EV Digest 2474
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Little trip to Berkeley. Range calculation.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Amps Volts can Kostov take?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) test
by "Chuck Alldrin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Chico EAA December meeting
by "Chuck Alldrin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Less green for more green
by Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Caps instead of batts
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: more substance, tone down the style
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil, and Hi Dollar Cars
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: OT: more substance, tone down the style
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Caps instead of batts
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) OT: Re: Less green for more green
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Long Shot Trade
by "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Less green for more green
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Hybrid Cars Are Attracting a Broad Range of Americans + OT
by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Caps instead of batts - unit watch.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Long Shot Trade
by "cox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Less green for more green
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: more substance, tone down the style
by "Doug Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Caps instead of batts
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Caps instead of batts
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: temp comp
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: battery temperature compensation
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Update: I went a few more miles and the pack after resting a few hours is
down to 124.24 at a range of 35.5 miles. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 1:17 PM
Subject: Little trip to Berkeley. Range calculation.
> The Aspire just got its first freeway trip of any distance. San Francisco
> to Berkeley. The 120v pack was down to 124.6. This is after 30.9 miles
of
> driving. I kept the speed to no more than 55mph. Mostly 45 due to
traffic
> and on the way back the Bay Bridge was jammed up. Temperature around 60
> with sun. That seems like good numbers. If I had been driving around the
> city with hops onto the freeway I would have had a lower battery voltage
for
> sure. These are 30 Delphi 8v batteries that charge on finish to around
> 132v. After a half hour of rest the voltage was back to 125.3. At this
> rate If you consider a 120v pack having a range from 128 fully charged.
108
> Dead and 118v being half full. It seems that I used about 1/8th of the
> pack. At the same rate that makes 240 miles range. Since that is
obviously
> wrong. How would I use voltage to figure range? Lawrence Rhodes....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I believe the people you are referring to as far as the aesthetical aspect,
style and art are Industrial Designers.
Incidently, I come from a family of engineers but I ended up being a Graphic
Designer. I always wanted to be an Industrial Designer though.
Grand Dad was a Chemical Engineer,
Dad is an Industrial Engineer,
My uncle is an Electrical Engineer,
My cousin is an Aeronautical Engineer,
My wife, Monica, is a Human Factors Engineer,
My sister is a Mechanical Engineer and
Her Husband is an Electrical Engineer
The engineering gene obviously skipped over me. I was never good at math.
But out of all the engineers in the family I was the one really interested
in EVs and ended up building one myself. At first my dad was pretty
skeptical. He couldn't understand why I would take a perfectly good running
gas car and electrify it, but after I finished building it he and everyone
else were pretty impressed.
When I was still at home the family often talked about starting a car
company. It was never serious though. My sister, the mechanical engineer,
would say . . .
"Chip can design the cars and we can tell him it can't be done."
John wrote:
>> I'd start, by making sure each and every engineer's concepts,
>> design, and construction, be closely monitored by a non
>> engineer type, someone with, god forbid, common
>> sense...someone who had the position to oversee everything
>> the engineers tired to push through, someone who is in touch
>> with aesthetics, a sense of style, a sense of art, a sense of
>> practicality, a sense of value, a sense of the competitive
>> spirit, and a feel for what everyday folks want and
>> appreciate. I'd probably keep the engineers in small guarded
>> rooms with a slot in the locked door where food goes in and
>> designs come out, and never, ever, let them roam with a free
>> reign...never let them talk to the public :-)
*************************************************
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
144 Volt Ford Escort
GE Elec-Trak E10
Check out the cool electric scooters we have at
SkooterCommuter
http://www.skootercommuter.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 425-672-7977 Fax: 425-672-7907
18908 Highway 99, Suite B
Lynnwood, WA 98036-5218
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: Amps Volts can Kostov take?
> Also one has to consider elect. an mech.condition of all brush motors when
> over current and over voltage is applied.Do the brushes move or retrack
under
> load?Are the fields/brusholders placed correctly(not on the stock ge
motors I
> started with)(for nameplate use YES)The brushes will retrack under heavy
> sideload use thus different bearings and housings are nessary to help.Are
> your armatures only commericaly balanced,vibs at high rpms may cause brush
> bounce,any hi bars?These mech.an elec.balancing issues must be overcome to
> obtain maxium outputs from your brush motors or you will fireball.
> DENNIS KILOWATT BERUBE the CURRENTELIMINATOR still the only ev in the
8
> sec territory without any arcing issues......................
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
test
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are invited to attend the Chico chapter of the Electric Auto Association
or "EAA".
Learn more about:
· Electric automobiles
· How to convert a car to electric
· Hybrid automobiles
· Fuel cell powered automobiles
· Compressed natural gas automobiles
This months topic will be videos on "Air powered cars" and the "EV
challenge".
Date: Saturday, December 14th from 11am to 1pm. The meeting is FREE, and all
are welcome.
Join us at the Videomaker/York Publishing Office, located at:
1350 East 9th St. (two blocks west of Hwy 99E)
Chico, CA
Directions:
Take Hwy 32/8th St. offramp. Go west 2 blocks to Bartlett turn left, go to
large new building on left.
We need you at the meeting to help the new EAA chapter in Chico.
If you are not now affiliated with a local chapter, we would welcome you to
transfer to our chapter.
EV's of all types (i.e.: autos, scooters, skateboards) and Hybrids are
welcome.
For more information call:
Chuck Alldrin
530-899-1835
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wednesday, December 11, 2002 8:41 AM, Lee Hart
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
> There is a hilarious science fiction story about World War III
> starting when German scientists secretly unleash a microbe that
> kills grape plants, rendering all Frenchmen sober. The
> infuriated French think the British did it, and create one to
> destroy tea plants. The British think it's an Arab plot, and
> destroy coffee plants. America is brought into the war when the
> Arabs in turn wipe out cocoa plants (there goes chocolate and
> cocaine!).
Sounds like an amusing, if mis-informed story: cocaine is produced
from ~coca~ leaves, not ~cocoa~ plants, and it takes a laboratory and
very large number of coca leaves to make any amount of cocaine have
been told. (Coca plants are a legitimate crop in Peru, where the
leaves are used to make a traditional tea that helps people cope with
the effects of high altitiude.)
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce and All,
I rarely read posts about ultra-caps because
they can store little power, under 100whrs, most way
under.
While they can charge/discharge fast to handle
very high peak loads, they are useless for anything
else like an EV. Would be killer as input caps of a
controller though.
Also they need special power electronics in
order to get all the power they do store because the
voltage goes down to 0 to get all the power. This is
expensive.
For those who may want to use this, Selectria
makes electronics, buck/ boost, for it. But ultra caps
are so much money for so little power, so much weight,
it's not worth it for any but gov type $.
HTH,
Jerry Dycus
--- Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [ref
>
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/33259
> ]
>
> Did anyone read that one?
> (is anyone reading any of them? Or am I wasting my
> time
> on this new OT interested EV List membership?)
>
> If Caps became affordable, think of their weight to
> capacity
> ratio, their nil maintenance, ... what else.
>
> ...
> One of the biggest arguments the automakers state is
> the range
> to cost. Even if Cap were used, the limiting factor
> would be the
> pubic charging.
>
> I know from personal experience that 6 kw is not as
> nice as
> 12 kw or higher.
>
> If caps were used, one would not have to be
> concerned with
> boiling electrolyte, or other battery chemistry
> issues.
>
> Watt do you think?
>
> =====
> ' ____
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
Ill dive in here, am engineer, too, but a differant one, to the meaning.
Fast forward down to JW's comment below;
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:45 PM
Subject: OT: more substance, tone down the style
> I might as well jump in here.
> My name is Andrew and I'm an engineer.
> I'm also an excellent technician (they are not mutually exclusive).
>
> When I read John's post (I always read John's stuff) on the Sunrise I
> had mixed reactions. I have to take Johns comments about the car
> seriously, John certainly knows more about electric cars than I do and
> he's actually seen the car which I have not.
>
It's so nice to have him up an' posting, like Old Times!
> I do take exception to John's remarks about engineers. I can only
> imagine he must have had some bad experiences (I myself had to explain
> tapered pipe threads to a junior engineer once) but that does not
> justify making broad generalizations.
> I've had technicians mess up parts for me because they couldn't convert
> metric to inches but I don't go around suggesting that technicians are
> morons that don't understand basic math.
>
> I wouldn't want John to stop posting, he has a lot to offer the list. I
> wouldn't even want to edit his style but I wish he could write without
> describing whole groups of people as being unfit to be let out in
> public.
>
> He starts out well enough:
>
> > I'd start, by making sure each and every engineer's concepts,
> > design, and construction, be closely monitored by a non
> > engineer type, someone with, god forbid, common sense...
> > someone who had the position to oversee everything
> > the engineers tired to push through,
>
> OK so far, common sense is not prohibited by having an engineering
> degree but it's not necessarily required either....
> Usually there IS a person who oversees everything the engineers try to
> push through, they are called managers. If the manager doesn't ask the
> right questions it's almost impossible for the engineer to come up with
> the right answers.
>
We're not flaming Managers here, maybe that should be directed their way,
as THEY may finalize design, over the engineer types, as they hafta watch
the bottom line, often too heavy handed.
> > someone who is in touch with aesthetics, a sense of style,
> > a sense of art, a sense of practicality, a sense of value,
> > a sense of the competitive spirit, and a feel for what everyday
> > folks want and appreciate.
>
> All laudable values which should be incorporated into every product. But
> if management doesn't include them in the job description then the
> engineer will be criticized if he attempts to sneak them in. Very few
> engineers have the luxury of doing things the way they want to.
> I should point out that the better engineers do have a sense of
> aesthetics and craftsmanship just as the better technicians have an
> understanding of stresses and mechanics.
>
> > I'd probably keep the engineers in small guarded
> > rooms with a slot in the locked door where food goes in and
> > designs come out, and never, ever, let them roam with a free
> > reign...never let them talk to the public :-)
>
OK (Grin) I deduct a bit of sarcasm here, yeah, a bit heavy, but I don't
think he means to paint every engineer with the same brush.He, like me, has
had to work on some project or item designed by somebody out on Mars, as far
as reality is concerned . Like to repair it. A few simple mods or thoughts
as to somebody actually may hafta FIX his creation.Too many things I have
worked on over the years, to clutter up the list with, but you know what I
mean.
> This is the part that really bothers me. If the engineers are not in
> touch with what the outside world requires the last thing they need is
> to be shut off from the rest of the world.
> I would suggest that John should require his engineers to go to NEDRA
> events, custom car shows and high end sound system competitions. Give
> bonuses for those who come to work in tricked out custom creations.
>
Right on Andy! Good point, and they could have fun and network with
other sharp guyz! New Ideas!
> --
> Andrew King
> Ann Arbor Michigan
> technology is the answer, what was the question?
>
My two Ohms worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Vince wrote:
Yeah, the cab-forward design with the long wheelbase and short nose & rear
make it difficult.
Isn't Mike Chancey doing one of these ?
No, I have never even driven a Neon. I did forward a question from someone
else to list about one a year or so ago I think.
My personal opinion is there is just not enough car here for 1200+ pounds
of batteries and 400-600 pounds of passengers. One or the other maybe, but
not both.
BTW John, the Neon, like virtually all cars made in the past 20 years
doesn't have any frame at all. Unibody construction, the body is the
frame. Reinforcing it would be a challenge.
I did have almost that much weight in batteries in my Civic with the
original 26 Delphi setup, but I gave up the back seat to centralize the
load, and of course carried only the driver and one passenger.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
> Jon wrote:
>
>
> > In 7.5 years, our entire economy will be dependant on a foreign
> > resource. Entirely.
>
> Since half of our oil consumption is imported, and assuming the stated
parameters, that number would be doubled to 15 years.
>
>
> Vince
>
Scary? You bet! Had to come out of lerk on the ongoing "Perfect Hi Dollar
EV" Thread here on the Diss-cussion list. J. Wayland, ya got things going.
For sure. I LOVE it! great dialogue starting up here. Pointing up tjhe
diversity of interests, missions, and needs of EV'ers on here. If we could
sorta come in SOMEwhere between the Corbin Sparrow, and the 40K Metro guyz,
engineer wise. I KNOW the talent is here to put together a good EV, but one
size' Aint gunna fit all. John will go for the killer racing DC system, Dave
Roden is gunna want the more serene AC to get him over the road.I'm with you
, David, here. We don't hafta settle for Citicar performance, though. I'm
talking about Keep-up-with NORMAL traffic go stuff. I think Jerry is on the
right trak , get a platform, glider ready to make mild or wild, depending on
how deep your pockets are.
I think that I met a differant Sunrise than John Wayland, though. I was
impressed with it's neat fit an finish. This isn't easy. Go ahead, guyz,
BUILD a car from scratch. The nickle and dime stuff will eat you up. Doors;
get a working window lifting mechanization, to work, and work right, I mean
after ya slam the door a few thousand times, against the latching
mechaninism yu cobbled up. Dashboard: getting it to go together with
Waylandsque finish. Details details! Seats, so somebody over 5'4" is
comfortable, or can adjust it so he is. Position of the stearing wheel,
column, pedals on the floor, so they are convenient to use.Yada yada yada I
can fill several pages. These were some of the stuff I faced in the Citicar
startup I was into, back then.I NEVER liked, being 6'5", pressed up against
the windshield in Citicar, and was vocal in changing the angle of the
cheezewedge shape, but the body guyz held their ground. I built up a little
runabout at Citicar, with MY ideas, the "Ampeater" we called it with MY idea
of a shape. Could sit in THAT one, windshield was at a more verticle angle.
Whatthehell, it didn't need super streamlining at 28 mph!The car finished
it's life as a shop "Gofur" vehicle. A little more Monday quarterbacking
'way too late. I felt we COULD have built a hellova more userfriendly
Citicar, with a bit more teamwork , in engineering and design, in the
beginning. I woulda gone with a Glas body, so it would look a bit more
professionally built. No tacky rivits and seams that it did have. I think
Beau" cleaned his act up with the Tropica?In all fairness, though.Tropics
guyz? But again,. needed finishing, engineering, JW spending a week, along
with Damon,an' Rich to get it all together so the drivers that buy it AREN'T
test pilots.
Bottom like, at last: Thanks guys! For the thoughtful comments and points
made. Gave me alot of thoughts, and to apreciate the talent we have here a
mouse click away.
My two watts worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andrew wrote:
> He starts out well enough:
Then says:
> > I'd probably keep the engineers in small guarded
> > rooms with a slot in the locked door where food goes in and
> > designs come out, and never, ever, let them roam with a free
> > reign...never let them talk to the public :-)
>
> This is the part that really bothers me.
Although I can see how engineers might be offended by these
comments, it was clear to me that John was joking here, hence the
smiley at the end. Compare this part to the many good points made
earlier and it becomes very clear. I loved this part and can
still see the visuals that it inspired on the first read.
...........................
A huge, heavy metal door, with iron straps running across
held on with giant rivets. A guard, standing with a loaded rifle,
at attention to each side of the door. John places a small, steaming
hot, fresh baked loaf of bread that he just brought straight from
the company kitchen, on the platform just below the slot before
retreating to a safe distance. The slot opens, and a hand very
tentatively reaches out and snatches the loaf of bread. Then after
the engineer peers through the slot, with eyes darting nervously from
side to side, a stack of designs appear on the shelf and the slot slams
closed. John picks up the stack of designs, and pawing his beard
thoughtfully, says: "Oh, this is brilliant! Just what I was looking
for, thanks Bill!" Of course, Bill could be anyone, but I think there
might be one Bill in particular that John might have been needling
for some fun and laugh. :^D
Seeya,
JB
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I researched this some before I installed my buddy paired Optima YTs. The
biggest problem is the lack of capacity per unit. Some of the large ones
from Maxwell store 2500 farads of electricity at 2.5v. But, any run of
the 12v mill battery stores something over 200,000 farads of electricity.
Plus, since they are 2.5v each, you have to pack in a lot of them (like
Nicad).
Also, unless you have regen at your disposal, you won't be getting anything
back into them.
I had also thought of using ultracaps as a buffer between the batteries
and the controller, to smooth out the power, and suffer less Peukert effect,
but that requires a bunch of ultracaps, plus a special high voltage DC to
DC converter (which Solectra sells), and other stuff. By the time you add
it all up, it's just not worth it. NiZn batteries would be a cheaper and
probably more reliable investment, even at this early stage.
I'd love to use the ultracaps, since you could charge them at whatever rate
you want, they will charge/discharge many hundreds of thousands of times,
and are very light. It's just not feasible for most of us.
Mark
>-- Original Message --
>Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:45:34 -0800 (PST)
>From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Caps instead of batts
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>[ref http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/33259 ]
>
>Did anyone read that one?
>(is anyone reading any of them? Or am I wasting my time
> on this new OT interested EV List membership?)
>
>If Caps became affordable, think of their weight to capacity
>ratio, their nil maintenance, ... what else.
>
>...
>One of the biggest arguments the automakers state is the range
>to cost. Even if Cap were used, the limiting factor would be the
>pubic charging.
>
>I know from personal experience that 6 kw is not as nice as
>12 kw or higher.
>
>If caps were used, one would not have to be concerned with
>boiling electrolyte, or other battery chemistry issues.
>
>Watt do you think?
>
>=====
>' ____
>~/__|o\__
>'@----- @'---(=
>. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
>. EV List Editor & RE newswires
>. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
>=====
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
> cocaine is produced
> from ~coca~ leaves, not ~cocoa~ plants, and it takes a laboratory and
> very large number of coca leaves to make any amount of cocaine have
> been told. (Coca plants are a legitimate crop in Peru, where the
> leaves are used to make a traditional tea that helps people cope with
> the effects of high altitiude.)
Yeah, and they also chew the leaves. Like all medicinals in
the western world, we isolate the particular active chemical and extract
it from the plant, so that it becomes dangerously concentrated
....and patentable.
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless I'm entirely mistaken, the reserve is how much oil we have on
hand that has already been pumped out of the ground.
Your calculation is only accurate when we run out of (or stop pumping)
oil from the ground here in the US.
On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 17:13, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
> According to http://www.msnbc.com/news/IRAQOIL_Front.asp>this (follow the
> oil link), the u.s. has a reserve of 22.2 billion barrels of oil, and
> consumes 8.1 million barrels a day.
>
> So, if we take 22,200,000,000 (22 billion) and divide it by 8,100,000, we
> should get the number of days of oil left.
>
> And, let's see..
>
> 2,470 days of oil left.
>
> Let's divide by 365
>
> 7.5 years.
>
> Does anyone else find this a little alarming?
>
> In 7.5 years, our entire economy will be dependant on a foreign resource.
> Entirely.
>
> Does anyone really think we will have a working hydrogen economy by then? EV
> technology is ready to step in and fill the void now. Fuel cells still, last
> I looked, require platinum, which is kind of rare.. not to mention all the
> headaches involved with storing hydrogen, generating hydrogen, etc...
>
> Okay, preaching to the choir again..
>
> S.
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 21:35, Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
> Unless I'm entirely mistaken, the reserve is how much oil we have on
> hand that has already been pumped out of the ground.
Correct. And only the government can authorize releasing oil from the
reserve in times of crisis.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Listers,
I know this is a long shot but here goes. I bought and restored a
1972 BMW R75/5 motorcycle before I saw the light concerning EVs. Is there
anyone out there who would want to trade a running EV for this bike. I need
something that can get me to work and back (17 miles each way). I live in
Virginia Beach, VA. The minimum I'd like in an EV is an ADC 9 incher and 120
volts. Thanks guys.
John David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What does the pack weigh? 200 pounds? Lets just say you use a pack that
was 300 pounds. That aught to be enough if you keep the speed down. Drive
it like an NEV and then charge when the SOC is 50%. Should work then as a
plug in Hybrid. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: Less green for more green
> >Wouldn't doubling the size of the Prius pack allow an 8 to 10 mile range
at
> >about 25 mph? Can the electric motor take that speed for that long?
> >Interesting idea to hack the Prius systems. So far it is the only Hybrid
> >that can run on electric only. It is actually the only candidate for
this
> >treatment. Lawrence Rhodes....
>
> Due to pack management that allows relatively little of the pack to
> be used (especially limiting amps at lower SOC) the Prius can do
> about 2 miles of level road at 35mph before the ICE kicks in (or much
> sooner if the AC is on). So, unless you plan to totally rewrite
> battery management SOC controls you need about 4 to 5 times the pack.
> Then a way to rewrite just the "capacity" part of the code.
>
> Warning, the Prius is dead slow on battery power. We are talking
> about a 2700lbs car with 33kW of electric power (and dropping when
> the SOC drops to 1/2 indicated).
>
> Neon
>
> P.S. - I *think* this is on topic because you are trying to make a
> part time EV out of a gas/electric hybrid
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for correcting the % imported figure. I was looking at global
production (opps), of which 90% of which is foreign.
Regarding the Oil for Food program, (UN resolution 986), it now covers
many sectors of the economy but food is by far the largest at 40%.
http://www.un.org/Depts/oip/background/fact-sheet.html
http://www.un.org/Depts/oip/background/basicfigures.html
I found a remotely-possible-to-understand summary (of consumption and
imports) here; http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html which
included the following text:
"Consumption/Marketing
The United States is estimated to be consuming an average of about 19.7
MMBD of oil in 2002. Of this, 8.9 MMBD (or 45% of the total) is motor
gasoline, 4.8 MMBD (24%) "other oils," 3.8 MMBD (19%) distillate fuel
oil, 1.7 MMBD (8%) jet fuel, and 0.7 million bbl/d (3%) residual fuel
oil. U.S. oil demand is expected to increase by about 3% (670,000 bbl/d)
in 2003. Following the September 11 terrorist attacks, U.S. jet fuel
demand fell sharply. For the first nine months of 2002, U.S. jet fuel
consumption was down 6% compared to the same period in 2001.
Imports/Exports
The United States averaged total gross oil (crude and products) imports
of an estimated 11.2 MMBD during the first nine months of 2002,
representing around 57% of total U.S. oil demand. Around two-fifths of
this oil came from OPEC nations, with Persian Gulf sources accounting
for about one-fifth of total U.S. oil imports. Overall, the top
suppliers of oil to the United States during the first nine months of
2002 were Canada (1.9 MMBD), Saudi Arabia (1.5 MMBD), Mexico (1.5 MMBD),
and Venezuela (1.4 MMBD)."
It's economically in our best interest to import as much oil as we can,
then when the global supply dwindles we can sell ours for big buck$.
- GT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vince [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:24 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Hybrid Cars Are Attracting a Broad Range of Americans
>
>
>
> George wrote:
>
> > Decent article, except we don't buy much oil from
> Saddam/Iraq (% of US
> > oil imports from Iraq fluctuated from 3-9% since 1997, zero from
> > 1990-97).
>
> That's merely due to the amount the U.S. purchases from Iraq
> as part of the 'Food for Oil' program. The money is held in
> escrow by the
> UN, who buys food and medicine which is dispersed to the
> Iraqi people. None of the money goes to the Iraqi government.
>
>
> > About 90% of our oil is imported.
>
> According to Daniel Yergin, the chairman of Cambridge Energy
> Research Associates and the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of
> "The Prize:
> The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, and Power", the U.S. is
> currently importing 51% of it's oil, the same proportion of
> oil as we were importing
> 20 years ago.
>
> That's not to say it will not rise in the future, as it
> surely will if nothing else changes.
>
>
> Vince
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Dodrill wrote:
>
> I researched this some before I installed my buddy paired Optima YTs. The
> biggest problem is the lack of capacity per unit. Some of the large ones
> from Maxwell store 2500 farads of electricity at 2.5v. But, any run of
> the 12v mill battery stores something over 200,000 farads of electricity.
> Plus, since they are 2.5v each, you have to pack in a lot of them (like
> Nicad).
I might start forgetting basics, but if I remember right, Farad is a
unit of capacitance, ability to store electric charge. The measure of
charge is Coulomb (Q) - the amount of electrons that has been
displaced. One coulomb of charge equal amount of charge carried by
electrons moved in the conductor with 1A current for 1 second.
('Course, "Farad" is derived from the last name of Michael Faraday.)
If you charge a capacitor with 1 coulomb of charge and as a result
its voltage raised by 1 volt, this capacitor has a capacitance value
of 1 Farad.
Basics: C=Q/V, or C=I*t/V
I see what are you trying to say but "Farads of electricity" is as
invalid as "Hertz of radio waves". Only Coulombs can be stored.
2500F 2.5V capacitor can store up to 6250Q of charge.
For your reference it will take about 1 min of 100A current
flowing into it to achieve that.
Victor
http://www.electronicstheory.com/html/e101-30.htm
to have basic capacitor understanding.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Vince asked:
> I assume he meant on a mass scale. You have someplace you can
> store a few hundred kilowatts of electricity for an extended
> period of time ?
I can think of several - they're all hydro dams. Just add pumps.
--
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John
I also am in Va Beach and want to get my first EV.
What do you want for the BMW ?
Good luck , I tried to get the $500 rabbit but I was too slow.
I has gone to a good home though in CT.
Trotman Simpson
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Shelton, John D. AW2
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:15 PM
To: Ev (E-mail)
Subject: Long Shot Trade
Listers,
I know this is a long shot but here goes. I bought and restored a
1972 BMW R75/5 motorcycle before I saw the light concerning EVs. Is there
anyone out there who would want to trade a running EV for this bike. I need
something that can get me to work and back (17 miles each way). I live in
Virginia Beach, VA. The minimum I'd like in an EV is an ADC 9 incher and 120
volts. Thanks guys.
John David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> There is a hilarious science fiction story... America is brought
>> into the war when the Arabs wipe out cocoa plants (there goes
>> chocolate and cocaine!)
Roger Stockton wrote:
> Sounds like an amusing, if mis-informed story: cocaine is produced
> from ~coca~ leaves, not ~cocoa~ plants
Probabbly my forgettory at work. I read the story about 20 years ago!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well said, Andrew!
Very insightful (for someone from Michigan ;-) - Just thought this
thread had to have one more incorrect stereotype thrown in....)
I'd go so far as to say that the best engineers are also technicians
and the best techs are also in possession of good engineering skills. I'd
even dare to suggest that John would not have had half of the success he has
had (as a technician?) without also being a decent engineer. In a lot of
real-world cases, the difference between "engineer" and "technician" is so
slight that it is practically artificial anyway.
An engineer designs working systems (for production), while a technician
makes (already-produced) systems work. Neither can be done without the
other, and I'm betting that everyone on this list uses both "engineering
skills" and "technician skills" during the course of a normal day (or at
least while in the garage).
And as for the "Overpaid Idiots" comment, I can only answer from
personal experience: I've been called an "Engineer" in most of the jobs that
I've held (although my actual jobs have been more "technician" in nature).
I've never been overpaid and I resent it that someone is saying that I have
been ;-)
-Doug Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 6:45 PM
Subject: OT: more substance, tone down the style
> I might as well jump in here.
> My name is Andrew and I'm an engineer.
> I'm also an excellent technician (they are not mutually exclusive).
>
> When I read John's post (I always read John's stuff) on the Sunrise I
> had mixed reactions. I have to take Johns comments about the car
> seriously, John certainly knows more about electric cars than I do and
> he's actually seen the car which I have not.
>
> I do take exception to John's remarks about engineers. I can only
> imagine he must have had some bad experiences (I myself had to explain
> tapered pipe threads to a junior engineer once) but that does not
> justify making broad generalizations.
> I've had technicians mess up parts for me because they couldn't convert
> metric to inches but I don't go around suggesting that technicians are
> morons that don't understand basic math.
>
> I wouldn't want John to stop posting, he has a lot to offer the list. I
> wouldn't even want to edit his style but I wish he could write without
> describing whole groups of people as being unfit to be let out in
> public.
>
> He starts out well enough:
>
> > I'd start, by making sure each and every engineer's concepts,
> > design, and construction, be closely monitored by a non
> > engineer type, someone with, god forbid, common sense...
> > someone who had the position to oversee everything
> > the engineers tired to push through,
>
> OK so far, common sense is not prohibited by having an engineering
> degree but it's not necessarily required either....
> Usually there IS a person who oversees everything the engineers try to
> push through, they are called managers. If the manager doesn't ask the
> right questions it's almost impossible for the engineer to come up with
> the right answers.
>
> > someone who is in touch with aesthetics, a sense of style,
> > a sense of art, a sense of practicality, a sense of value,
> > a sense of the competitive spirit, and a feel for what everyday
> > folks want and appreciate.
>
> All laudable values which should be incorporated into every product. But
> if management doesn't include them in the job description then the
> engineer will be criticized if he attempts to sneak them in. Very few
> engineers have the luxury of doing things the way they want to.
> I should point out that the better engineers do have a sense of
> aesthetics and craftsmanship just as the better technicians have an
> understanding of stresses and mechanics.
>
> > I'd probably keep the engineers in small guarded
> > rooms with a slot in the locked door where food goes in and
> > designs come out, and never, ever, let them roam with a free
> > reign...never let them talk to the public :-)
>
> This is the part that really bothers me. If the engineers are not in
> touch with what the outside world requires the last thing they need is
> to be shut off from the rest of the world.
> I would suggest that John should require his engineers to go to NEDRA
> events, custom car shows and high end sound system competitions. Give
> bonuses for those who come to work in tricked out custom creations.
>
> --
> Andrew King
> Ann Arbor Michigan
> technology is the answer, what was the question?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce asks:
"Did anyone read that one?"
Sure; important topic with great potential for low voltage setups.
Caps will Not replace batteries using existing technologies.
"(is anyone reading any of them? Or am I wasting my time
on this new OT interested EV List membership?)"
Adding the subject would help though. I could (did) jump onto the web
to see it, but the subject should be enough. I have had to use Yahoo
recently due to missing digests for 3 weeks. (o.k. recently though)
"If Caps became affordable, think of their weight to capacity
ratio, their nil maintenance, ... what else."
Power to Weight ratio. Enough additional energy for 1 or 2
accelerations. Even when NiMH or better batteries become available,
the UC will have a place.
"One of the biggest arguments the automakers state is the range
to cost. Even if Cap were used, the limiting factor would be the
public charging."
The UC in Urban use reduces the battery load which increases range
just like using light Amps. Regen would be even more useful.
"If caps were used, one would not have to be concerned with
boiling electrolyte, or other battery chemistry issues."
You will never use these for storing Amp hours. A full pack wouldn't
get you a mile. And, they do have some 'ESR' resistance so there is
some limit to the usable Watt hours cycling.
"Watt do you think?"
This piece had no actual data/specification, so I didn't save it, but
it's nice to know there are competitors working the problem. Again,
these are not kW hr storage, they are kW boosters for EVs.
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 11:23, jerry dycus wrote:
> Hi Bruce and All,
> I rarely read posts about ultra-caps because
> they can store little power, under 100whrs, most way
> under.
> While they can charge/discharge fast to handle
> very high peak loads, they are useless for anything
> else like an EV. Would be killer as input caps of a
> controller though.
I don't even think they would make good filter caps for controllers.
Last I heard ultra caps still had relatively high ESR which would make
them useless as high power filter caps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 09:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I don't seem to be able to get as much of a charge as I had been a month or 2 ago.
>The charger is not temperature compensated. It had been warm for this time of year
>but it's now in the mid 40's in the early morning. I'm guessing the batteries are 20
>degrees colder than they were. The US Battery web site says to adjust the charging
>voltage .028v / cell / 10 degrees. Is this for both bulk and finish charge? It sounds
>like I need to turn up my charger by about 2 volts (72volt pack).
>
>
Even if you charge them properly colder batteries won't produce as many
AHs as warmer ones. To get them back to the way it was a month ago,
warm the batteries back to that temperature.
I use 1" of insulation and overcharge the batteries to warm them (this
also helps because they are near the end of their service life and need
frequent equalization anyway).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter,
Thanks for the reply. I'm seeing a lower resting voltage
than I used to. Previously when checked the resting voltage
after about 9 hours off the charger, I'd get about 76. Now I'm getting between 74.5
and 75. I did a charging profile with my laptop and a DMM before but I haven't checked
it again to see if something changed. Quick checks of current seem the same.
I don't have room for much insulation around the batteries in my Tropica and I would
think overcharging them would require more frequent cleaning. Getting at thebatteries
for cleaning is a major pain. Can anyone quantify the lost amp hrs due to cold? If
it's 20 degress colder do I loose 50%? Please don't laugh at my California definition
of cold!
thanks,
Steve
In a message dated 12/12/2002 7:22:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter A VanDerWal
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 09:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> I don't seem to be able to get as much of a charge as I had been a month or 2 ago.
>The charger is not temperature compensated. It had been warm for this time of year
>but it's now in the mid 40's in the early morning. I'm guessing the batteries are 20
>degrees colder than they were. The US Battery web site says to adjust the charging
>voltage .028v / cell / 10 degrees. Is this for both bulk and finish charge? It sounds
>like I need to turn up my charger by about 2 volts (72volt pack).
>>
>>
>
>Even if you charge them properly colder batteries won't produce as many
>AHs as warmer ones. To get them back to the way it was a month ago,
>warm the batteries back to that temperature.
>
>I use 1" of insulation and overcharge the batteries to warm them (this
>also helps because they are near the end of their service life and need
>frequent equalization anyway).
>
>
--- End Message ---
