EV Digest 2465
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV Fiat Spider
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Confessions of an EV Addict
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: bats "best power"
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV Fiat Spider
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Victor's PowerCheq Mystery SOLVED!!!!
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Selectria Sunrise? the Perfect High-Dollar EV could be built.
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Selectria Sunrise? the Perfect High-Dollar EV could be built.
by "Christopher Meier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Victor's PowerCheq Mystery SOLVED!!!!
by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV Fiat Spider
by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Interesting article
by Teslectric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: HOV stickers : Access OK
by beckettw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Victor's PowerCheq Mystery SOLVED!!!!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: bats "best power"
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Decals/Graphics
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Edison TOU EV
by William Korthof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Selectria Sunrise? the Perfect High-Dollar EV could be built.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Selectria Sunrise? the Perfect High-Dollar EV could be built.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Selectria Sunrise? the Perfect High-Dollar EV could be built.
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) VW porsche engine tranny question
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV Fiat Spider
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Fun with Lawrence
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EV on Ebay
by "cox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Selectria Sunrise? the Perfect High-Dollar EV could be built.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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that is a beautiful car, 4k is a steal . My question is How much would it
cost to do a conversion like that. 15K? I don't mean parts I mean everthing
, drive it in a gas and out an EV. Have you driven it yet(or any EV) ? how
far do you have to drive? I think I'd set it up for 13 bat at 156v and have
a fast sports car if less that 30miles is your needs .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "cox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 4:47 PM
Subject: EV Fiat Spider
> Hey Guys
>
> I am new to the list and have really enjoyed reading.
> I have been watching the EV's for sale and found this one for $4,000
>
> http://cliquot.malamutes.com/fiat_page.htm.
>
> I am a new EV'er and wanted to get your view on this car.
> It has been sitting up for a year, so the 20 batteries are dead, right.
> Any hope of a pulse mode battery device bringing them back to life ?
> And the range stated of 40 miles seems low for 20 Optima's .,
>
> Thanks
>
> Trotman Simpson
> Just a computer Geek interested in becoming an EV geek
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My name is Michael, and I am an addict....
I am thinking that I should crank out a list of symptomatic actions, you
know, one of those lists that ends with an instructive list of questions
or statements that ends with ---"if you have answered 'yes' to 3 or more
of these questions, you may be..."
I don't need another EV; WATTABMR is a very comfortable, rangy,
dependable everyday take-me-to-work EV. It hasn't been that long since
I sold my "extra" EV, the OHMSMBL...so why can't I get the idea of
building another funmobile EV out of my head?
Good management argues against it- our 401K is now down to a 101K, and
my wife is moderately concerned about the state of our personal economy-
enough so that I really need to sell something before I buy any more EV
components in order to keep the domestic peace.
As far as time management. I can't do all of the things that I am
supposed to do in a week now-but I can't wait to start cutting and
welding and fitting and wiring up a juicy little 2 seater of a
Porsche-munching EV.
After my wife told me of her concerns, I had to back off from some
components deals that I was pursuing, but the desire to build is like a
hunger that wants to be fed. I hate the idea of selling WATTABMR, but I
may have to in order to satisfy this craving.
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote:
> he's hot for me to try out these used but in good shape "Best Power
> 12v uninterruptible power system" bats. These are sealed and about
> 95 lbs. 13"L 7"w 11"h.
I've never heard of Best Power batteries; they probably bought them from
someone else. It would help to figure out who, and what make/model
battery they really are, so you could get proper specs on them.
> So I agree to try 5 of them ($40 each). I get them and cycle them
> with a 3 amp load which I leave on for 3 days and the voltage is
> still over 12.3v. At this point it's hard to find the 5 worst batts
> as they all seem pretty bad.
That can't be right. 3 amps x 72 hours = 216 amphours. Not what I'd call
"bad".
> After a few cycles I pull 75 ah and with a 75 amp load I still see
> 11 volts on them. Jon says they are $300 bats. I was just trying
> them to please him but now I don't know what to think.
Reading between the lines, I'd guess they are a gel cell, built for
uninterruptible power supplies. They would be OK for brief, high current
loads (like EVs), but would do much better with lower currents (bad
Peukert exponent). They would be deep-cycle batteries, but life would be
short (like a couple hundred cycles).
I have a set of old UPS batteries (Johnson Controls "Dynasty"
UPS12-270FR). I found that there were substantial differences in their
amphour capacities and internal resistance; it would be hard to make a
balanced pack with them. All required extended equalization, as they had
probably sat for years on a float voltage charger. I equalized them for
several days at 15+ volts at under 0.5 amps; this considerably increased
their capacity.
$40 each might be an OK deal, if you are allowed to test them and keep
only the ones that perform. But I'd never pay over $200 for these
batteries -- they are not built for EVs and would likely have quite a
short life.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:47 PM 12/8/02, you wrote:
Hey Guys
I am new to the list and have really enjoyed reading.
I have been watching the EV's for sale and found this one for $4,000
http://cliquot.malamutes.com/fiat_page.htm.
I am a new EV'er and wanted to get your view on this car.
It has been sitting up for a year, so the 20 batteries are dead, right.
I noticed that the owner said that there is no battery management
system. I saw some wires, but it wasn't clear where they went.
Without some sort of regs or other BMS, the Optimas do not have
much chance for longevity. He didn't say what sort of charger the car has.
If you don't charge these batteries correctly, it shortens their life and
reduces the available capacity.
Depending upon how long he has tortured them, there is a good
chance the pack may be recoverable.
You will have to install some sort of BMS, like Rudman regulators,
and a charger capable of the proper profile, if you get the car.
I should add that the controller, motor, adapter plate, DC-DC
converter, etc, are worth more than the asking price for the entire car. It
appears to be a nice conversion that just needs a few finishing touches in
the charging department.
Any hope of a pulse mode battery device bringing them back to life ?
And the range stated of 40 miles seems low for 20 Optima's .,
Thanks
Trotman Simpson
Just a computer Geek interested in becoming an EV geek
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:47 PM 12/8/02, you wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The PowerCheq units work fine if you connect them directly to the
> battery without sharing wires. Don't share wires and they work OK.
> Share wires and all bets are off.
If I were designing it (with 20/20 hindsight :-) I'd realize that many
battery boxes are completely closed, so you can't see the Powercheq
indicator lights. So, people are going to mount them outside the battery
box with long wires. And it is only natural to want to run one wire to
each inter-battery jumper, not two.
At 2 amps, a 10 foot piece of #14 wire has a voltage drop of 10ft x 2a x
0.0025 ohms = 0.05 volts. It should be possible to design the Powercheqs
with enough hysteresis to tolerate this.
Folks won't run #14, they'll run #18. The run from the front to
the back will be 15 feet. Don't forget the fuse resistance and the
connections.
If they simply extend the existing module wires, all will work OK.
> Each module runs independently. It is not a central system. Module
> A has no idea what module B is doing. If the wiring is separate,
> they don't interfere with each other.
Yes, they are independent. However, even with separate wires, when one
module turns on, it alters the voltages of the two batteries it is
connected to. This in turn affects two other modules (one up, and one
down the string) which are monitoring the same batteries.
Yes. That is the point.
It will only alter them enough to make them equal in voltage,
however. If they are equal, there is not a problem, is there?
Plus, any balancing system has to cope with batteries that are being
loaded or charged independently of the balancing system. These loads may
not all be in series, and may not affect all batteries equally.
Who wired your EV? All loads are across the whole pack. Anyone
that taps the pack well deserves all the headaches and toasted batteries
they get.
>> [Rudman regulators synchronizing] isn't necessarily a fatal flaw.
>> While it looks weird, I didn't see that it actually caused any
>> imbalance problems. A battery isn't going to blink its regulator
>> until it is essentially at the threshold anyway.
> Actually, it is a big problem. As you said earlier, 0.1 volt is a
> big deal in terms of SOC. When a reg turns on, it humps as much as
> 7 amps through the wiring (and the fuse.) This can be a half a volt
> or more on the wire. Regulation is trashed.
It can be if the wires are long and the external loads are heavy. But it
is not a problem with the stock 2amp loads and short wires.
Oh yes it is. They don't work correctly unless the N+1 wires are
ridiculously heavy and quite short. Who runs the stock loads?
When the
Rudman regulator's turn-on/turn-off voltage hysteresis is larger than
the voltage drop caused by wiring and resistors, it seems to work OK.
They work, kind of. But they don't properly balance the batteries.
Been there, done that.
> What is also a problem with common wiring is safety. You have to
> consider what happens if a module (or regulator) shorts out. It pops
> a fuse and now twice the voltage is on the adjacent regulator. It
> shorts out and blows a fuse and now THREE times the voltage is on
> the adjacent regulator. They go like firecrackers when you open up
> a battery.
Yes, that is a problem! The right place for the fuse is in series with
each regulator, not in the common wire to two of them. But this goes
against having a fuse near the battery if you have only one wire.
The main reason to have the fuse is to prevent a fire in the
wiring. If there is no harness, there is much less need for a fuse. It must
be near the battery to serve t's main purpose.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jerry,
I would be interested in a Sunrise for $55,000. Last time I asked them,
they told me it would be $250,000 for a single unit. Would the $30,000
glider also be Sunrise?
Alex Karahalios
On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 04:21 PM, jerry dycus wrote:
So is there any interest? Is there a market for
100 of them? A market for gliders?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > They other option is to buy the tooling and
> > build it as an almost complete kit car using
> > remanufactured car parts where new is too expensive.
> > That could be done for about $30,000 were the buyer
> > bolts in the motor and batteries included or pays
> > someone to do it.
> > So is there any interest? Is there a market for
> > 100 of them? A market for gliders?
Is the $30k a 100 unit price?
Why didn't we think years ago about asking Solectria to
do this? (sound of hand slapping head).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a question and a comment(s) on this excellent thread;
Q: Powercheqs were to be redesigned and released for production toward
the end of this year (when I contacted them last spring). Has anyone
heard if they have stuck to this plan, or if they have resolved this
issue in a satisfactory way?
$: When I was designing stuff for the Navy, we strived to collect all of
the user interface stuff in one unit that was easily remotable, in order
to facilitate logical and ergonomic architecture of the control room. We
liked to call it the "Display and Control" module, or D&C. It made a lot
of sense, and I've applied the theory to many projects since with happy
results. Applied to a regulator, the display is the LED, and the control
is the adjustment/calibration, if any. The adj/cal is done infrequently,
so doesn't need to be within operator reach. The LED should be designed
to be easily remotable for effortless monitoring (state of recharge,
indication of damaged battery). Some people are remoting the regulators
for mechanical packaging necessity, and some are doing it to monitor the
LEDs. The latter group would be well served by a remoting the LED only.
Functionally, the regulator belongs next to the battery, the LED belongs
in the dashboard (laid out graphically in an image of the actual battery
arrangement), and the load, if any, belongs where it is easily heat sunk
(may or may not be next to the battery).
If you're doing fancy things like providing central test points to check
individual battery voltages (at rest) or individual charging, you are
still stuck with yards of extra wiring, but it does not have to
interfere with optimum regulation. Remember, range is the weak link of
virtually all road going Evs, so care and feeding of the batteries is
the overriding priority.
- GT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know the present condition of the vehicle, but it was quite nice
when I last saw it running. Mark knew what he was doing, plus he had
about the best help one could ask for at his disposal (the Portland EV
community).
Sitting for a year is not a big deal for Optimas, as long as they were
fully charged initially (and no parasitic drain).
40 Miles would be respectable real world range for 20 Optimas (buddy
pairs at 120V total). Still, don't put much salt in the published range
claims of Evs, it means very little without a lot of conditions
specified.
The only criticism I recall occurring to me was that a lot of the
battery mass was near the extremities, so high polar moment of inertia
(very many Evs are like this). Good on the highway, bad on the slalom.
Depends on your driving preferences. It's a pretty car that makes you
want to drive it though. Must be torture to have it and not be driving
it.
- GT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 4:48 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: EV Fiat Spider
>
>
> Hey Guys
>
> I am new to the list and have really enjoyed reading.
> I have been watching the EV's for sale and found this one for $4,000
>
http://cliquot.malamutes.com/fiat_page.htm.
I am a new EV'er and wanted to get your view on this car.
It has been sitting up for a year, so the 20 batteries are dead, right.
Any hope of a pulse mode battery device bringing them back to life ? And
the range stated of 40 miles seems low for 20 Optima's .,
Thanks
Trotman Simpson
Just a computer Geek interested in becoming an EV geek
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This might create a little conversation on the list:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/supercar
jaime
--
teslectric | > NetGain Technologies, LLC
@ Jaime Viehweg | >> Your place for battery powered drag racing
viehweg.net | >>> http://www.go-ev.com <- NEW STUFF!!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The first batch of stickers were not produced correctly. They were
suppose to have another lamination over the printing. I found this when
I was cleaning up my Blazer about one week after getting the sticker. I
was able to wipe the ink off. I contacted the DMV in Sacramento and
they corrected the problem. Stickers can be replaced at no charge. Use
the same form but indicate it is a replacement. The first time I did
this it was returned because I did not include the $8, but I worked with
them over the phone and received my new sticker at no charge.
If anyone continues to have questions about the procedure for getting or
replacing these stickers, please contact the DMV:
Douglas R. Wilson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(916) 657-9850
- Will
Will Beckett
Contact information (https://ecardfile.com/id/will_beckett)
Become a member or donate to the Electric Auto Association, donations
are tax deductible. http://eaaev.org/eaamembership.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 6:03 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: HOV stickers : Access OK
My stickers faded, mostly on the sides. After a little over two years,
the right side was almost faded away. I think it's mostly from car
washing.
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 11:21 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: HOV stickers : Access OK
It was pointed out to me that my HOV stickers have not
faded yet. "Faded yet!? These stickers fade?"
As it turns out over time the CA HOV sticker will fade.
Whether that is with the sunlight or because of strong
cleaners, I do not know.
I assume it is not that hard to get replacement CA HOV
stickers. Unless the CA DMV database has forgotten that
my conversion is rated "E", or the DMV has developed a conversion EV
prejudice.
Anyone else had their CA HOV stickers fade?
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Folks won't run #14, they'll run #18. The run from the front to
> the back will be 15 feet. Don't forget the fuse resistance and the
> connections.
>
> If they simply extend the existing module wires, all will work OK.
So, all Powercheq needed to do was lay this out in their installation
instructions. If you must mount them remotely from the battery, use
sufficiently large wires to avoid voltage drops.
>> Yes, they are independent. However, even with separate wires, when one
>> module turns on, it alters the voltages of the two batteries it is
>> connected to. This in turn affects two other modules (one up, and one
>> down the string) which are monitoring the same batteries.
> Yes. That is the point. It will only alter them enough to make them
> equal in voltage, however. If they are equal, there is not a problem,
> is there?
I'm not so sure. Say you have only 3 batteries, and 2 Powercheqs.
Powercheq A connects to battery #1 and #2. Powercheq B connects to
battery #2 and #3. If Powercheq A turns on, to draw current from #2 and
charge #1, Powercheq B can see #2's voltage suddenly drop, and so turn
on to draw current from #3 to charge #2. So B may be turning on/off in
unison with A, even when there was no voltage difference between #2 and
#3.
>> Plus, any balancing system has to cope with batteries that are being
>> loaded or charged independently of the balancing system. These loads
>> may not all be in series, and may not affect all batteries equally.
> Who wired your EV?
Some idiot; I guess that would be me :-)
> All loads are across the whole pack. Anyone that taps the pack well
> deserves all the headaches and toasted batteries they get.
My first few EVs all had series/parallel battery pack switching.
My Batt-Bridge taps the pack in the center; if the halves are out of
balance, it draws current from the higher of the two in such a way that
it tends to bring it back towards balance (though the current is only
~20ma).
Any system with independent chargers, or Rudman regulators puts
different loads on different batteries.
The Bonn charger that EVsNW sold splits the pack in half and charges
each half with a separate rectifier (voltage doubler configuration).
My Battery Balancer has only one wire to each inter-battery jumper. But
it only charges one battery at a time.
These situations are by no means uncommon, and there is nothing wrong
with using them; yet they would invalidate the Powercheq balacing
algorithm.
>> [Rudman regulators synchronizing] isn't necessarily a fatal flaw.
>> It can be if the wires are long and the external loads are heavy.
>> But it is not a problem with the stock 2amp loads and short wires.
> Oh yes it is. They don't work correctly unless the N+1 wires are
> ridiculously heavy and quite short. Who runs the stock loads?
I would guess that a majority of Rudman regulator customers use the
stock loads. Rich, care to comment?
>> When the Rudman regulator's turn-on/turn-off voltage hysteresis is
>> larger than the voltage drop caused by wiring and resistors, it
>> seems to work OK.
> They work, kind of. But they don't properly balance the batteries.
> Been there, done that.
I guess "properly" is the point of argument.
What I observed is that an EV without regulators had drastic voltage
differences between batteries. For instance, some at 13.5v when others
were at 16v during charging. After sitting 24 hours, you'd find voltages
from 12.8v to 13.1v (around a 30% difference in SOC).
When Rudman regulators were added, and used properly, after many charge
cycles the voltage differences were under 0.2v during charging, and
about 0.1v after sitting 24 hours. There was minor "synchronizing"
between regulators; they would blink in groups whose pattern would
change slowly over time.
On an EV with all the Rudman regulators mounted in one box with 4 ohm
external resistors and a single wire to each pair of boards, you could
see significant "synchronizing" between regulators, indicating they were
interacting. And, the voltage differences between batteries while
chargin was higher; around 0.5v. But after sitting overnight, the
voltage difference between batteries was still 0.1v. This would indicate
that despite the interaction between regulators, the voltages averaged
out in the end.
> The main reason to have the fuse is to prevent a fire in the wiring.
> If there is no harness, there is much less need for a fuse. It must
> be near the battery to serve the main purpose.
I agree; the main reason for a fuse is to prevent a fire. However, the
regulator itself is a more likely cause for a fire than the wiring. So
the fuse should protect both.
Designing these systems is a challenge. The designer has to consider all
the possible failure modes, and what will happen if they occur. (What if
this wire shorts to ground, or to a neighboring wire? What if this
MOSFET fails shorted?) Fail-safe design, fusing, or other shutdown
systems need to be devised so none of these scenarios leads to a
disaster.
Practical matters add further complications. Putting the electronics
right on the battery may be best, but it becomes inaccessible or gets
destroyed by the corrosive environment. Two wires from each
inter-battery connection might be better from a safety standpoint, but
impractical from a wiring standpoint. So, you have to work around the
single wire with other design changes.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> That can't be right. 3 amps x 72 hours = 216 amphours. Not what I'd call
> "bad".
sorry that's 3 amps for 24 houre 72 ah . I charged and discharged them a
few times before this test.
> > After a few cycles I pull 75 ah and with a 75 amp load I still see
> > 11 volts on them. Jon says they are $300 bats. I was just trying
> > them to please him but now I don't know what to think.
> Reading between the lines, I'd guess they are a gel cell, built for
> uninterruptible power supplies. They would be OK for brief, high current
> loads (like EVs), but would do much better with lower currents (bad
> Peukert exponent). They would be deep-cycle batteries, but life would be
> short (like a couple hundred cycles).
as these are about twice the size of yellow tops it looks like 50 cents a
lbs compared to $3 lbs YT 6 to 1 cost could I get 1200 cycles on YT's ?
> I have a set of old UPS batteries (Johnson Controls "Dynasty"
> UPS12-270FR). I found that there were substantial differences in their
> amphour capacities and internal resistance; it would be hard to make a
> balanced pack with them. All required extended equalization, as they had
> probably sat for years on a float voltage charger. I equalized them for
> several days at 15+ volts at under 0.5 amps; this considerably increased
> their capacity.
I have not come close to running them all the way down and was very
surprised at seeing over 11v while driving (100 amp load ) after taking 75
ah from them,.
> $40 each might be an OK deal, if you are allowed to test them and keep
> only the ones that perform. But I'd never pay over $200 for these
> batteries -- they are not built for EVs and would likely have quite a
> short life.
Now that I think about it they looked a lot like the bats in the bombabear
NEV I worked on a while back just bigger. 1/4 bolt's in the top :-( they
don't look like they would handle much amps . Only info on bat was the bolt
torque . I could really use one for your bat balancer's with the setup I'm
in now . IT looked like quite a project from the web site, bigger than any
thing I've done yet, Maybe when the tango comes out with it I can buy one
from them . In the mean time I'll use the manual balancer (10 pole switch)
and do it by hand . > -- On this line I was thinking the other day about a
DC/DC converter with 10 (or more) outputs and use fets to engage the coils
or not , use opto isolators and op amps to find the low bat and turn that
battery's fet on . could do away with the relays maybe? run the prim
winding form the whole pack . Might even use a old computer supply for
primary side and wind my own coil with as many outputs as I need . This is
starting to sound like a bigger project that the relay board.
Steve Clunn
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: EV Decals/Graphics
> Marvin wrote:
> >My EVcort is bare. No-one even notices it's electric.
> >
> >Does anyone know where to get some kind of non-cheesy "declarative
> >art/graphics" to plaster the car with?
>
>
> How about some chrome emblems that simply say "ELECTRIC"? Check out:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/signs.html
>
> They are made from plastic with a chrome like finish and look very
> OEM. These aren't decals but 3D logos similar to the factory emblems on
> most cars. They have been known to confuse folks into thinking
conversions
> were actually factory built.
>
> I have been selling them for about two years now. Just a few a month but
> it pays for my other EV webpage stuff like the EV Album and the EV Tradin'
> Post.
That sounds like a good enough reason to buy one , now I know what I want
for Xmass /// 3 weeks of bedroom remodeling= on EV emblem of xmass......
maybe even 2 ?
Steve Clunn
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most of these new electronic meters are programmable. They can "spin"
backwards, but this feature can be easily turned off (or set so that power
flow in or out both cause the meter to spin forwards!!)
FYI,
I'm served by Southern California Edison and I have
TOU-EV1 service on a dedicated meter. I installed it
to directly serve it's own 100 amp service panel,
allowing me to charge up to 3 EVs at 6+ kW. I have:
1-Avcon conductive box (permitted, for Ranger EV)
1-SPI inductive charging (permitted, for my RAV4)
1-240 vac receptacle (no permit, 20 amps)
I also have a 30 amp/240 vac outlet in the garage,
served by the domestic service (as a back-up).
Edison gave me no trouble, except that they were
initially confused and stuck a domestic (rather than
time of use) meter in the EV socket. My city was
originally reluctant to grant me a new service panel
(first permit) on the grounds that I might use the
power for an illegal garage conversion rental unit. (?!)
Edison's original TOU-EV1 rates were very favorable,
but they went up with all the other rates 1.5 yrs ago.
The off peak rates are $0.08/kWh year round, and
$0.16 or $0.33/kWh on peak (winter/summer).
**NOT** $0.04/kWh off peak!!
As for PV/net metering/TOU/EV issues,
every SCE customer in every rate category is eligible
for [solar] net metering. But you must apply and have
an approved solar installation. Contact Laura Rudison
in SCE net metering for any questions 626 302 9680.
I currently have a 2.3 kW solar array on my home
(domestic service). I opted for the TOU domestic rate
schedule once I had solar net metering. They set the
electronic meter (a Siemens unit) to record forward
and backward power flow, in on and off peak hours.
Believe me, they can (and will) program the meter
on any service for reverse power flow, all you need to
do is have an approval for Net Metering. FYI, I opted
to put the PV/net metering on domestic/TOU service
because that rate plan has the most favorable rates
for solar applications: the "sell" hours are largely on
peak (high value), the "buy" hours are largely off peak
(low value). Result: maximum economic "leverage".
Edison's standard domestic rates are progressive,
starting at $0.13 and sliding up to $0.26/kWh with
increasing usage. TOU domestic rates are ~$0.10
off peak and $0.18 to $0.52/kWh on peak (winter/
summer). I think $0.52/kWh might be the highest
domestic tariff in the developed world...
/wk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Christopher and All,
--- Christopher Meier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > They other option is to buy the tooling
> and
> > > build it as an almost complete kit car using
> > > remanufactured car parts where new is too
> expensive.
> > > That could be done for about $30,000 were the
> buyer
> > > bolts in the motor and batteries included or
> pays
> > > someone to do it.
> > > So is there any interest? Is there a
> market for
> > > 100 of them? A market for gliders?
>
> Is the $30k a 100 unit price?
Yes, it would take that amount to pay the
start-up costs.
>
> Why didn't we think years ago about asking Solectria
> to
> do this? (sound of hand slapping head).
>
I've been asking about this for years. I got
tired of waiting for someone else to do it so I
called.
They really want someone to do this, just not
Selectria.
Jerry Dycus
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Alex and All,
--- Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Jerry,
>
> I would be interested in a Sunrise for $55,000. Last
Well that's 1, now all we need is 99 more!!!
Selectria wants to be sure that there is a market,
cash before they make any deal with anyone.
> time I asked them,
> they told me it would be $250,000 for a single unit.
For a 1-off that would be the right price for
them. But they are a research company not set up for
producing whole EV's. They want to stick to power
electronics, research that they do well.
Price for 50,000/ yr would come down to about
$22-27k.
They have always wanted someone else to build it.
> Would the $30,000
> glider also be Sunrise?
$30,000 would be for an almost completed kit. A
legal loophole to get it into production bypassing Fed
and liability issues.
A glider would be without the EV drive, batts,
ect. Cost ?
Lee, they want others to make the proposal as
they are busy with other work.
This looks like the best bet for a great EV being
put into production if there are 100 orders. Let's
hope there are.
Anyone else want one? Contact me.
Jerry Dycus
>
> Alex Karahalios
>
> On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 04:21 PM, jerry
> dycus wrote:
>
> > So is there any interest? Is there a market
> for
> > 100 of them? A market for gliders?
>
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where can I see this "sunrise"
First let me say that I can understand there price (ask a big bis to do
anything will cost) . I haven't seen the car but as always I'm thinking what
a nice conversion one could make for $55k . It might even be hard to spend
that much using regular parts (could throw in a solar paneled garage).
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:00 AM
Subject: Re: Selectria Sunrise? the Perfect High-Dollar EV could be built.
> Hi Alex and All,
> --- Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi Jerry,
> >
> > I would be interested in a Sunrise for $55,000. Last
>
> Well that's 1, now all we need is 99 more!!!
> Selectria wants to be sure that there is a market,
> cash before they make any deal with anyone.
> > time I asked them,
> > they told me it would be $250,000 for a single unit.
>
> For a 1-off that would be the right price for
> them. But they are a research company not set up for
> producing whole EV's. They want to stick to power
> electronics, research that they do well.
> Price for 50,000/ yr would come down to about
> $22-27k.
> They have always wanted someone else to build it.
>
> > Would the $30,000
> > glider also be Sunrise?
>
> $30,000 would be for an almost completed kit. A
> legal loophole to get it into production bypassing Fed
> and liability issues.
> A glider would be without the EV drive, batts,
> ect. Cost ?
> Lee, they want others to make the proposal as
> they are busy with other work.
> This looks like the best bet for a great EV being
> put into production if there are 100 orders. Let's
> hope there are.
> Anyone else want one? Contact me.
>
> Jerry Dycus
> >
> > Alex Karahalios
> >
> > On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 04:21 PM, jerry
> > dycus wrote:
> >
> > > So is there any interest? Is there a market
> > for
> > > 100 of them? A market for gliders?
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A short time ago we were discussing adapter plates and it was pointed
out that all(?) air cooled VW & Porsches shared the same bolt pattern
(with some differences in clutches) but the water cooled VWs use a
different bolt pattern.
My new question is do all of the water cooled VWs have the same bolt
pattern and do the water cooled Porsches have the same one? I know the
early 924's used VW engines and I would guess that the 944s and 924S'
probably share this same bolt pattern.
I am specifically interested in the 924S and the VW rabbit (diesel).
Thanks, Pete.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
cox wrote:
> Hey Guys
>
> I am a new EV'er and wanted to get your view on this car.
I know both Mark an Lynn who built this car...very nice people! I am also more than
familiar with the car, too, since I was their EV mentor of sorts on the project...spent
many a day at their home's garage in Lake Oswego (Portland area).
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> So John, are you keeping track of how many people you have
> influenced to do their own conversions?
Since Michael had brought this up before...this is an example of what happens when EV
newbies see and ride in Blue Meanie, and if you look at the pride of assembly, layout,
and
execution, you can tell where they got many of their ideas. The beautifully made metal
work, is from none other than 'Frank the Metal God'...I put the couple together with
Frank, and even over-saw the making of their pieces on several late night sessions with
FTMG. Many of the EV component choices were routed through me, and of special note, the
car even has a famous 8 inch ADC motor, as it came from none other than 'John Bryan's
Ghia' to make room for his s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d ADC 1227 high torque 8 incher.
>From Bill Dube':
>I should add that the controller, motor, adapter plate, DC-DC
>converter, etc, are worth more than the asking price for the entire car. It
>appears to be a nice conversion that just needs a few finishing touches in
>the charging department.
Ah yes, another EVer who got Blue Meanied! I agree with Bill completely, this car at
$4000
is a steal! To make it even sweeter, as I've already said, these are very nice folks to
deal with as well. The car is not absolutely cherry, and some of the paint and body
work
around the hood area, if I recall correctly, needs work...but, for an older car, it
should
still be considered to be in very good condition!
>From George Tylinski:
>Mark knew what he was doing, plus he had
>about the best help one could ask for at his disposal (the Portland EV
>community).
Thanks for this, George. I am very proud of the work I see coming from the EV community
here in Portland. Many, I'm sure, have seen Marko Mongillo's beautiful Fiat 600 'Fiamp'
(it's at the Mike Chancey's EV Photo Album). Marko's car, is another example of Blue
Meanie exposure, and Marko's craftsmanship is outstanding. A few years ago, I put he
and
'Frank the Metal God' together and Marko now works with Frank at the metal shop.
Marko's
car became another EV for the Mark and Lynn to emulate.
By the way, Marko's Fiamp was one of the three original EVs to get Optima group 31
batteries through me, as prototypes. 16 of the pre-production group 31 batteries ended
up
in 'Baby Blue' 192V, my T-Rex powered '67 Datsun minitruck (now owned by EV friend John
Tuss, 10 of them went to Marko for his Fiamp, and the rest went to Canadian EVer Randy
Holmquist. Marko is one of the first to now have in his possession, a fresh set of the
brand-spank'n new Optima group 31's.
Sidebar.....We are going to have a little EV dinner here in Portland, probably Tuesday
night (tomorrow), so anyone in the Portland metro area who would like to join us and
check
out the new Optimas, is welcome to drive their EV or hybrid and meet with us...details
later today.
>From Steve Clunn:
>Have you driven it yet (or any EV) ? how
>far do you have to drive? I think I'd set it up for 13 bat at 156v and have
>a fast sports car if less that 30 miles is your needs .
Yes, I've driven it, and yes, it drives nice, and yes, it would be killer at 156V,
especially if the DCP600 was upgraded to a 1200 model!
See Ya.....John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Sunday, EV list friend Lawrence Rhodes arrived in Portland, as he had left late
Saturday
night for his 10 hour drive up north to take care of some personal business in my town.
Not only did he graciously procure for me, ten Hubbell brand, L6-30 flange mount
recessed
male twist lock connectors for the amazing price of $1 each (they list for $37 each),
he
delivered them personally to my door step, no freight charges! We have both our love of
EVs and love of music in common, so it was a fun day with him.
I'll leave it up to Lawrence to give his side of the story, but let it suffice to say
that
he now knows just how big that EV grin can get! We had a little high-amp'n tire spin'n
fun, interspersed with hard-hitting tunes that ranged from Wayland home grown (Smoke'n
Mike Wayland) 'GrooveYard funk' to 'Wagner symphonic'.
It was once again, as has happened so many times since '94, fun to put a face with a
name
from the list.
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV Bug (project)
This is too far for me to take on but I thought you would like to see it
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1874466903
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Dec 2002 at 9:58, 1sclunn wrote:
> Where can I see this "sunrise"
Not a lot of detail, but here's a plain vanilla photo:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sunrise_ev/
No idea what this group is all about; it has all of 2 members. The archives
(with exactly one message) are closed and membership restricted. Maybe it's
one of Bruce Parmentier's specialty EV groups. Or did you start this one,
Jerry?
Simililar pic here with some interesting comments:
http://www.solectria.com/products/accomp.html
The Sunrise has made over 300 miles on a charge (stripped down to the barest
minimum mass). That was in a Tour de Sol (around 1996, I think; I could
look it up but don't want to take time right now). A prototype also drove
from New York to Boston on a single charge, with James Worden behind the
wheel, and still had energy left over. That was with a NiMH battery
(probably hand-selected modules too). But I have no doubt that it could
easily achieve a usable range of 100 miles with nicads.
It's also no minicar. The Sunrise is about the size of a Ford Taurus, and
has plenty of room for 4 adults. That's probably a plus for most Americans,
though I personally prefer small hatchbacks.
The Sunrise is a remarkable EV, in many ways a much more sophisticated
design than the EV-1. It shows what can be done when smart engineers who
understand electric vehicle design are given an appropriate environment and
sufficient resources. I would love to see it put into production, and the
thought of one in my driveway just about makes my eyes drool.
A $55k price brings it closer, but -- well, I won't say no, but I can't say
yes. I work for a nonprofit organization, and $55k is a lot of paychecks.
I may have to wait for the second round when the price drops to $35k -- if
it ever does.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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