EV Digest 4521
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Honda Insight question
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Portland, OR visit
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Intro and questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Honda Insight question
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Real eff hybrids, Re: CalCars plug in hybrids
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) List Probs
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: 9Electric Degreasing Advice Sought
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: A timer on PFC chargers
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Intro and questions
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Desulfators (desulphators?)
by Walter Castell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: 9Electric Degreasing Advice Sought
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Sepex Motor controller
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Motor cooling
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Honda Insight question
by D B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) 2006 Mercury Mariner Hybrid FYI
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor cooling
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Sepex Motor controller
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor cooling
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Motor cooling
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) accelleration troubles
by "john" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Motor cooling
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Looking for data logger for monitoring my Optima YT
by "KENT BAKKE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Motor cooling
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: I'm back
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Real eff hybrids, - now Prius commentary
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: accelleration troubles, ideas
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This is a little bit of a wild idea, and I am waiting until honda
insights in the wrecking yard become more commonplace before I get out
my checkbook but it is a range extender trailer that I am most curious
about.
I call this car idea the "foursight"
Since the IMA motors bolt onto the back of the motor and provide the
same interface on the other end, I want to pull the ice and replace it
with 4 ima motors and controllers connected all togather. I wonder if
thery will stack like this or if there is overhangs that get in the way.
If they get there rpm signal off of the ICE, then I can just create
the signal off the common shaft and feed it to all 4 controllers.
What else would they do to control the BLDC motor?
Litium Ion batteries and ultracaps or hawkers. for a ~50 mile range.
98% of the time the range extender would stay home.
Then I could take the radiator,ICE, plastic fuel tank and a genhead and
make a trailer (all aluminum of course). In that way I would have a
SULEV generator.
the questions:
Is this to big and heavy for a generator and trailer? Overkill?
How hard to convert to propane, are there propane (or CNG ) civic
parts that would work?
I can store propane for a long time whereas gasoline and gasoline
components need a renewed fresh supply or lots of special tratments. If
I really use this once or twice a year i am afraid the gas would
evaporate, go bad, or gum up the works and defete the SULEV rating.
Does anyone know how heavy the honda insight 1 liter 3cyl engine is ?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John has talked to me off-list and is working on something so hopefully
you Portland types will be hearing, and then let me know a time & place
(Saturday 7/30 after 6pm or Sunday 7/31 after 3pm being best for us).
And... an old friend has emerged "just down the road" from Rich Rudman,
so I may end up in that area too! (If Rich hasn't blacked out the entire
neighborhood...)
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
John (Wayland),
Would you like to do it again?
Jim Coate wrote:
I'll be visiting the Portland, Oregon area at the end of July with my
fiancé and would love to meet up with some EVers in the area if anyone
is around for eating and/or show & tell.
We are available Saturday or Sunday July 30th or 31st, sometime in the
afternoon or evening. As east coasters, it would be great to see the
stuff west coast legends are made of. Thanks.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Noel meant AC [system], not A/C.
Victor
jerry dycus wrote:
Hi Noel and All,
Noel P. Luneau wrote:
Hi all,
I'm new to the group and wanted to introduce
myself and ask a question
or two.
Anyway, I just picked up some Ovonic 13.2v 85AH
NiMH batteries for use
in a "real" Electric Vehicle project. I also have
the capability to
pick up a used Solectria AC55-A and a Solectria
UMOC440TF.
Would any of you suggest what sort of vehicle
would make a good glider
with these components (sorry, open ended
question). Is the AC-55 too
big for a car project (convertible Mustang maybe)?
As the power is about 78hp which in AC is only ok,
I'd pick something really light like a Karman Ghia or
a Kitcar like a 64 Ferrari Daytona Coupe knockoff
that could be light and aero.
Another good one could be a GT40 type like the
Fiberfab Valkrie which is especially easy to do in EV.
All these give you good aero at well under 1,000lb
glider which should be fairly fast with that power
with an all up weight of 1500-1600lbs.
Both the kitcars done well would be fairly
valuable after finishing with their high speeds, long
range depending on the number of batteries you have.
If done correctly you could have 100wt-hrs/mile
power use so get 7-9 miles/batt you use in these style
car gliders!
Also what would be a
good charger and BMS that have a NiMH profile. I
understand that for
California summers it is important to keep the
NiMH's cool with a good
BTMS. Any suggestions there?
If you got those from a car, did it have an AC in
it? Or you could run a window AC guts repackaged and
do an inverter of the pack or DC/DC or several batts
on 12vdc to an normal inverter.
Or use an aftermarket AC and run it with a high
voltage motor off the pack. Run all these thru the car
and have the air exit thru the batt box.
Another is a fan and a water mist for a swamp
cooler for the batts or the car itself.
But just painting the car a light color and a fan
with cooling spaces between batts should work well.
though care not to charge in the heat of the day but
with it's range, that shouldn't be a problem.
I just wish I had those to put in my 600lb
glider!!! With 24 of those batts it's range would be
about 240 miles and really fast with that power!!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Your help is greatly appreciated....
Noel
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Does anyone know how heavy the honda insight 1 liter 3cyl engine is ?
This claims 124 lbs:
http://www.obd-onboarddiagnostics.com/future.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
--- David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A car's gas mileage is determined far more by its
> weight and aero
> than motor size. If you look at the same car with
That is a big part of it but it's also x's the
engine eff which a 120 hp engine like the Prius'
running at 15hp to do 75mph is not heavily loaded by
any stretch of the imagination.
And at these speeds it is always on, losing much
power through friction, oil/water/power steering
pumps, fans, bearings, cams, pistons, ect. All of
these take up the same or more power as the wheels
need to move the car down the road. That's why ICE's
will never be as eff as an EV motor which has only
roller bearings and maybe bushes for internal
friction.
Now take a 1/4 size 30hp engine which to do 75mph
would run 15hp road load and 15hp charging for 10
minutes then turn off and the 50hp stock E motor
doubled in size to 100hp runs for 10 minutes, then the
ICE kicks back in to power the car and recharge the
batts.
In this mode the ICE has 1/4 the internal losses
when running and only runs 1/2 the time, saving much
power compared to the low loaded Prius motor.
> different engine
> sizes there is surprisingly little difference in gas
> mileage. It is
> primarily governed by Carnot cycle efficiency -- if
> you could triple
> the operating temperature then you'd see significant
They tried that but it just raised the amount of
heat escaping out the exhaust without increasing eff
much but was hell on the exhaust valves.
One way would be using a smaller engine then using
a steam engine to cool it and the exhaust for
superheat increasing eff to about 50-55% from 30% if
heavily loaded. I'm amazed they don't do this on
semi's, ships, loco's. With steam accumulators, it
could double fuel mileage!!
> gains. I would
> not be surprised if you cut the Prius displacement
> in half and gas
> mileage improved less than 10%. Where I do agree is
But it's cut into 1/4 and runs only 1/2 the time or
so at 75mph, less at lower speeds, downhill, and more
above, uphill.
This falls right in my rule of thumb that you need
a 5-8hp motor for every 1,000lbs of aero EV.
> if you beefed up
> the electric side the gas mileage would improve
> more.
Yes that's very true as EV drives are about
2.5-3 x the eff of ICE drives as they only use the
power needed without the part load losses.
>
> The Prius' basic trick is the gas motor runs heavily
Like I showed, 15hp on a 120hp motor is NOT heavily
loaded!!!
> loaded, only 1/2
> the time,
Only in city mode where I said the difference
would be less does the Prius ICE run 1/2 the time.
Even there with the 40 mile batt pack it actually
will rarely run!!
> plus regen.
A given on all of these.
YMMV,
Jerry Dycus
>
> --- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <major snippage>
> > > >From: jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > > > One wonders though if Toyota would
> cut
> > > it's
> > > >4cyl engine down to 1 cyl and use that weight,
> cost
> > > >savings to double the E motor power and the
> battery
> > > >pack size to 40 mile range, just how much more
> the
> > > gas
> > > >mileage on the fewer times gas was actually
> needed,
> > > >would be?
> > > If the Prius ICE were much smaller, it could not
> > > sustain continuous highway
> > ...
> > > Lastly , can you give us your thinking behind
> the
> > > 1.75X highway efficiency
> > > improvement that would result from a smaller ICE
> in
> > > the Prius ? The
> >
> > Friction is ralated to the number, speed of the
> > parts so less, smaller parts, less wasted fuel, a
> > known fact. Plus the engine would run under 1/2
> the
> > time unless going faster than 80mph.
> > ...
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I was dropped from the EV list on Tuesday. :-(
Was there a problem?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Or try this stuff:
>
> http://www.simplegreen.com/
If you can't get the tranny to a steam cleaner, definitely give the
Simple Green a try. Not only is it remarkably effective, but it is also
environmentally friendly.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor and all:
Will the charger and its timer reset and initiate another full
cycle? I guess it will, just as when you cycle the power switch.
It has no way of knowing if that reset was user's request or the
power failure.
I guess not too good for a topped off batteries...
This could be very different for various types of batteries, but for the
Exide Orbitals I'm using, this doesn't seem to be a problem with a
PFC-20. Yes, the timer does reset if you turn the power off and then
back on (i.e. briefly). But if you watch the current level on the
e-meter, the current tapers off to very little - less than an amp - as
the batteries get "full". So as I see it (Rich or others, correct me if
I'm wrong), you could really leave the charger on all night and it would
just leave the batteries in basically a float charge. The PFC's keep
the current at whatever level necessary to maintain the set voltage
(14.4V per battery in my case), not to exceed the current level set on
the "current" knob.
Rudman Regs give a lot of peace of mind too. I don't worry about things
too much with the Regs+PFC charger configuration.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor and All,
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think Noel meant AC [system], not A/C.
He meant AC drive in the top part to use in a
glider of which suggestions he was asking for and he
asked about cooling his batts which is where the other
AC came in at the bottom.
NiMH batts have a bad habit of overheating with
thermal runaway destroying themselves which require
active cooling in Cal summers, especially when
charging to survive.
HTH's
Jerry Dycus
>
> Victor
>
> jerry dycus wrote:
> >
> > Hi Noel and All,
> >
> >
> >>Noel P. Luneau wrote:
> >>
> >>>Hi all,
> >>>
> >>>I'm new to the group and wanted to introduce
> >>
> >>myself and ask a question
> >>
> >>>or two.
> >>>
> >>>Anyway, I just picked up some Ovonic 13.2v 85AH
> >>
> >>NiMH batteries for use
> >>
> >>>in a "real" Electric Vehicle project. I also
> have
> >>
> >>the capability to
> >>
> >>>pick up a used Solectria AC55-A and a Solectria
> >>
> >>UMOC440TF.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>Would any of you suggest what sort of vehicle
> >>
> >>would make a good glider
> >>
> >>>with these components (sorry, open ended
> >>
> >>question). Is the AC-55 too
> >>
> >>>big for a car project (convertible Mustang
> maybe)?
> >
> >
> > As the power is about 78hp which in AC is only
> ok,
> > I'd pick something really light like a Karman Ghia
> or
> > a Kitcar like a 64 Ferrari Daytona Coupe
> knockoff
> > that could be light and aero.
> > Another good one could be a GT40 type like the
> > Fiberfab Valkrie which is especially easy to do in
> EV.
> > All these give you good aero at well under 1,000lb
> > glider which should be fairly fast with that power
> > with an all up weight of 1500-1600lbs.
> > Both the kitcars done well would be fairly
> > valuable after finishing with their high speeds,
> long
> > range depending on the number of batteries you
> have.
> > If done correctly you could have
> 100wt-hrs/mile
> > power use so get 7-9 miles/batt you use in these
> style
> > car gliders!
> >
> >
> >> Also what would be a
> >>
> >>>good charger and BMS that have a NiMH profile. I
> >>
> >>understand that for
> >>
> >>>California summers it is important to keep the
> >>
> >>NiMH's cool with a good
> >>
> >>>BTMS. Any suggestions there?
> >
> >
> > If you got those from a car, did it have an AC
> in
> > it? Or you could run a window AC guts repackaged
> and
> > do an inverter of the pack or DC/DC or several
> batts
> > on 12vdc to an normal inverter.
> > Or use an aftermarket AC and run it with a high
> > voltage motor off the pack. Run all these thru the
> car
> > and have the air exit thru the batt box.
> > Another is a fan and a water mist for a swamp
> > cooler for the batts or the car itself.
> > But just painting the car a light color and a
> fan
> > with cooling spaces between batts should work
> well.
> > though care not to charge in the heat of the day
> but
> > with it's range, that shouldn't be a problem.
> > I just wish I had those to put in my 600lb
> > glider!!! With 24 of those batts it's range would
> be
> > about 240 miles and really fast with that power!!!
> > HTH's,
> > Jerry Dycus
> >
> >>>
> >>>Your help is greatly appreciated....
> >>>
> >>>Noel
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Search "Bedini SSG" and you will find a very singular
"desulfator", and something more...
Walter
--- Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
escribió:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:21:34 -0500, Danny Miller
> wrote:
>
> > So are there established opinions out there on
> whether desulfators can
> > undo sulfation in flooded plate lead acid or not?
> I saw the patents on
> > that but I also know that a patent doesn't in any
> way mean something
> > does anything useful.
> > I was thinking of building one. The schematics
> out there are kind of
> > wacky though, I might want to design my own.
>
> Look at http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm and
> in the forum
> http://p198.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
> .
>
> Emil
>
>
___________________________________________________________
1GB gratis, Antivirus y Antispam
Correo Yahoo!, el mejor correo web del mundo
http://correo.yahoo.com.ar
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is an extreme measure, but stop by your dollar
store and get some oven cleaner. Make sure you rinse
it off really good since it is very corrosive, but it
does a really nice job of cleaning up the nasty stuff.
Rod
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Or try this stuff:
> >
> > http://www.simplegreen.com/
>
> If you can't get the tranny to a steam cleaner,
> definitely give the
> Simple Green a try. Not only is it remarkably
> effective, but it is also
> environmentally friendly.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I am continuing on with my EV Audi conversion And if you remember I was
able to salvage an 11 inch GE motor from a fork truck. The problem is I
need a controller, the motor is a separately excited motor or sometimes
called a shunt motor. I would like to use this motor with my nicads (
Thanks Hump ).
Could any body point me in the right direction to a zilla like
performance controller.
I also have the original controller which came with this motor but it is
only rated for 48 volts. I think the controller was available in Europe
for 80 volt operation but I do not have that available. I would like to
either modify this controller or purchase one with a voltage rating of
at least 150 volts nominal.
Any suggestions are welcome.
Mike G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 5:55 AM
Subject: RE: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
>
> http://home.netcom.com/~slh4/conversionhints.html
>
> Hi Dennis:
> I just sold a Nissan Longbed 1982 pickup truck to a friend of mine in
> Texas. He's having a ball with it. It's all electric. That truck was
> originally converted as a fleet of trucks and cars in Vegas back in the
> 70's. I just happened to have the right sized motor ( used) if you decide
> to convert that truck. It's an 8 inch, advanced DC motor, self-cooling
for
> $900. One of your most expensive items.
I would definitely NOT use an 8" motor - this truck is too heavy for an 8",
IMO.
I have a 1978 Datsun Kingcab, and use a 9" ADC motor with a Kodiak (no
longer available?) controller and a Russco charger for 20 Trojan T-105's. I
can
get about 30 miles if I drive it frequently and on a warm day. Temperatures
below 55, it drops to about 18 miles.
I originally had 96V of Optima YT's 24/27 and got about 12 miles max. The
144
volt pack of Optima YT G31's never performed as they should have; power was
great, but the range was terrible.
> The motor that's on the other truck is an old motor, and it has to have a
> smaller motor with a fan on it to keep it cool. After you find the plate
> for that standard transmission (because you'll be driving in second gear
> most of the time), the motor fits on the plate, the plate fits on the
> transmission. They make plates for all standard transmissions. Forget
> automatics. They don't work. You install roughly 8 six-volt Trojan
> batteries in the front and 12 or more batteries under the bed in the back.
> that means you have to make battery boxes. I kind of cut to the chase
when
> I said Trojan 6 volt batters. We tried 12 volt batteries, which makes the
> vehicle lighter, but they only last half as long and go only half as far.
> The batteries I recommend should give you a 60 mile range.
Maybe they should, but they won't!!!
> The next thing I would recommend is a Curtis 120 to 144 volt 500-amp
> controller for around $1,000. Or you could spend $3,000 and have enough
> more permance, regenerative braking, recharging with Otmar's rechargers.
I
> think they are called Zilla (or something like that). You're looking at a
> lot of work (between 200 and 300 h ours), but you would have wonderful
> knowledge and beat the high price of gasoline. Good
> Luck.................Bill
>
> Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Don't let me discourage you - what you have planned is very possible; but
for that
pickup, listen to my advice, 'cause I've done it!!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Pestka, Dennis J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: EV Discussion Group <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Date: 7/22/2005 5:13:25 AM
> > Subject: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
> >
> >
> > After looking at this for over 5 years, I finally found the truck I
> > would like to convert.
> > 1965 Datsun N320 Pickup.
> > Really solid and rust free.
> >
> > Can you give me any advice on how to set it up?
> >
> > I would like this thing to have good performance with ~ 30 mile
> > range.
> > My wife is a school teacher, and I feel the best way to get young
> > people interested in electric is to give them a taste of what these
> vehicles
> > can really do.
> > Everyone thinks that these are glorified golf carts.
> >
> > My biggest decision is batteries.
> > There seems to be so many choices.
> >
> > This truck weighs in at 2085 lbs and has a GVW of close to 4000# so
> > I have a lot of options.
> > I would although like to keep it as light as possible, so I can get
> > the performance I would like
> >
> > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks;
> > Dennis
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I've never seen these EV systems. How do you handle motor cooling?
Certainly these require some heavy duty airflow, right? But the
airspace around the rotor isn't just open for exchange with the outside
air, is it?
Danny
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--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Does anyone know how heavy the honda insight 1 liter 3cyl engine is ?
This claims 124 lbs:
http://www.obd-onboarddiagnostics.com/future.htm
Aloha: That weight actually seems a little heavy, considering all of the
effort made to lighten the engine (magnesium pan, etc). I understnd that
that Suzuki 1 liter 3 cyl engine used in the two door Geo Metro weighs
less than that. I could be comparing applesa nd oranges, as I don't know
what accessories are included in each weight. David Bettencourt
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--- Begin Message ---
I thought this was interesting..
"Two permanent magnet AC synchronous motors will provide motor and
generator functions. The 400V battery pack is made up of 250 D-sized
nickel-metal hydride batteries."
http://hybridcars.about.com/od/buyingahybridcar/p/06marinerhybrid.htm
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--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> I've never seen these EV systems. How do you handle motor cooling?
> Certainly these require some heavy duty airflow, right? But the
> airspace around the rotor isn't just open for exchange with the outside
> air, is it?
Scroll down some on this page and you can see the fan on one end of the motor:
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pgallery4_3.php
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At 10:41 PM 22/07/05 -0400, Mike G wrote:
Hi all,
I am continuing on with my EV Audi <snip> need a controller, the motor is
a separately excited motor or sometimes called a shunt motor. <snip> a
zilla like performance controller.
I also have the original controller which came with this motor but it is
only rated for 48 volts. <snip> at least 150 volts nominal.
Any suggestions are welcome.
Hi Mike (and all)
Do you know what the max. field voltage is? It may be something less than
the 48V the forklift system ran from. Once you know the field voltage, and
measure the resistance, you can then get some idea what the field control
needs. Control the field with one, two or more steps of resistance or PWM
control, control the aramture with a Zilla, and away you go.
Last time this came up someone suggested 3 or 4 steps of resistors for the
field, giving an electronic 'shift' that partly emulates the torque
characteristics of an ICE. I thought further on this, and wondered if it
would be possible for the Zilla series/paralell control to be used as a
two-step field weakening control.
Otmar, I assume the Zilla would not even notice that the armature didn't
get interrupted on what would otherwise be S/P switch? And part b) if a
manual field control were used, would there be any ramifications for a
Zilla if the field were brought on hard enough to get regen?
James
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm not totally sure I understand the picture. Does it allow outside
air to flow across the rotor, or is it dissipating only the heat
conducted from the rotor through the drive shaft by essentially
heatsinking the drive shaft?
Danny
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
I've never seen these EV systems. How do you handle motor cooling?
Certainly these require some heavy duty airflow, right? But the
airspace around the rotor isn't just open for exchange with the outside
air, is it?
Scroll down some on this page and you can see the fan on one end of the motor:
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pgallery4_3.php
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Danny Miller wrote:
> I'm not totally sure I understand the picture. Does it allow outside
> air to flow across the rotor, or is it dissipating only the heat
> conducted from the rotor through the drive shaft by essentially
> heatsinking the drive shaft?
I'm under the impression the fan pulls in air, blows it across the
motor to cool it, and also blows out the brush dust on the other end
in the process.
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Hey again.
Am having trouble still with my 85 Dodge truck. The motor does not always
connect when I push on the accellerator. It might take 4 or 5 pumps before it
catches. My friend and I checked the potbox, it works fine, had the controller
checked out it is great, checked the wiring all ok. My question is could it be
the motor? We are stumped. I bought this already converted and it ran for
years with good service. It has 144 volt, Kodiak controller. ANY suggestions
would be greatly appreciated.
John Barnes in Tucson
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Hi,
Ryan Stotts wrote:
I'm under the impression the fan pulls in air, blows it across the
motor to cool it, and also blows out the brush dust on the other end
in the process.
No, it's the exact reverse... the fan sucks air in at the commutator
(brush) end of the motor, through the gaps between the coils in the
motor casing and the armature, and blows it out through the vents in the
drive end of the motor casing.
Scroll down some on this page and you can see the fan on one end of
the motor: http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pgallery4_3.php
I'm pretty sure I have some better pictures of the fan assembly in my
motor... if I can find them I'll add them to Photo Gallery 4.3 on my
site (linked to above).
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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Dennis, I knew you'd post here eventually. You emailed me
for advice. Remember how I told you that Wayland would be
onto this truck like flies on crap. :-)
***long post alert***
This truck is a real beauty. If I wanted to do a Red Beastie
knockoff only with greatly increased performance, the Datsun
minitruck is precisely what would have been my optimum
choice. I wouldn't have made it show quality by any means,
and would have gladly mutilated the hell out of it with
extensive aero mods, but I decided I'd rather do a sports
car, as you saw on my Austin EV profile.
The Datsun minitruck has a lot of potential. But everything
depends upon your own personal goals and how much you are
willing to spend in time and money.
Please take my advice with a grain of salt. I am doing my
first conversion, and I'm by no means an expert at this, but
if I state something that wouldn't work or wouldn't be
accurate, someone will probably correct me.
To answer your questions,
Dennis J. Pestka wrote:
>Can you give me any advice on how to set it up?
>I would like this thing to have good performance with
>~ 30 mile range. My wife is a school teacher, and I
>feel the best way to get young people interested in
>electric is to give them a taste of what these
>vehicles
>can really do.
>Everyone thinks that these are glorified golf carts.
Do you simply want 30 miles range, or do you want to show
them the absolute best that a lead acid powered conversion
could do using off the shelf components anyone can obtain?
How much are you willing to spend on the conversion?
If you want, getting 70 miles range on AGMs with
acceleration to rival $45,000 sports cars isn't that out of
the question. It just might cost $15k, less depending on
what parts you decide on, more if you don't do everything
yourself.
>My biggest decision is batteries.
>There seems to be so many choices.
Indeed. But without mass production for automotive
applications for other chemistries like NiMH and Li Ion or
Li Poly in EV-sized modules, price is prohibitive for
everything except lead acid and flooded NiCds. Things don't
have to be that way, but that's just the way they are today
for various reasons that often tread into the realm of
politics.
Unless you have deep pockets, you'll be using lead, or if
you're lucky and diligent, maybe military surplus NiCds if
you're willing to go through the hassel of management,
watering, constant upkeep, and a whole slew of messes
associated with them. The military surplus NiCd route and
all the watering and maintenance associated with it may not
make your truck convincing to others, but it would be a
cheap way to get range well in excess of that of most
on-road conversions along with capability for good
performance.
For your goals, it appears to me sealed lead acid batteries
would be your best bet. I like Lawrence Rhodes' advice in
this regard.
You want zero maintenance, correct? At least average
performance? Can't afford lithium? That narrows your battery
choices down to some form of sealed lead acid.
>This truck weighs in at 2085 lbs and has a GVW of
>close to 4000# so I have a lot of options.
>I would although like to keep it as light as possible,
>so I can get the performance I would like.
Lightweight can be compensated by a more powerful motor,
controller, and battery combination. The Triumph I am doing
will weigh in at 2,600 pounds if I go with that monster 300V
Optima pack and convert without doing the weight reduction
via fiberglass parts and lexan, and with a motor voltage
limit at 192, the exact rating for the WarP 9'' from
Netgain, spreadsheets have given me results for 0-60
acceleration in the 6 second range(Higher or lower depending
on shift points, traction, outside wind speed, air density,
ect. Some had it dipping to 5.5 seconds), this with a 300V
Zilla 1k model. My car is not yet near completed, but
Wayland's example is an excellent one to work from, having
achieved 0-60 in 6 seconds when it had a DCP Raptor 1200,
ADC 9'', and 156V of Optimas weighing about 2,300 pounds,
and now having a performance boost with a 204V pack of Exide
Orbitals, same motor, and 300V Zilla 1k weighing in at about
the same weight.
How fast do you want to go? What cars do you want your
acceleration performance to compare to?
A 156V Zilla 1k in a 3,200 pound truck with a 156V AGM pack
and 9'' motor appears as if it would have no problem getting
you from 0-60 mph in about 8-9 seconds. This would be
slightly above average compared to the cars on the road
today. Most cars on the road are not new, and your average
beater from the middle 1990s on the road today might take
10-11 seconds to do 0-60, while your average new car might
do it in 9 seconds.
>Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
I gave you plenty of suggestions after that email you sent
me, but if I had this truck, this is what I'd personally end
up planning on, assuming a mostly unrestricted budget but a
budget still insufficient for Li Ions($15k or so):
-WarP 9'' series DC motor x1 $1,395
-Exide Orbital XCD30 battery x32 $3,136
-Cafe Electric Zilla Controller w/ Hall effect pedal
sensor(72-300V DC, 2,000 amp max) x1 $4,455
-Manzanita Micro PFC 20 Charger w/ buck enhancement x1
$1,800
-Todd DC-DC converter x1 $400
-Steel for battery racks $100
-Battery Cable $100
-EV200AAANA contactors x1 $75
-Feraz Shawmut A50QS600-4 fuse x2 $220
-E-Meter x1 $235
-Solid-State Ceramic Heater Core x1 $75
-Steel Adaptor Plate $50
-Miscallaneous components(Heat shrink tubing, tools, ect.)
$1,000
-Rudman Battery Regulators x16 $704
Your total would come to $13,745, not including taxes or
shipping or counting that other costs for steel and such
were estimates that could be higher or lower.
Basically a $15,000 conversion.
If you have someone else build your battery racks or adaptor
plate, you could add thousands to the cost of the truck.
Those 32 Orbitals, I'd assemble them into buddy pairs. Two
strings of sixteen batteries per string with one regulator
for each set of two batteries. This would play nicely to
that 300V Zilla 2k and WarP 9'' motor with a 192V motor
voltage limit imposed(The WarP 9'' manufacturer's voltage
rating that they will warantee the motor to).
Your finished conversion would weigh about 3,500 pounds not
including weight of any passengers or driver. 1,312 pounds
of that truck's weight would be in batteries.
Having that large of a battery pack with such a high voltage
would do wonders for Peukert's effect. You'd be using 25
amps for each string to go about 50 mph, and under that low
of a draw, the Orbitals might deliver 380 wh to 80% depth of
discharge(ie. 95 minutes at 25 amps to 100% DoD), assuming
no 2,000 motor amp accelerations and steady 50 mph on flat
ground at 25 amps per battery string. That would yield 192
wh/mile consumption at 50 mph, or 63 miles range to 80%
depth of discharge at a steady 50 mph. But steady 50 mph is
hardly realistic driving conditions.
With a battery pack that large in that truck, you'd go about
50 miles per charge to 80% depth of discharge under
relatively normal driving, more if you go easy on the
acceleration.
Speaking of the acceleration, you'd have WELL in excess of
200 peak horsepower on tap from the motor, controller, and
battery combination. 0-60 would be around 5 seconds, 1/4
mile acceleration somewhere in the low 14 second region.
Faster than a Porsche Boxter, Nissan 350Z, or Audi TT, with
0-40 that could match a $100,000 exotic, and 0-60 and 1/4
mile to beat or match those aforementioned $45,000 sports
cars.
How's that for stereotype killing? You'd have a bonifide
show-quality sleeper that all the kids would drool over
non-stop, and it would be electric!
There are all sorts of efficiency gains that can be made
without altering the truck's exterior stock appearance one
bit. First and foremost is low rolling resistance tires.
There is also machining down the brakes to reduce brake
drag. You can also install a bellypan or even a full
underbelly. You can replace your wheel bearings if they are
dragging more than they should. You could use synthetic
transmission oil, increasing your overall efficiency by
about 2%. You can cover the engine compartment from the
inside to cut turbulence even more. Also, adjust the
alignment to zero degrees camber.
All of those things combined could increase that range by
about 25%, the most drastic being the LRR tires.
You can go even further out there by covering the rear wheel
wells, adding a front air dam, adding a streamlined bed
cover, shaving the door handles, among other things, but
your truck wouldn't look much like a truck any longer and
Datsun fans might go apeshit at this an evil mutilation of
such a prized truck. Plus it may not appear as aesthetically
appealing to the youth of today if improperly executed. See
this article for details on aero mods:
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=870
I know you're not trying to set range records, so that
probably won't be for you, but it's a nice thought if you
need a means to increase range without adding batteries and
don't care much about stock appearance.
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I have a 144 Volt pack , two strings of Optima YT and I would like to
monitor the voltage of each pair.
I am looking for a data logger to monitor all the batteries or individual
volt meters.
Any recommendations?
thanks,
Kent Bakke
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So how do you keep dust, rain, etc out of the motor? Is the air intake
located inside the cab or behind an air filter?
I know heat has a seriously detrimental effect on motor power and
efficiency. How cool does the motor stay? I wonder if an external
cooling system might be justifiable.
Danny
Nick Viera wrote:
No, it's the exact reverse... the fan sucks air in at the commutator
(brush) end of the motor, through the gaps between the coils in the
motor casing and the armature, and blows it out through the vents in the
drive end of the motor casing.
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Thanks much for the advice. I'll try and put together some pictures I've taken
of the progress soon.
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Ricky Suiter wrote:
> Trojan 30XHS's. 130 ah C/20, same batteries used in GEM car's. So
> in that case I guess I can set the limit to 500 amps and try my
> best to keep my foot out of it. Again, this will all be setup for
> the full 1000 amps the zilla can put out when I get some Orbitals
> in the future, but in the mean time I'd like to get the cheap pack
> to last at least a couple years.
I doubt you can even draw 1000 amps from a Trojan 30XHS without pulling
it well below 10.5v. If you try, it's like hitting it on the head with a
hammer; it might survive, but every "blow" damages it.
But luckily, the Zilla has a battery current limit. When a controller
steps the voltage down, it steps the current UP. So, you can set the
battery current limit to a reasonable number like 250 amps, and still
have a motor current of 1000 amps. That's what I would do with these
batteries.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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From: jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A car's gas mileage is determined far more by its
> weight and aero
> than motor size. If you look at the same car with
That is a big part of it but it's also x's the
engine eff which a 120 hp engine like the Prius'
running at 15hp to do 75mph is not heavily loaded by
any stretch of the imagination.
Hi, Jerry -
I found many sites which list the specifications for the 2005 Prius, and ALL
of them give the ICE max power as 76 HP . It is clearly not 120 HP, as you
state in support of your argument that the Prius ICE is lightly loaded at
highway speeds. The earlier generation Prius ICE is listed as slightly
less power : 70 HP.
So, where did you get your 120 HP value for the Prius ICE??
Also, can you tell us where your claim of 15HP ( at the engine) to drive
this car at 75 MPH came from?
Have you done a calculations based on CD, frontal area, estimated drive
train losses and tire rolling resistance, etc,. or is this an estimate based
on your ev rule of thumb ?
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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Hi John;
Heres one! Open up the brush cover on the motor RIGHT NOW! Sorry for
shouting, but if your brushes arent in good contact with the comm, you could
be chewing up the comm. with a crappy connection. When you look in at the
comm, is it bright and shiny?? Is it burnt and blackened? This is a long
shot, but if you ever had old power tools, and ya hafta bang on them to get
a start. Warn out brushes is a likely thing?Most unlikely in an EV because
you would smell something, with the burning arcing capacity of a healthy
battery pack. But whatthehell, check the motor as it's only a few minutes to
see hows the motor's feeling.
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "john" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:46 AM
Subject: accelleration troubles
> Hey again.
> Am having trouble still with my 85 Dodge truck. The motor does not always
connect when I push on the accellerator. It might take 4 or 5 pumps before
it catches. My friend and I checked the potbox, it works fine, had the
controller checked out it is great, checked the wiring all ok. My question
is could it be the motor? We are stumped. I bought this already converted
and it ran for years with good service. It has 144 volt, Kodiak controller.
ANY suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> John Barnes in Tucson
>
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