EV Digest 2468
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Less green for more green
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Golf Cart forsale on Ebay (48V)
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Golf Cart forsale on Ebay (48V) MOTOR
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Need best rpm for motorcycle+sidecar EV
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Grand Banks EV
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: VW porsche engine tranny question
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Too good to be true. A water fuel cell?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Too good to be true. A water fuel cell?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: VW porsche engine tranny question
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Too good to be true. A water fuel cell?
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Need best rpm for motorcycle+sidecar EV
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Selectria Sunrise? and stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Golf Cart forsale on Ebay (48V) MOTOR Warning!
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Too good to be true. A water fuel cell?
by Neil Wicai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Too good to be true. A water fuel cell?
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Golf Cart forsale on Ebay (48V) MOTOR Warning!
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Too good to be true. A water fuel cell?
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Too good to be true. A water fuel cell?
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Wasn't it the Honda Insight ads that said you never need to
plug it in?
I just saw a Toyota Prius TV ad that stated, 'that you never
need to plug in' ...
At least they used the right words to call the Prius a
gasoline-electric hybrid, and did not call it an Electric
car (I see way too many media pieces that call hybrids, an
Electric car. This just leads to more public confusion.).
But why having I seen a RAV4 EV tv ad?
It has much more 'green' to tout than an EV wannabe:
You never have to 'tune it up', change the oil, clean the
Valdez effect off the driveway, keep up with the rising
fuel costs, get smog it, etc.
But the fast paced TV ad has you hopping and bopping with the
background music, with the Prius quickly turning tight turns,
and ends with the statement, 'more green for less green'.
Referencing to a end of the year sale, meaning less green
US dollars for less pollution. But they did not mention the
hybrids cost a little more than a comparable ICE. Truth be
told, it really is 'less green for more green' (when
compared to an EV). But no one compares to an EV on the TV.
...
I am just bent out of shape because anything that uses fuel
gets marketed and (full-size) EVs don't.
I have a folder that is chocked full of fcv newswires,
another that parades hybrids, but I have scour the net to
get a handful of EV items (most of those are sub-highway
vehicles). Full-size EVs are not marketed (compared to ICE).
And I can see it coming. Toyota will say to CARB ...
we stopped because no one wants them. :-(
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1980204610
Not affiliated, just FYI.
Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That would be the MOTOR, not the cart.
On Tue, 2002-12-10 at 03:25, Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1980204610
>
> Not affiliated, just FYI.
>
> Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[Please send your comments directly as he is not on the
EV List]
-
Subject: advanced dc rpm's
From: "terry wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: - Sun, Dec 8 2002 1:01:32 PM0800
I need to do is figure the best rpm for the 6.5" ADV motor
before I purchase the gears for my sidecar project
(a motorcycle with 72 VDC of batteries in a side car).
The KTA catalog says that the Advanced DC series motors
should be limited to 6500 rpm. The my driving will be at 45
mph, with the gear ratio I plan on that would be about 5200
rpm. The motor and controller will use the wind for
cooling.
-
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Chad-
If it has engines, then it is a hybrid. There are a few ev boat lists
which might be able to offer some help here and there are some ev and
non-ev boat people on the list here. I am one, although others have more
ev boat experience. You could try eboat.org as a starting place. I would
love to hear more about your project, but I am not sure this is the best
forum (other than making contacts).
Seth
Chad Peddy wrote:
>
> Hi:
>
> I own a 1965 36' Grand Banks that I want to convert to electric/hybrid.
> Replacing the 1965 engines with multiple small generators would clean-up the
> engine room and 36 feet of boat has ample room for batteries. In removing
> 2000 lbs of engine will balance out with the weight of the generators.
>
> The Grand Banks 36 is not affected by weight changes by 4 tons of batteries.
>
> My vision is running in the harbor under electric power and running for
> hours in silence. Starting the generators to charge the batteries and
> stopping them when returning to harbor. It will be the first (to my
> knowledge) of an electric Grand Banks.
> A twin screw is ideal for conversion because no "waste" of energy is
> required in docking as is needed with a single screw.
>
> It currently has two 1965 120 hp Ford Lemans Diesels.
> Torque: 300 lbs
> Rotation CCW
> Weight 1000 lbs
> 4 blade 18" dia propellers
>
> The cruising RPM on the Engines is 1650, the transmission set is as fallows
> Port Ratio: 2.1:1
> Starboard Ratio: 1.91:1 and reversing
> contra-rotating propellers is necessary for twin screws.
>
> If anyone is in the SF Bay area, I will gladly take you on a cruise.
> Partner wanted.
> Chad
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was really impressed with Johns Meanie. It was by far the best built EV I
have ever been in. It has impressive acceleration besting the EV1 easily.
It is put together so well you think it was factory built. In fact it is
bettere that Factory. John added a console from a Subaru and the seats and
it all looks stock. The battery tray and electric windows are very nice.
We did have one problem comming around a corner in fourth gear he punched it
and blew a fuse. The car was only doing 30 mph and it coasted on the flat
for a half mile to his house down the driveway and into the garage with no
power. Very impressive. The problem was obvious. It was shown by the
carbon black of a fuse meltdown. John took off the cover and I recommended
vacuuming out the fuse holder. John agreed and went for the vac. I noticed
something strange on the contacts. It was like Starwars. Wow where's my
acid when I need it. This was better that a Lava Lamp. A beautiful gold
fizzy glow moved across the metal surfaces of the connector. I put my face
right in and told John he had to see this. It moved back and forth across
the connector and as John came over to vac the area he said "Oh no we don't
want that". I pulled my face away and as I did so little flames started to
come out of the affected area and John stuck in the hose just in time to
remove the carbon. Turns out that the effect is called a carbon bridge. As
the carbon is conductive the little particles were arcing producing a
beautiful but dangerous effect. It could have melted the case and ruined
Johns beautiful detailing in formica. Emergency over. It was time for me
to leave and it was very inspiring to ride in such a functional vehicle.
The only downside for me is the limited range. That would be solved with
NiZn. A little less performance but it would be better that the
MeanGreenLeadMachine. It is truly a slug. There has got to be a compromise
that allows for Good Range and Good Performance. I am invisioning a small
flywheel battery hooked to a Zinc Air module. Well that's all. After
seeing Johns vehicles I can only hope to get something half as functional as
Blue Meanie. John aught to be designing for Solectria. Then they could
build $10K Geo Metros. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 5:01 AM
Subject: Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
> Hello to all,
>
> OK, here's the gig....I haven't engaged in a good old fashioned Lee Hart
rebuttal in a
> long time, and I know Lee's really missed the old days of Wayland vs Hart,
so what the
> heck, here goes!
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > To perform really well as an EV, the vehicle really needs to be designed
> > from the ground up to be an EV.
>
> Oh come on, Lee! 'Needs' to be?
>
> First, let's determine what 'perform' means. To get the ultimate in range
per charge
> 'performance'...maybe. If you only consider range per charge as the
primary performance
> parameter, well, I guess we could all be driving CommutaCars stuffed with
a gazzilion
> oozing, acid-spitting golf car batteries.
>
> To get the ultimate in customer acceptance type of 'performance', no way!
I'm talking
> 'quality of appearance performance' ....I'm talking about a car that has
the look and feel
> of a high quality factory car, like a Honda, a Toyota, etc. That means
body panels that
> fit with tidy seams that don't waver and vary, that means body panel
materials that don't
> have sand marks, grooves, wavy and warped expanses, or god forbid, a
Coleman ice cooler
> texture!
>
> To get the ultimate in acceleration 'performance', again, it most
certainly does not have
> to be a 'ground up' EV. We have way too many examples of killer EV
acceleration from
> converted gas cars to demonstrate this.
>
> To get the ultimate in handling 'performance', it also, most certainly
does not have to
> be a 'ground up' EV. We have way too many examples of killer EV handling
performance from
> converted gas cars to demonstrate this. The converted '65 Mustang I helped
design and
> build back in '95, had a perfect 50/50 weight distribution and a very low
CG...it would
> toast most any hopped up gasser Mustang in a slalom contest. I rode in a
lowered,
> radically tricked out Fiesta EV with Optima's stuffed way low in the body
cavities and a
> powerful EV power train... amazing, pull the skin off your cheeks
cornering!
>
> >From Steve:
>
> >Where can I see this "sunrise" First let me say that I can understand
there price (ask a
> >big bis to do anything will cost) . I haven't seen the car but as always
I'm thinking what
> >a nice conversion one could make for $55k
>
> For a long time, I've held my breath every time someone, including Lee,
raves about the
> Solectria Sunrise, all because it ran so far on a charge using hand
selected,
> cherry-picked, hand built NiMH Ovonics' best batteries. It's really
interesting, that I
> started to write this rebuttal post yesterday, Sunday, including comments
about the
> Sunrise,
> and as I am finishing it up today, Monday, the whole Sunrise salivation
thing has once again,
> popped up, right on cue for this.
>
> >From Jerry Dycuss:
>
> >Of all the EV's built the Sunrise seems to be the best one if it can be
put into
> >production.
>
> What on earth, makes it 'the best'? Other than an impressive range per
charge, and that's
> only because of it's enormous ahr capacity from 'unobtantium' Ovonics
hand-selected
> batteries, this car does not excel at 'anything'...in fact, it is inferior
to even
> marginal vehicles.
>
> I saw the Sunrise in person, when it was just a mold sitting upside down
in the backyard
> of the Solectria brick building years ago when I was back east. I saw it
again at EVS 14
> back in '97 in Orlando...sat in it, checked it out from top to bottom, and
drove it. Even
> back then, Lee was going on about this 'car'. Gotta tell ya folks....it
looks like a 5
> year old built this! It had a poor quality (at best) composite body that
makes a
> Corrvette's wavy fiberglass panels look straight. The interior can't save
it, either...home-made
> looking is an understatement! Their AC drive system is about as wimpy as
they come, and
> the transmitted
> noise inside the car made you think you were driving a thrashing machine.
Driving it was a
> depressing experience, with the word 'acceleration' seemingly unsuitable
to use as a term.
>
> Some may remember, that years ago on this very EV discussion list,
Solectria's Karl Tiedemann
> was boasting about their products' 0-50 performance in 'under 12
seconds'...it almost
> went unchallenged, and again, the Solectria droolers were oohing and
ahhing over this. I
> exposed what 0-50 in approx. 12 seconds really meant, when I wrote about
the HUGE
> difference in a 0-50 time as opposed to a 0-60 time. In the end, I showed
how Solectria
> was trying to put a positive spin on what was really a horrible 0-60 time,
by using the
> smoke and mirrors tactic of using the lesser 0-50 stats instead, hoping
that the
> automotive-challenged would buy it...many in fact, did. Solectria was
bragging about
> designing and building an EV that took 'longer' to wheez its way up to 60
mph than a
> diesel VW bus! To his credit, Karl did come back to the list and admit he
was in over his
> head on attempting to discuss the topic of typical car performance 0-60
time info, and
> stated thay he had no idea how different a 0-50 time was from a 0-60 time.
>
> >From David Roden:
>
> >The Sunrise is a remarkable EV, in many ways a much more sophisticated
> >design than the EV-1.
>
> (finger in mouth, gaggg) Better than an EV-1? Somebody call a doctor, I'm
getting sick!
> OK, I agree, it 'will be' ...after the EV-1's get crushed!
>
> Let's see...Sunrise, 0-60 in an agonizing 17 seconds...EV-1, 0-60 in 7.6
seconds (Road &
> track tested).
> Sunrise, wavy, ill-fitting body panels...EV-1, the look, fit, and feel
of a quality import.
> Sunrise, creaking body, tacky interior...EV-1, solid body, nicely
assembled interior.
>
> When I hear people put this insanely over-priced, less than kit car
quality, funny
> looking, miserable accelerating, poor handling vehicle up on a pedestal, I
get nauseous.
> Give me (or anyone else who knows cars) the same pack of precious,
hand-picked, large
> capacity NiMH Ovonics batteries, and the insane dollar budget, and I'll
> easily match this car's range performance, but I'll also do it with a car
that has pride
> and quality poured into it, a car that can pin you in the seat with real
acceleration, a
> car that has real cornering ability, etc.
>
> >It shows what can be done when smart engineers who
> >understand electric vehicle design are given an appropriate environment
and
> >sufficient resources.
>
> The Sunrise for me, is the ultimate example of what can happen when
'engineers' go
> unchecked by 'normal' people. Sunrise, brought to you by the same 'smart
engineers' who
> brought us the $40k Geo Metro!!! Yup, you just have to use 'smart
engineers who understand
> electric vehicle design' to come up with a Geo Metro that has truly awful
acceleration, a
> severely limited top speed, mediocre hill pulling ability,
> and has the same range as a backyard, $8k DC powered EV conversion, all
for just $40k!!
>
> Though I am really grateful for the downtown EV Charging station Portland
General Electric
> (PGE) sponsors and provides free charging juice for, it's also a
never-ending source of
> embarrassment for me and may other EVers. Proudly displayed and attached
onto each
> face of the station, is a plastic encased 'EV Statement' showing an
uninspired,
> bland-looking Solectria Force (one of those brilliant $40k+ Metro
conversions) with a
> caption that states how 'today's modern EVs can go as fast as 65 mph!'. As
I read the
> charger's mantra and am plugging in my 30 year old Datsun conversion that
can bury its 100
> mph speedo and melt the tires at will, I get sick.
>
> >From Lee Hart:
>
> > Trying to convert an ICE car into an EV
> > is always challenging. The smaller the car, the worse the problems get.
>
> Yes, these are correct statements...but, trying to design, build, and
properly execute a
> ground-up EV into a real 'car' that has the look, finish, feel, and
performance (in all
> senses of the
> word) is even more challenging!
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IIRC the early 2.0 924 engine is not a VW, it is an Audi. But I don't
know if it mates to a VW or not.
4 cylinder inline transverse mounted watercooled VW engines mostly have
the same bolt pattern. But even some golf II transmissions won't fit
golf I/rabbit engines.
The early 924 is Audi 2.0 based engine, the later 924S is a de-flared
944 with different wheels and the base Porsche 2.5 liter engine with its
rather difficult dual counter rotating balance shaft and water pump
arrangement placed too close to the radiator. At least the front half of
the engine and most rotating and oscillating parts are different. Never
done a clutch on either, though.
But one saving grace. The rabbit (or golf at least with the 020
transmission) bellhousing unbolts from the rest of the transmission. I
have done this to make dynamometer adaptors. It has a flat face, so an
adaptor should be straightforward. A $12 haynes manual should have lots
of pictures and text describing this, and even AutoZone and Pep Boys
carry them.
Seth
Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
>
> >My new question is do all of the water cooled VWs have the same bolt
> >pattern and do the water cooled Porsches have the same one? I know the
> >early 924's used VW engines and I would guess that the 944s and 924S'
> >probably share this same bolt pattern.
> >
> >I am specifically interested in the 924S and the VW rabbit (diesel).
>
> FWIW I think I just found the answer to half of my question. I found a
> site that says that all of the VW watercooled inline 4 engines use the
> same bolt pattern and the same accessory mounts.
>
> So if they didn't change the bolt pattern between the early 924 and the
> later 924S, it should work for me.
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news071202-01
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How odd. It's dated 7 December. I would have expected a date of 1 April on
a piece like this -- especially in EVWorld.
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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> But one saving grace. The rabbit (or golf at least with the 020
> transmission) bellhousing unbolts from the rest of the transmission. I
> have done this to make dynamometer adaptors.
Cool, thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2002-12-10 at 05:42, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news071202-01
You have to take most stuff you read on EV World with a hefty grain of
salt, especially anything dealing with over-unity.
EV World tends to be extremely open minded, perhaps a bit too open
minded.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It would be better to gear it for about 4,000 rpm at 45 mph. 5,000 rpm
is over the knee of the efficiency curve.
On 72V 4,000 rpm gives you almost 3 times as much torque as 5,000 rpm
(15ft-lbs vs 6). If you calculate the available HP, this motor running
on 72V will make 11.4hp at 4,000 rpm and only 5.5hp at 5,000 (over twice
as much).
You might not need 11.5hp to go 45mph, but it will take longer to
accelerate to 45mph when geared for 5,000 rpm that it will geared for
4,000 rpm. Finally it will use less power (better effeciency) if you
gear it for 4,000.
Besides, if you gear it for 4,000 rpm, you might be able to go 50-55 mph
under the right circumstances.
FWIW the aerodynamics of motorcycles suck, adding a sidecar only makes
this worse. A motorcycle with sidecar probably has as much or more
aerodynamic drag as a small car (definitely more than some small cars
like the Honda Insight).
It's also hard to get low rolling resistance tires for motorcycles, so
your rolling resistance will be as much or more as a small car (with LRR
tires) even though the weight is less.
I'm not discouraging the idea, it sounds neat, just pointing out some
factors to keep in mind.
On Tue, 2002-12-10 at 04:55, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> [Please send your comments directly as he is not on the
> EV List]
>
>
> -
> Subject: advanced dc rpm's
> From: "terry wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: - Sun, Dec 8 2002 1:01:32 PM0800
>
> I need to do is figure the best rpm for the 6.5" ADV motor
> before I purchase the gears for my sidecar project
> (a motorcycle with 72 VDC of batteries in a side car).
>
> The KTA catalog says that the Advanced DC series motors
> should be limited to 6500 rpm. The my driving will be at 45
> mph, with the gear ratio I plan on that would be about 5200
> rpm. The motor and controller will use the wind for
> cooling.
> -
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
Me, too! Thanks for the Reality Check, John, let me chime in on this one,
too. Well, Nice to see Steve has seen the "Wayland Light" Or what 1200 amps@
150 volts can do to lift your spirits! Thanks for sharing, Steve, with us
your adventures! Just was able to get on, after service provider problems,
this mid morning. great posts here today on the diversity of EV's Thanks for
the story of Montana, JB. I was impressed how nice folks are out there in my
driving through to Woodburn, PDX, last summer. Makes ya wanna go out and
hunt down a clean, streight Ghia as a new EV project.
What we need and have going here, is a newer wave of "Factory" Finished
EV's showing up. The Meanie, The Ghia and otheres that folks pay you the
supreme compliment" Oh it's not from the factory, ya MADE it yourself?" Not
a rolling science project look. One size doesn't fit all, especially with
EV's. They are a very personal thing, built around what the owner, operator
needs and want,. as well as showing the way to folks that don't believe that
EV's work, much less exist.
Not an easy sell, as yet. Gas is so cheap, nowadaze, people just gas up,
cheap, now. as it's more plentiful than clean water. I could do all my
drivin' in my shiny 94 Sentra, for say, 10-15 bux worth of gas, a minor
expense, in the scheme of life. But pumping more crap into the very air I
breathe, and yu do, too. Think about it, my argument to folks; Go streight
up 4 miles; Ya need a oxygen mask to survive. THAT'S how thin the atmosphere
is, that we NEED to live on. Isn't that scary? all that stuff, from cars
trux and all is dumping into this. Think of a coat of paint on a basketball,
THAT'S our survival breathable stuff. Correct me if my argument facts are
way off. Ask people if they have been in an airplane lately? And didyu
notice, as the plane climbed out, how crappy the air BELOW the plane looked,
like New England Clam Chowder? How deliciously beautiful the So BLUE sky
looked above the plane. That you could almost taste it? How it's purity is
almost a religious experiance? Some of my curbside EV plugging sales pitch.
I'm talking about a jet of the sort that flys across country; Jet Blue,
United, while there is still time, Pam AM, Branff and all those guyz. EVen
on Amtrak, it gets pretty high in the mountains out West. Shameless Plug for
Amtrak, I DO work there. Another see it while ya can. Seems like EVerybody
in the transport Biz is having hard times. Except the RV industry, they are
having a ball, biz is 'way up. But 10 bux a gallon gas could fix that. Don't
see why Whinnebagal ,and thise big vehicle guyz arent out with a hybrid
Whinne, diseasel, electric, 28 MPG or so, streamlined body. But I would
guess it's like Vanderbilt said" If ya hafta worry about how much it costs
you have no business owning one" when somebody asked him how much his boat,
Yacht, cost.
Back to the topic. Wonder if Steve Clunn and Jerry Dicus have hooked up
yet? Both from florida, maybe close in? Lotsa good ideas from these guyz.
Jerry? Any progress on the Lumbergini? Update us a bit. Yur on the right
trak, in affordable light EV's and not gunna repeat Corbin's mistakes in the
Sparrow project. I know yur working on that so you can offer a vehicle thst
the new owner is'nt in your R and D dept, when they drive out of the
showroom.
Steve. One or two cars at a time Great story, keep them coming, for sure!
Love that go-out-and DO- it spirit. Florida is ideal EV country. Flat, WAY
to hot for my tastes, batteries like that, though. Alot of retired folks
that arent in a hurry.Yada yada yada, ideal territory, as bob Beaumont felt
in Citicar daze, in Sebring, fla.30 some years ago.
Maybe Fla would be the home of a budding EV industry? So. Cal, too?
EV's were made in CT100 years ago, in Hartford, EVen. Not holding my breath,
here.
Seeya
Bob
Original Message -----
From: 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I wrote this before reading John's post . see how easy it is to be fooled
> by a web site. Thanks for the inside info John .From what you say I see
why
> they have given up.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Selectria Sunrise? and stuff
>
>
> > I went to the site http://www.solectria.com/products/accomp.html and
read
> > there stuff and I hate to say it but they made a lot of sense. They
have
> > made a lot of fine ev's and now feel ( my gut feeling) that putting a
fine
> > vehicle out with bats that will give the mileage people say they need
will
> > not be enough . To bad when clear heads don't see any hope. There are
> > going to have to be a lot more conversions on the road before any
company
> > takes a chance I think. I though you ( Jerry) were going to start some
> > little ev car comp? They sound like they would sell the parts to you .
> To
> > me having a built from the ground up ev just means not having to deal
with
> > the "pay that for an used car" mind set . You have a lot of work
already
> > done when you used car ,You could get a nice Porsche 911 or 914 body 1
to
> 5
> > k and put all that AC drive in there and have about the same thing .
Look
> > how slow the EValbum is growing , one car a month>? I got to say its
the
> > strangest thing I've ever experienced . Like if somebody made one of
> those
> > over unity generators that worked and then nobody wanted them because
they
> > took 5 years to pay for them self's . "People" we have no idea how
little
> > they care . " I just wouldn't be happy with out ........." and so they
> keep
> > driving there gas burners and won't even try an EV till it can do what
> there
> > gas car can and cost less that $20k . I am doing a conversion for a
guy
> > now and Saturday his friend came buy to see it . This is a light car
> with13
> > bat 156v with DCP 1200 controller . I have never rode in any thing
like
> > this and was just finishing up wiring the controller when he came. So we
> > took the first ride together him working the go pedal (by hand ) and me
> > steering . This thing ran like a bat out of hell . If you have never
> > experienced 156v 1200 amps you are in for a thrill . Of course I've
been
> > living in the past with 120v 400 amp Curtis with over 3000 lbs cars .
> When
> > I got out I was not the same person I was before . My getting from point
a
> > to point b has been replaced with " I got to have me one of these even
if
> it
> > only goes 20 miles on a charge" I know that people all say they want
the
> > distance and 50 miles is the least they'll take . I am now seeing what
> they
> > really get excited about is that neck snapping pickup . This guy has a
> 911
> > with a blown motor and after that little ride around the block he was
> > jumping around like a wild monkey ( I was to ) now if it had been a 20
> golf
> > cart with 400amp Curtis he would not have been imprested ( we drove the
ev
> > Mazda before the test riding in his friends car ) . Here is a funny
> though
> > EV's were replaced by gas cars as they were faster now 100 years later
> EV's
> > come back and replace the gas cars because they are faster (I haven't
had
> a
> > lot of experance with fast cars so I'm not expert).
> > Well as we were racing around the neighbor hood I started to smell
> > something and we pull over and the 9 " ge motor "that I got the super
deal
> > on " it brushes are hot and I mean hot . The motor is not even warm but
> the
> > brushes are so hot that there's no question something is wrong . Slow
> drove
> > back and the next day I'm looking at them and there's burn marks ect .
> When
> > I spun the motor over I though there was a lot of sparking going on .
This
> > motor looked new when I got it like no ware on the com. I'm turning it
> over
> > slow by hand and I see the brush move up and down at one point . If its
> > spun with electric you wouldn't see it but by slow turning it by hand
> there
> > it is (this is probable what any one should do when buying a used motor)
.
> > I don't know if it was bad when I got it or if this little joy ride
> without
> > a extra fan hooked up( it has a setup for extra fan which I don't have
> > yet ) cooked it . When I first hooded it up and spun it I though that
> there
> > were a lot of sparks coming from the brushes . Even if I have to have it
> > redone It was still a deal (wish I could drive to net gains shop and
save
> > the shipping ) . Maybe I'll just tell him he must buy a new motor and
stop
> > trying to build them for nothing out of parts that fall from the sky .
> Some
> > day I hope to come see you and your projects but as we both just have
EV's
> > that 150 miles is a little far.
> > Steve Clunn
> > jFort Pierce Florida.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:50 AM
> > Subject: Re: Selectria Sunrise? the Perfect High-Dollar EV could be
built.
> >
> >
> > > On 9 Dec 2002 at 9:58, 1sclunn wrote:
> > >
> > > > Where can I see this "sunrise"
> > >
> > > Not a lot of detail, but here's a plain vanilla photo:
> > >
> > > http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sunrise_ev/
> > >
> > > No idea what this group is all about; it has all of 2 members. The
> > archives
> > > (with exactly one message) are closed and membership restricted.
Maybe
> > it's
> > > one of Bruce Parmentier's specialty EV groups. Or did you start this
> one,
> > > Jerry?
> > >
> > > Simililar pic here with some interesting comments:
> > >
> > > http://www.solectria.com/products/accomp.html
> > >
> > > The Sunrise has made over 300 miles on a charge (stripped down to the
> > barest
> > > minimum mass). That was in a Tour de Sol (around 1996, I think; I
could
> > > look it up but don't want to take time right now). A prototype also
> drove
> > > from New York to Boston on a single charge, with James Worden behind
the
> > > wheel, and still had energy left over. That was with a NiMH battery
> > > (probably hand-selected modules too). But I have no doubt that it
could
> > > easily achieve a usable range of 100 miles with nicads.
> > >
> > > It's also no minicar. The Sunrise is about the size of a Ford Taurus,
> and
> > > has plenty of room for 4 adults. That's probably a plus for most
> > Americans,
> > > though I personally prefer small hatchbacks.
> > >
> > > The Sunrise is a remarkable EV, in many ways a much more
sophisticated
> > > design than the EV-1. It shows what can be done when smart engineers
> who
> > > understand electric vehicle design are given an appropriate
environment
> > and
> > > sufficient resources. I would love to see it put into production, and
> the
> > > thought of one in my driveway just about makes my eyes drool.
> > >
> > > A $55k price brings it closer, but -- well, I won't say no, but I
can't
> > say
> > > yes. I work for a nonprofit organization, and $55k is a lot of
> paychecks.
> > > I may have to wait for the second round when the price drops to
$35k --
> if
> > > it ever does.
> > >
> > >
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or
> > > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to
all
> > > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite
thee.
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all, I just thought I would warn any potential bidders that this motor is
not easily adaptable to EV type projects. It has no bearing support on the
internally splined output shaft and furthermore in the industry this is
referred to as the GE "Tin Can" motor as you will notice the smooth housing.
This is because the field poles are glued in. Can you say "Cheap"? They have
very low value even for the carts they will fit. The reason you see them on
Ebay is that someone has upgraded their cart. Some of these 48 volt units
are not series wound but are shunt wound motors used in the Club Car 48
volt powerdrive plus systems from 1996 to 2001.
Roderick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lonnie Borntreger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Evlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: Golf Cart forsale on Ebay (48V) MOTOR
> That would be the MOTOR, not the cart.
>
> On Tue, 2002-12-10 at 03:25, Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1980204610
> >
> > Not affiliated, just FYI.
> >
> > Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Holy Smoke! They went to a lot of trouble to sound legit - everything
but showing a demonstration unit working. Don't send money. Holey
smoke, indeed.
Neil
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 5:43 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Too good to be true. A water fuel cell?
http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news071202-01
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is true! I also have a break-through in technology
to extend EV range by attaching generators on the
wheels and recharge the battery while driving. For
years now, researchers are trying to do this.
However, the problem is the energy put in is more than
the energy taken out. However, by using
"micro-inertial-sustaining gyros", I have tapped into
a previously unknown source of energy held in a fast
spinning gyro ...
The device is called a "Einstein Device" and it is
ready for production in a few months. I am currently
taking orders and licensing rights. In order to keep
the cost down, I can only produce the device in high
production. Production will start after I receive the
1 millionth order. The earliest I get the orders, the
earliest I begin production. So, please place your
order by calling toll-free 1-800-UR-IDIOT now.
BS!
But, a lot of people will believe the story. If it is
true, they will get the Nobel Price immediately. BS!
Ed Ang
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news071202-01
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- Begin Message ---
The motor pictured is a shunt wound motor, I have one in my basement.
The typical control that goes with this has an armature current limit of
275A @ 48V.
The field is typically running at less than 10Amps.
It also has an encoder magnetic on the shaft to detect speed.
These are capable motors for a golfcart or go cart but would not be
suitable
for anything bigger (like a citicar).
Rod
Hi all, I just thought I would warn any potential bidders that this motor
is
not easily adaptable to EV type projects. It has no bearing support on the
internally splined output shaft and furthermore in the industry this is
referred to as the GE "Tin Can" motor as you will notice the smooth
housing.
This is because the field poles are glued in. Can you say "Cheap"? They
have
very low value even for the carts they will fit. The reason you see them on
Ebay is that someone has upgraded their cart. Some of these 48 volt units
are not series wound but are shunt wound motors used in the Club Car 48
volt powerdrive plus systems from 1996 to 2001.
Roderick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lonnie Borntreger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Evlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: Golf Cart forsale on Ebay (48V) MOTOR
> That would be the MOTOR, not the cart.
>
> On Tue, 2002-12-10 at 03:25, Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1980204610
> >
> > Not affiliated, just FYI.
> >
> > Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As usual, I will beleive it when I see it sitting in the middle of a room,
verifiably with no cables going to it, running a large load bank for a few
days.
Until then, I'm thinking this is just another in a very, very long list of
scams.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 4:42 AM
Subject: Too good to be true. A water fuel cell?
> http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news071202-01
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd make fun of these guys but it would be too easy. Take for example
the fact that both "organizations" Genesis World Energy and World Energy
Management both sprang into existence less than one month ago (at least
on the web), other than their own press release nobody has anything to
say about either company except each other. Both web sites are served
by the same machine and both domains are registered to people named Shaw
Hmm Charles Shaw is the corporate counsel and spokesman for Genesis and
the registered owner of the domain.
Darren Shaw is the registered owner of the World energy domain and
according to the "press release" Nejhla Shaw is the president.
I guess it's all one big family business?
> BS!
>
> But, a lot of people will believe the story. If it is
> true, they will get the Nobel Price immediately. BS!
>
> Ed Ang
>
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news071202-01
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear John,
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to all,
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > To perform really well as an EV, the vehicle
> really needs to be designed
> > from the ground up to be an EV.
>
> Oh come on, Lee! 'Needs' to be?
John, John, John, Do you really believe that?
The abililty for weight loss alone makes better
performance possible. Am I wrong?
A good ground up EV will have a 25% weight
advantage meaning about 25% less battery, 25% faster
acceleration for less $, same or more range. Is this
wrong?
>
> First, let's determine what 'perform' means. To get
> the ultimate in range per charge
> 'performance'...maybe. If you only consider range
> per charge as the primary performance
> parameter, well, I guess we could all be driving
> CommutaCars stuffed with a gazzilion
> oozing, acid-spitting golf car batteries.
Range, speed, handling, braking, comfort, looks
all go into performance. With a ground up EV, these
can be
increased over a conversion by a lot. See above.
>
> To get the ultimate in customer acceptance type of
> 'performance', no way! I'm talking
> 'quality of appearance performance' ....I'm talking
> about a car that has the look and feel
> of a high quality factory car, like a Honda, a
> Toyota, etc. That means body panels that
> fit with tidy seams that don't waver and vary, that
> means body panel materials that don't
> have sand marks, grooves, wavy and warped expanses,
> or god forbid, a Coleman ice cooler
> texture!
It was a prototype John. Probably the stripped out
one for the race, 373 mile max range test.
I have a good size picture of a very good looking
Sunrise that the composite company built. It was shot
with the light running down the side which would show
bad finish and looked good.
Your description of the surface shows that it was
not the mold finish as a production composite part
would not have been sanded, painted.
Probably why they sent it to a composite company
for the other one.
But even if it was the mold, it can be refinished
for excellent part quality or new molds built. The
composite company with the molds now do some of the
best work of any company. It has been building
composites since 1957.
>
> To get the ultimate in acceleration 'performance',
> again, it most certainly does not have
> to be a 'ground up' EV. We have way too many
> examples of killer EV acceleration from
> converted gas cars to demonstrate this.
You are wrong here. Any EV with 25% less weight
will beat a heavier conversion. Are you smoking
again? Or did you just want to debate Lee?
>
> To get the ultimate in handling 'performance', it
> also, most certainly does not have to
> be a 'ground up' EV. We have way too many examples
> of killer EV handling performance from
> converted gas cars to demonstrate this. The
> converted '65 Mustang I helped design and
> build back in '95, had a perfect 50/50 weight
> distribution and a very low CG...it would
> toast most any hopped up gasser Mustang in a slalom
> contest. I rode in a lowered,
> radically tricked out Fiesta EV with Optima's
> stuffed way low in the body cavities and a
> powerful EV power train... amazing, pull the skin
> off your cheeks cornering!
My example would be the T-Zero. Beat that while
keeping it's range? Can You? Not with a conversion.
Again the lower weight advantage of ground-up
EV's with the same power, $ will beat new conversions.
How much better can you get in CG height, batt
placement than with the batts low in the center tunnel
with batts as 50% EV weight as the Sunrise?
Better CG, lower weight and polar moment which
makes all the difference. Every good road racer knows
that. You can't get that in a conversion.
Drag racing is power/weight ratio which the G-up
EV will win from lighter weight compared to a
conversion. Do you disagree?
Do any of your Fast EV's have any range?
I don't consider 25 mile or much less range viable
in a production EV. Do you?
>
> For a long time, I've held my breath every time
> someone, including Lee, raves about the
> Solectria Sunrise, all because it ran so far on a
> charge using hand selected,
> cherry-picked, hand built NiMH Ovonics' best
> batteries. It's really interesting, that I
Let you breath out, you need the O2!!!
But even with stock ni-cads we will use it will
get 150+ mile range and a 10-25 year battery pack
life.
With Lithium batts coming up, range would be 300+.
Ni-MH is a non starter from cost, ect.
> started to write this rebuttal post yesterday,
> Sunday, including comments about the
> Sunrise,
> and as I am finishing it up today, Monday, the whole
> Sunrise salivation thing has once again,
> popped up, right on cue for this.
You just can't stand 'slow' EV's, can you?
I agree and would put a bigger AC drive in it for
EV-1 level performance.
>
> >From Jerry Dycus:
>
> >Of all the EV's built the Sunrise seems to be the
> best one if it can be put into
> >production.
>
> What on earth, makes it 'the best'? Other than an
> impressive range per charge, and that's
> only because of it's enormous ahr capacity from
> 'unobtantium' Ovonics hand-selected
> batteries, this car does not excel at
> 'anything'...in fact, it is inferior to even
> marginal vehicles.
The original was built as a mileage racer with
the compromises that it needed.
Aerodynamics is 1 way it is the best except for
the EV-1.
Weight is another.
And since the Sunrise weights only 2/3rds of an
EV-1 it makes up for slightly better aero at less
money.
As I stated in the post, it will use ni-cads so
your arguement on batts is ?
Range is #3. With ni-cads it will outrange, batts
out live any other production EV. With Lithium it will
double that range.
4 Seats!!!
Is that enough John??
>
> I saw the Sunrise in person, when it was just a mold
> sitting upside down in the backyard
> of the Solectria brick building years ago when I was
> back east. I saw it again at EVS 14
> back in '97 in Orlando...sat in it, checked it out
> from top to bottom, and drove it. Even
> back then, Lee was going on about this 'car'. Gotta
> tell ya folks....it looks like a 5
> year old built this! It had a poor quality (at best)
> composite body that makes a
> Corvette's wavy fiberglass panels look straight.
I can fix any finish problems if they are any
from the molds but the pics I have show they have
already fixed it.
It's a prototype you saw John.
> The interior can't save it, either...home-made
> looking is an understatement!
Almost all cars have bad interiors. I'll use
Recaro Seats, wood trim, leather, ect to make it top
notch.
> Their AC drive system
> is about as wimpy as they come, and
> the transmitted
> noise inside the car made you think you were driving
> a thrashing machine. Driving it was a
> depressing experience, with the word 'acceleration'
> seemingly unsuitable to use as a term.
A larger Ev drive will be used. Better, quieter
tires and get rid of the power brakes, ect will quiet
things down. Another is to put one of your sound
systems in it.
As you know without the noise of an ICE all the
other noises seem louder. There are ways to take care
of that. Tires make most of the noise.
>
> >From David Roden:
>
> >The Sunrise is a remarkable EV, in many ways a
> much more sophisticated
> >design than the EV-1.
>
> (finger in mouth, gaggg) Better than an EV-1?
> Somebody call a doctor, I'm getting sick!
Is there a doctor in the house ;-0 ?
Quick, someone get John into the Blue Meanie so
he can get his fix of tire smoke to make him well!!
> OK, I agree, it 'will be' ...after the EV-1's get
> crushed!
It's better because it weighs only 2/3rds of an
EV-1 that needs only 2/3rds the power for the same
acceleration, that's better.
You can get it fixed and parts for it, that's
better.
You will be able to buy it.
Costs less.
Range is better.
Seats 4 people.
Faster charging.
Better hot weather performance, longer batt life
with ni-cads.
Conductive charging.
Ect.
>
> Let's see...Sunrise, 0-60 in an agonizing 17
> seconds...EV-1, 0-60 in 7.6 seconds (Road &
> track tested).
> Sunrise, wavy, ill-fitting body panels...EV-1,
> the look, fit, and feel of a quality import.
> Sunrise, creaking body, tacky interior...EV-1,
> solid body, nicely assembled interior.
Your talking a production Ev worth $100,000+ with
a billion $ start-up verses a prototype, John.
With the same drive the Sunrise would beat the
pants off the EV-1. And a larger EV drive is planned
for it.
> >It shows what can be done when smart engineers who
> >understand electric vehicle design are given an
> appropriate environment and
> >sufficient resources.
>
> The Sunrise for me, is the ultimate example of what
> can happen when 'engineers' go
> unchecked by 'normal' people. Sunrise, brought to
> you by the same 'smart engineers' who
> brought us the $40k Geo Metro!!! Yup, you just have
> to use 'smart engineers who understand
> electric vehicle design' to come up with a Geo Metro
> that has truly awful acceleration, a
> severely limited top speed, mediocre hill pulling
> ability,
> and has the same range as a backyard, $8k DC powered
> EV conversion, all for just $40k!!
See what I mean about conversions? That's why it
needs to be EV from the ground up. The Force is a good
example of this. Thanks.
The DC comment applies to the EV-1 too and any
AC EV.
If I can get the molds for a kit car, a DC
version will be built.
So do you plan on bringing a production EV to
market? How would you do it better?
It's easy to put something down by picking at it
and putting it in the worse light. But this doesn't
help get EV's into production.
If you think you can do better in a production EV
with good range, please do it.
Yours Always,
Jerry Dycus
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--- End Message ---
