EV Digest 2486
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Load-Sensing Transfer Switch for 2 Chargers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery Charger for Nickel Zinc
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: SAFT NICAD charging
by "Wallace, Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery Charger for Nickel Zinc
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery Charger for Nickel Zinc
by Eric Penne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Nissan Super Cap
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Ge motor issue
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Free Tech Paper "Do It Right The First Time"
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) I Can't Wait!
by William Judy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by Jim Dempsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: I Can't Wait!
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) CARB Workshop Bulls*it.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: SAFT NICAD charging
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Current-sensing
by "Tom Dowling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Bush to California: Choke on this
by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Pump up the Jam : drag eats ahs
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Marvin Campbell wrote:
> Since the TOU meter's "sidesaddle" mounting ring (which is attached
> under our existing meter) is only rated for 60 amps we can't charge
> two cars simultaneously.
So, did they route it through a 60 amp breaker? 240vac at 60 amps is
14.4 kw. Do you even have two chargers that can each draw 30 amps?
That's a BIG charger!
Even if you do, they are going to complete their bulk charge (high
current) phase very quickly -- in an hour or less. All that you need to
do is stagger their starting times by about an hour, and they will never
exceed 60 amps for both of them.
> I would use a timer and separate circuit but we only have one circuit
> for the TOU meter with two chargers using it.
Are your chargers cord-connected, or permanently wired in? Just as with
ordinary 120vac 15amp circuits, you can plug more than one
cord-connected device into a 240vac outlet (using outlet strips,
extension cords, etc.). The circuit breaker ultimately determines how
many things you can have on at one time. So, you have a lot more
flexibility if you make your chargers cord-connected. Then you can buy
off-the-shelf timers to control each charger's turn-on and turn-off
times.
If they are hard-wired, an electrician will have to install the timer.
They are still available (for controlling outdoor lighting, for example)
but will cost more both to buy and to install. All you should have to do
is set one charger to come on an hour or so after the other to avoid
them both being at full power at the same time.
> Someone mentioned to me a mechanical load-sensing switch that, after
> first charge tapers off, would then switch over to second charger
> automatically. What would be the simplest means by which to achieve
> this end?
A current relay does this. It basically has a coil that the load current
passes through, and contacts to switch a big contactor that actually
transfers the load between two devices. They are also off-the-shelf
items, but will probably cost you more that timers.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I had looked at that charger earlier. But while it looks very capable
of being de-tuned to the smaller amp requirements, it is still too larger
for on-board use on a Motorcycle. Though it is interesting that on
EVParts.com the shipping weight is only 15.5 lbs, while the charger is
listed at 20 lbs.
And the price is about 3 times what I would like to spend. If I stick to
48V, then I am looking at $200+ for a charger.
At 09:40 AM 12/17/2002, you wrote:
>I am planning on a EV conversion of a Motorcycle and leaning toward a 160V
>system using Evercel Nickel Zinc batteries, due to size and weight. But I
>am wondering if anyone has any recommendations on a charger that would suit
>the 10Ah cells that would fit this application.
>
>Would love to have it an onboard charger, but given the voltage, I would
>expect most chargers to run off of 230V AC (which prevents easy plugin in
>many places). But if the added cost of a 120V system is reasonable, I
>would be interested.
>
>Any thoughts?
Sounds like a job for Rich Rudman's PFC charger.
It will charge a 160V pack from either 120V or 240V, whatever you find
available. Actually it's supposed to work on any input voltage from 60V to
250V AC and can output anything from 12V to 360V.
It's a relatively small charger, from their website: "The PFC20 weighs 20
pounds and resides in a box that is 13 x 9 x 5 inches."
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers2.htm
In fact I believe the only person on the list using Nickel Zinc uses a
PFC-20 (or is it a PFC-50?)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After reading the charging protocall again for the SAFT NICADS and reading
Bill's comments, I had one thought about oppertunity charging with respect
to the recommended overcharge. It looks to me as if the 15% overcharge
would be based on the total discharge before the over charge is achieved to
get the negative plate charged back to par with the positive plate. In
other words, if you discharge to 50%, then bulk charge (oppertunity) to 30%,
then discharge to 60%. The total discharge would be 110% and you would need
to overcharge by 15% of this final number to bring the batteries back to
full charge.
Does this sound correct?
Does the BRUSA charger with the SAFT algorythm work this way?
Paul Wallace
'91 chevy S-10 full of SAFT NICADs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends how big the bike is. A PFC 20 might do nice. How big is the pack?
Weight of bike etc...... Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Niessen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 6:00 AM
Subject: Battery Charger for Nickel Zinc
> I am planning on a EV conversion of a Motorcycle and leaning toward a 160V
> system using Evercel Nickel Zinc batteries, due to size and weight. But I
> am wondering if anyone has any recommendations on a charger that would
suit
> the 10Ah cells that would fit this application.
>
> Would love to have it an onboard charger, but given the voltage, I would
> expect most chargers to run off of 230V AC (which prevents easy plugin in
> many places). But if the added cost of a 120V system is reasonable, I
> would be interested.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Untill it is proven it is vaporware. When I can follow it in a car with a
friend in the Delorean for 450 miles then I will believe it. No even better
a drive cross country with no refueling. Doesn't need it right? Then I
will believe. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "tts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:27 AM
Subject: RE: Update on Tilley's Delorian
> Anyone willing to guess as to what the device is that extends the range
and
> provides re-charging.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of John Bryan
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 6:08 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Update on Tilley's Delorian
>
>
>
> I recently got an email from Bruce Meland about his visit
> to Tilley's, checking his website I found this writeup with lots
> of pictures that you might enjoy:
>
> http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/delorean_ev2.html
>
> Rumor has it that the figure the foreign company is
> paying for the technology is high 10 figures.
>
> ...John
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A leather covered padded PFC 20/50 for use as a seat. Just check
option NoChance001 when ordering your charger.
Eric
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Depends how big the bike is. A PFC 20 might do nice. How big is the
> pack?
> Weight of bike etc...... Lawrence Rhodes...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gordon Niessen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 6:00 AM
> Subject: Battery Charger for Nickel Zinc
>
>
> > I am planning on a EV conversion of a Motorcycle and leaning toward
> a 160V
> > system using Evercel Nickel Zinc batteries, due to size and weight.
> But I
> > am wondering if anyone has any recommendations on a charger that
> would
> suit
> > the 10Ah cells that would fit this application.
> >
> > Would love to have it an onboard charger, but given the voltage, I
> would
> > expect most chargers to run off of 230V AC (which prevents easy
> plugin in
> > many places). But if the added cost of a 120V system is
> reasonable, I
> > would be interested.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The W.L. Gore Electrode PR provided absolutely no actual information
of use to anyone. The Subject Nissan Capacitor was mentioned in the
Dec. SAE A.E.I. (SAE Journal, Jack Yamaguchi). This is also PR, but
with numbers.
"The capacitor module has 384 cells, operates at a maximum voltage of 346
V, has maximum capacity of 583 W-h, has a rated input/output of 60
kW, and measures 1105 x 505 x 470 mm (44 x 20 x 19 in). The Super
Capacitor's energy density is 6.3 W-h/kg and possesses a high
charge/discharge efficiency of 500 W-h/kg, which are both higher than
the capacitor norm."
My quick look says this is somewhat better than Maxwell and much
lighter. Not knowing if I made a booboo, I'll leave real analysis for
a later look.
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This thread should probably die, however ...
Vince, Do you have a reference for a solid hydrogen storage system that is
both efficient and that I can afford to purchase? I know there are systems
for storing hydrogen in bound form. I would not call it 'solid' form as that
requires a temperature of -259 degrees C. I was not aware any of them had
reached commercial feasibility.
As for the power company side of the meter pumped storage is quite common.
Here is reference and an excerpt.
From: http://www.iclei.org/efacts/hydroele.htm
"Pumped Storage" is another form of hydro-electric power. Pumped storage
facilities use excess electrical system capacity, generally available at
night, to pump water from one reservoir to another reservoir at a higher
elevation. During periods of peak electrical demand, water from the higher
reservoir is released through turbines to the lower reservoir, and
electricity is produced (Figure 2). Although pumped storage sites are not
net producers of electricity - it actually takes more electricity to pump
the water up than is recovered when it is released - they are a valuable
addition to electricity supply systems. Their value is in their ability to
store electricity for use at a later time when peak demands are occurring.
Storage is even more valuable if intermittent sources of electricity such as
solar or wind are hooked into a system.
-----Original Message-----
From: Vince [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: December 17, 2002 08:39
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
Peter wrote:
> > As I previously posted, "hydro" isn't mobile. You don't get to
> > decide where the powerplant will be located. I haven't seen any
> > evidence that "huge gyros" are currently a practical technology for
> > mass storage.
>
> Good for you, however "mobile" wasn't part of the discussion previously
> so...what's your point?
My point is that you can't move waterfalls around to meet the demand.
Additionally, there are not any new waterfalls popping up to meet
the increased demand for power.
> > I'd take a little less efficient and on my side of the meter over a
> > little more efficient and on the other side of the meter any day.
>
> We aren't talking about on your side of the meter we were talking about
> power production and distribution which generally happens on the other
> side of the meter.
Ah, but the original article most assuredly did, and was the crux of the
perspective of decentralization.
> > Hydrogen can now be stored as a solid at room temperature utilizing
> > renewable resources.
>
> Again your point?? Being able to store it as a solid has nothing to
> do with efficiency or even with costs.
Sure it does.
The process is exothermic, not requiring any external heat, and utilizing
renewable resources. Further, the process is totally inorganic
(carbon and sulfur free), producing a high quality energy source (hydrogen
or electricity) without any polluting emissions.
> P.S. I'll admit the "huge" part of huge gyros (flywheels) is somewhat
> subjective. However here are some real world examples of flywheel
> storage systems:
Peter, I never claimed that "gyros" didn't exist. I merely stated that I
hadn't yet seen any practical applications.
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
..
>
> > My question is has anyone tried building significant portions of their
> > electrical drivetrain into components that can be removed from the
> > vehicle and tested (under low power) apart from the vehicle itself?
> > What are the issues encountered or anticipated?
>
> My LecHart EV has a big metal plate that comes out of the car with 3
> bolts. It has the controller; shunt; 2 contactors; main, charger, and
> heater fuses; precharge circuit, cooling fan, and connectors on it. I
> built, wired, tested, and ran the whole thing on the bench. From time to
> time I've made changes and improvements, by just pulling it back out.
My ACRX is built this way too. Inverter attached with 4 bolts
(main and precharge contactors and DC-DC converter happen to be
integrated in it, so I don't even have them as separate systems),
the motor is attached with 4 bolts in front and 2 supporting its back.
Of course, charger and batteries are separate, so are main fuses.
My whole setup was tested on the bench. In fact, this is how I test
and program every system I ship.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Lee and Christopher!
Comments inline...
> On Behalf Of Lee Hart
>
> Steve wrote:
> > I was thinking that perhaps I could build, design and possibly even
> > test the entire subsystem - from the go pedal to the motors to the
> > heater to the charger - before I even have the car in my hands.
>
> I have always built my EVs with everything in separate modules that bolt
> into the car. For one, it's easier to build and wire them on the bench
> than in the car. For another, you can take them out for repairs,
> modifications, or to move to the next car.
It seemed logical to me though I was a bit concerned about the extra weight
that bolting components directly to the car could avoid. However, the body
has had most of its sheet metal support structure removed since the vehicle
is no longer a unibody and there probably isn't many places to bolt
components to anyways.
> If someone else is building the car, you can do the same thing you do
> with batteries, motors, and other large components. Give the builder the
> dimensions of the controller, charger, and other misc. stuff. It does
> not have to be the REAL dimensions -- just give him a big enough numbers
> so he'll leave you sufficient space for what you really do install.
The builders are pretty firm on putting the three 8" motors inline into the
tranny then about 12 inches of driveshaft into the rear end so I think I'll
need to work within the dimensions they give me. Anything along the
centerline is pretty much their domain. Outside of this, however, I'll have
a great deal of flexibility on where I can place the electrics. The
builders feel sure there will be no problems finding room for the 84 batts
with at least 30 of them over the rear end alone.
> > It's been suggested that I should build a wiring diagram of how I
> > intend to hook everything together.
>
> Absolutely! This is vital! When you start making an accurate complete
> wiring diagram, you will discover all sorts of extra parts that you
> forgot about (fuses, connectors). You will also discover gaps in your
> knowledge (where should this be connected to, anyway?). You can also
> spot any "oops" problems on paper, before things get serious (oops, if I
> wire it this way, I short the pack to ground!).
I'll start that hopefully soon and get the list some pictures to heckle.
> > My question is has anyone tried building significant portions of their
> > electrical drivetrain into components that can be removed from the
> > vehicle and tested (under low power) apart from the vehicle itself?
> > What are the issues encountered or anticipated?
>
> My LecHart EV has a big metal plate that comes out of the car with 3
> bolts. It has the controller; shunt; 2 contactors; main, charger, and
> heater fuses; precharge circuit, cooling fan, and connectors on it. I
> built, wired, tested, and ran the whole thing on the bench. From time to
> time I've made changes and improvements, by just pulling it back out.
>
> Rick Woodbury's Tango has several modular subsystems. Inside the battery
> box is a high voltage control box (HVCB), which contains the main
> contactor to cut power, the precharge circuit, shunt, prescaler, fuses,
> and HV disconnect connectors.
>
> The six controller contactors are on another subassembly. Others include
> the controller, charger, and DC/DC converter subsystems.
What do you have in your Charger and DC/DC converter subsystems? I would've
thought they were fairly modularized already.
Is it wise to place connectors on the modules such that the only wires going
to and from the components in the module go through these connections or is
that just unnecessary weight?
Steve
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
voltage is 156v and It was in 3 or 4 gear so rpm should not have been to
high,.. unless you are looking close for somthing you wouldn't see the
lifted com . there is only on bar and when it passes the brush it rises 1 mm
. there is a lot of sparking going on when running and this seemed to be a
case form the begining. the motor never got warm but the brushes and com got
very hot and were smelling like cooked motor . There are 2 brushes side by
side and the others nearer the armiture seem fine
----- Original Message -----
From: "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'EV List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: Ge motor issue
> Lifting a comm bar typically happens because the motor over-revved. It
can
> happen in 10 seconds if you let it rev really high, or it can happen at
> somewhat lower RPMs if the motor is really hot.
>
> How fast did you rev the motor to?
>
> >do you think a 2 min ride (fast ride) would make this happen or was there
> >somthing wrong to begin with , The motor needs a fan or blower which I
> >didn't have on . found a place not to far that would put a new com on for
> >$500 . This is for sombody elese and as motor had adptor plate I could
give
> >them a good deal , Now they are looking at regular prices and for a net
> gain
> >motor and adptor plate . He wants me to have it fixed (i thimk he'll pay
> >the 500 as its still a lot cheeper than new stuff. ) I put my kostof in
the
> >car in the mean time but don't want to sell it . (using the adptor plate
> >form my veary first EV VW)
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Paul G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 5:37 PM
> >Subject: Ge motor issue (was: Re: Selectria Sunrise? and stuff)
> >
> >
> >> Steve Clunn wrote:
> >> >I'm turning it over
> >> >slow by hand and I see the brush move up and down at one point .
> >>
> >> This sounds like a high comm bar (especially with the heat you also
> >> noted). While the comm could be reground for little $$s I would not
> >> be inclined to trust this motor over 1/2 its rated rpm unless the
> >> comm was rebuilt (not as cheap). Something has likely come loose in
> >> the comm binding, not a good thing for an EV with rpm and amp loads
> >> (heat) all over the map. A good motor shop can inspect the actual
> >> motor (rather than me reading about the motor) and give a more solid
> >> answer.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" wrote:
>
> Bruce knows this, he drives an EV after all. This kind of fallacious
> reporting is inexcusable.
>
I agree. What do you think can make Bruce to publish this?
The more I read about this stuff, the more I suspect that
Tilley survival as long as possible and ET coverage are set up
to be mutually beneficial. Hope this is not true, I want to be
wrong here, but I can't imagine why otherwise Bruce does it -
it is seem to be a dis-service to the readers. Just like those
UFO publications.
With all respect, this is wrong way to attract subscribers Bruce.
(final point of the piece was urging to subscribe to find out more).
I know Bruce personally, he's fine man. I really wish I'd be
wrong on my judgment here...
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This paper details the 4 major steps from deciding to build an EV to
installation and testing. It was presented with Seth Murray, a high school
student, at NESEA's Energy in Schools Conference on November 14-15, 2002.
Seth converted an S10 and entered the ATdS winning a number of awards. The
email paper has links to Seth's pictures showing S10 construction, the ATdS
race, and how he survived a major accident.
A free copy of "Do It Right the First Time" is available from
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Vehicles of America, Inc. (EVA) is the leader in EV Safety with the
use of Anderson SBX connectors, the First Inertia switch, dual contactors,
and more. A paper describing safety is available also free. Its title is
"Safety First".
Just email your request to -------- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please do not send your request to the EV Digest.
We send our catalog with all technical paper requests.
"Anyone can build an EV - but building great EVs
requires experience and engineering."
Bob Batson P.E.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Free Offers at Home Page
www.EV-America.com
Electric Vehicles of America, Inc. (EVA)
Tel# 603-569-2100
Fax# 603-569-2900
11 Eagle Trace
P.O Box 2037
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***********************************
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*******************************************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been following fuel cell technology for quite some time, and I won't
get into the debate on it's pro's and con's. The debate will never end.
With that said...
If fuel cell vehicles are every mass produced and are reasonably
affordable, I'd buy one in a second. However, not for the reasons that
the industry would like you to believe. This is what I'd do with my Fuel
Cell vehicle:
1. Buy It.
2. Drive It home.
3. Remove the 75kw-90kw Fuel Cell Stack.
4. Remove the Hydrogen Storage Tanks/Reformer/Hydroxide Container.
5. Create Battery Boxes where all this equipment used to be.
6. Install <Insert Best Battery Technology Here> batteries and connect
them to the production quality electric drive system to give me between
150-400 mile range.
7. Install the Fuel Cell as a Backup/Primary Power Generator for my home
(Plus 4-6 of my neighbors)
8. Drive my all electric (Almost Production Vehicle) my normal 20-30 miles
a day.
9. Never Replace the batteries for the life of the car because I only use
10-15% DOD most of the time (Even if the batteries are rated for only 500
80% DOD cycles).
Just thought I'd drop my two cents. Like I said in the beginning, I CAN'T
WAIT for fuel cell vehicles!
Will
--
Will Judy
128VDC '74 VW Bug "Reba"
Juneau, Alaska
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello, John
I may very well be interested in four YTs for my Lectra. What is the total
mileage on the Sparrow?
Respond off-list if you want.
Jim Dempsey
99 Lectra
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
William Judy wrote:
>
..
>
> If fuel cell vehicles are every mass produced and are reasonably
^^^ ^^^^^
> affordable, I'd buy one in a second. However, not for the reasons that
> the industry would like you to believe. This is what I'd do with my Fuel
> Cell vehicle:
>
> 1. Buy It.
...
Sadly, "if" and "and" above will prevent otherwise good plan from
execution. I wish I wouldn't have to be so skeptical.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is diffently the hottest project going on /..It didn't sound like you
were going to series/parllel the motors just one controller per motor .
Have you though about that ,if so please share,.What is the planed voltage
now? . selling the DCP's ? what price ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:26 PM
Subject: RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
> Thank you Lee and Christopher!
>
> Comments inline...
>
> > On Behalf Of Lee Hart
> >
> > Steve wrote:
> > > I was thinking that perhaps I could build, design and possibly even
> > > test the entire subsystem - from the go pedal to the motors to the
> > > heater to the charger - before I even have the car in my hands.
> >
> > I have always built my EVs with everything in separate modules that bolt
> > into the car. For one, it's easier to build and wire them on the bench
> > than in the car. For another, you can take them out for repairs,
> > modifications, or to move to the next car.
>
> It seemed logical to me though I was a bit concerned about the extra
weight
> that bolting components directly to the car could avoid. However, the
body
> has had most of its sheet metal support structure removed since the
vehicle
> is no longer a unibody and there probably isn't many places to bolt
> components to anyways.
>
> > If someone else is building the car, you can do the same thing you do
> > with batteries, motors, and other large components. Give the builder the
> > dimensions of the controller, charger, and other misc. stuff. It does
> > not have to be the REAL dimensions -- just give him a big enough numbers
> > so he'll leave you sufficient space for what you really do install.
>
> The builders are pretty firm on putting the three 8" motors inline into
the
> tranny then about 12 inches of driveshaft into the rear end so I think
I'll
> need to work within the dimensions they give me. Anything along the
> centerline is pretty much their domain. Outside of this, however, I'll
have
> a great deal of flexibility on where I can place the electrics. The
> builders feel sure there will be no problems finding room for the 84 batts
> with at least 30 of them over the rear end alone.
>
> > > It's been suggested that I should build a wiring diagram of how I
> > > intend to hook everything together.
> >
> > Absolutely! This is vital! When you start making an accurate complete
> > wiring diagram, you will discover all sorts of extra parts that you
> > forgot about (fuses, connectors). You will also discover gaps in your
> > knowledge (where should this be connected to, anyway?). You can also
> > spot any "oops" problems on paper, before things get serious (oops, if I
> > wire it this way, I short the pack to ground!).
>
> I'll start that hopefully soon and get the list some pictures to heckle.
>
> > > My question is has anyone tried building significant portions of their
> > > electrical drivetrain into components that can be removed from the
> > > vehicle and tested (under low power) apart from the vehicle itself?
> > > What are the issues encountered or anticipated?
> >
> > My LecHart EV has a big metal plate that comes out of the car with 3
> > bolts. It has the controller; shunt; 2 contactors; main, charger, and
> > heater fuses; precharge circuit, cooling fan, and connectors on it. I
> > built, wired, tested, and ran the whole thing on the bench. From time to
> > time I've made changes and improvements, by just pulling it back out.
> >
> > Rick Woodbury's Tango has several modular subsystems. Inside the battery
> > box is a high voltage control box (HVCB), which contains the main
> > contactor to cut power, the precharge circuit, shunt, prescaler, fuses,
> > and HV disconnect connectors.
> >
> > The six controller contactors are on another subassembly. Others include
> > the controller, charger, and DC/DC converter subsystems.
>
> What do you have in your Charger and DC/DC converter subsystems? I
would've
> thought they were fairly modularized already.
>
> Is it wise to place connectors on the modules such that the only wires
going
> to and from the components in the module go through these connections or
is
> that just unnecessary weight?
>
> Steve
>
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Was anyone else discouraged by the shoveling of deep du du down everyones
throats. What a disgrace. Lawrence Rhodes...
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--- Begin Message ---
Brusa charger will return amount of Ah you program in it, plus optional
predefined extra. No matter how you partially charge - discharge the
batteries, if you track Ah in/out and want to do overcharge cycle,
charger will do it by simply calculating net Ah needed for it
(accumulated amount of pulses from the shunt unit - pos pulses during
charging are subtracted and neg during driving - added; total is Ah
spent overall since last full charge).
It works in conjunction with "active shunt" - a PCB mounted directly
on the shunt and converting in and out current to a frequency of
neg. or pos. pulses. A counter in the charger just counts those and,
thus knows how many Ah are left in the batteries.
You just pick equalizing profile in the software. FYI, SAFT specific
profile has been developed and is in the library of profiles
which come on CD-ROM with newer (NLG5 series) chargers.
Victor
"Wallace, Paul" wrote:
>
> After reading the charging protocall again for the SAFT NICADS and reading
> Bill's comments, I had one thought about oppertunity charging with respect
> to the recommended overcharge. It looks to me as if the 15% overcharge
> would be based on the total discharge before the over charge is achieved to
> get the negative plate charged back to par with the positive plate. In
> other words, if you discharge to 50%, then bulk charge (oppertunity) to 30%,
> then discharge to 60%. The total discharge would be 110% and you would need
> to overcharge by 15% of this final number to bring the batteries back to
> full charge.
>
> Does this sound correct?
>
> Does the BRUSA charger with the SAFT algorythm work this way?
>
> Paul Wallace
> '91 chevy S-10 full of SAFT NICADs
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--- Begin Message ---
Steve wrote:
> I was a bit concerned about the extra weight that bolting components
> directly to the car could avoid.
Carefully done, the resulting total weight shouldn't be any different.
For example, I have my controller bolted to a big piece of aluminum as
its heat sink. It needs to be there, anyway. I just mounted all the rest
of the parts to it, then mounted the heatsink to the car.
It's possible to mount the electrical components to some structural
member that is removable from the car. That way, there needn't be *any*
extra weight. It might look odd, however, having your parts bolted to
the underside of the hood :-)
> What do you have in your Charger and DC/DC converter subsystems?
> I would've thought they were fairly modularized already.
In the first prototype, they are purchased assemblies. But as we move
toward production, they become custom subsystems, integrated into the
design of the car.
> Is it wise to place connectors on the modules such that the only
> wires going to and from the components in the module go through
> these connections or is that just unnecessary weight?
This is an interesting question. In the extreme, connectors just add
weight and lower reliability. But, you have to somehow be able to put it
together, and get it apart for repairs and servicing. Connectors can be
your safety disconnects, and allow fast repairs at the track.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>The builders are pretty firm on putting the three 8" motors inline into the
>tranny then about 12 inches of driveshaft into the rear end so I think I'll
>need to work within the dimensions they give me. Anything along the
>centerline is pretty much their domain. Outside of this, however, I'll have
>a great deal of flexibility on where I can place the electrics. The
>builders feel sure there will be no problems finding room for the 84 batts
>with at least 30 of them over the rear end alone.
Wow! all three motor inline? In a drag racing application?
Drag racing puts way more torque on the shaft than these motors are
typically designed for and in your case you're going to have three times
"way more torque".
How are you planning on overcoming this?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Marvin,
Congrats on the upcoming RAV4 EV. I guess that means you're no longer
looking for an S10E.
I have the same situation -- two EVs, and a SMUD side-saddle adapter
that is limited to 40A. (It has a 40A push-button circuit breaker built
into the bottom of the adapter.)
I have built a switcher box using an adjustable AC current-sensing
relay, a Veris Hawkeye. See http://www.veris.com/products/cs/index.html
Other components: A 120x24V control transformer, two 40A 2-pole
contactors, and a time-delay relay to prevent short-cycling if the
current to the primary charger dips for a short time.
I'd have to do a little research to find the exact model numbers of all
the parts, and a wiring diagram, but I could dig them up if you are
interested.
The RAV4 EV must be charged first. It will not "wake up" and charge if
the paddle is inserted when there is no power. With that restriction, my
setup works just fine. I use it almost every night -- charge the RAV4,
then the PbA EV1. (Actually, I have three EVs -- the third is an S10E.
I charge that one separately. The circuitry could actually be expanded
to handle a third EV, but I haven't done that yet.)
Tom Dowling....
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:50:19 -0800
From: Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Load-Sensing Transfer Switch for 2 Chargers
Well, we finally got everything squared away with Edison regarding our
TOU meter, with one little hitch:
Since the TOU meter's "sidesaddle" mounting ring (which is attached
under our existing meter) is only rated for 60 amps we can't charge two
cars simultaneously.
In order to get everything up and running we now have a manual transfer
switch, but since we can only charge between 9pm and noon, to get both
cars charged overnight will involve "someone" getting up at 3 or 4am and
hitting the switch.
I would use a timer and separate circuit but we only have one circuit
for the TOU meter with two chargers using it.
Someone mentioned to me a mechanical load-sensing switch that, after
first charge tapers off, would then switch over to second charger
automatically.
What would be the simplest means by which to achieve this end?
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
1992 Soleq EVcort
2003 RAV4 EV
(Hollywood Toyota called and told me they were out of 2002 RAV4s. As I
began to keel over, they hurriedly added that that meant we would be
getting a 2003 instead and was that OK with me? Incentive deadline has
also been moved back from 12/31/02 to sometime in 3/03)
Just because the oil company owns our government doesn't mean we have to
buy their product. -Mo'Nilla
Tom Dowling
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--- Begin Message ---
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/12/16/war_on_california/index.html?x
Dec. 16, 2002 | In October, the Bush administration took time out from
battling al-Qaida and other evildoers to file an amicus brief in federal
court in Fresno, siding with automakers and dealers in a suit against a
California regulation requiring car manufacturers to sell "zero-emissions
vehicles."...
I wrote to the author of this piece, Katherine Mieszkowsky. She is
interested in doing more pieces like this and wishes to be kept
informed of what transpires on these issues politically. She seems very
happy to help 'the cause' of our air quality through ZEVs. The more
specific and current the information the better.
--
' ____
~/__|o\__
=)---'@----- @'
http://www.SoCalEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With the colder weather (cold for CA 40 F) I found my tires
were at 42 psi.
I pumped them up to 46 psi. The drag is less, but now I
slip and slide better too (even with new tread).
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 3:54 PM -0700 12/17/02, VanDerWal, Peter MSgt wrote:
>The builders are pretty firm on putting the three 8" motors inline into the
tranny then about 12 inches of driveshaft into the rear end so I think I'll
need to work within the dimensions they give me. Anything along the
centerline is pretty much their domain. Outside of this, however, I'll have
a great deal of flexibility on where I can place the electrics. The
builders feel sure there will be no problems finding room for the 84 batts
with at least 30 of them over the rear end alone.
Wow! all three motor inline? In a drag racing application?
Drag racing puts way more torque on the shaft than these motors are
typically designed for and in your case you're going to have three times
"way more torque".
How are you planning on overcoming this?
Oh geez, not this again. Peter, check out the archives, this was a
week long discussion last time. It was determined that the only
shaft that would be a problem was the rear shaft on the last motor.
I believe the solution was the have the motor rebuilt with a "input"
shaft.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> This is diffently the hottest project going on
Why, thank you. As many on this list know, this project has been a looooong
time commin. Many list members implored me to start with something easier
but did I listen? Nooooooo.
Nevertheless, even though it's taken many years to get even this far, I'm
still very glad I chose this route.
> ..It didn't sound like you were going to series/parllel
> the motors just one controller per motor.
> Have you though about that ,if so please share,.
That's right. The Ghia is going to use a one controller per motor
configuration. I did consider a series/parallel configuration but decided
against it for reasons that had mostly to do with the odd number of motors.
As far as I know, there's no one controller on the market with enough power
to saturate all three motors. Thus, it was going to have to be a multiple
controller configuration from the start. To run multiple controllers
together in either series or parallel, the PWM timing across them has to be
pretty much perfect to avoid zorching everything. As power goes up, the
problem gets progressively worse. One controller per motor is by far the
most resilient configuration according to Otmar and Damon, the undisputed
controller experts.
Still, I didn't want to sacrifice any torque at launch time so I went with a
transmission. John Wayland suggested I use a Lenco because they were small,
light and, most importantly, indestructable. Sure enough, Lenco promised to
replace the $5K transmission free of charge if I could ever manage to break
it even though I threatened it might see as much as 1000 ft lbs and that the
Ghia would be running with 15" slicks. They said 'no problem'. What more
could I ask? ;o)
> What is the planed voltage now?
The planned voltage now is still 336v. I'd go higher if I could but that's
all the high voltage DC controllers are rated for. Otmar's have a limiting
feature that will make sure the motors don't get too many volts but they
can't trade volts for amps to get a higher voltage than the pack produces.
Three strings of 336v (900 lbs) of the tiny SVRs are going to sag quite a
bit at the end of the track. I want to make sure the motors get all the
voltage they can handle at that point.
> Selling the DCP's ? what price ?
Yes I am. They're T-Rex T1000s - rated by Damon for 336v at 1000 amps. I'm
asking $2500 each since they've never been used and are good as new. I paid
$2800 for them.
I hear they make great stocking stuffers ;o)
Steve
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