EV Digest 4876
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Double Electronic Disasters in Kansas City
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EDTA Conference Info
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Junper Cablres was: Standardization of wire gauge in advertising?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EDTA Conference Info, comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: No Trasmission?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: wiring the garage for EVs...
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: No Trasmission?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Junper Cablres was: Standardization of wire gauge in advertising?
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Scirocco
by Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: No Trasmission?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: No Trasmission?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: No Trasmission?
by "Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Scirocco advise needed
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Junper Cablres was: Standardization of wire gauge in advertising?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: No Trasmission?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Junper Cablres was: Standardization of wire gauge in advertising?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Scirocco
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
No, the email included no link at all. I use Eudora for an email
software ond one of its's nice features is it points out falsified
links in emails. I have gotten lots of those phishing emails, mostly
claiming to be banks, a couple claiming to be Paypal, and a few from
eBay. I just forward them to the appropriate abuse link at the real
institution.
I think Yahoo's problem is my email says it is from evalbum.com but
the header shows it was sent from an IP address registered
to kc.rr.com (my Roadunner account). Really, that is spoofing even
though the evalbum.com URL is registered to me. I think the only way
I can get any satisfaction from Yahoo is if I somehow send an email
to them with the header also showing evalbum.com. Since I don't have
an email service on that account, just email forwarding, I am not
sure how I could do that. If anyone has any great advice on that,
please contact me off list. As it is this message is running very
close to be inappropriate for the EVDL, it's electric aspect is rather thin.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
At 12:04 AM 11/1/2005, you wrote:
Hope Mike did not try to get his account re-instated by
logging in according the instructions in such a Phishing mail.
(That might explain why he can't get Yahoo access anymore)
I usually get them from banks that I do not even have an
account with ;-)
Though they are also sent as Ebay and Paypal spoofs, which
requires to stay alert as the websites look like the real
thing, only the URL is not, for example paypal.signin4229.com
Also the subject "Your Account" usually sets off alarm bells
as that and the way you are addressed "Dear Paypal user" is
a dead giveaway that they have no clue and are not genuine.
The key is to recognise them as being fake before even
clicking on the link and sending the original mail plus
headers to the spoof/scam investigation department of the
real organisation, so they can deal with them.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Chapman
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 5:45 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Double Electronic Disasters in Kansas City
Mike, I also have a Yahoo account for dealing with the various groups I
subscribe to. RE: the account suspension notice from Yahoo, were they in
your bulk inbox or your regular e-mail inbox? I have gotten a # of these
(like 2 dozen) in my bulk mail inbox and it turned out that they are spoofs
/ potential trojan horse. I cannot help but wonder if this might be related
to your computer problem. I foreward all of them to the yahoo spam unit and
they seemed to go away. HTH, David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 8:44 PM
Subject: Double Electronic Disasters in Kansas City
> Hi folks,
>
> This just hasn't been my week.
>
> Disaster number one. As most of you are no doubt aware, I am the
> webmaster of the EV Album and the EV Tradin' Post. You probably don't
> know I also created and moderate the C-Car egroup for Citicar and
> Comutacar owners, and I do the same for Mid-America Electric Auto
> Association egroup. Both groups are hosted by Yahoo. Anyway, this week I
> got a message from the yahoos at Yahoo telling me my account was cancelled
> for violating the Terms of Service. What exactly my violation was they
> didn't say, and so far I have utterly failed to get them to explain the
> problem, or even respond to my emails. The upshot of this is while I have
> several folks waiting to be approved to join these groups, I am not
> permitted to log in and do so. Meanwhile I seem to still be able to post
> and receive messages to these groups, which makes no sense at all.
> Fortunately, I use a different ID when servicing the chapter webpage and
> my personal EV pages which are hosted on Yahoo/Geocities so I can still
> access those. Does anyone know anything about getting a response out of
> the Yahoo folks? It would be nice to at least be able to hand over
> ownership of the groups to someone else so they could continue to grow.
>
> Disaster number two. About 5:00 this evening, my laptop, which is my
> primary PC, suddenly went black and displayed a warning of a problem and
> said to reboot. I did so and that was all she wrote. It looks as though
> the hard drive has died, taking all my data with it. All it does now is
> clack loudly. Setup doesn't even see it as being installed. As is always
> the case when this sort of thing happens, my most current backup is about
> 6 months old. All EV Album submissions and email since June have been
> lost. If it hasn't already been posted to the Album, it is gone. Adding
> to the fun, I also lost the email address and file number for the Yahoo
> issue.
>
> I have now made the old CAD PC I use for a home web server and print
> server my primary PC and have my email and web editing tools up and
> running on it. It has been a long time since dual PII 400 Zeons were
> cutting edge, and Intergraph no longer even makes PCs, but despite its age
> it still does a more than adequate job. I guess it is also time to shop
> for a new laptop hard drive.
>
> Anyway, three things to share from all this. First back up your PC
> frequently. Second, if you haven't got your EV in the Album, or have
> submitted it but not seen it posted, please submit it. Third, if you
> setup an egroup, make sure you have alternate moderators with full rights,
> even if they are just you with a different user ID and email address.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/148 - Release Date: 10/25/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out www.edtaconference.com for EV conference info and www.edta.org
for general info.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: EDTA Conference hotel
> Mark,
>
> what conference??
>
> --- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi, I was curious if anyone wanted to split a room
> > at the Pan Pacific Vancouver Hotel 300-999 Canada
> > PL, Vancouver, BC V6C3B5 CA 1-800-444-6835 where the
> > EV conference is. I'll be staying the week from Dec
> > 3rd - Dec 10th. I also saw a few el cheapo's on
> > priceline and hotels.com nearby.
> > Thanks, Mark
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: Standardization of wire gauge in advertising?
> If you buy a normal jump start cables with huge alligators
> in a common auto store, chanced to fall into this trap are
> perhaps >50% if a wire is made and packaged in the far east.
>
> Victor
> Hi All;
I KNEW this one would pop up. At least they still tell you what the crap
is when you buy jumper cables. They cheeringly tell you that they are 10
gage wire, in a hulking cable that LOOKS like 4 or 6 gage. But they are
worthless for starting anything bigger than a Briggs and Stratton! Seems
like you hafta MAKE your own usable jumper cables! You just can't BUY them
today! I made a set from RR car wiring when they were scrapping coaches.
Wires, like dead entrails lay all about, asking for a better home. 15 feet
or so right there. NOW if I can pry them out of my motorhead, ICE ,kid's
hands<g>!
In todaze reasoning howthehell are you gunna start ANYTHING with a
300 -400 amp load @ 12 volts with the Chinese, or American crap at ANY parts
store.?? Only thing these are good for is when yuor DC to dc craps out you
can tap off the traction pack to get home!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: EDTA Conference Info
> Check out www.edtaconference.com for EV conference info and www.edta.org
> for general info.
> Mark
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 12:51 PM
> Subject: Re: EDTA Conference hotel
>
>
> > Mark,
> >
> > what conference??
> >
> > --- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi, I was curious if anyone wanted to split a room
> > > at the Pan Pacific Vancouver Hotel 300-999 Canada
> > > PL, Vancouver, BC V6C3B5 CA 1-800-444-6835 where the
> > > EV conference is. I'll be staying the week from Dec
> > > 3rd - Dec 10th. I also saw a few el cheapo's on
> > > priceline and hotels.com nearby.
> > > Thanks, Mark
> > >
> > >Hi All;
Looks like fun, but check out the prices!! About 600-700 bux! A bit
pricy for most of us, didn't see any One Day Deals, sigh! Will they be
talking real Electrics or Fool Sells?
won't Seeya there
Bob
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
> > http://farechase.yahoo.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rodney,
I am talking here with my master mechanic, it he say's just use multiple torque
converters in place of the flywheel, pressure plate and clutch connected to a
standard transmission. Just used the transmission in final gear or you can
shift it into a reversed gear. He say's this is normally done in industrial
machines.
If you used a torque converter rated for 1.8:1 ratio, this would be about the
same range of 1.0:1 TO 1.8:1 gear ratio of final to a 2nd gear. Now ganging
two torque converters together would be 1.8:1 x 1.8:1 = 3.24:1 which would have
the range from 1st gear to final gear in the transmission.
At 3.24:1 ratio, you should at least have a axle ratio of any thing from 4 to 6
to one. My overall ratio in 1st gear is about 19.5:1 with a 3.5:1 1st gear.
Now you could lower the axle gear by adding three torque converters which would
be 1.8:1 x 1.8:1 x 1.8:1 = 5.832:1. Using a axle ratio of 3.08:1 would give
3.08:1 x 5.832:1 = 17.96:1 overall ratio at start up.
If you went to a 6.33:1 axle ratio this would be 36.9:1 where you smoke the
tires all the way to 134 mph at 10000 rpm.
Used the following formula for calculation of any unknowns of speed, rpm, axle
ratio and tire roll out circumference.
RPM x Tire Circumference
Mph = ---------------------------------
Ratio x 1056
Note: Ratio could be any transmission gear ratio, or the overall ratio where
you multiply the transmission gear ratio times the axle ratio.
I think the Lenco Transmission Company builds these units in stages which are
stack together. The ones I seen were hydraulic disc plates.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodney<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: No Trasmission?
Thanks for all the info guys, leaves me a bit to think about.
The other possibility is using a CVT (continuously variable transmission)
which still eliminates clutches and changes, but keeps the possibility of
gearing up or down the CVT, so for hills, starts it can start low and then
move up (continuously!) to enable a much higher top speed?
Anyone used one, or know of any manufacturers of CVT's or the newer IVT
(enables reverse through the transmission, rather than contactors)?
Cheers
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It should be treated as a separate service with the attendent ground rods.
And the neutral and ground should be on separate bars, I believe. Only at
the main service is the ground and neutral connected together, and then only
at the meter base.
As far as breaker size goes, it depends on the wire partly - #10 wire
requires no more than a 30 amp breaker, but on #8 or larger wire a 40 amp
breaker can be used. The larger breaker would be better for the unit, as it
won't tend to trip as often.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:53 PM
Subject: wiring the garage for EVs...
> This is electrician-oriented...
>
> I'm planning to add an Avcon (ICS) charger and eventually a Magnecharger
> to the barn/garage which is ~50 feet away from the house. Fortunately
> the house has a 200 amp service feed :-)
>
> The prior owner/builder did something weird running separate neutral and
> ground wires out to the barn and then joining them together on a single
> neutral bar once there. I'm sure this is wrong.
>
> Question is what is right? Is it treated like a sub-panel in the same
> building with separate ground and neutral wires from the house, kept
> separate in the sub-panel? Or more like a service entrance with only the
> neutral coming from the house and a new ground established from ground
> rod(s).
>
> (and yes I know that ground rods aren't always the greatest 'ground' but
> that is what is accepted practice...)
>
> For bonus points, the ICS units says it pulls 24 amps maximum (which
> just happens to be 80% of 30 amps). Yet the installation directions say
> to use a 40 amp breaker. Any reason to use the larger breaker and
> wiring, rather than a 30 amp breaker?
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the old Subaru Justy had a CVT. Maybe you could adapt one of those.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Years ago, when I bought my first (and only, thus far!) set of jumper
cables, I got a 16 ft. of #4 extra-heavy duty set. Can't even find them
nowadays!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:34 AM
Subject: Junper Cablres was: Standardization of wire gauge in advertising?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:20 AM
> Subject: Re: Standardization of wire gauge in advertising?
>
> > If you buy a normal jump start cables with huge alligators
> > in a common auto store, chanced to fall into this trap are
> > perhaps >50% if a wire is made and packaged in the far east.
> >
> > Victor
>
> > Hi All;
>
> I KNEW this one would pop up. At least they still tell you what the
crap
> is when you buy jumper cables. They cheeringly tell you that they are 10
> gage wire, in a hulking cable that LOOKS like 4 or 6 gage. But they are
> worthless for starting anything bigger than a Briggs and Stratton! Seems
> like you hafta MAKE your own usable jumper cables! You just can't BUY them
> today! I made a set from RR car wiring when they were scrapping coaches.
> Wires, like dead entrails lay all about, asking for a better home. 15 feet
> or so right there. NOW if I can pry them out of my motorhead, ICE ,kid's
> hands<g>!
>
> In todaze reasoning howthehell are you gunna start ANYTHING with a
> 300 -400 amp load @ 12 volts with the Chinese, or American crap at ANY
parts
> store.?? Only thing these are good for is when yuor DC to dc craps out you
> can tap off the traction pack to get home!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul,
Thanks for your response. I just want to make sure I
understand the issues here.
When you said peppy was out the window, was that
because I'm thinking of using flooded batteries, not
because of the motor size or the voltage? Flooded
batteries can only deliver about 400 amps, regardless
of the voltage or configuration??? That would limit
the torque the motor could provide??? Is this all
correct?
Is that all flooded batteries or just golf cart
batteries?
Is there a better combination of motor/batteries
without getting overly expensive or exotic? To stay at
3,000 lbs. GVW, looks like I'll have room for about
1,200 lbs. of lead. Do I just have to wait for peppy
until I can afford higher end batteries? If so, will
it make a difference in the long run whether I chose
the 8" or the 9" motor?
Thanks
Ken
-snip-
There goes peppy, right out the window. Actually, that
not totally
fair. You can get peppy with 10 flooded 12 volt
batteries, but
generally their life span is not that great in an EV.
Its not the motor
that will define peppy (unless its way to small to
take the power) but
the voltage and amps you can toss at it. Golf cart
batteries don't like
dishing out over 400+ amps. Their voltage starts to
fall rapidly.
Combined with their weight (great for range)
increasing your vehicle
weight the result is not peppy.
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bill and All,
Bill Dennis wrote:
I think the old Subaru Justy had a CVT. Maybe you could adapt one of those.
Bill Dennis
I'm a Sube fan, they're great cars, but this isn't such a great idea.
The cool little Justy indeed, used a CVT. It was not a reliable tranny
however, and even with the small amount of torque coming out of the
Justy's tiny low powered 4, it had problems dealing with it. The super
high torque produced by an EV's electric motor would destroy this CVT in
a manner of minutes.
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
James Massey wrote:
I did happen to stumble on the white zombie.... this might
be fine for a quick drag, but what I was wondering was if this could
also be
used for a street car?
Don't let those stickers fool you. White Zombie 'is' a street car.
From James:
John Wayland (owner of White Zombie) aparently often uses the car for
street use, and just for fun picking on Vipers and similar in short
[green light to the speed limit] drags where the low-speed
acceleration excels. But the car is fine for trips to the shops, too.
John may have some comments (assuming he followed this far) John?
Yes, it's driven to work on occasions, driven to the grocery store,
driven around town, driven to various car shows and EVents, and of
course, driven to the race track! It's not used as often as Blue Meanie
is, because the Meanie's plenty quick enough, has seating for four, has
a cozy interior with tunes, and the final reason....my wife knows how
powerful WZ is and puts limits on my street time in that car :-(
Is this system basically the same as a tranmission's gearing?
Nope, the rpm never changes with the 'electrical shift' and merely
keeps climbing higher.
And at top speed in parallel mode, is the consumption of the motors
so high that you
drain your battery packs too fast?
Any EV at top speed is going to drain the batteries too fast :-) Two
motors easily moving a car as opposed to one under-sized motor working
too hard, actually use less current to get the job done. On the other
hand, a single motor properly sized can match two motors.
My two Datsun 1200 sedans are identical '72 models, but one has a single
9 inch motor with 4 speed tranny, Z 1K controller, a 156V pack, and
skinny LRR tires, while the other has the equivalent of two 8 inch
motors, no tranny, a Z 2K controller, a 348V pack, and fat traction
tires. Each car weighs ~ 2300 lbs. Perhaps I can sometime, make some
good comparisons in efficiency between the two.
From James:
....I wonder how much/if any White Zombie could improve at the top end
with twin 2000A Zilla controllers instead of one in S/P).
There would have to be enough battery power to deliver all those extra
amps twin controller could deliver. Is there enough right now? Don't
know, we're still sorting out all the data. Don't tempt me on
this....another Z 2K Zilla will be on hand for next year's racing, one
for the minitruck. It's not entirely out of the question to put two of
them in the car for a little experimentation purposes :-)
Summary....direct drive either with twin motors or one larger one, works
well if properly executed. Blue Meanie is light enough and has a big
enough motor (ADC 9 inch) and controller (Z 1K Zilla), that it can be
driven as a direct drive car by simply leaving it in either 3rd or 4th
gear all the time. The acceleration is very adequate, and taking off on
slight hills in 4th is no problem, though 3rd has considerably higher
take-off power and can still take the car up to and over 80 mph. I would
not encourage direct drive in a heavy (more than 2600 lbs. or so) EV,
unless the gearing was such that top speed was limited to around 80 mph.
If one lives in hilly areas, the twin motor with series/parallel shift
would be a good idea. The simplest and least expensive version would be
a manual tranny car with a single motor, but with a lively power to
weight ratio so that direct drive is easy to do by leaving the selector
in 3rd or 4th.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
Thanks firstly for all the great input and ideas!
I guess I feel a little bit better about using two drives and the 'electric'
shifting by the Zilla controller. But any more ideas about also/instead
using either a CVT or torque converters? Perhaps a combination of all or
some? There are some newer, high strength CVT out now that could handle the
torque generated (by either one or two 9" motors). Alternatively, perhaps
the multiple torque setup as suggested by Roland and his mechanic?
I wish I was an engineer, this is all just a little above my head! John, do
you still use a differential and torque converter with your twin drive
setup? I would also be very interested in your 'comparison' of your two
datsuns... Sounds interesting!
PS does anyone have the Netgain charts for the 8" and 9" motors for upper
end torque and power (1000 and 2000 Amps and 300+ Volts)?
Cheers
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 5:27 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: No Trasmission?
Hello to All,
James Massey wrote:
>> I did happen to stumble on the white zombie.... this might be fine
>> for a quick drag, but what I was wondering was if this could also be
>> used for a street car?
>
Don't let those stickers fool you. White Zombie 'is' a street car.
From James:
> John Wayland (owner of White Zombie) aparently often uses the car for
> street use, and just for fun picking on Vipers and similar in short
> [green light to the speed limit] drags where the low-speed
> acceleration excels. But the car is fine for trips to the shops, too.
> John may have some comments (assuming he followed this far) John?
>
Yes, it's driven to work on occasions, driven to the grocery store, driven
around town, driven to various car shows and EVents, and of course, driven
to the race track! It's not used as often as Blue Meanie is, because the
Meanie's plenty quick enough, has seating for four, has a cozy interior with
tunes, and the final reason....my wife knows how powerful WZ is and puts
limits on my street time in that car :-(
>> Is this system basically the same as a tranmission's gearing?
>
Nope, the rpm never changes with the 'electrical shift' and merely keeps
climbing higher.
>> And at top speed in parallel mode, is the consumption of the motors
>> so high that you drain your battery packs too fast?
>
Any EV at top speed is going to drain the batteries too fast :-) Two motors
easily moving a car as opposed to one under-sized motor working too hard,
actually use less current to get the job done. On the other hand, a single
motor properly sized can match two motors.
My two Datsun 1200 sedans are identical '72 models, but one has a single
9 inch motor with 4 speed tranny, Z 1K controller, a 156V pack, and skinny
LRR tires, while the other has the equivalent of two 8 inch motors, no
tranny, a Z 2K controller, a 348V pack, and fat traction tires. Each car
weighs ~ 2300 lbs. Perhaps I can sometime, make some good comparisons in
efficiency between the two.
From James:
> ....I wonder how much/if any White Zombie could improve at the top end
> with twin 2000A Zilla controllers instead of one in S/P).
There would have to be enough battery power to deliver all those extra amps
twin controller could deliver. Is there enough right now? Don't know, we're
still sorting out all the data. Don't tempt me on this....another Z 2K Zilla
will be on hand for next year's racing, one for the minitruck. It's not
entirely out of the question to put two of them in the car for a little
experimentation purposes :-)
Summary....direct drive either with twin motors or one larger one, works
well if properly executed. Blue Meanie is light enough and has a big enough
motor (ADC 9 inch) and controller (Z 1K Zilla), that it can be driven as a
direct drive car by simply leaving it in either 3rd or 4th gear all the
time. The acceleration is very adequate, and taking off on slight hills in
4th is no problem, though 3rd has considerably higher take-off power and can
still take the car up to and over 80 mph. I would not encourage direct drive
in a heavy (more than 2600 lbs. or so) EV, unless the gearing was such that
top speed was limited to around 80 mph.
If one lives in hilly areas, the twin motor with series/parallel shift would
be a good idea. The simplest and least expensive version would be a manual
tranny car with a single motor, but with a lively power to weight ratio so
that direct drive is easy to do by leaving the selector in 3rd or 4th.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jody Dewey writes:
> ANY metal in the oil won't hurt the zilla at all. You are running the
> coolant through a passage that is connected to the drivers but they don't
> actually touch.
Correct for all normal controllers. They mount their semiconductors to a metal
heat spreader. There is an electrical insulating sheet between this heat
spreader and the actual heatsink. The fins or water passages are in the
heatsink, not the heat spreader. Thus, they are isolated from the
semiconductors (no high voltage on the fins or coolant, so they are safe to
touch).
Sometimes, the designer uses semiconductors with an isolated package, or puts
the insulator directly between the semiconductor and heatsink. This eliminates
the separate heat spreader, making it cheaper and easier to assemble. However,
this doesn't work as well thermally, because the insulator is much smaller and
creates a bottleneck for the heat.
So, I was proposing an alternative that is used in sophisticated high-tech
cooling systems. You use a nonconductive liquid coolant, like oil or fluorinert
(or even distilled water, if a small leakage current is tolerable). Your
semiconductors are either submerged in the coolant, or mounted to a heat
spreader that is directly cooled with the coolant. There is no insulator; the
coolant itself provides the insulation.
Auto transmission fluid is sufficiently nonconductive for this, even if it has
suspended metal particles in it. Any large enough particles to cause an
isolation problem are easily filtered out without creating any serious
restrictions.
Physically, such a controller could be a copper or aluminum heat
spreader/bussbar to which all the transistors are mounted. It is drilled for
oil passages, with fittings to connect rubber hoses. It is also drilled with
boltholes to connect your cables to the motor and battery. Finally, it would
have holes or other physical mounting means to mechanically secure it so it
can't touch the case or anything exposed. The hose fittings are "live", but
this doesn't matter as long as you arrange things so you can't touch them when
the controller is installed and powered, and use a nonconductive liquid as the
coolant.
An alternative construction is used for air-cooled systems. You construct a
thin metal case from corrugated sheet metal, with sufficient surface area to
radiate the amount of heat needed. The semiconductors mount to ordinary PC
boards with ordinary construction techniques, with little or no heatsink on the
semiconductors themselves. Then the case is filled with your coolant. The
circuit board is operated submerged. There is usually a small "stirrer" to
circulate the liquid inside, constantly moving it between semiconductors and
finned case.
The Cray supercomputers used this technique for their power supplies. They were
incredibly small for their power level, yet ran amazingly cool.
Or, if the liquid inside the case has a phase change at the desired
semiconductor operating temperature, you can use just enough of it to submerge
the semiconductors at the bottom, and put the fins on the top. The heat from
the semiconductors boil the liquid, and the vapor recondenses when it touches
the fins on the case. With this setup, no pump or stirrer is needed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Silicon Valley.
-----Original Message-----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 10/31/05 6:31:27 PM
To: "ev@listproc.sjsu.edu"<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Scirocco advise needed
yes i do [EMAIL PROTECTED] where are you located ? i am in minnesota
-------------- Original message --------------
> Hi Ken,
>
> I was looking at a Scirocco conversion and even bought a 1984 in really good
> condition. What EA told me is that with their kit only the 1984's and earlier
> would work. They also mentioned that the 9" ADC would work as well.
>
> Now that I have the Force, the Scirocco project is dead. Anyone need a
> glider?
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Bob Bath"
> Sent: 10/31/05 3:52:41 PM
> To: "ev@listproc.sjsu.edu"
> Subject: Re: Scirocco advise needed
>
> hi Ken!
> A 9" motor can be done on a Rabbit, but the motor
> mount basically goes right up against the side frame
> member of the car; ie, it is _tight_. Mike Brown did
> it that way on VoltsRabbit #2. As far as Scirocco,
> you'd probably be best off asking him directly, or
> www.electroauto.com.
> The 9" motor will yield significantly more torque.
>
>
> Best to you on your conversion!
>
> --- Ken Albright wrote:
>
> > I finally found a donor car for my conversion
> > project
> > - a 1986 VW Scirocco. I think it's pretty much a
> > sporty version of the Rabbit. Of course I have lots
> > of
> > questions.
> >
> > If anyone has any experience with a conversion of
> > this
> > vehicle, I'd really like to hear from you. Any
> > special
> > problems to watch out for, etc.
> >
> > Looking at some of the kits, it seems that the ADC
> > 9"
> > motor is too big (too long?) to fit the Rabbits. Is
> > it
> > also too big for the Scirocco? I also see that WarP
> > has a 9" that is shorter. Any idea whether that
> > would
> > work? If so, is it a good choice?
> >
> > Or would a 9" motor be overkill? I'd like a peppy
> > car
> > but not a dragster. I'm thinking 120v flooded to
> > keep
> > it simple. The beginning curb weight is about 2,200
> > lbs.
> >
> > The stock tires are 185/65-14. I reckon I should
> > change to narrower tires. Or would changing to LRR
> > be
> > sufficient? If I need to change size, does anyone
> > know
> > if Rabbit wheels will fit?
> >
> > I'll quit for now. It's exciting to be getting
> > started.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel?
> Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:29:39 -0800, "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Years ago, when I bought my first (and only, thus far!) set of jumper
>cables, I got a 16 ft. of #4 extra-heavy duty set. Can't even find them
>nowadays!
NAPA
Northern Tool
Two sources I know of right off the top of my head.
You really don't need cables that large if you're willing to wait 2-3
minutes for the booster car's alternator to charge the boostee's
battery. That's why the mini-jumper cables are so popular.
Vector makes a cig lighter to cig lighter jumper system that works
great. The dongle contains a switchmode boost converter that jacks up
whatever comes from the lighter to 15 volts. It'll supply between 5
and 10 amps (seems to depend on the individual box) to the boostee. 5
minutes is usually enough. One can even use a portable start pack
that is too weak to actually crank the car by transferring its
remaining energy to the car's battery.
Boating World sells this setup for $4.95 (!) I have one in every
vehicle and use one occasionally. I don't even carry jumper cables
anymore. The portable start pack with a solar panel attached to keep
it charged and fresh is sooooo much more convenient.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:49:45 +0200, "Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>Hi All
>
>Thanks firstly for all the great input and ideas!
>
>I guess I feel a little bit better about using two drives and the 'electric'
>shifting by the Zilla controller. But any more ideas about also/instead
>using either a CVT or torque converters? Perhaps a combination of all or
>some? There are some newer, high strength CVT out now that could handle the
>torque generated (by either one or two 9" motors). Alternatively, perhaps
>the multiple torque setup as suggested by Roland and his mechanic?
A couple of comments. First, the torque multiplication of a torque
converter goes away as the rotor starts turning (the car starts
moving) so other than at launch, it won't do you much good. Two,
fluid type torque converters are notoriously inefficient which is why
they're not used much in industry. Then there is the matter of a
hydraulic system and its losses. Snowmobile-type belt torque
converters are even more inefficient plus they're a high maintenance
item.
If I were building a road-going EV right now I'd use a planetary type
2 speed transmission such as the overdrive units Gear Vendors makes.
This is a small and quite efficient unit with very few moving parts
and tough as nails. GV makes them in a variety of ratios. Two speeds
should be more than enough.
Another option would be a Lenco drag racing gearbox. This is also a
planetary box. It comes in sections, each section containing a
planetary stack. You stack up as many sections as you want gears.
Again, a two speed box would do so a single section would work. You'd
have to check to see which is the least costly.
This setup would also be more efficient than the series/parallel
arrangement that John has made popular, plus it would be cheaper to
implement. The wiring would be vastly simpler too.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
Hi All;
I KNEW this one would pop up. At least they still tell you what the crap
is when you buy jumper cables. They cheeringly tell you that they are 10
gage wire, in a hulking cable that LOOKS like 4 or 6 gage. But they are
worthless for starting anything bigger than a Briggs and Stratton! Seems
like you hafta MAKE your own usable jumper cables! You just can't BUY them
today! I made a set from RR car wiring when they were scrapping coaches.
Wires, like dead entrails lay all about, asking for a better home. 15 feet
or so right there. NOW if I can pry them out of my motorhead, ICE ,kid's
hands<g>!
In todaze reasoning howthehell are you gunna start ANYTHING with a
300 -400 amp load @ 12 volts with the Chinese, or American crap at ANY parts
store.?? Only thing these are good for is when yuor DC to dc craps out you
can tap off the traction pack to get home!
Seeya
Bob
You're right Bob.
I managed to find a cables which specifically said on the package
that it was gauge "4 copper conductor". But the best way really
is to cut off and re-use alligators and get a gauge 4 welding cable.
and make the stuff yourself. Then you know for sure what to rely on.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Several people are doing oil immersion cooling on their PC. It is
quiet, but not exactly the most practical solution. Funny as hell if
you ask me. I'd hate to have to replace a card or cable in there!
Doesn't his choice of sunflower oil eventually turn rancid?
http://www.markusleonhardt.de/en/oelrechner.html
http://www.hwspirit.com/reviews.php?read=16
If no heat sink insulators are used, then the obvious liability is that
a different liquid cooled sink must be used for every component with a
different potential. Of course if you only had 1 less critical
component at a different potential, perhaps that one could have an
insulator.
You do get significantly better cooling without insulators, but one has
to ask whether this is alltogether necessary. Water cooling probably
already produces so much cooling that it ensures low package temps and
the power handling comes down to package limitations rather than
dissipation issues.
Of course another solution is to mount the packages of common potential
to an aluminum or copper block and then connect this through an
insulator to the water cooled block. Then the heat can cross a much
wider area of electrical insulator so the temp difference across the
insulator is lower. The gains may be in doubt due to the longer thermal
path to the sink however.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
So, I was proposing an alternative that is used in sophisticated
high-tech cooling systems. You use a nonconductive liquid coolant,
like oil or fluorinert (or even distilled water, if a small leakage
current is tolerable). Your semiconductors are either submerged in the
coolant, or mounted to a heat spreader that is directly cooled with
the coolant. There is no insulator; the coolant itself provides the
insulation.
Auto transmission fluid is sufficiently nonconductive for this, even if it has
suspended metal particles in it. Any large enough particles to cause an
isolation problem are easily filtered out without creating any serious
restrictions.
Physically, such a controller could be a copper or aluminum heat spreader/bussbar to
which all the transistors are mounted. It is drilled for oil passages, with fittings to
connect rubber hoses. It is also drilled with boltholes to connect your cables to the
motor and battery. Finally, it would have holes or other physical mounting means to
mechanically secure it so it can't touch the case or anything exposed. The hose fittings
are "live", but this doesn't matter as long as you arrange things so you can't
touch them when the controller is installed and powered, and use a nonconductive liquid
as the coolant.
An alternative construction is used for air-cooled systems. You construct a thin metal
case from corrugated sheet metal, with sufficient surface area to radiate the amount of
heat needed. The semiconductors mount to ordinary PC boards with ordinary construction
techniques, with little or no heatsink on the semiconductors themselves. Then the case is
filled with your coolant. The circuit board is operated submerged. There is usually a
small "stirrer" to circulate the liquid inside, constantly moving it between
semiconductors and finned case.
The Cray supercomputers used this technique for their power supplies. They were
incredibly small for their power level, yet ran amazingly cool.
Or, if the liquid inside the case has a phase change at the desired
semiconductor operating temperature, you can use just enough of it to submerge
the semiconductors at the bottom, and put the fins on the top. The heat from
the semiconductors boil the liquid, and the vapor recondenses when it touches
the fins on the case. With this setup, no pump or stirrer is needed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 1, 2005, at 6:54 AM, Ken Albright wrote:
When you said peppy was out the window, was that
because I'm thinking of using flooded batteries, not
because of the motor size or the voltage? Flooded
batteries can only deliver about 400 amps, regardless
of the voltage or configuration??? That would limit
the torque the motor could provide??? Is this all
correct?
Yes. Flooded batteries for EV service can deliver around 400 amps.
Parallel strings of flooded batteries could deliver twice that, but at
1/2 the voltage for a given number (weight) of batteries. Car starting
batteries can deliver a lot more amps, but have around a 10 cycle life
in deep cycle operation.
Golf cart and Marine deep cycle batteries generally have 2 problems
over 400 amps. First the voltage starts falling faster. Since power is
volts times amps the power increases less as the amps rise. Second
problem is that battery cycle life starts to take a hit. You end up
replacing the batteries sooner increasing your cost. Marine batteries
don't generally have anywhere near the cycle life of golf cart
batteries in the first place, so this could really hurt. On the other
hand, with about 1/2 the weight (and range) compared to golf cart
batteries you can get a little bit of pep.
Is that all flooded batteries or just golf cart
batteries?
I've learned a long time ago not to say "all" (or "none") very often.
Someone will find an exception. The common flooded lead choices for on
road EVs are golf cart batteries and marine deep cycle batteries. I'm
not aware of any that like to deliver 600 amps.
Its a power/ weight thing. Voltage times amps times motor efficiency
divided by 746 is horsepower. This is generally set by your battery
pack voltage (the voltage under load) and the controller current limit.
If you load the Scirocco down to 3000lbs with 20 golf cart batteries
and then ask them to give 400 amps at 120 volts you will have a 3000
lb. vehicle with about 50 HP. That will give you roughly the
performance of a 36 HP Bug (like a stock oval window Bug.) I've driven
stock 36 HP Bugs, but I don't consider them "peppy."
Is there a better combination of motor/batteries
without getting overly expensive or exotic? To stay at
3,000 lbs. GVW, looks like I'll have room for about
1,200 lbs. of lead. Do I just have to wait for peppy
until I can afford higher end batteries? If so, will
it make a difference in the long run whether I chose
the 8" or the 9" motor?
Well, the larger motors tend to be more efficient. But the difference
is only a few percent. Both motor sizes seem to take the high peak amps
of performance controllers just fine (thinking of the WarP and ADC
motors often used in EVs.) With a range EV you should consider the
summer temperatures and hills (or lack of them) in the motor choice.
Its possible to have thermal issues with an 8 inch in a 3000 lb.
vehicle if its being forced to move a lot of weight up and down hills
for many miles at a time.
The battery side is setting the limit. 13 Optimas or Exide Orbitals
with a 'Zilla 1k would provide great pep, but limited range (perhaps 25
miles.) You could have 135 HP in a 2400 lb. vehicle. The pack cost
would be similar to 20 golf cart batteries but you would need a better
charging system (regulators and a well behaved charger.) Battery life
would be a combination of how well they are charged and how much of
your range you use regularly. AGMs can last much longer than their
published specs if you can limit regular discharge to not over 50%.
Since you can't add water a brutal charging system can kill them is
considerably fewer cycles than advertised.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
