EV Digest 2476
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV (LONG)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Caps instead of batts
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Caps instead of batts
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Coolant pump choice?
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Coolant pump choice?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Group 45 Ah equivalent: stereo current draws
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Coolant pump choice?
by Jeremy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: KTA Services info.
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Moving A Rabbit
by "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) EVA/DC Annual Holiday Bash Tuesday December 17!!
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV (LONG)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) OT backup battery system
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV (LONG)
by "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Life as a Development Engineer (long)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
How far do you need to go>? Here is another thing to think about ., If 40
miles is going to be 90% of your driving that carring around 24 golf cart
bats so you can drive another 60 miles once in a while may not be the best
idea.
I have often though that the Neon would make a good conversion( but I think
that about 1/2 the cars I see )
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ev (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
> Listers,
> I have a 98 Dodge Neon that is paid off and have been toying with
> the idea if converting. I've been told that it's not an ideal body to use
> because I can't just stuff it with batteries to give it as long of a range
> as possible. I would love to use a small truck but I need four seats for
the
> rug-rats. I would like to try to use more than 120v of 6v golf cart
> batteries (my goal is 144v) but I'm not sure(along with others on the list
> on the list that have advised me in the past) that my car could handle it.
> Does anyone know of beefier suspension components that would readily
install
> in a Neon? Do I need to beef up the frame too? Thanks for any advice.
>
> John David
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's what I call a markdown. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:17 PM
Subject: RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV (LONG)
> For the record, the sticker price on my 1996 NiMH powered Force door was
> $89,000!
> I don't know how much EVermont actually paid for it.
> You can buy it today for 10% of that.
> Don Buckshot
> Kansas City, MO
> 816-582-6891
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> > Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:02 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV (LONG)
> >
> >
> > On 11 Dec 2002 at 0:51, Doug Martin wrote:
> >
> > > As for producing a $40,000 Metro ...
> >
> > Just to set the record straight, the base price of a Solectria Force was
> > around $30-32k for most of the years it was available. It went a little
> > higher, I think about $36k, before Solectria negotiated a glider
> > deal with
> > GM. Prior to that they were buying complete Metros and pulling the
> > powertrains. Maybe at that time you could have added some
> > options to get to
> > $40k or more.
> >
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"I rarely read posts about ultra-caps because
they can store little power....."
A whr (Whr) is energy like BTUs of gasolene or mass * height * 32.17
The cap can store and deliver huge power for a second, little energy.
"While they can charge/discharge fast to handle
very high peak loads, they are useless for anything
else like an EV."
They can discharge fast and if inserted in the hot lead to the motor,
would increase the Power of the system for a short time without a high
drain on the battery. This would be a 'nitrous' boost for a puny low
Voltage pack.
"Also they need special power electronics in
order to get all the power they do store because the
voltage goes down to 0 to get all the power. This is
expensive."
It would not be useful to discharge below 1/2 full Voltage. Insert the
Cap in series with the supply from the battery for the few seconds
needed to go from 3000 to 5000 rpm
"For those who may want to use this, Selectria
makes electronics, buck/ boost, for it. But ultra caps
are so much money for so little power, so much weight,
it's not worth it for any but gov type $."
They are much lighter than batteries / cubic foot. Cost is still high.
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, wait for 10Wh per kg or thereabouts. I also hear that TMF cells or
something like them will be available soon.
Seth
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
>
> At 08:23 PM 12/12/02, you wrote:
> >Some think ultra caps would be good for EV racers because
> >of their low energy density.
>
> Actually, that has been the problem in the past, and may still be
> the problem.
>
> You need both power and energy to propel an EV down the drag
> strip. Until TMF technology came along, batteries had plenty of energy per
> kg, but a poor rating in power per kg. The opposite has been true for
> capacitors. They had plenty of power, but little energy.
>
> Just like batteries, caps keep getting every year. I'm not sure
> which technology will win out in the end. At the moment, batteries have the
> upper hand at the track. I have heard rumors that capacitor technology
> might be closing the gap, however.
>
> Although I have heard rumors of their existence, I have yet to
> actually hold a capacitor in my hand that had the specific energy needed
> for drag racing. Until I see it on my lab bench, connected to my test
> equipment, I won't believe it. However, in the case of the latest advances
> in supercapacitors, where there smoke, there may actually be plasma. ;^)
>
> >So, then the question is are they affordable and avaialble
> >for EV racers to consider?
> >
> >
> >
> >=====
> >' ____
> >~/__|o\__
> >'@----- @'---(=
> >. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> >. EV List Editor & RE newswires
> >. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
> >=====
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Out of curiosity, are you getting Saft 100Ah modules or something different?
Seth
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
>
> I'm trying to pick out a silent, reliable coolant pump for my EV. I plan to
> install water-cooled NiCads in the Wabbit, so I need a pump to circulate
> the coolant. A 12 volt pump seemed most logical. Bait well pumps seemed to
> be the right pressure and flow rate. I would think that they would also
> have reasonable life and would be able to handle coolant.
>
> The following two pumps seemed to be good candidates:
>
> http://www.tbympl.com/body_attwood03.html
>
>
>http://www.outfittersparadise.com/b/Bait_Well_Pumps/Rule_Straight_1_Log_Pick_Up_Tube_for_Mounting_to_Seacock_500_GPH_326177.htm
>
> Does anyone have experience with either of these pumps or brands?
> Silent operation is important to me.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> I plan to install water-cooled NiCads in the Wabbit
Are these the SAFT MRE's? If so, do you have a source of them other than
new/list price from SAFT? Or did you find some surplus water-cooled ones
made by someone else?
I'm in slow motion discussions with SAFT for a pack for my truck so this
is very timely.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Somehow 250mA sounds high (not that I've checked other radios, but I
would have guessed more like a 1/10 of that). But if that is the load,
after 4 days, that would mean 24 Ahrs had been used from the battery. If
you regularly leave the car sitting for say a week at a time it would
have a number of deep cycles on it by now. What is your charging method?
Bob Bath wrote:
> My aux battery is one year old. It is dying after 4
> days. The only thing pulling current is the stereo,
> but the draw seems high to me: 250 mA when the power
> is off (ie, just memorizing presets, and bal/treb/bass
> settings). I've never had this happen before, and no,
> I haven't hooked up other stereos to compare _their
> draws_.
> I know this is a starting battery, not a deep
> cycle, but I can't do any math w/o finding out Ah.
> Any advice out there?
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about this pump:
http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/jabsco.html
I was thinking of getting one of these for the coolant pump for my
t-rex...
They are used as a coolant pump for the heat for a mercedes (I think)
-Jeremy
On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 11:28 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I'm trying to pick out a silent, reliable coolant pump for my EV. I
plan to install water-cooled NiCads in the Wabbit, so I need a pump to
circulate the coolant. A 12 volt pump seemed most logical. Bait well
pumps seemed to be the right pressure and flow rate. I would think
that they would also have reasonable life and would be able to handle
coolant.
The following two pumps seemed to be good candidates:
http://www.tbympl.com/body_attwood03.html
http://www.outfittersparadise.com/b/Bait_Well_Pumps/
Rule_Straight_1_Log_Pick_Up_Tube_for_Mounting_to_Seacock_500_GPH_326177
.htm
Does anyone have experience with either of these pumps or
brands? Silent operation is important to me.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve and All,
--- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
>
>
> > Hi John and All,
> > First, I will be building it, not
> Selectria.
>
> >From reading your post in the past I though you
> might have this on your
> mind. I know you are not doing this just to make a
> lot of money or to
> impress the world.
It's for both money, less pollution, national
security, helping people by getting us ready for the
coming end of the oil era.
With China, the rest of the world coming into the
industral world pressure on oil reserves is close to
the breaking point.
The US has less than 10% of it's reserves left.
We are only discovering 1 barrel of oil for every 2
used. Anyone whp thinks this can last isn't real
smart.
The US reached it peak production in 1970 and the
world will in about 2008/9.
The older of us remember what the 1973 energy
crisis did to the economy until we adapted ourselves
to higher energy costs. This took about 8 years to get
somewhere near normal.
Between 2008/12 this will happen again.
When this happens Those selling EV's will be well
placed to really profit.
>Your reason's are (don't let me
> put words in your mouth )
> probable because you know how wonderful EV's are and
> can see how they would
> help our world in so many ways.
Yes, also.
> So why are we not
> cheering you on ?
> I am . I hope you keep us posted with you ideas
> and progress .
Most are, only a vocal few are not and when they
see it they will be too.
BTW Steve lives farther from me than Boston/NY.
We both are only using EV's so it's hard to get
together. Fla is a really long state.
>
> .
> > A 4 seat conversion uses 200 to 500whrs/
> mile
> > where the Sunrise should use about 100/150 whrs/
> mile
> > from the batts.
> > That means a conversion needs twice as
> many
> > batts, drive for the same performance. No thanks.
>
> For most of us conversion are all we can hope for .
> They sure have the
> NEV's beat but a car that uses 1/2 the power sure
> would be nice, not so much
> in saving money on electricy but in the extra
> distance.
>
> .
> > Most will be used to get food, kids, work,
> ect
> > without having to worry if there is enough juice.
> This
> > leads to longer batt life and satified customers,
> who
> > are the ones who count.
>
> This is what most gas cars are being used for
While showing off in EV's gets attention, it's
the ability to do the things need in life like
shopping, commuting that an EV needs to do well with
enough range that it is rarely tested, worried
about(150miles) and batts that last the
lifetime(20yrs) of the EV is needed to make EV's
successful to the non-EV public. The Sunrise does that
with ni-cads.
>
>
> > You need to be good in all areas, not just speed.
>
> as you know even a 120v 400 amp critus is all the
> power thats realy
> nessasary and in a light car most mons would be able
> to get there kids to
> school and pick up the groeries . What seems to be
> most important to them is
> good air condition . I have more people ask me about
> that then what will it
> do in the 1/4.
A better quality controller than a Curtis is
needed. The first 100 will use upgraded Selectria EV
parts because the customers want it. And when asking
$45/55k you give them what they want.
>
> I think there are people waiting for somthing that
> is not a conversion
> ,somthing that they can count on running and not
> breaking down (not that
> conversion break down often but there is not that
> new car smell) . You could
> bring the thrill of EV driving to lots of people,
> I'm still doing EVTV and
> this would be the type of news I'm looking for ,
Let's hope so but it's a long row to hoe. Fisrt I
need 100 orders to make it work. We'll see if that can
be done.
> I'll send one of my
> reporters (that would be me) up there to do a story
> on you ?. There are two
> thing that would realy make my next EV video tape
> speaceal one your car
> company , and two John's Blue Meanie. For that
> matter anybody's EV project.
> I would be very happy is see your car at my next
> EV rally . any chance
> this april of seeing one ?
It will be a while, 6 months at least just to get
to where we are building the production line. And it
well be in Mass or RI anyway. You build close to your
suppliers which are in those states.
The nice thing about the Sunrise is it's already
speced out down to the doorhandles. Saves much time.
And yes it will have AC/ heat pump.
Thanks,
Jery Dycus
>
> Steve Clunn
>
>
>
> > I did like the part where you said I should
> do
> > only what you agreed with!!!
> > Lovingly yours,
> > Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to echo Bob's feelings regarding Ken. Ken helped me a lot during my
rebuild. His breadth and depth of knowledge of EV's impressed me greatly.
Every time I called, he took pains not just to sell me a part, but to make
sure that I got what I really needed. His explanations helped me to figure
out when I needed something different, or maybe didn't need something at all
in that instance. He also took care to mention if there was a quality used
part available instead of a new one, and gave me great deals on them. And
his suggestions for how to do/build/wire/install things undoubtedly saved me
a lot of back pains.
Do you know for sure if he is wanting to sell because business has been bad,
or for other reasons? Is there anything we could do to help?
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Bath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 10:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: KTA Services info.
Hi Fellow Evers,
I was on the horn with Ken Koch a couple of days
ago. He mentioned that he was quite interested in
selling his business (KTA Services). Now, I've got a
real admiration for Ken, because before I got behind
the wheel of the Rabbit, then again, when I started
adding things onto the Rabbit, and finally now as I
prepare the Civic, the guy is just a fine person to
me. He always explains things, often in layperson's
terms (a la Lee Hart!) I'm a bit of a novice, and I
appreciate that.
My initial reaction was one of concern. Lots of
people can sell parts. But Ken has experience and
knowledge. He specifically told me though, "If you
know of anyone who might be interested in purchasing
the business, please let them know."
Well, _you_ are the people I know, some of whom
might have the qualities that have made Ken successful
thus far. I must say that he's mentioned that
business has been down lately.
Is anyone else nervous?
=====
Bob Bath, #2 VoltsRabbit; '02 9A mulch. Black & Decker mower
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/239.html
____
/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
IMPORTANT - THIS MESSAGE (INCLUDING ANY ATTACHMENTS) IS INTENDED ONLY FOR
THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY TO WHICH IT IS ADDRESSED, AND MAY
CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL AND EXEMPT FROM
DISCLOSURE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU
SHOULD DELETE THIS MESSAGE IMMEDIATELY AND YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY
READING, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE, OR THE
TAKING OF ANY ACTION BASED ON IT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. THANK YOU.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fellow listers,
I am trying to arrange to move a EV Rabbit glider from Oregon to Missouri.
My question is: Does anyone on this list know how to get it here cheap?
Perhaps someone would be planning a trip to the Midwest from that area in
the next month or two and be willing to tow it in this direction for a small
fee? I just can't work out driving that far west to pick it up and the
trucking cost would be $850 or more. Again it is just a glider.
Any suggestions, anyone?
Don Buckshot
Kansas City, MO
816-582-6891
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Evlist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
> On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 21:35, Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
> > Unless I'm entirely mistaken, the reserve is how much oil we have on
> > hand that has already been pumped out of the ground.
>
> Correct. And only the government can authorize releasing oil from the
> reserve in times of crisis.
>
> Hi All;
But the issue EVerybody sidesteps here is, in my book. Pumping all the
burned oil into the AIR, DAMN it! They don't see that end of it. It isn't
really that inportant, WHERE it comes from, it is being dumped into that few
mile thick atmosphere that we NEED to exist on Earth. I have sorta gotten
used to breathing, hope to be able to enjoy this privilidge as long as I
need it, in this life. I hope the hell that the oil runs out for that
reason, more than any other. This would force meaningful research and
development to other, cleaner things.
INHO
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear EVA/DC Members and Friends,
I invite you to join us this Tuesday night, December 17th at 7:00 p.m. for
EVA/DC's annual Holiday Bash and Meeting at Takoma Village Community Center,
very near the Takoma Park Metro in Washington, DC. Street parking
available.
The Holiday Bash will include a menu featuring Rob Neighbour's famous Veggie
Lasagna and salad. We will also have chicken wings, sinful deserts,
sparkling wines (both with and without alcohol) and of course, our
traditional EV Toast to the New Year.
Younger EVers are invited to attend since we will have a variety of EV
related activities including our Solar Slot cars, mini remote control car
races, and some Klutz solar powered cars.
For the bigger EVers we will have some bigger toys including electric
scooters courtesy of SkooterCommuter (www.scootercommuter.com). We will also
have a Ride-and-Drive featuring an EV or two and Toyota Priuses courtesy of
TVC residents Bob Auerbach and Eric and Betsey Mendelsohn.
Special thanks to all our volunteers who are helping to plan this EVent in
my absence, while I attend the Electric Transportation Industry Conference
(ETIC) in Florida. During the party we will have an update on the ETIC, the
recent CARB meeting as well as information on upcoming activties for the New
Year including the National Junior Solar Sprints, the fun-in-the-sun Tour
de Arizona, the 2nd EVer EAA Chapters Conference, the Solar Decathlon, The
Power of DC NEDRA Drag Race and the Tour de Sol's return to DC.
For more information visit our homepage at http://www.evadc.org
Regards and Happy Holidays,
Dave Goldstein
EVA/DC President
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.evadc.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Dec 2002 at 17:49, Shelton, John D. AW2 wrote:
> I would like to try to use more than 120v of 6v golf cart batteries
> (my goal is 144v) but I'm not sure(along with others on the list on the list
> that have advised me in the past) that my car could handle it.
With 6v golf car batteries, the practical limit in a small car is about 108
volts. After that it gets real challenging to keep the handling safe with
all that extra mass, often laid out fairly high in the chassis. Even if you
beef up the springs, driving it still feels rather like riding a bike with a
25lb backpack on.
You can get 144 volts with 8 volt golf car batteries at a more-or-less
manageable mass. They won't last as long as the 6-volters, making the per-
mile cost higher, but they'll stand up significantly longer than the usual
12v flooded marine batteries.
Or go with the lower voltage. In spite of what some people on this list
say, you ^can^ make a very capable and practical conversion at 96 or 108
volts, providing you use a suitable motor, controller, and gearing.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Dec 2002 at 13:16, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> I'm
> going to break the pack up and sell individual batteries. $80 each.
No offense, John, but that might be a bit high for used batteries. Isn't
$80 what John Wayland used to charge for ^new^ Optima YT factory seconds?
Or was it $85? (I don't know if they're even available any more. But I'm
sure you see what I'm driving at.)
If I lived nearby, I might pay $20 each for these. Of course others might
be willing to pay more, but that's what they'd be worth to me.
The reason is that they have only 85% of their capacity remaining.
Ordinarily, a battery is defined as fully depreciated when its capacity
drops to 80% of specs. So yours are close to the end of their useful lives.
Again, no offense meant; this is just in the interest of perspective.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:14 PM 12/13/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) stated:
If I lived nearby, I might pay $20 each for these. Of course others might
be willing to pay more, but that's what they'd be worth to me.
heck, if that's all they are worth, then there won't be any point in
selling them. Not even worth my labor to carry them out of the shop.
If I can't sell them for something worthwhile, I'll just use them as
starting batteries, or as UPS batteries since they are still quite good.
Sure seems like somebody with a damaged/dead YT would rather pay $80 for a
useable replacement rather than $172 for a new one. I know that there are
people who use them long after they've dropped below 80% capacity!
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Dec 2002 at 23:17, Don Buckshot wrote:
> For the record, the sticker price on my 1996 NiMH powered Force door was
> $89,000!
By 1999, the price for Ovonics 12v 85ah modules had come down to "only"
$2,200 each; so, about $2,150 per kwh. What's your pack's kwh rating?
Might be just about right. Ovonics have never been cheap -- or even
affordable.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 13 Dec 2002 at 10:23, John Lussmyer wrote:
> I'll just use them as
> starting batteries, or as UPS batteries since they are still quite good.
This is the way to go. A lot of the folks who own Elec-traks feed their
tractors the leftovers from their road EVs, for example. Put them in a
lower stress application, and you can get extra life out of them.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Those of you who follow the news/weather will have heard about (or been
caught in) the massive Ice storm that left over 2 million people in NC/SC
without power.
My School was without power for about 5 days. The powers that be here want
us to try and put together a battery backup system that will keep our
Servers, phones, and alarm systems on long term battery backup (say at least
48 hours).
Right now, we only have "standard" ups power which is generally exhausted in
anywhere from 7 minutes to 1/2 hour (depending on which battery bank it is
on).
I'm trying to get an estimate of how much power we need to provide and the
other specs, but if any of you folks with off grid systems would be willing
to help me design and purchase a system I'd appreciate it.
Just FYI according to a few back of the envelope calcs I did, we are going
to need a system to provide somewhere between 2 and 3 kw for 48 hours.
Looks like I'll be building a new outbuilding just for the bats...
Thanks in advance,
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of John Lussmyer
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 1:24 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
At 01:14 PM 12/13/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) stated:
>If I lived nearby, I might pay $20 each for these. Of course others might
>be willing to pay more, but that's what they'd be worth to me.
heck, if that's all they are worth, then there won't be any point in
selling them. Not even worth my labor to carry them out of the shop.
If I can't sell them for something worthwhile, I'll just use them as
starting batteries, or as UPS batteries since they are still quite good.
Sure seems like somebody with a damaged/dead YT would rather pay $80 for a
useable replacement rather than $172 for a new one. I know that there are
people who use them long after they've dropped below 80% capacity!
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My recent experience in the past month with Texaco Ovonics is their quote
for the modules in my car at $1000 each!
The Solectria literature says I have a 42kW pack.
Don
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
> Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV (LONG)
>
>
> On 12 Dec 2002 at 23:17, Don Buckshot wrote:
>
> > For the record, the sticker price on my 1996 NiMH powered Force door was
> > $89,000!
>
> By 1999, the price for Ovonics 12v 85ah modules had come down to "only"
> $2,200 each; so, about $2,150 per kwh. What's your pack's kwh rating?
> Might be just about right. Ovonics have never been cheap -- or even
> affordable.
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Battery weight is a major issue in keeping a vehicle light but with enough
range to make the vehicle practical.
I have a solution for this.
Tow a trailer. I have designed a great battery trailer, with specks that a
small car can handle. The extra weight is on the trailer and not on the
car.
Trailer weight 1700lbs.
24 6volt batts
breakaway axle breaks
breakaway power disconnect (still perfecting)
relatively small,(pulled similar behind a 914)
Modification to vehicle ~$150
Perko keyed transfer switch
power socket in the rear of vehicle
Class 1 hitch ~$100
When driving local (20-30 miles) uses light weight in car batteries
When extending range (50-70 miles) attach trailer and take a ride.
http://www.draw-tite.com/products/products/tow_hitch_class1.shtml provides
the hitch
http://www.perko.com/cgi-bin/perko.pl?dis+8603-battery_selector_switches_inf
o provides the switch
Just an option, I know some people are "afraid" of a trailer. DO NOT BE!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
> On 11 Dec 2002 at 17:49, Shelton, John D. AW2 wrote:
>
> > I would like to try to use more than 120v of 6v golf cart batteries
> > (my goal is 144v) but I'm not sure(along with others on the list on the
list
> > that have advised me in the past) that my car could handle it.
>
> With 6v golf car batteries, the practical limit in a small car is about
108
> volts. After that it gets real challenging to keep the handling safe with
> all that extra mass, often laid out fairly high in the chassis. Even if
you
> beef up the springs, driving it still feels rather like riding a bike with
a
> 25lb backpack on.
>
> You can get 144 volts with 8 volt golf car batteries at a more-or-less
> manageable mass. They won't last as long as the 6-volters, making the
per-
> mile cost higher, but they'll stand up significantly longer than the usual
> 12v flooded marine batteries.
>
> Or go with the lower voltage. In spite of what some people on this list
> say, you ^can^ make a very capable and practical conversion at 96 or 108
> volts, providing you use a suitable motor, controller, and gearing.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, why don't you keep and use the Optimas until your new batteries
arrive and you're ready to install them? I suspect that you
will have trouble finding people willing to pay much more than the
$20 David offered.
Yes, I know your commute is 26.4 miles and the Optimas won't go
that far. But isn't there anything else you can use your Sparrow for?
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
> At 01:14 PM 12/13/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) stated:
> >If I lived nearby, I might pay $20 each for these. Of course others
might
> >be willing to pay more, but that's what they'd be worth to me.
>
> heck, if that's all they are worth, then there won't be any point in
> selling them. Not even worth my labor to carry them out of the shop.
> If I can't sell them for something worthwhile, I'll just use them as
> starting batteries, or as UPS batteries since they are still quite good.
>
> Sure seems like somebody with a damaged/dead YT would rather pay $80 for a
> useable replacement rather than $172 for a new one. I know that there are
> people who use them long after they've dropped below 80% capacity!
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:17 AM 12/13/2002 -0800, Thomas Shay stated:
Yes, I know your commute is 26.4 miles and the Optimas won't go
that far. But isn't there anything else you can use your Sparrow for?
Not really. The very few other trips I make are:
A) To the grocery store - and I need more than 1 bag of groceries.
B) Long distance.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure seems like somebody with a damaged/dead YT would rather pay $80
for a useable replacement rather than $172 for a new one. I know
that there are people who use them long after they've dropped below
80% capacity!
Does anyone pay retail for a YT?
I see them on the web for $130, and heard that Costco has them for
$106. (Blue tops).
The other issue is that once they drop to 80% capacity, it does not
mean they have 80% of their life left. It's a faster fall to 60% etc.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Zilla "Got Amps" Shirts now available online.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Costco has Red tops for low $100s, but still their Blue tops (deep cycle)
are more like $140+. Only know of special distributer deals for deep cycle
Optimas for about $115/ea. Are you aware of any less expensive sources?
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Otmar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 11:26 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
>Sure seems like somebody with a damaged/dead YT would rather pay $80
>for a useable replacement rather than $172 for a new one. I know
>that there are people who use them long after they've dropped below
>80% capacity!
Does anyone pay retail for a YT?
I see them on the web for $130, and heard that Costco has them for
$106. (Blue tops).
The other issue is that once they drop to 80% capacity, it does not
mean they have 80% of their life left. It's a faster fall to 60% etc.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Zilla "Got Amps" Shirts now available online.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:25 AM 12/13/2002 -0800, Otmar stated:
Does anyone pay retail for a YT?
I see them on the web for $130,
Yeah, now add in shipping.
and heard that Costco has them for $106. (Blue tops).
A Blue top isn't a Yellow top.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now that the dust has settled a bit, it occurred to me that some of the
flap over engineers and what they do might have come from a simple lack
of understanding. Most of us can relate to putting our own cars
together in our own garages for our own satisfaction. Most of us want
to do a good job at it.
But only those who work as development engineers can fully appreciate
how a manufactured product gets from concept to reality. Many different
non-engineers are involved, from providing necessary input to approving
the final result, but it is the development engineers who make it
happen.
Commercially available products are like laws and sausage. Everybody
wants them, but the process that makes them isn't pretty. As a
development engineer myself (not in the automotive industry), I hope I
can offer some insight. I think it's important since, with any luck,
EVs will eventually leave the realm of the home builder and become
readily available to the public at large. That will require engineers,
with skills different from most hobbyists. Note that the definition of
"engineer" relies more on mindset and approach than education.
If you think we're a bunch of nerds in crisp white lab coats holding
clipboards, and that we spend our days debating which are the proper
equations to use, please read on. I've put together some pure
speculation on how the Sunrise project might have progressed. It's
based on unrelated but relevant experience. I've made little attempt to
be true to actual facts, dates or events. I use the Sunrise project as
a basis for this fictional tale only because it's fresh in our minds.
Even though it's fiction, as a whole I think it's a far more plausible
description of what happened than others we've seen recently.
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
Our story begins many months before EVS 14:
Project Engineer: You know this thing is going to be really slow with
that puny drive in it, don't you?
Engineering Manager: Yeah, I know. But it'll be fast enough for the
distance run and the efficiency is about the same. It won't matter at
all at EVS as long as it looks OK. I'm not confident the bigger drive
has all its bugs worked out yet, and XYZ Foundries still hasn't fixed
the casting for the larger motor. I think we're better off avoiding
surprises by using the smaller drive.
PE: Well, I can't argue with that. The body guys are driving me nuts
with all the changes coming out of the crash testing. We've had to move
the inverter four times so far! It's a damn good thing the inverter for
the larger drive uses the same enclosure. By the way, are they ever
going to make the body look better than a squashed grape?
EM: Right now they only care about what works in the wind tunnel. And
yes, I know the molds look worse every time they hack them up, but those
molds are all we have for aero mock-ups. Once they've settled on a
final shape, I'll try to have the molds re-done by an outside vendor.
You have to remember though, that we aren't going to manufacture this
car. The stylists at whatever manufacturer picks it up are certainly
not going to keep their hands off the shape. Why put any effort into it
if they're just going to change it?
***** Fast Forward *****
Four weeks before EVS 14:
Marketing Guy: Hey, how's the project coming? Are you guys going to be
ready for the big show?
EM: I think so. There are a few minor things to straighten out, but we
should be OK. We never got a chance to install the larger drive, but
that shouldn't be an issue for you. We still need to clean up the
interior. It's a good thing no one will be able to get too close to it
at the show.
MG: [averting his eyes] Uh, didn't you hear? The Marketing manager
thought we'd make a bigger splash by putting the car in the Ride and
Drive. The public is going to be all over it and driving it for a whole
day.
EM: WHAT!?!?! The last WE heard, it was going to be roped off in a
static display! HAVE YOU SEEN THE CAR!?!?! Half the interior is bare
fiberglass! The other half is covered with foam, vinyl and glue! We
can't show it like that! As far as driving is concerned, it's slow as
molasses and rides like a truck. The chassis guys never got a chance to
isolate the suspension because the body guys are STILL playing with the
supporting structure. I'm telling you, putting the car in the Ride and
Drive is a Big Mistake!
MG: Ummm, sorry, but it's a done deal. The president approved it and
we just made the deadline for submission. It's already in the show
program. Uh, gotta go. Let me know how it turns out, OK?
*** Short interlude while EM suppresses the urge to kill ***
Calls PE into his office.
EM: We've had a fairly major change in plans. The car is entered in
the Ride and Drive at the show.
PE: [deadpan expression] You're not kidding, are you?
EM: I wish I was.
PE: [eyes glaze as he quickly estimates what this means] Oh, man.
This won't be easy. [thinks some more] Actually, I can sum it up
pretty easily. Remember how we painted the car with spray cans to get
the press release photos out in time?
EM: Yeah, the art department wasn't happy with all the retouching they
needed. And I was thinking the same thing - we won't have time to get
it painted now, will we?.
PE: Nope. We still have lots of wiring to finish and the heater to
install, which weren't needed for the show before. Now they are. And a
presentable interior as well. Here's what I'm thinking. We have a tech
who can make spray paint look surprisingly good. I can get him to clean
up the outside while two more guys dress up the interior. (That will be
the tougher job.) We'll have a lot of people getting in each others'
way, but I think we can pull it off. Of course you do realize what this
will do to the project schedule? It sure would be nice to get back to
doing real engineering work.
EM: I know, but we have no choice at this point. Let's get moving.
***** Fast Forward *****
EVS 14 Ride and Drive
Junior Engineer 1: I'm amazed. This thing looks like a real car!
JE2: Well, yeah, if you don't get too close. But you're right, it's
better than I would have expected.
JE1: Has anybody said anything about the finish?
JE2: A few minor comments. Most are more interested in the overall
concept.
JE1: [looking up at the next driver approaching] Hey, check out the
dude with the beard. Do you think he's Somebody?
JE2: You never know. Any one of these guys could decide to produce the
car.
JE1: Good luck! [walks off]
[driver walks up]
JW: Hi, I'm John Wayland ....
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
Again, the story above is pure fiction. Based loosely on fact - similar
events have happened to me over and over again. It is not intended as a
rebuttal to John, only to give a feel for what it takes to get a product
released, and what a royal pain it is to have a show interrupt a
project. Note that the Marketing guys are seemingly portrayed here as
the bad guys, but their decision might very well have been the best one
for the company.
One thing that I hope leaps out at everyone is the fact that if you're
dealing with an organization, even a small one, coordination of efforts
is a monumental task. This is extremely important for small-time
operators to understand. Life is easy for a hobbyist working by
himself, satisfying only himself. Rick Woodbury's organization is tiny,
and I'll bet he has some tales to tell that would curl your hair.
What you see is not necessarily the whole story.
Chris
--- End Message ---
