last 25 years that has been
my specialty. Not welding, not electronic engineering, but
talking-the-talk. From soap-box to church pulpit.
For those NOT in the Seattle area, you can go to our SEVA web site,
sub-page "NEWS" and down load the MP3 file.
http://www.seattleeva.org/slough/SanduskyRadioInterviewSmall.mp3
Our web guru Ryan, has shrunk-and-compressed what was 30 megs in Stereo
down to a fast down load of only 7.5
Can't tell you how I felt walking out of the interview... Like... I
had just beat a $300,000. dollar Ferrari in a drag race in my ELECTRIC
Sports Car !! NO... Like we just sold 20 electric cars to MICROSOFT
and the Check just Cleared !!! Yaahh... something like that..
For the Local Radio Listeners Here are the call signs, times, and
frequencies:
on KLSY (Klassy !) 92.5 FM at 5 a.m.
on KIXI 880 AM, at 5:30 a.m.
on KWJZ (Cool Jazz) on 98.9 FM at 6 a.m.
and on KKNW 1150 AM, at 7 a.m.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
> All of the Baldor motors I worked with while I was an
> employee there could be wired as 230V or 460V 3 phase.
> You just take off the plate on the box mounted on the
> motor and wire them up as shown on the diagram pasted
> on the plate. I guess this guys motor is hard wired
> for 415V operation only?
James Massey wrote:
>> A local EVer has done a Mini using... a standard 415V 25hp 50Hz
>> motor, and a 600V inverter with 492V of batteries (600V ish peak).
A 492v pack can only produce a 350vac sinewave. This is already below
the motor's 415vac rating; no wonder he had problems. All motors have
even numbers of poles (2,4,6...), so it is always possible to wire the
pole pairs in series or parallel. He would have done better with this
motor if he rewired the pole pairs in parallel for 208vac.
If you're looking for a standard 50/60hz motor to use in an EV, look for
a 4-pole 240/480vac motor with a 1750rpm base speed. Rewire the 4 poles
all in parallel so it becomes 120vac per phase; this is 240vac at 120hz
to allow full-power operation at double speed. The 1750 rpm base speed
means it has a class A low-resistance high-efficiency rotor; 1725-1600
rpm base speeds mean class B-D rotors. It is also a very safe bet that a
stock 4-pole motor's rotor and bearings can run at double speed (3600
rpm) -- it is less likely that a 2-pole motor can run at 7200 rpm
without better bearings and rebalancing.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As for the claim of "Blowing John's Doors Off"--well, you can clearly see
in
the picture that there are no doors left on John's vehicle. :)
Bill Dennis....pics below
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Johnblows/RauMobile.jpg
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Johnblows/DoorsBlownOff.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Wow, reading the ongoing but interesting exchange between two of my friends has
been fun.
Both have raised good points. I seem to get injected into things, even when I
make a
conscious effort to stay out of them:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> My fault to generalize.....It's very unwise and unsafe to discharge John's
> controller's
> caps
> with second Zilla too. And you did it in front of all the spectators
> on woodburn track, remember?
Victor, you're a bit off on this. It wasn't White Zombie's controller caps we
needed to
discharge at last year's Woodburn drag races, and, we didn't use a second
Zilla, either.
For those who may not remember, we arrived at the EV races just an hour or so
after Oat
and I had been feverishly working on the car back at my place, where I had the
unfortunate
experience of blowing up the Afterburner device :-( I had reluctantly brought
the car to
the track at Oat's insistence, where it was supposed to be a 'show only' with
absolutely
no intentions of running it down the track. Many of my forklift work buddies
were there,
including a fellow you are all familiar with by now, Tim Brehm. Tim is a quiet
guy (until
he gets to know you better) but he can be very persuasive, too. Tim gave me
quite a ration
of %^$3%^*)*&%$^ about having the car simply be a trailer queen with 'no go'.
He twisted
my arm far enough to bring me out of my debilitated funk to where he had me
suddenly
rewiring, reconfiguring, rerouting, bypassing, and throwing together a rolling
science
project looking bypass. I was aghast to see many taking close-up pictures under
the
Zombie's hood of this ugly sorted affair I had created, and it was not
representative of
my normal tidy wiring....oh well.
A brand new Albright SW200 contactor was 'supposed' to be the interrupt device
for the
Afterburner bypass setup. It was originally wired in series with the 60,000 amp
SCR (the
one I blew up) and it's contact tips were paralleled with twin, 100 uf 800V
thin film
caps. that would act as high voltage snubbers to help eat the arc generated
when the
contactor would open under a 1200 amp draw. This contactor was never be used
as a 'make'
type contactor, and instead, was to be a 'carry' device and as the
aforementioned turn-off
device. With 200 uf of 800V rated capacitance ready to absorb the arc, I
figured the
contactor's tips might last and if so, the contactor-cap. arrangement would
serve as a
reliable bypass turn-off device.
Of course, this all changed once Tim Brehm figured out how it could be
reconfigured to be
the sole bypass contactor..arggh! I 'knew' that under such duress, the
contactor would
eventually weld and fry itself, maybe the first time down the track, or maybe
it would
last for a few runs. A mighty Kilovac Bubba only lasted 6 runs before it was
welded!
And so the rest is history. We used the contactor as a make type (over 2500
amps inrush),
as a carry type (about 2000 amps for the average), and as the break type where
it had to
interrupt the 1200 amps at the end of the run down the track...this is where
the pair of
100 uf 800V caps would get charged up in a hurry. The battery pack was very
tired after
having been asleep for nearly 4 months, and one of them (unknown until
recently) had a
reversed cell, explaining the poor performance of the car, and also explaining
why that
Albright contactor lasted as long as it did. When the pack finally did get
heated up and
was making some power...bye - bye contactor, which welded closed upon the high
inrush
'make' current that eventually materialized itself once the pack got to rock'n
that
resulted in a mid 13 second run.
Back to Victor's comments.....after a run down the track, and with our last
minute
track-side bypass configuration, we needed to somehow, discharge 200 uf of caps
charged up
to near 300V. Had we not done this, the next time the contactor was called on
to close, in
addition to the very high inrush current of the bypass affair, it would also be
dead
shorting those charged-up caps....not good! What to do? Oat came up with the
idea of
grabbing my PFC30 charger...not another Zilla as Victor said, and powering its
input with
the charged-up caps. The output of the charger was connected to a pair of
Hawkers wired in
series at 24V. It worked beautifully, by the way, with a small spark at the
point of
connection the charger's power input cord, and resulting in about a 20 second
charge-up of
the little Hawkers....cool!
There's a big difference between 200 uf @ 300V, and the ripple cap. bank inside
a mighty
Zilla, which by the way, is a whopping 8000 uf @ up to 400+ volts!
I know that Victor was just trying to dice it out with Oat when he used this
track-side
situation as an example, but it needed to be clarified. We did not use a Zilla
- to - Zilla
discharge, and, we were not recommending such a practice to anyone that day. In
fact, we
both had safety glasses on, and we had everyone stand back with warnings that
we were
doing something a bit 'Plasma Boy like' under the hood :-)
In closing....Victor, we all missed seeing you for last weekend's EV dinner
get-together.
There were quite a few EVers who were excited to meet you and see your car. I
know you had
called my cell phone at 6:45...sorry I missed that call, but my AT&T - Singular
crappy
phone situation didn't even give me my messages until the following morning :-(
We had
announced that the EV dinner was to be between 5:30 and 6:00, and even waited
until about
6:20 or so for any last minute arrivals. Geesh, we missed you by 20 minutes or
so, and to
make you even more frustrated, we were less than a mile away at 111th & Halsey
at El Indio
:-(
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, in the second image, the grimace says it all.
Now that's horsepower!!
RR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 10:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Zappylist
Subject: Fw: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!! Pics here!
> As for the claim of "Blowing John's Doors Off"--well, you can clearly see
> in
> the picture that there are no doors left on John's vehicle. :)
>
> Bill Dennis....pics below
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Johnblows/RauMobile.jpg
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/Johnblows/DoorsBlownOff.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Jun 2005 at 10:33, Stu or Jan wrote:
> There is nothing new under the sun!
>
> http://www.quick220.com/pictures.htm
Since many conversions need 240v for a reasonably rapid charge, we've
discussed these gadgets (and various homebrew versions of them) on the list
a few times before.
I honestly can't see the attraction of them. That might be partly because I
have experience in household electrical wiring. I've never lived anywhere -
rented or owned, house or apartment - that I wasn't able to install some
kind of 240 volt charging lashup, >>>properly and safely connnected<<<.
The only setup I've used which wouldn't have passed code inspection was the
rental house where I "borrrowed" the water heater circuit in such a way that
my charging receptacle was hot only when the water was. <g>
I would think that most other people who have the experience and knowledge
to build or maintain a conversion EV would also be able to install a safe,
effective charging facility, either temporary or permanent, almost anywhere.
Even if you don't have the experience, all you'd need is some research into
basic wiring principles (get a copy of "Wiring Simplified") and a look at
the local code requirements in your area.
Most of the homebrew methods of combining two 120 volt circuits to derive
240 volts are rather hazardous. Those you can buy, such as this one, are
suspect in that department - and ridiculously overpriced for what you're
getting, to boot.
If you need 240 volts, for goodness sake, install a proper receptacle, or
hire someone to do it if need be. You'll sleep better.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tony McCormick wrote:
>
> I've had to move my emergency breaker switch and I was wondering
> if anyone thought there was preference (or difference) in the
> two wiring options below. My car has be wired with Option 1
> for years, but since I have to make a couple of new cables
> and the motor/controller diagrams I was looking at recently
> used the second option, I figured it was worth asking for
> the opinion of the collected experts on this list :-)
>
> Key
> BS = breaker switch
> FS = Fuse
> P1 = back battery pack 60v
> p2 = front pack 42v
> CON = contactor
>
> Option 1
>
> Neg(-) P1 pos(+)--FS--BS---neg(-) P2 pos(+)----CON-->...
> |
> .--------------------------------------------FS---->...
>
> Option 2
>
> Neg(-) P1 pos(+)--FS--neg(-) P2 pos(+)---BS---CON-->...
> |
> .--------------------------------------------FS--->...
Electrically, they are equivalent; so either will work. The voltage and
current ratings of the fuses and breakers are the same no matter where
they are in the series string.
Practically, there may be differences due to the physical layout. For
example, if the + and - wires from a battery run right next to each
other or cross, there should be a fuse or breaker before that point, so
it will blow if the wires ever short.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
if you need 240v you could always just move to a country that has sensible
voltage at home
reb
smug in the UK with 240v (until i electrocute myself in the garage one day)
David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 18 Jun 2005 at 10:33, Stu or Jan wrote:
> There is nothing new under the sun!
>
> http://www.quick220.com/pictures.htm
Since many conversions need 240v for a reasonably rapid charge, we've
discussed these gadgets (and various homebrew versions of them) on the list
a few times before.
I honestly can't see the attraction of them. That might be partly because I
have experience in household electrical wiring. I've never lived anywhere -
rented or owned, house or apartment - that I wasn't able to install some
kind of 240 volt charging lashup, >>>properly and safely connnected<<<.
The only setup I've used which wouldn't have passed code inspection was the
rental house where I "borrrowed" the water heater circuit in such a way that
my charging receptacle was hot only when the water was.
I would think that most other people who have the experience and knowledge
to build or maintain a conversion EV would also be able to install a safe,
effective charging facility, either temporary or permanent, almost anywhere.
Even if you don't have the experience, all you'd need is some research into
basic wiring principles (get a copy of "Wiring Simplified") and a look at
the local code requirements in your area.
Most of the homebrew methods of combining two 120 volt circuits to derive
240 volts are rather hazardous. Those you can buy, such as this one, are
suspect in that department - and ridiculously overpriced for what you're
getting, to boot.
If you need 240 volts, for goodness sake, install a proper receptacle, or
hire someone to do it if need be. You'll sleep better.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Hi Rod (and all)
At 07:53 AM 18/06/05 -0700, Rod Hower om wrote:
All of the Baldor motors I worked with while I was an
employee there could be wired as 230V or 460V 3 phase.
You just take off the plate on the box mounted on the
motor and wire them up as shown on the diagram pasted
on the plate. I guess this guys motor is hard wired
for 415V operation only?
Rod
-<snip>
> but he used a standard
> 415V 25hp 50Hz motor, and a 600V <snip>
A motor for Australian 415V operation, delta connect 415V. Star/delta
connection starting is common here, star connection would allow for 800ish
volts with these motors!
James
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I like option #2, because you can break the pack voltage down. Plus the
disconnect is in a different area. For instance, you could short out the pack
in the controls area (where breaker/contactor/fuse are) by touching a wrench
across the wrong terminals in option #1. In option #2, the pack would be
disconnected in the middle, probably a good distance away from the 'controls
area'. I guess I've seen a couple of installations where the pack is broken
down to safer voltages before service. Option #2 is my vote.
Darin
-------------- Original message from Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
--------------
> Tony McCormick wrote:
> >
> > I've had to move my emergency breaker switch and I was wondering
> > if anyone thought there was preference (or difference) in the
> > two wiring options below. My car has be wired with Option 1
> > for years, but since I have to make a couple of new cables
> > and the motor/controller diagrams I was looking at recently
> > used the second option, I figured it was worth asking for
> > the opinion of the collected experts on this list :-)
> >
> > Key
> > BS = breaker switch
> > FS = Fuse
> > P1 = back battery pack 60v
> > p2 = front pack 42v
> > CON = contactor
> >
> > Option 1
> >
> > Neg(-) P1 pos(+)--FS--BS---neg(-) P2 pos(+)----CON-->...
> > |
> > .--------------------------------------------FS---->...
> >
> > Option 2
> >
> > Neg(-) P1 pos(+)--FS--neg(-) P2 pos(+)---BS---CON-->...
> > |
> > .--------------------------------------------FS--->...
>
> Electrically, they are equivalent; so either will work. The voltage and
> current ratings of the fuses and breakers are the same no matter where
> they are in the series string.
>
> Practically, there may be differences due to the physical layout. For
> example, if the + and - wires from a battery run right next to each
> other or cross, there should be a fuse or breaker before that point, so
> it will blow if the wires ever short.
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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Hi,
Stu or Jan wrote:
however, my idea also can parallel the 2 110VAC
> circuit for 30 AMP 110VAC welding.
Are you talking about having a box with two standard 15-amp, 120-volt
inputs that are paralleled internally to a 30-amp, 120-volt outlet?
If so, I don't see what would prevent you from accidentally connecting
the inputs to two 120-volt outlets that are on _different_ phases which
would cause a direct short at 240-volts! :-0
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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So, lee, have any suggestions for which Opto I could use to monitor these
NiCd cells?
It sounds like I need to arrange for an Open Collector output that conducts
when the LED is off.
I have no idea where to find an opto that is setup like this.
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Using a multimeter on the 250 VAC range, measure the voltage between the 2
hots.
If it measures 220, you connect each hot to 2 opposite terminals of the 220
receptacle and the neutral and the ground to the third terminal. You have a
220 VAC circuit. Plug your 220VAC welder in there.
If the multimeter measures 0 you have tapped the same side of the circuit
breaker box. Flip one extension cord circuit breaker off. Measure both 110
receptacles. If both are 0, you must find another 110 receptacle from a
different breaker..
If only one circuit went off when you flipped the breaker, you have it.
Just connect both receptacles in parallel and you can draw 2x Amps from your
extension box. Plug you high draw 110 welder in.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Viera
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 6:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: FW: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac circuits. No
O-scope
Hi,
Stu or Jan wrote:
> however, my idea also can parallel the 2 110VAC
> circuit for 30 AMP 110VAC welding.
Are you talking about having a box with two standard 15-amp, 120-volt
inputs that are paralleled internally to a 30-amp, 120-volt outlet?
If so, I don't see what would prevent you from accidentally connecting
the inputs to two 120-volt outlets that are on _different_ phases which
would cause a direct short at 240-volts! :-0
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Jun 2005 at 20:16, Stu or Jan wrote:
> Just connect both receptacles in parallel and you can draw 2x Amps from your
> extension box.
This is an extremely hazardous practice. If one of the plugs should be
accidentally disconnected, the full 120 volts will be present across the
pins of that plug. If a person touches it, he could be badly burned or
electrocuted. If it touches a conductive object, it could start a fire.
A similar hazard exists when you are trying to derive 240 volts from two 120
volt receptacles. In that case, the 120 volt line voltage is present on one
pin of the disconnected plug. If a person touches that plug and is
grounded, he could be electrocuted.
Children are apt to be curious, so it's not hard to imagine one picking up a
plug lying on the floor. They also aren't as able to withstand electrical
shock as adults. This is an accident waiting to happen.
I sure hope you don't have any kids in your household, Stu.
The practice is not only hazardous, it's unnecessary. If you need a 30 amp
120 volt circuit for your welder or whatever, for goodness sake install one
with a proper 30 amp receptacle. Trust me, it's not that difficult!
Folks - THIS IS A REALLY BAD IDEA. PLEASE DON'T DO IT.
The last thing we need is a headline in the newspaper: "Five year old
electrocuted by electric car charger."
I know some people will think of me as alarmist. Think again. This kind of
stuff is way outside the bounds of reasonable caution. It's bad enough that
quite a few EVs out there are charging without isolation from the line, and
in some cases without GFIs to boot. If this kind of carelessness becomes
too widespread, there's going to be a high profile tragedy, and we may wake
up to find that hobbyist EVs have been outlawed.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I have done this a number of times, and it is not a good practise - for many
of the reasons as Dave and others have pointed out.
However, there are some alternatives:
1) look into marine supply shops. They have "safe" connectors for getting
220V out of two 110V plugs. Their circuits automatically check for correct
phase make sure unplugged ends are not energized, etc.
2) Create an extension cord for your range outlet. I used this for years.
I had a range plug connected to a 3wire cabtire 8ga cable routed to a welder
plug. Good for if you are renting a house.
3) Create an extension cord for your dryer outlet. I use a variation of
this for my EV charger. I have a dryer plug with 3-wire 10a cabtire. In
the case of your welder, wire the extension cord to the welder 220V plug.
Good for if you are renting a house.
4) Best of all: Buy a circuit breaker, a box, a welder plug and some 2/8
NMD cable. Basically install a circuit for your welder. This is **the
best** option, bar none. All you need is to make sure you have room in
your circuit breaker box. I have done this on houses I have rented and, of
course, houses I have owned. It turns out that this is usually **the
cheapest** alternative too! Go figure, cheap and the right way to do it!
If you really want to be frugal, you can typically find good used breakers
at the local house demolition place.
Good luck
P.S. FWIW forget about making a welder (unless you **really** want to), you
can buy a decent Lincoln 220V buzzbox used for $120, new they are $200.
They are crap for light sheet steel, but great for "farm" welding of angle
iron etc. Spend your time building your EV, not a welder.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: June 18, 2005 6:25 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: FW: You need a welder - connecting 2 110vac circuits. No
O-scope
On 18 Jun 2005 at 20:16, Stu or Jan wrote:
> Just connect both receptacles in parallel and you can draw 2x Amps
> from your extension box.
This is an extremely hazardous practice. If one of the plugs should be
accidentally disconnected, the full 120 volts will be present across the
pins of that plug. If a person touches it, he could be badly burned or
electrocuted. If it touches a conductive object, it could start a fire.
A similar hazard exists when you are trying to derive 240 volts from two 120
volt receptacles. In that case, the 120 volt line voltage is present on one
pin of the disconnected plug. If a person touches that plug and is
grounded, he could be electrocuted.
Children are apt to be curious, so it's not hard to imagine one picking up a
plug lying on the floor. They also aren't as able to withstand electrical
shock as adults. This is an accident waiting to happen.
I sure hope you don't have any kids in your household, Stu.
The practice is not only hazardous, it's unnecessary. If you need a 30 amp
120 volt circuit for your welder or whatever, for goodness sake install one
with a proper 30 amp receptacle. Trust me, it's not that difficult!
Folks - THIS IS A REALLY BAD IDEA. PLEASE DON'T DO IT.
The last thing we need is a headline in the newspaper: "Five year old
electrocuted by electric car charger."
I know some people will think of me as alarmist. Think again. This kind of
stuff is way outside the bounds of reasonable caution. It's bad enough that
quite a few EVs out there are charging without isolation from the line, and
in some cases without GFIs to boot. If this kind of carelessness becomes
too widespread, there's going to be a high profile tragedy, and we may wake
up to find that hobbyist EVs have been outlawed.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
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John Lussmyer wrote:
> So Lee; have any suggestions for which Opto I could use to monitor
> these NiCd cells? It sounds like I need to arrange for an Open
> Collector output that conducts when the LED is off. I have no
> idea where to find an opto that is setup like this.
Use an inexpensive high-gain transistor output optocoupler, like a 4N35
or CNY17-4 (CTR 100% minimum). The LED just begins to work at 1.0v; the
minimum voltage for a nicad cell. Connect the LED to each cell thru a
series resistor. Pick the resistor to limit the max LED current when the
cell is fully charged.
Wire all the phototransistors in series. When "on", they will each have
about a 0.2v drop; thus 10 in series drops 2v, 50 in series drops 10v
etc. Setup a circuit to detect current flowing in this long string of
phototransistors. As long as the current is flowing, no cell has fallen
below 1.0v.
Contact me off-list if you'd like to pursue this.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
> Is there a web site for this vehicle?
>
>
Just make one up yourself. It will probably be more convincing than
anything that Tilley can come up with. While, apparently, he is a good
enough scam artist to convince /some/ gullible folks to give up their
money, his fake vehicles are laughable at best.
His Delorean was a joke, my truck could have run circles around it and I
wouldn't have ended up with severely over-discharged batteries at the end
of a mere 17 miles.
On the amusing side, while quickly scanning the features that his make
believe vehicle won't have, I thought I saw "electronic cloak" (it was
actually clock). Oh well, I'm sure his next model will introduce cloaking
and hyper drive capabilities.
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> It must be magic! Perpetual motion?
>
No,no,no. This isn't anything as paltry as perpetual motion...perpetual
motion just defies the laws of physics and keeps moving when it should run
down.
This "invention" (read "scam") involves what is commonly know as "Over
Unitity", which does everything perpetual motion does, PLUS produces
excess power that you can use to power other devices; AC, electric clock,
stereo, power antennas, optional Stairmaster exercise equipment, etc.
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