EV Digest 2409
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Paul MacCready to speak at WPI
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Theoretical range/performance
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: adding an accesory shaft to a motor
by Andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Toyota Celicas
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) evercells
by "Richard Millhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: evercells
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: electrovair
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Newbie question re: Rabbit conversions
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Sparrow down again (still?) Batteries an' Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Fireworks, fun stuff.
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Sparrow down again (still?) Batteries an' Stuff.
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) evercel
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: VW donor questions
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: evercel
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: VW donor questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: evercel an Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: evercel
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: evercel
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Evercel charge algorithm
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: evercel
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Evercel charge algorithm
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: evercel
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: evercel
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Tango Wanted
by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Any chance someone could record the lecture and put it up on realaudio?
Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Paul MacCready to speak at WPI
> oops, sorry. As Jim Coate was kind enough to post, WPI is Worcester
> Polytechnic Institute here in Worcester, Massachusetts.
>
> Details at http://www.wpi.edu/News/Events/Various/testplane.html
>
> Driving Directions at http://www.wpi.edu/About/Visitors/directions.html
>
> Seth
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 01:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Troy, New York???
> >
> > 11/6/02 1:05:11 PM, Marty Bernard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Where is Olin Hall? A state would be a good hint!
> >>
> >> Seth Murray wrote:
> >>
> >>> For those of you interested and in the area,
> >>>
> >>> "Paul MacCready, Ph. D., a world-renowned expert in aeronautics and
> >>> meteorology, will give a talk at WPI titled "Energy of the Future" on
> >>> Nov. 11.
> >>>
> >>> Paul MacCready is the founder and Chairman of AeroVironment, a leader
> >>> in the development of unmanned aerial vehicles, energy efficient
> >>> systems and electrical vehicle systems. ***In 1990, MacCready's
> >>> AeroVironment team developed the GE Impact, the first modern electric
> >>> car, and predecessor to GE's EV-1.*** In 1998, they successfully sent
> >>> their unmanned Helios plane 96,863 feet into the stratosphere,
> >>> breaking
> >>> the world's record for achieving the highest altitude for jet- and
> >>> propeller-powered aircraft. In July 2002, in collaboration with NASA
> >>> and Japan's Post and Telecommunications Ministry, MacCready's team
> >>> successfully tested the first commercial telecommunications
> >>> applications from the stratosphere from the unmanned, solar-powered
> >>> Pathfinder Plus."
> >>>
> >>> November 11, 2002
> >>> 3:00 - 4:00 p.m.
> >>> Room 107 Olin Hall
> >>> Open to the public
> >>>
> >>> See some of you there?
> >>>
> >>> Seth
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> >>>
> >>> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
> >>> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
> >>
> >> --
> >> *********************************************************************
> >>
> >> Martin J. Bernard III, Ph.D.
> >> Executive Director
> >> National Station Car Association
> >> Oakland, California
> >> http://www.stncar.com
> >>
> >> Information Exchange
> >> Technical Support in Developing Station-Car and Shared-Car Programs
> >> Assistance in Developing Funding
> >>
> >> *********************************************************************
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
>
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok I give, what is it? It's too small to be a Comuta-car. It sounds
about the size of a Honda Goldwing, except they don't come with 10" wheels.
One of the important numbers you are missing is Cd, that's short for
coefficent of drag and combined with the frontal area determines how
much aerodynamic drag the vehicle will experience. If you don't know
what it is (and you need to meausre it in a wind tunnel to get a correct
number, or use some hellaciously complicated math) guestimate it. Best
to guess over.
Some ideas for comparison: a glider wing is about 0.1, the GM EV1 (the
most slippery production car ever) was 0.2, typical modern car is
0.3-0.35, most 18 wheelers are around 0.6 to 0.9, and a brick wall is
about 1.0
Of course going by your specs you are trying to build a street racer so
you might not care that much about range, in which case you can ignore
Cd. One of the drag racers would give a better guess at performance,
but I'd guess somewhere around 16 second quarter miles with the YTs,
slower with the NiZn/SVR.
Matthew Muelver wrote:
Hello EVers!
Ok, I've tried Uve's EV calculator and I give up. It talks about a
bunch of stuff that I just don't know and gives numbers that don't
make much sense to me.
I'm trying to determine what kind of performance and range I can
expect from a conversion with these specs:
Glider curb weight: 1300 lbs.
Glider engine weight: ~150 lbs.
Glider wheels/tires: 145-R10 (possibly switching to a more
standard 13" size)
Batteries: 156V Optima YT (possibly 156V NiZn with SVR
booster?)
Motor: WarP 9"
Controller: Raptor 1200
Tranny Gearing: 1st: 2.47
2nd: 1.565
3rd: 0.967
4th: 0.675
FD: 3.739
Charger: PFC-20 (if not a PFC-50)
Frontal Area: A not-very-aero 12 sq.ft. (width x height is
what we're looking for, right?)
Estimated Total Weight: 2100 lbs.
Am I missing anything important? What kind of seat-of-the-pants
performance do you guys think I'll get with this setup? Both with
NiZn/SVR batteries or Optimas?
I'm not trying to farm out difficult math to anyone else, I'm just
looking for educated guesses.
Thanks!
Matt
--
My Favorite Quotes:
"God Bless America." - President George W. Bush
"Let's roll." - Todd Beamer
"From my cold dead hands!" - Charleton Heston, NRA President
"Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall!" - President Ronald Reagan
"Words mean things." - Rush Limbaugh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> This sounds like it would be one way to deal with getting vacuum.
>> Unfortunately, I do not have a shaft coming out the end of the
>> motor. And I don't think it's an easy job to put one there
>> either - the whole motor has to come apart, and put in a
>> different rotor (?).
>> Chuck Hursch
>> Larkspur, CA
>>
>
> Yeah! I have given this a thought, or two. Let me run this idea by
>EVerybody on my idea for a fix here; What if ya pulled the armature, chucked
>in a lathe and could centre-bore that end of the shaft, press a new shaft
>into the hole, like TIGHT fit, maybe welding it in, cutting and grinding the
>thing smooth.
> Bob
I'd recommend against welding, very hard to avoid distortion as the weld
cools leading to a warped shaft. You could use a low temperature silver
solder but there is a cooler way.
Make the hole smaller (how much smaller depends on shaft size) than the
shaft and chill it with dry ice or liquid nitrogen. With the right fit
the shaft will slide into the hole with a little help from a small
hammer. When the shaft warms up and expands it will be permanently
locked into the hole. Probably best to try a test piece first, if the
hole is to small you may not get the shaft in too far before it warms up
and you'll be stuck part way in.
If you do it right it makes a very solid joint with nothing visible
holding it together.
I used to like doing dissimilar metals like stainless to aluminum, no
bolts, no weld bead just a hairline joint.
--
Andrew King
Ann Arbor Michigan
technology is the answer, what was the question?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have a look at the Tokoyo Motor Show database:
http://db.motorshow.or.jp/cgi-bin/car_history/top_en.html
It has an entry for the first year of each model, so for the Celica
you can find the models from these years:
1970, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1980, 1981, 1985, 1989, 1993
According to that site, the 1985 model weighs 1110kg which is approx
2500lb. They should all be similar up to the 1988 model.
Here is the record for the 1985 model:
http://db.motorshow.or.jp/cgi-bin/car_history/detail.pl?style=en&id=1985008
At one stage I was thinking about a Celica but people told me "oh,
they're too heavy". They have a reputation for a very strong (heavy)
gearbox. But they would have been talking about the more recent
models. (The 1989 type is 1400kg = 3000lb).
I'm puzzled as to what "wt-l-bhp 1905" would mean. It's not close to
the weight figures, and I'm pretty sure it isn't brake horsepower!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 1sclunn [mailto:1sclunn@;msn.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 7 November 2002 19:42
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Toyota Celicas
>
>
> I just picked up a nice 88 Toyota ( I think calicos) Its got the blown
motor
> and I think it would make a nice conversion . got manual tran and looks
very
> light also its body/inside is in great shape . I didn't see any of these
> cars in the album though and was wondering why . title say wt-l-bhp 1905
.
> guess that means 1905 lbs ?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
avoid the chargers like the plauge. Rumors have it the second batch is even
worse than the first.. something that I thought was impossible.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Millhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 10:02 PM
Subject: evercells
What ever happened to the group buy of evercells? Also, tell me what you
know about their individual chargers that come with them. I got a price of
$299 each with the chargers, or less without. I've got a Lester for my 108
volt project. Will it work for those batteries? Thanks for your time.
Uncle Rich in Central Oregon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The interesting thing about the Electrovair was its
silver-zinc batteries. Silver-zinc produces about
four times the capacity of a lead acid battery of the
same volume and weight. One serious disadvantage
is cost. I recall reading that the Electrovair batteries
contained about $18000 worth of silver at the time it
was built about 35 years ago. I don't want to know
what the batteries would cost with today's inflated dollars.
Silver-zinc batteries were used extensively in the US
manned space flight mission. I've read that the nickel-zinc
battery has the potential to match the performance of
silver-zinc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 1:14 PM
Subject: electrovair
>
> Lee,
>
> I never heard of this vehicle before, but after a quick search I found
>
> http://www.corvaircorsa.com/monzapr7.html
>
> Very interesting.
>
> Rod
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie question re: Rabbit conversions
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> > > > Unfortunately, I do not have a shaft coming out the end of the
> > > > motor. And I don't think it's an easy job to put one there
> > > > either - the whole motor has to come apart, and put in a
> > > > different rotor (?).
> >
> >
> > > Yeah! I have given this a thought, or two. Let me run
> > this idea by EVerybody on my idea for a fix here; What if ya
> > pulled the armature, chucked in a lathe and could centre-bore
> > that end of the shaft, press a new shaft into the hole, like
> > TIGHT fit, maybe welding it in, cutting and grinding the
> > thing smooth...
>
> I'm reading all this and wonder why people go through
> as much trouble as re-machining the motor shaft, put pulleys
> and belts running the vac pumps, if electric vac pumps do it
> for far less money, space, power losses and can be mounted
> anywhere?
>
> Just for love of tinkering? Just curious.
> Hi Victor;
OK I'll bite! I didn't want the #$%^ noisy one I had, the plumbing and
electrical load on the 12 volt battery. I HAD the vacuum pump that came with
the car, it was used to that one. DO have an output shaft on the motor just
there, already. I probably would go electric if I hadn't the shaft already.
It is quiet, repairable when it dies, the diaphram, for 15 bux, and the
simple vacuum hose is all the "plumbing" I had to run to the vac pack.I
don't think any of the electric pumps are "Cheap" in my book.Rather spend
the few hundred bux on a dc to DC converter, which I did.
Seeya
Bob
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: John G. Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 10:01 PM
Subject: Sparrow down again (still?)
> Well, I took my Sparrow for another test drive tonight of about 15
> miles. Found I have 1 battery that seems to be weak. After the 15.8 mile
> run it was 11.2v, while all the others were around 12.5v. sigh.
> It was really helpful to have the LED's for the MKII"s in the cab, as that
> is what told me that something may be wrong. Just the one low-volt LED
> came on. They are currently set for 10v indication.
> This kind of puts me out of commission, as I can't make my
> commute. AAARRGGHHH!!!
>
> I need some Evercells!
> (and a PFC-20 with Enhancer of course)
> --
Hi John an' All;
We all do! Gotta start thinking of a pack of Evercells or SOME other
battery, for sure! My mighty T-145's are starting to lose it range wise,
with the colder weather. Did about 50 miles tonite, and was way down, coming
home. Oh, I made it alright, but... Pooh! Was down to about 90 volts under
load in the last few miles. Arrived home, they DID spring back to 120, but
had it been COLD, say 15 degrees instead of a wussy 30 or so, woulda been
plugging in Somewhere on the way home, and STILL out there.
I'm NEVER going to give up driving electric.. EVER! EVER! Damn it! I
will spend what it takes to get more exotic batteries when I can. I am ready
to spend 5-6 ,or more k for what it takes, with a newer glider, and go from
there. So, lets hear it for EVercells or Nicads, whatever. A PFC 20 in my
dream car, too , a Rapture, or If I go AC, Victor? Be looking for something
for a bit of regen. With ,say, 15 Everceells, could run 180-200 volts,
Evercells may not dish out zillions of amps, but a few hundred@ 200 volts
should give me decent road performance.Nobody said anything about if large
amp draws kill Evercells?They may current limit themselves to what they are
comfortable with? With a say, 600 lb pack load, car won't be an elephant on
roller skates! Wouldn't NEED 400 amp turnpike launches I put my T145's
through EVery day? And I will spend less on a dynamite PURE Electric than
buying a Insite or Civic, something to think about.
We hafta close in on this battery thing, once and for all. Sheer, My
hero, doing the test pilot thing, anybody else? Guess I should put my money
where my mouth is.Anti up for the WhatEVercells and get going.
Ideas? Ready to step up to the plate.
Damn fed up with lead Batteries!
Bob
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Put a Keystone CL-60 inrush shurge protector in series with the input. Or
get a DCPower DC converter that is better made.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: Fireworks, fun stuff.
> Bob Rice wrote:
>
> > > Hi David an' All;
> >
> > This seems to be a Todd Trait. First DC to dc Todd I had,
> when Tony and
> > I connected it, first time, expired in a flaming smoky show of
> "I'm NOT
> > happy here !" outburst. After the smoke show ,it got sorta a
> dare to connect
> > the next one, as yu Todd fans know, there is a pretty good
> "Snap!" whenya
> > hook them up, as there must be a capaciter in there that
> charges at inrush
> > of DC. But ya gotta connect them up to get them to work, so ya
> grit your
> > teeth and DO it!
>
> The good "POP!" and shower of sparks was my first experience with
> my Todd 75A unit when I went to hook it up to a 12V battery (I
> have (did, actually)) this unit on my deck charging batteries,
> not in my car. Fortunately, hooking up through Anderson SB-50
> contacts solves this problem. The AC plug-in can also result in
> a pretty good snap. My practise for most of the Todd's life has
> been to plug in the AC side first, let everything get built up in
> the caps, then hook up the DC.
> >
> > But that's the first thing in Todd care and feeding. They,
> like cats,
> > like clean dry places!! Will remind you if they are unhappy.
>
> Unfortunately, my Todd is somewhat unhappy, as I hear many of
> them are out there. I think mine, though, may be better off than
> many. The DC voltage is unstable. If everything is hunky-dory,
> if I crank the pot fully clockwise, I'll get ~16.40V unloaded,
> staying that way for any number of days. However, what started
> happening a couple of years ago is that this voltage would start
> to drift, moving the whole range of the pot adjustment up and
> down. I could usually get the voltage back up by doing a
> "conditioning" ;-> run, running the charger into a resistor, at
> say either 40A or 70A, depending on how gung-ho I was. After
> half an hour or so of this, the charger would be noticeably
> warmer (fan running), and the voltage would be back up. Checked
> the pot, and it appears within spec (ohms inverse of voltage -
> 250 to 0 ohms). It appears that to pull the circuit boards out
> of the charger is rather a bear, with lots of wires, and what
> looks like (ground?) hooks at the bottom of the cards. Also have
> been told that this maybe a cap problem, or perhaps a circuit
> trace thermal problem (which I may or may not find after taking
> this puppy apart, hopefully without destroying it). I'm told
> that there has been some discussion of Todd problems on this
> list, but still have to go diggin', and maybe there is some stuff
> out on the internet. Anybody on the list with connections or
> knowledge of Todd repairs?
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:27 AM 11/7/2002 -0500, Bob Rice wrote:
We all do! Gotta start thinking of a pack of Evercells or SOME other
battery, for sure! My mighty T-145's are starting to lose it range wise,
with the colder weather. Did about 50 miles tonite, and was way down, coming
home. Oh, I made it alright, but... Pooh! Was down to about 90 volts under
The weak battery in my Sparrow is REALLY frustrating. I just did a whole
LOT of work on the car, and now I can't use it. I installed battery
heaters - which I probably won't need if I go to Evercells.
AARRGGHH!!!
I may buy a new YT to replace the one weak one, but then I need to break it
in without killing it.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi:
I was the one who posted the idea of a group buy of Evercels. While that promoted a
lot of discussion on the list, it didn't seem like people were ready to buy. So, I
called the company direct and heard what we all know: a container of MB80's
and 100's are due in mid-December and will be delivered to their warehouse in New
Hampshire. Pricing on the MB80's is in the mid $200's, $260 I think. I am on their
list. You west coasters probably ought to band together, as a container or
pallet or partial container direct from China would probably result in a huge savings.
The company has just held a conference call for investment analysts. You should all
understand how young this technology/company is: These guys only did $81,000 in sales
for the third quarter, generating a loss of $661,000. They do have
$11mm of cash on their balance sheet, however, which would indicate some staying power.
On the conference call they spent a lot of time talking about their own charger
problems. These seem like they should be avoided at all costs. There was a question
on the list about charging algoithms. Rich and Sheer seem to have indicated
this is still a work in process, and I'd like to hear from them on what their
experience is. There are some good whitepapers on the website. I believe they
indicate a ~22amp constant current charge to 16volts, followed by a 4amp finishing
charge, (dunno termination on this). So to the questioner who asked about using a
Lester, you could do it but not without some auxiliary equipment for the proper
finishing charge. Seems like the PFC's, Brusa's etc which can handle an
algorithm would be loads better.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Beardon wrote:
> Ok, so thanks to Steve B. (of Tropica fame) I have a very
> nice Bradley body to begin my next EV project. So a question
> to you VW aficianados out there: The Bradley is made for the
> pre-Super Beetle VW pan...are there arguments in favor of
> going for IRS (independent rear suspension) years rather than
> swing-axle years? What about upgrading brakes to disc? Any
> related thoughts on what to look for in a donor vehicle? What
> about running gear for a fairly high-performance EV? Any
> thoughts based on experience are appreciated! Michael B.
Hi Michael,
Congratulations on your new project!
Having built a Fiberfab Avenger on a swing-axle pan with a Corvair
engine, allow me to STRONGLY recommend using an IRS version. Despite
having negative static camber, a camber compensator (transverse,
center-pivoted leaf spring) and a lower-than-stock cg, my dad rolled
ours (with surprisingly little damage to dad or car). That's because
swing-axle geometry is inherently self-destabilizing.
I'd also recommend switching to disc brakes. There are probably a dozen
kits available from the hi-perf bug crowd, or lists of the parts
necessary to roll your own. Four-wheel drum brakes are a bad idea for a
heavier-than-stock bug on a long downhill and no engine braking.
Take a look at what Bradley did to stiffen the pan. The original bug
body added necessary stiffness to the chassis, which the Bradley body
probably will not. Fiberfab provided 3"(?) square tubes that bolted to
the trailing arm pivot in the rear and were U-bolted to the front spring
cross tube, with several bolts through the chassis floor along the
length of the tube. This also improves side impact protection.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
fred whitridge wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I was the one who posted the idea of a group buy of Evercels. While that promoted a
>lot of discussion on the list, it didn't seem like people were ready to buy. So, I
>called the company direct and heard what we all know: a container of MB80's
> and 100's are due in mid-December and will be delivered to their warehouse in New
>Hampshire. Pricing on the MB80's is in the mid $200's, $260 I think. I am on their
>list. You west coasters probably ought to band together, as a container or
> pallet or partial container direct from China would probably result in a huge
>savings.
>
> The company has just held a conference call for investment analysts. You should all
>understand how young this technology/company is: These guys only did $81,000 in
>sales for the third quarter, generating a loss of $661,000. They do have
> $11mm of cash on their balance sheet, however, which would indicate some staying
>power.
>
> On the conference call they spent a lot of time talking about their own charger
>problems. These seem like they should be avoided at all costs. There was a question
>on the list about charging algoithms. Rich and Sheer seem to have indicated
> this is still a work in process, and I'd like to hear from them on what their
>experience is. There are some good whitepapers on the website. I believe they
>indicate a ~22amp constant current charge to 16volts, followed by a 4amp finishing
> charge, (dunno termination on this). So to the questioner who asked about using a
>Lester, you could do it but not without some auxiliary equipment for the proper
>finishing charge. Seems like the PFC's, Brusa's etc which can handle an
> algorithm would be loads better.
Your algorithm is very wrong.
Less than 58 amps and never exceed 14.2 volts is what I am using. Higher charge
currents generate more heat. But if cold this is not a issue. Lester chargers would be
DEATH in less than a single cycle. DON't do it.
We are looking for a once only "commissioning" charge like the NiCads have. We are
finding this out by trial and error.
The PFC based full current to a set voltage and then hold the voltage until the
current tapers seams to be a safe and gentle cycle. We need to find a faster method,
so we can qualify, the Whole pack faster, and have a high level of confidence that
all are good and meet the Manufactures specs. It also looks like it takes a few dozen
cycles to get them up to full capacity. Right now and right out of the box you get
about %60 of their rated capacity.
A big warning to you all, before you all buy containers of them, Lets us designers and
Battery management contractors get some real cycles on them. As I have heard the MB80
have yet to see the light of day. Stick with 15s 40s and 100s. The rest is
Well vaporware at the moment.
This stuff is New and we don't want to shell shock Evercell before we get some real
time on them. Having a few 100 batteries fail because we all did know what we were
doing , can have lasting consequences. Remember we Scared Advanced DC out of the
experimental motor business a few years back. Lets not do the same to Evercell.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
> Michael Beardon wrote:
>
> > Ok, so thanks to Steve B. (of Tropica fame) I have a very
> > nice Bradley body to begin my next EV project. So a question
> > to you VW aficianados out there: The Bradley is made for the
> > pre-Super Beetle VW pan...are there arguments in favor of
> > going for IRS (independent rear suspension) years rather than
> > swing-axle years? What about upgrading brakes to disc?
> Having built a Fiberfab Avenger on a swing-axle pan with a
> Corvair engine, allow me to STRONGLY recommend using an IRS
> version. Despite having negative static camber, a camber
> compensator (transverse, center-pivoted leaf spring) and a
> lower-than-stock cg, my dad rolled ours (with surprisingly
> little damage to dad or car). That's because swing-axle
> geometry is inherently self-destabilizing.
While it may be true that the swing-axle geometry is not particularly
ideal, neither is that of the front suspension found on either the
swing-axle or IRS pans. Properly set up, I believe a swing-axle pan can
be quite resistant to rolling (e.g. Formula [Super?] Vee racers),
although it will never handle as well as an equally well set up IRS pan.
FWIW, I have rolled IRS pan-based cars as well. ;^>
What is the intended use of the car? An advantage of the swing-axle pan
is that the rear axles/"u-joints" are virtually indestructible, unlike
the IRS CV joints. If massive torque and/or drag racing type use is
anticipated, then the swing-axle pan may be a better choice, however, if
autocross type use is more of a priority, then the IRS pan may be more
appropriate.
The bug CV joints can be upgraded to Type 2 (bus) or Porsche parts to
handle more torque, and the side plates on the tranny can be replaced
with stiffer parts to keep the case from splitting under high torque
loads. All of this stuff is well documented in the air-cooled VW
performance magazines.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: evercel
Snip!
> Your algorithm is very wrong.
> Less than 58 amps and never exceed 14.2 volts is what I am using.
Higher charge currents generate more heat. But if cold this is not a issue.
Lester chargers would be DEATH in less than a single cycle. DON't do it.
> We are looking for a once only "commissioning" charge like the NiCads
have. We are finding this out by trial and error.
> The PFC based full current to a set voltage and then hold the voltage
until the current tapers seams to be a safe and gentle cycle. We need to
find a faster method, so we can qualify, the Whole pack faster, and have a
high level of confidence that
> all are good and meet the Manufactures specs. It also looks like it takes
a few dozen cycles to get them up to full capacity. Right now and right out
of the box you get about %60 of their rated capacity.
>
> A big warning to you all, before you all buy containers of them, Lets us
designers and Battery management contractors get some real cycles on them.
As I have heard the MB80 have yet to see the light of day. Stick with 15s
40s and 100s. The rest is
> Well vaporware at the moment.
>
> This stuff is New and we don't want to shell shock Evercell before we get
some real time on them. Having a few 100 batteries fail because we all did
know what we were doing , can have lasting consequences. Remember we Scared
Advanced DC out of the
> experimental motor business a few years back. Lets not do the same to
Evercell.
BUT we DID bring Warfield Electric INTO the motor biz for us! Better motors
for ALL of us!
>
Hi Rich an' All;
Good points! Do you think I'm jumping the gun to wanna get some Evercells
for an EV? EVen the tried and true ones like Sheer has in the Honda? What is
he charing with? can I get that setup too. There must be a friendly charging
regimen for these things? I know yur working on it. If I actually BUY these
cells, I'm in line for your charger. can't have one without the other. Seems
like Evercell could use a few test pilots.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Nov 2002 at 8:04, Rich Rudman wrote:
> A big warning to you all, before you all buy containers of them, Lets us
> designers and Battery management contractors get some real cycles on them.
My hat's off to the listers who are creeping along the "bleeding edge" and
doing their best to find out how to make these batteries work. I have basic
unresolved (personal) concerns about the way these batteries are made and
probably will never buy them, but I admire the courage of those who do spend
a few grand on a pack that's really a big unknown. You're making progress
in your garages, not in some big company's high-budget research lab, and
there's something to be said for that. (And there aren't that many big-
budget companies that care about EVs right now anyway.)
For those who want well-documented batteries, backed by a stable company and
a competent team of engineers (whom you can even sometimes understand,
provided you speak French <g>) -- well, for less than what you'll spend on
two Evercell packs -- one to learn on and one to use -- you can have Safts.
You'll get a proven design, explicit instructions for charging and use, and
a minimum cycle life of 2500 (given reasonable care and use). And a little
less adventure. <g>
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- Begin Message ---
At 11:31 AM 11/7/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) stated:
For those who want well-documented batteries, backed by a stable company and
a competent team of engineers (whom you can even sometimes understand,
provided you speak French <g>) -- well, for less than what you'll spend on
two Evercell packs -- one to learn on and one to use -- you can have Safts.
You'll get a proven design, explicit instructions for charging and use, and
a minimum cycle life of 2500 (given reasonable care and use). And a little
less adventure. <g>
Except for one minor little thing. They won't fit. Saft doesn't make
something that will fit in battery boxes designed for Optima YT's.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich:
I didn't make up the charge algorithm, I took it off of:
http://www.evercel.com/chargingalgorithms.html
Scroll down to look at what they suggest for the MB80.
And I wholeheartedly agree not to scare Evercel or even believe they have their
algorithms locked down. Thats why I posed the question.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Nov 2002 at 8:36, John Lussmyer wrote:
> Except for one minor little thing. They won't fit. Saft doesn't make
> something that will fit in battery boxes designed for Optima YT's.
Well, yeah, they do -- but you'd probably have to order a lot more than you
want for your one vehicle.
You can get individual nicad cells. I really mean 1.25 volt CELLS, not
batteries or monoblocks. There's been a trend lately on this list to call
batteries "cells" which is incorrect and confusing and I wish people would
stop doing it. But I digress. (And I also rant a bit now and then. <g>)
Anyway, Saft can make nicad cells in sizes from 40 to 280 amp-hours. The
catch is that most sizes aren't available from stock. You'd have to order
enough to make it worthwhile for Saft to build a run of them.
It's really frustrating. The technology exists now to build advanced
batteries for EVs. They exist as prototypes and are even in limited
production.
But we mortals can't buy them because they cost too much, and they cost too
much because there's no demand, and there's no demand because ... oh, hell,
don't get me started. I don't want to be cranky the rest of the day.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fred and Rich,
Looks like the difference is due to the number of cells in a given module.
I remember that Sheer's MB100's only had 7 cells. Any of Evercel's 7-cell
blocks has a lower overall voltage, which is why they advise charging up to
14v/block.
The new M80-8 is an 8-cell block. That's why Evercel's specs show charging
up to 16v/block.
Doesn't look like an error. The difficulty is a single Evercel NiZn cell is
not equivalent voltage to a single Pba cell, either flood or VRLA.
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: fred whitridge [mailto:fw@;ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:48 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Evercel charge algorithm
Rich:
I didn't make up the charge algorithm, I took it off of:
http://www.evercel.com/chargingalgorithms.html
Scroll down to look at what they suggest for the MB80.
And I wholeheartedly agree not to scare Evercel or even believe they have
their algorithms locked down. Thats why I posed the question.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:56 AM 11/7/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) stated:
On 7 Nov 2002 at 8:36, John Lussmyer wrote:
> Except for one minor little thing. They won't fit. Saft doesn't make
> something that will fit in battery boxes designed for Optima YT's.
Well, yeah, they do -- but you'd probably have to order a lot more than you
want for your one vehicle.
You can get individual nicad cells. I really mean 1.25 volt CELLS, not
batteries or monoblocks. There's been a trend lately on this list to call
batteries "cells" which is incorrect and confusing and I wish people would
stop doing it. But I digress. (And I also rant a bit now and then. <g>)
As far as I can tell, the only cells they make that MIGHT fit are the "SBM
11" and "SBM 15".
These are in mm:
SBM 11 - 194H x 123W x (2 cells at 64, 3 at 94)L
SBM 15 - 194H x 123W x (2 cells at 74, 3 at 108)L
Rather awkward sizes to work with. You'd need to parallel at least 3,
probably 4 to get useful capacity. Lets see,
SBM 15, Taking it down to 1v/Cell, you can draw 14.8A for 30 minutes.
So for cruising at highway speed in my Sparrow, that would take 4 in parallel.
To make the equivalent of a single YT, takes 8 sets in series.
So we choose the cell pairs.
So this is 24 cells at 1.2Kg each, and takes 109,224 sq mm of space.
YT's are 43.8lbs, 10"Lx6.8"Wx7.9"H, which comes to 68 sq inches of
space. (don't you love using different measurement systems!)
(We only care about sq inches of space, since both batteries are
essentially the same height - indeed, that is the main restriction on the
choice of which Saft batteries can be used.)
Hmm, the Safts come out to 169 sq in of space, and 63 lbs.
Don't think it will work. (Unless I screwed up my math of course.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Nov 2002 at 9:37, John Lussmyer wrote:
> As far as I can tell, the only cells they make that MIGHT fit are the "SBM
> 11" and "SBM 15".
You must be looking at a different list. I have their EV applications
catalog, which lists two cells which are roughly 7.8" high. All
measurements are in mm:
STM1.40B 37ah 85L x 45.5W x 198H
STM1.80B 75ah 85L x 85W x 198H
There are a few others that are almost 11" high and some that are even
taller than that.
I'm pretty sure these are one-hour capacities, but don't quote me. In any
case although there's a small drop in capacity at high current, there's no
real equivalent of the Peukert effect for nicads.
These would be the older non-recombinant design, so would require watering
once or twice a month. However, they have automatic caps with fittings to
use a central watering system, which makes the process fairly painless. The
plus side of this is that these cells are close to bulletproof; they shrug
off almost any amount of overcharging, and in fact rather ~like~ to boil
hard.
Again -- as I understand it, these are special order items and they're built
only when the demand justifies it. If you time it right you may be able to
piggyback on someone else's order, but it could be a long wait. Lou M at
Saft would have more specific (and more correct) information. It might be
worth a phone call if you think these could fit -- the worst case would be
"sorry, can't do it."
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Due to the better schooling available farther from my place of employment,
I may soon (in the next year or so) be *increasing* my personal daily VMT
(vehicle miles traveled) by a factor of two. :/
I'll be driving 60+ miles a day, about 30 each way with ability to charge
at work. My current EV will struggle a bit with this, so either I'll need
to do some significant upgrading, or get another EV.
I really like the Tango, anyone know when it will be available?
If I open a Tango dealership can I get one sooner? :)
I'm betting I could sell enough of them through my contacts and marketing
expertise to make the effort worth my while. :)
--
' ____
~/__|o\__
=)---'@----- @'
http://www.SoCalEV.com
--- End Message ---
