EV Digest 2475

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) OT: zinc/zinc oxide packs
        by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Caps instead of batts
        by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by Adam Kuehn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Long Shot Trade
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Caps instead of batts
        by James Wolfe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Caps instead of batts
        by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Caps instead of batts
        by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) OT: news toward profits, EV Electricty costs
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: OT: news toward profits, EV Electricty costs
        by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) EV dash
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Caps instead of batts
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) EVs4Sale : Long Shot Trade
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Caps instead of batts
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
        by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: EV dash
        by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) San Jose EAA meeting this Saturday 10am
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Coolant pump choice?
        by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Caps instead of batts
        by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) KTA Services info.
        by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Group 45 Ah equivalent: stereo current draws
        by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: Caps instead of batts
        by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV (LONG)
        by "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 29) RE: OT: more substance, tone down the style
        by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
sorry if this is a little OT

I would like to ask you builders what you think of the zinc/zinc-oxide cycle
primary battery packs, and the design implications of their use

the two methods I've seen of using this zinc chemistry are 1) zinc pellets that
are filled into a hopper and then removed when expended and 2) packs which have 
zinc plates in them, with the entire packs being swapped

in both cases the expended material (zinc-oxide) is recovered and recharged and 
made available again

I'm presuming that the swapable-pack method would be preferable, so presuming
that their energy density (as advertised) is about 5 times that of lead-acid
batteries, does it seem reasonable that it will be possible to build these packs 
into conversion EVs (and have them be realistically accessable for rapid 
swapping)?

also, I haven't been able to tell from the stuff I've seen, but does anyone know 
if the zinc/zinc-oxide cycle can be used for secondary batteries as well as for 
primary batteries?

it seems like this chemistry has very strong potential, but there is the issue 
of establishing infrastructure for pack exchage and recharging, etc
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Less than 1 milliohm ESR DC and at 1kHz is typical, often more like 0.5
milliohm. But I don't know what the ESR of a bus cap should be, I am
sure Otmar or someone else could answer that. 

Just like batteries, you have to fully discharge them to get all the
energy out, but to get most, you really only have to discharge to about
half the max voltage. Still a much wider voltage swing than the least
stiff battery. But if your controller can take from say 380 to 160VDC,
(or 192 to 72) you can get most of the energy. State of charge is a
cinch, it is related to voltage. It is nice to see them creeping towards
10Wh/kg. Maybe my prediction of them being useful for drag racers might
happen by 2004 ;)

Seth

Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 11:23, jerry dycus wrote:
> >        Hi Bruce and All,
> >          I rarely read posts about ultra-caps because
> > they can store little power, under 100whrs, most way
> > under.
> >         While they can charge/discharge fast to handle
> > very high peak loads, they are useless for anything
> > else like an EV. Would be killer as input caps of a
> > controller though.
> 
> I don't even think they would make good filter caps for controllers.
> Last I heard ultra caps still had relatively high ESR which would make
> them useless as high power filter caps.

-- 
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thomas Shay wrote:

I enjoyed reading John Wayland's rebuttal of the idea that a good
EV has to be designed from the ground up as an EV and that the
Solectrica Sunrise was a shining example of such a car.
John and others have amply proved that ICE powered cars can
be made into very good EVs.  Whatever the Sunrise was, it most
certainly was not what the subject title says--"perfect high-dollar EV"
Whether or not you feel the Sunrise was "perfect" (something I sincerely doubt any of us have ever seen in a car), why deride it? Conversions are great for some people, but for others without the time or talent to put into making their own, an OEM car is a practical necessity. Some folks just can't build their own, period. In addition, a conversion vehicle, among other problems for the end user, has no maintenance infrastructure to fall back on should a critical system fail - if the buyer could reliably repair a blown controller, for example, it stands to reason s/he could have installed the thing into a conversion in the first place. Having an OEM standing behind the vehicle with some kind of warranty scheme is essential for people who can't/won't "roll their own."

Again I'm forced to draw an analogy from the computer world: Most computer users don't care *how* it works, they just care *that* it works. They are not impressed, for example, by a fully standards-compliant website that doesn't work with the faulty rendering engine in Internet Explorer 6. All they care about is that when they open the site in their default browser the site looks funny. Most car users are the same way. They are not impressed that an EV is pushing the limits of battery technology. They just want to use the car to accomplish their day-to-day tasks without having the maintenance and refueling issues intruding into their everyday lives. Thus product support for any mass-marketed vehicle, particularly one that is of a different fundamental type from the norm, is absolutely essential.

Based on everything I've heard about Solectria, they grasped this concept with both hands and product support was *not* one of their faults.

I'm sure plenty of people have put together conversions that suit their needs as well or better than the Sunrise would. Good for them. I applaud their work, and hope they will continue to ply the roads. There is more than enough room in the EV world for both home-growns and OEMs, even if the latter fall somewhat short of perfection - or even if they fall a bit short of what the very best home conversions can and do achieve.

An individual or a small company simply cannot make an automobile
from the ground up that will be better than a good converted ICE.
Define "better".

And regardless of how you define it, why not? Or do you just mean that a home conversion will always be cheaper (something few people would bother disputing)?

It might be theoretically possible but I don't think it's ever been done.
But shouldn't we applaud every attempt? Even if it isn't exactly what *you'd* want in a car, isn't it a good effort if it is what *somebody* wants? I'd have never leased an EV1 - that vehicle simply didn't meet my own personal needs. But I think it was great to have them offered, since it increased the awareness and acceptance of EVs and, therefore, the odds that someday an EV I could use would eventually be offered.

I think the same is true of the Sunrise, except that a Sunrise may actually be a car I could use and I'd have to seriously consider whether or not a car in that price range would be a legitimate option for me. I'd certainly enjoy being forced to evaluate that possibility.

--

-Adam Kuehn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,

> No, I have never even driven a Neon.  I did forward a question from
> someone else to list about one a year or so ago I think.

OK. I misunderstood what was posted here:

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/101.html

It's Eric Lambert that is suposedly converting a Neon. Your name was just at the 
bottom. That's what I get for not paying full attention.

Any word on whether he is going through with it ?

 
> My personal opinion is there is just not enough car here for 1200+
> pounds of batteries and 400-600 pounds of passengers.  One or the
> other maybe, but not both.

Same here.


Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Shelton wrote:
> I need something that can get me to work and back (17 miles each
> way). I live in Virginia Beach, VA. The minimum I'd like in an EV
> is an ADC 9 incher and 120 volts.


I'm curious as to how you decided on the 9" at 120 volts as your
minimum. Under load, that means more like 105 volts so somewhat ho-hum
performance. Something like a small pickup truck with 20 6-volt golf
cart batteries (i.e. T145's) and battery heaters would meet your stated
goals, but may or may not fit your driving style.

It might help to specify things like driving speeds, types of roads,
hills, vehicle size, etc. along with the distance before deciding on
your drive train.


_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce,
I read it! Veerryy interesting I might add.. almost enough to get
excited about.
Keep the articles coming... I'm sure I'm not the only one reading them.
We just seem to get distracted sometimes, what with the rapid fire
e-mails and sometimes the responses are even quicker - better'n the
daytime soaps...

"Breath easy, it's electric!"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter wrote:

> > Unless I'm entirely mistaken, the reserve is how much oil we have on
> > hand that has already been pumped out of the ground.

Lonnie added:
 
> Correct.  And only the government can authorize releasing oil from the
> reserve in times of crisis.

You guys are confusing "reserves" with the America's "Strategic Petroleum Reserve".

Reserves, or more specifically proven reserves, are what somebody has in the ground. A 
known, measurable quantity of oil.

The SPR is an emergency oil reserve that is stored in salt caverns along the Gulf 
Coast by the U.S. government.


Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 8:22 PM -0500 12/12/02, Seth wrote:
Less than 1 milliohm ESR DC and at 1kHz is typical, often more like 0.5
milliohm. But I don't know what the ESR of a bus cap should be, I am
sure Otmar or someone else could answer that.
If that's for a 2.5V cap, then you need to remember that resistance adds when you series them. So a 450V unit would require 180 caps and be 90 milliohms. In comparison, the cap banks on my controllers are 450V and 40 milliohms.

The real problem with using them is the size. Controller filter caps need to have a very low inductance connection to the rest of the controller. Over 6" of leads can destroy a controller with voltage spikes.

I've heard from a few people that Ultra Caps may be approaching levels appropriate for drag racing. I've also heard of a few attempts being cancelled after analysis. I'm taking a wait and see attitude.

-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce and All,
Although I live in the Portland, OR area, a friend and I made a trip to
Detroit a couple of weeks ago to pick up two EV Rangers and a bunch of
parts. On the way back to Portland we made a side trip to Bowling Green
State University in Ohio to look at their EV program. They have an extensive
layout with the usual race car and a number of other interesting projects.
One of those projects is a large cube type van that they are converting to
hybrid. As part of this conversion they are using a bank of super
capacitors. There is enough capacitors to cover the top of a dinner table
but they calculate that it is the equivalent energy of one YT. One YT in all
that space. Now if we don't have enough space in our rigs to squeeze YTs,
how in the world will we use super caps. Just my two cents.
Dan Bortel
3 EV Rangers (2 for sale)
EZGO
Elec Trak E-20

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:45 PM
Subject: Caps instead of batts


> [ref http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/33259 ]
>
> Did anyone read that one?
> (is anyone reading any of them? Or am I wasting my time
>  on this new OT interested EV List membership?)
>
> If Caps became affordable, think of their weight to capacity
> ratio, their nil maintenance, ... what else.
>
> ...
> One of the biggest arguments the automakers state is the range
> to cost. Even if Cap were used, the limiting factor would be the
> pubic charging.
>
> I know from personal experience that 6 kw is not as nice as
> 12 kw or higher.
>
> If caps were used, one would not have to be concerned with
> boiling electrolyte, or other battery chemistry issues.
>
> Watt do you think?
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above EV ascci art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[Although my point is Electric prices and availability for EVs,
 and how that will effect EV sales or lease, I labeled this OT.
 Some will tangent as we have seen to the point of insanity.
 Please keep this topic EV releated]

Tonight's ABC World News Tonight program mentions energy prices
going up (electricity, etc.). 

I have not heard my Electricity rates are going up. I did a news
web search on this but did not get very far. I did not see any 
news items to support the ABC piece. Usually I see the major 
TV news discussing 'old news' pieces (the last to know).

But I did find a link to a NPR piece of the CA energy ripoff
http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20021115.atc.03.ram
Californian EV drivers will remember that few were happy with
anyone using Electricity, and ICE drivers were quick to point
the finger at EVs. We all had to be ready to politely 
respond with that EVs charge at night and are not a peak user.

Since ABC's broadcast spoke of national price increases, this
would effect EVs in the North Americas. 

The next ABC piece was about East Coast'rs that have to choose
between their mortgage payment or heat.

While the ABC pieces had visuals that were impressive, I view
it as proficy to make the prices/profits go up (throw a scare
into the public). 

With the push of hybrids and the media releases for the public
to hold out/wait for fcvs (which makes batt EVs old tech), a 
rise in electricity prices would be one more nail in the 
rechargeable EV coffin.

We won't know until later if the scare has an effect and 
produces a rise in Electricity prices (or if I am just over
concerned of anything that might effect EVs). I would be glad 
if I am wrong.

Was it 'News' toward profits?
Or will it have about as much effect as the 1 mpg increase SUV
mileage requirements?

Kilo watt do you think?



=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 20:44, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> Tonight's ABC World News Tonight program mentions energy prices
> going up (electricity, etc.). 
> 
> I have not heard my Electricity rates are going up. I did a news
> web search on this but did not get very far. I did not see any 
> news items to support the ABC piece. Usually I see the major 
> TV news discussing 'old news' pieces (the last to know).

Might be totally unrelated, but our gas prices today are $.15 higher
than yesterday.

Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I just checked out the web site http://www.ohler.com/downloads/index.html#EVDash
It has software for PC downloads for EV dash and EV1 Dash.
It also has source code for Metro Works Code Warrior (which I have for the Motorola
MCU's).
Anyhow, I just purchased a Palm M125 and wonder if it works with EVdash?
I'll try it regardless, but I wonder if anybody has before me?
I plan on using it with the E meter on the Dodge TEVan. I would really like to
know how fast the pack on my TEVan is discharging in my garage with just the amateur radio on.
It's been sitting there for 3 weeks because the weather sucks here in Ohio and I won't
drive it in the salt. After about a week of sitting it charges for about 1 hour at 10KW.
Seems like alot for the 180Ahr NiCd pack, but this is what I would like to track more
closely.
How about the interface cable from the Emeter to Palm? I would prefer to build
my own if somebody has the parts list.
Thanks,
Rod
www.qsl.net/w8rnh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Dan,
Where can we find more info about the rangers for sale?
When I was working with Allison Transmission on their Hybrid bus, they
showed me a VERY LARGE dinner table of supper caps. Their explanation
for this is to use the caps for quick regen charge and quick acceleration.
This would allow significantly less stress on the battery pack. I have no experience
with this, maybe they were just getting some freebe government grants.
I would think there is some scientific confirmation of this?
Certainly Puke-hurt would be helped out with less stress on the Pba, but does
this help with other chemistries?
Rod

BORTEL wrote:

Hi Bruce and All,
Although I live in the Portland, OR area, a friend and I made a trip to
Detroit a couple of weeks ago to pick up two EV Rangers and a bunch of
parts. On the way back to Portland we made a side trip to Bowling Green
State University in Ohio to look at their EV program. They have an extensive
layout with the usual race car and a number of other interesting projects.
One of those projects is a large cube type van that they are converting to
hybrid. As part of this conversion they are using a bank of super
capacitors. There is enough capacitors to cover the top of a dinner table
but they calculate that it is the equivalent energy of one YT. One YT in all
that space. Now if we don't have enough space in our rigs to squeeze YTs,
how in the world will we use super caps. Just my two cents.
Dan Bortel
3 EV Rangers (2 for sale)
EZGO
Elec Trak E-20

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:45 PM
Subject: Caps instead of batts



[ref http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/33259 ]

Did anyone read that one?
(is anyone reading any of them? Or am I wasting my time
on this new OT interested EV List membership?)

If Caps became affordable, think of their weight to capacity
ratio, their nil maintenance, ... what else.

...
One of the biggest arguments the automakers state is the range
to cost. Even if Cap were used, the limiting factor would be the
pubic charging.

I know from personal experience that 6 kw is not as nice as
12 kw or higher.

If caps were used, one would not have to be concerned with
boiling electrolyte, or other battery chemistry issues.

Watt do you think?

=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lesley wrote:

> > I assume he meant on a mass scale. You have someplace you can 
> > store a few hundred kilowatts of electricity for an extended 
> > period of time ?
> 
> I can think of several - they're all hydro dams.  Just add pumps.

Unfortunately large waterfalls aren't mobile.

:]


Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For anyone looking for an EV, to sell or to trade, I recommend
the free EV for Sale pages. There are pages across the US, but
the ads cover the US no matter where the site is (East cost EVs
on West coast sites, etc.). So, check them all.

Even if you are a newbie and want to 'bone up' on EV terminolgy,
viewing the EV ads, and then studying the EV Album is a jumpb
start on the process.

The links to the EVs for sale can be found on http://eaaev.org
(see the sidebar).

 


=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some think ultra caps would be good for EV racers because 
of their low energy density.

So, then the question is are they affordable and avaialble 
for EV racers to consider?



=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Unfortunately large waterfalls aren't mobile.

Vince

Of coarse they are, it's called global warming, grab a paddle :-)



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 20:20, Vince wrote:
> Lonnie added:
>  
> > Correct.  And only the government can authorize releasing
> > oil from the reserve in times of crisis.
> 
> You guys are confusing "reserves" with the America's "Strategic
> Petroleum Reserve".

You are correct.  I did.

Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I have EV Dash running just fine on my Palm III (serial). Serial cable wires go right into bottom of Palm, no circuits or anything!

Seth


On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 09:52 PM, Rod Hower wrote:

I just checked out the web site http://www.ohler.com/downloads/index.html#EVDash
It has software for PC downloads for EV dash and EV1 Dash.
It also has source code for Metro Works Code Warrior (which I have for the Motorola
MCU's).
Anyhow, I just purchased a Palm M125 and wonder if it works with EVdash?
I'll try it regardless, but I wonder if anybody has before me?
I plan on using it with the E meter on the Dodge TEVan. I would really like to
know how fast the pack on my TEVan is discharging in my garage with just the amateur radio on.
It's been sitting there for 3 weeks because the weather sucks here in Ohio and I won't
drive it in the salt. After about a week of sitting it charges for about 1 hour at 10KW.
Seems like alot for the 180Ahr NiCd pack, but this is what I would like to track more
closely.
How about the interface cable from the Emeter to Palm? I would prefer to build
my own if somebody has the parts list.
Thanks,
Rod
www.qsl.net/w8rnh






--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION

http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The San Jose EAA Chapter welcomes you to another of our regular 
meetings that are held at the San Jose Ried Hillview Airport
terminal bldg. 

Address: 2350 Cunningham Ave., San Jose, CA
More details are on the San Jose EAA web site
 http://geocities.com/sjeaa/

The North SF bay will get the brunt of a windy winter rain 
storm landing Saturday and the South bay will get just wet
enough to confuse drivers (nothing to worry about).

I plan to arrive and charge off 120 VAC while there using my 
PFC-50 charger and Zivan K2 chargers. My EV 
 http://brucedp.150m.com/blazer/
 or http://brucedp.0catch.com/brucedp/
looks forward to dancing in traffic and charging in the rain
(proving EV have not problem operating when wet. Believe it or
 not, there still are public who think that might be an issue).

All EAA chapter meetings are free and open to the the public. 
We generaly have a brief bit of Chapter officer announcents 
and a 'round table' to hear each persons EV activiites and 
interests. Newcomers are welcome, and we are here to answer 
your EV questions.

See you there :-)




=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> >Unfortunately large waterfalls aren't mobile.
> >  
> >
> Of coarse they are, it's called global warming, grab a paddle :-)

HAH !

Yeah, we'll eventually have a lot of new waterfalls in the coastal regions as the 
Antarctic ice sheets continue to melt.


Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I'm trying to pick out a silent, reliable coolant pump for my EV. I plan to install water-cooled NiCads in the Wabbit, so I need a pump to circulate the coolant. A 12 volt pump seemed most logical. Bait well pumps seemed to be the right pressure and flow rate. I would think that they would also have reasonable life and would be able to handle coolant.

The following two pumps seemed to be good candidates:

http://www.tbympl.com/body_attwood03.html

http://www.outfittersparadise.com/b/Bait_Well_Pumps/Rule_Straight_1_Log_Pick_Up_Tube_for_Mounting_to_Seacock_500_GPH_326177.htm

Does anyone have experience with either of these pumps or brands? Silent operation is important to me.




_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- What about these?:
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/PC2500.html

-Sam

On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 10:23 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:

Some think ultra caps would be good for EV racers because
of their low energy density.

So, then the question is are they affordable and avaialble
for EV racers to consider?



=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Fellow Evers, 
   I was on the horn with Ken Koch a couple of days
ago.  He mentioned that he was quite interested in
selling his business (KTA Services).  Now, I've got a
real admiration for Ken, because before I got behind
the wheel of the Rabbit, then again, when I started
adding things onto the Rabbit, and finally now as I
prepare the Civic, the guy is just a fine person to
me.  He always explains things, often in layperson's
terms (a la Lee Hart!)  I'm a bit of a novice, and I
appreciate that.
   My initial reaction was one of concern.  Lots of
people can sell parts.  But Ken has experience and
knowledge.  He specifically told me though, "If you
know of anyone who might be interested in purchasing
the business, please let them know."  
   Well, _you_ are the people I know, some of whom
might have the qualities that have made Ken successful
thus far.  I must say that he's mentioned that
business has been down lately.
  Is anyone else nervous?

=====
Bob Bath, #2 VoltsRabbit; '02 9A mulch. Black & Decker mower 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/239.html   
                      ____ 
                     /__|__\ __  
           =D-------/ -    -   \        
                   'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?    Are 
you saving any gas for your kids?

__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
My aux battery is one year old.  It is dying after 4
days.  The only thing pulling current is the stereo,
but the draw seems high to me: 250 mA when the power
is off (ie, just memorizing presets, and bal/treb/bass
settings).  I've never had this happen before, and no,
I haven't hooked up other stereos to compare _their
draws_. 
   I know this is a starting battery, not a deep
cycle, but I can't do any math w/o finding out Ah. 
Any advice out there? 
Appreciatively, 
 

=====
Bob Bath, #2 VoltsRabbit; '02 9A mulch. Black & Decker mower 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/239.html   
                      ____ 
                     /__|__\ __  
           =D-------/ -    -   \        
                   'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?    Are 
you saving any gas for your kids?

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
At 08:23 PM 12/12/02, you wrote:
Some think ultra caps would be good for EV racers because
of their low energy density.
Actually, that has been the problem in the past, and may still be the problem.

You need both power and energy to propel an EV down the drag strip. Until TMF technology came along, batteries had plenty of energy per kg, but a poor rating in power per kg. The opposite has been true for capacitors. They had plenty of power, but little energy.

Just like batteries, caps keep getting every year. I'm not sure which technology will win out in the end. At the moment, batteries have the upper hand at the track. I have heard rumors that capacitor technology might be closing the gap, however.

Although I have heard rumors of their existence, I have yet to actually hold a capacitor in my hand that had the specific energy needed for drag racing. Until I see it on my lab bench, connected to my test equipment, I won't believe it. However, in the case of the latest advances in supercapacitors, where there smoke, there may actually be plasma. ;^)






So, then the question is are they affordable and avaialble
for EV racers to consider?



=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====

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   _ /|        Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
  \'o.O'     <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
       U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the record, the sticker price on my 1996 NiMH powered Force door was
$89,000!
I don't know how much EVermont actually paid for it.
You can buy it today for 10% of that.
Don Buckshot
Kansas City, MO
816-582-6891

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:02 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV (LONG)
>
>
> On 11 Dec 2002 at 0:51, Doug Martin wrote:
>
> >    As for producing a $40,000 Metro ...
>
> Just to set the record straight, the base price of a Solectria Force was
> around $30-32k for most of the years it was available.  It went a little
> higher, I think about $36k, before Solectria negotiated a glider
> deal with
> GM.  Prior to that they were buying complete Metros and pulling the
> powertrains.  Maybe at that time you could have added some
> options to get to
> $40k or more.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode?  See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV


>       Hi John and All,
>           First, I will be building it, not Selectria.

>From reading your post in the past I though you might have this on your
mind. I know you are not doing this just to make a lot of money or to
impress the world. Your reason's are (don't let me put words in your mouth )
probable because you know how wonderful EV's are and can see how they would
help our world in so many ways.  So why are we not cheering you on ?
I am  .  I hope you keep us posted with you ideas and progress .

.
>          A 4 seat conversion uses 200 to 500whrs/ mile
> where the Sunrise should use about 100/150 whrs/ mile
> from the batts.
>          That means a conversion needs twice as many
> batts, drive for the same performance. No thanks.

For most of us conversion are all we can hope for .  They sure have the
NEV's beat but a car that uses 1/2 the power sure would be nice, not so much
in saving money on electricy but in the extra distance.

.
>         Most will be used to get food, kids, work, ect
> without having to worry if there is enough juice. This
> leads to longer batt life and satified customers, who
> are the ones who count.

This is what most gas cars are being used for


>         No full size EV I will build will be slow
> unless ordered that way for teens, economy, fleet.
>         I'm glad you finally admitted that a ground up
> EV, all else being equal, will perform better because
> it's weight savings. That was Lee's and my point. For
> a cost effective EV eff must be exploited. Dead weight
> costs big bucks in bigger drives, batts, ect.
>        Plus it will cost less for the same
> performance.
>        While your EV's perform very well in some ways,
> for most people a 100+ mile range is nessasary in the
> marketplace. For many your's won't even make it to
> work, much less back home and a couple of side trips.
> You need to be good in all areas, not just speed.

as you know even a 120v 400 amp critus is all the power thats realy
nessasary and in a light car most mons would be able to get there kids to
school and pick up the groeries . What seems to be most important to them is
good air condition . I have more people ask me about that then  what will it
do in the 1/4.

>        I do plan to sub out the composite work so the
> 100EV/year could be done in a 3 bay garage. I'll just
> assemble it from sub-asemblies done by other companies
> when possible.


>        I hope your rant, based on an early prototype,
> against the Sunrise design I will build doesn't keep
> it from happening. People listen to you.

John has a lot of peoples ears and I will say this many of my friends had
told me "steve you need to do somthing about all these wires ect " but after
hearing it from him I started doing somthing about it (I also posted some
remarks that I wish I hadn't as what he said was realy what I needed to
hear, just didn't want to) . I still have a long way to go and when the
pressers on to get somthing done right away things start looking sloppy but
its always on my mind now and before I just didn't see it .


I think there are people  waiting for somthing that is not a conversion
,somthing that they can count on running and not braking down (not that
conversion brake down often but there is not that new car smell) . You could
bring the thrill of EV driving to lots of people, I'm still doing EVTV and
this would be the type of news I'm looking for , I'll send one of my
reporters (that would be me) up there to do a story on you ?. There are two
thing that would realy make my next EV video tape speaceal one your car
company , and two John's Blue Meanie.  For that matter anybody's EV project.
I would  be very happy is see your car at  my next EV rally .  any chance
this april of seeing one ?

Steve Clunn



>        I did like the part where you said I should do
> only what you agreed with!!!
>                 Lovingly yours,
>                     Jerry Dycus




>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Ha! Nice scene JB! However, being an engineer I can tell you that a good
one would not stick his/her own hand out if unsure of the environment.
The proper tool for the job would be a 12" dial caliper opened up to 4"
or so (100mm Victor) and a quick downward stab into the heart of the
loaf. Or use someone else's hand if the above tool is unavailable or out
of reach.

But seriously, most products are not defined by engineers. The
functional requirements and physical form are given to the engineers at
the START of the engineering phase. These come from various sources
depending on the industry; industrial designers, marketing, or even the
executives, the people who receive input from the customers, i.e., the
market, regarding what needs exist and hopefully back it up with some
research (yes I'm an optimist). The specs and requirements are already
laid out and prioritized. Not all companies work this way, but it is the
standard corporate way.

After that it's up to the engineers to hose it up the best way they know
how.

It is really hard to make it a two-way street, for engineering and
marketing to adequately inform each other, to get the right balance of
intuition and practicality, because it is also the standard corporate
way for Marketing and Engineering to wish each other dead.

Thankfully, when an individual embarks on a personal project for
personal satisfaction (such as a home EV conversion), "management" and
"marketing" and "engineering" and "manufacturing" and the "customer" and
"field service" are the same person - life gets a lot simpler. Total
accountability.

Now it's time to subject you to a quote that comes to mind. Sorry if
it's OT, but I'm too tired to refine the train (speaking of Engineers)
of thought;

"When you make a thing, a thing that is new,
It is so complicated making it, that it is bound to be ugly.
But those that make it after you,
They don't have to worry about making it.
And they can make it pretty, and so everybody can like it
When the others make it after you."
     by Picasso (as quoted by Gertrude Stein) 

- GT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Bryan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:58 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: OT: more substance, tone down the style
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew wrote:
> 
> > He starts out well enough:
> 
> Then says:
> 
> > > I'd probably keep the engineers in small guarded
> > > rooms with a slot in the locked door where food goes in 
> and designs 
> > > come out, and never, ever, let them roam with a free 
> reign...never 
> > > let them talk to the public :-)
> > 
> > This is the part that really bothers me.
> 
>       Although I can see how engineers might be offended by 
> these comments, it was clear to me that John was joking here, 
> hence the smiley at the end. Compare this part to the many 
> good points made earlier and it becomes very clear. I loved 
> this part and can still see the visuals that it inspired on 
> the first read.
> 
> ...........................
> 
>       A huge, heavy metal door, with iron straps running across
> held on with giant rivets. A guard, standing with a loaded 
> rifle, at attention to each side of the door. John places a 
> small, steaming hot, fresh baked loaf of bread that he just 
> brought straight from the company kitchen, on the platform 
> just below the slot before 
> retreating to a safe distance. The slot opens, and a hand very 
> tentatively reaches out and snatches the loaf of bread. Then after 
> the engineer peers through the slot, with eyes darting nervously from 
> side to side, a stack of designs appear on the shelf and the 
> slot slams closed. John picks up the stack of designs, and 
> pawing his beard thoughtfully, says: "Oh, this is brilliant! 
> Just what I was looking for, thanks Bill!" Of course, Bill 
> could be anyone, but I think there might be one Bill in 
> particular that John might have been needling for some fun 
> and laugh. :^D
> 
> Seeya,
> JB
> 
--- End Message ---

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