EV Digest 2493
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EV data acquisition systems
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Really High Voltage Drive
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV data acquisition systems
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Ranger EVs Still Around?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV data acquisition systems
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Really High Voltage Drive
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Prius hacking. Alec Brooks AC Propulsion
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EV data acquisition systems
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) PC board moisture sealant (was Ranger EVs Still Around?)
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Ranger EVs Still Around?
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Crowbar switch?
by Roger Daisley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Crowbar switch?
by "tgleeman2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Happy Holidays
by Rick Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Crowbar switch?
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Ranger EVs Still Around?
by Jeremy Maus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Crowbar switch?
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
--- Andre Blanchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Analog meter and a video camera.
That sounds good... like this maybe:
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=bikespeed.avi
Lock
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> Don Powell wrote:
> >
> > > the micro-nano technology that was recently suppressed for
> > > fuel injectors.
> > > The invention was a screen so fine and so sharp that it
> > > literally split
> > > water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen so that an
> > > automobile could run on
> > > pure water.
> >
> > You *are* being sarcastic, right? Something capable of physically splitting
> > molecular bonds, cute.
> >
> > Don
> > More Phunny fuel injection stories.
> Why do all fuel injection systems have a Rail and a return line to the
> Tank???
> Why pump more pressurized fuel up through the filters, and then bleed if
> off back to the fuel tank???
> because the action of the injectors in the pressurized fuel rail
> "Creates Gas bubbles" in the fuel flow. Driving this back to the tank
> lets the fuel cool as well as the vapor/ bubbles to condense or
> seperate. Also this allows the fuel tank to keep the fuel cool by
> getting it out from under the hot hood before it vaporizes from the
> engine heat.
No, it's just because the reg valve maintaining constant fuel pressure
is outside the fuel pump (in line between pump and injectors,
so no matter what the fluctuations of the pump productivity are
(voltage sags, etc.), if it exceeds actual fuel consumption, extra fuel
is diverted back to the tank. And the pump for this reason is always
designed to deliver more fuel (per unit of time) than the engine ever
consumes.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This might be a stupid question, but I have to ask.
What if an EV could utilize a scaled down version of
the drive system of mass transit (like subway or
street carts)?
I don't know what the voltage is, but I assume it is
pretty high. And, if the voltage is high enough, a
few packs of Prius batteries in *series* will do the
job of providing adequate range. Or, a long series of
small Li-Ion is all we need. We will not need
special, large battery for EVs and the drive
technology is already proven.
What did I miss?
Ed Ang
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have good success with Dataq's $25 starter kit (Joe, thanks for
leads): http://www.dataq.com/194.htm
I implemented current recording with Burr-Brown bidirectional
shunt monitor INA170 chip; this allows to record the drive
battery current and regen (negative) current. If you care,
schematic is here: http://www.metricmind.com/misc/shunt.gif
All components (except the shunt) are from Digikey, may be another
$20 or so.
Here you can see the system attached to two 100 Ah LiIon cells I'm
evaluating: http://www.metricmind.com/misc/test.jpg
Whole thing is on small prototype PCB above acquisition module:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/acq.jpg
Recording is done on a laptop and can be exported to excel later
for data massaging. It may look something like this:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/plot.gif
I'm installing this in ACRX to collect real life data for
refining requirements for BMS.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been toying with EV data acquisition for a while to optimize my electric
> drag bike. Trying to remember what an ammeter was doing while blasting down
> the 1/8 mile doesn't really get it done.
>
> There's a few high dollar solutions out there, but I'm working with a
> Microprocessor with 12 bit A-D converters. The code is easy, but conditioning
> signals is the problem.
>
> At this point, I'm analyzing different signal with a scope.
>
> Battery Volts - This one's easy. Nice and smooth.
>
> Motor Volts - I can get PWM voltage, shows duty cycle, at full ON I get steady
> volts. This is usable.
>
> AMPS?
> That's where the problems lie. With a 50mv shunt, I get some pretty erratic
> signals. Am I correct in saying MOTOR AMPS should be fairly constant, since
> the freewheeling diodes are allowing current to circulate even when the MOSFETs
> are off? I do expect BATTERY AMPS to be pulses, as the controller is only
> asking for amps part of the time.
>
> I have had nice 'looking' results with a current clamp. I say nice looking
> because I think the clamp is missing something, maybe not accurate at PWM
> frequencies? Although even if it's not accurate, the clamp is still an
> indication of whether amps are going up or down. The precision isn't as
> important as the accuracy.
>
> Back to the shunt measurements, that's the method used in E-meters. It must be
> a good method, but I'm missing something they've got. Just plugging RS-232
> into an emeter would work, but only outputs every second..
>
> So, are there any proven methods out there for rapidly recording AMPS?
>
> Darin Gilbert
> Bad Fish Racing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apparently, TDM made more units than you know about. I recently helped
a man who brought the Siemens 6SV long inverter, pulled from a van,
which had TDM software loaded in it. AT ONE TIME TDM installed and
programmed these units not only for Ford.
Victor
BORTEL wrote:
>
> Jeremy,
> The motor/controller/charger in the TDM version of the Ford Ranger EV were
> made by Northrop-Grumman (Westinghouse), not by Siemens. I was just at TDM
> Thanksgiving week picking up the remaining Ranger EV parts from their
> inventory. There are 7 of us across the US that own most of the units
> produced by TDM for Ford.
> Dan Bortel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeremy Maus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:34 AM
> Subject: RE: Ranger EVs Still Around?
>
> > Hi List.
> >
> > I better speak up here. I am working for Visteon - the spinoff from ford
> that
> > supplied the EV parts to Ford. Th!nk then took over EV Ranger support.
> Now ?
> >
> > 1. The motor is, in my opinion, very well integrated into the driveaxle.
> I
> > don't know why you would want to upgrade it. The controls were designed
> to
> > limit torque from the motor to avoid wheel spin. Top speed should be like
> 90mph
> > and power into it can be more than the inverter gives it now. - just what
> I have
> > heard don't know for sure.
> >
> > Victor, the prototype TDM build rangers used siemens systems. But the
> > production version built at MSX has the, in my opinion, well engineered
> motor
> > axle assembly. Th e motor and gears are submerged in oil.
> >
> > 2. The inverter is not that powerfull, but I would say designed well.
> The
> > logic and gate drive circuits are on different sides of the board. This
> > inverter passed strict EMC/EMI requirements, not possible if the hi
> voltage and
> > logic are together.
> >
> > It should be easy to put a more powerfull inverte in place of the the TIM.
> You
> > will lose the rev limiting and low battery modes.
> >
> > 3. The EV Rangers must have been sold. They ordered enough parts for 10
> years
> > of repair. They are required to do this if they sell a vehicle.
> >
> > 4. The batteries are made at the East Penn. - 8V AGM type. Same case as
> the
> > EV1 12V modules but double the plates. The biggest improvement would be
> > regulators on the batteries. With regs battery life would double to
> quadruple.
> >
> > Gary Graunke, if you would like to discuss design flaws with the Ford
> Inverters,
> > please talk to me directly. I would like any input to improve other
> inverters
> > we are designing.
> >
> > Happy Holidays,
> >
> > Jeremy Maus
> > Belleville, MI
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://www.emidget.info
> > _____
> > __/__|__\__
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > `-'O'---'O'-'
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Victor Tikhonov
> >
> > Jim Coate wrote:
> > >
> > > Mason Convey wrote:
> > > > A few questions regarding the production Ford Ranger EVs...
> > >
> > > Yeah, what he said... good questions. I'll add one more:
> > >
> > > 4. How "hackable" are they? As in if change battery pack capacity,
> > > voltage, etc. can a mere mortal alter the charger to match? Ditto for
> > > the controller, "fuel" gage, etc. Or if add a different charger does the
> > > controller then get confused?
> > >
> > > Or would one of Victor's AC drives bolt right in? :-)
> >
> > All indications suggest that it will: AC motors for Ford Rangers
> > made by Ballard (type A312V67 MG) are just Siemens 1PV51xx series
> > motors, from which front flanges are removed and gear box bolted in.
> >
> > The motors look identical up to and including cables locations
> > and fittings (and even casted loops for lifting are the same).
> > wonder how Ballard got away with copyright issues...
> >
> > If I were a truck fan and had dead Ranger, I'd remove the
> > motor and install complete Siemens system. I believe, Gary
> > Graunke mentioned that there are inexcusable design flaws
> > in the Inverter - hi voltage components and PCB traces
> > are in close proximity with low voltage logic circuit.
> >
> > Victor
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have used current transducers with good luck. Often the need something
like +/-15V to drive them, but LEM makes some nice ones with current
output at ratios like 1000:1. By placing a "shunt" (usually a resistor
in the tens of ohms) on the current output of the transducer right next
to your A/D device you can increase noise immunity, as it will drive at
whatever voltage need to achieve the current required (within limits).
So you can put the transducer somewhere convenient and the DAQ somewhere
remote. I have use the LEM LF series of transducers more than others,
but 1000A and higher units are available, as well as voltage transducers
if you want to take relatively accurate voltage measurements with
isolation. I had good luck with multiple current and voltage
measurements fed to a PC/104 based DAQ. The (shielded) wires ran past no
fewer than 7 AC traction drives and it worked pretty well.
http://www.lem.com/ works, but only with IE, and poorly at that for
product selection.
caveat- I am not an EE, but I occasionally play one on TV :)
HTH
Seth
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been toying with EV data acquisition for a while to optimize my electric
> drag bike. Trying to remember what an ammeter was doing while blasting down
> the 1/8 mile doesn't really get it done.
>
> There's a few high dollar solutions out there, but I'm working with a
> Microprocessor with 12 bit A-D converters. The code is easy, but conditioning
> signals is the problem.
>
> At this point, I'm analyzing different signal with a scope.
>
> Battery Volts - This one's easy. Nice and smooth.
>
> Motor Volts - I can get PWM voltage, shows duty cycle, at full ON I get steady
> volts. This is usable.
>
> AMPS?
> That's where the problems lie. With a 50mv shunt, I get some pretty erratic
> signals. Am I correct in saying MOTOR AMPS should be fairly constant, since
> the freewheeling diodes are allowing current to circulate even when the MOSFETs
> are off? I do expect BATTERY AMPS to be pulses, as the controller is only
> asking for amps part of the time.
>
> I have had nice 'looking' results with a current clamp. I say nice looking
> because I think the clamp is missing something, maybe not accurate at PWM
> frequencies? Although even if it's not accurate, the clamp is still an
> indication of whether amps are going up or down. The precision isn't as
> important as the accuracy.
>
> Back to the shunt measurements, that's the method used in E-meters. It must be
> a good method, but I'm missing something they've got. Just plugging RS-232
> into an emeter would work, but only outputs every second..
>
> So, are there any proven methods out there for rapidly recording AMPS?
>
> Darin Gilbert
> Bad Fish Racing
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The fear factor, at least for me. :)
600V (DC) seems like a scary long way from even 300.
Insulation becomes a lot less trivial. Fuses and equipment that is rated
to *charging voltages on 600VDC systems (near 800VDC) start to get
scarce and/or more expensive. That being said, it can still be done and
it is. I am not aware of anyone using really small NiMH/Li batteries in
this fashion, and it seems that watt-hours per kilo is the same whether
it is HV or high current.
Seth
Edward Ang wrote:
>
> This might be a stupid question, but I have to ask.
> What if an EV could utilize a scaled down version of
> the drive system of mass transit (like subway or
> street carts)?
>
> I don't know what the voltage is, but I assume it is
> pretty high. And, if the voltage is high enough, a
> few packs of Prius batteries in *series* will do the
> job of providing adequate range. Or, a long series of
> small Li-Ion is all we need. We will not need
> special, large battery for EVs and the drive
> technology is already proven.
>
> What did I miss?
>
> Ed Ang
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Using the existing Prius drive motor, it would be a low power EV suited for
urban travel, but would be freeway capable. (A minor modification to the
Prius transmission would eliminate the 41mph limit on electric power alone.)
The battery should last at least 10 years and 100,000 miles.
I don't recommend that, at least not by much! The Prius transaxle is
limited to 42mph because at that point the motor/generator that is
not turning (can't without turning the engine over) hits 6500rpm.
This is the factory limit for the PM rotor. In some cases the Prius
control system does choose to spin that M/G to go faster, but that
means the ICE is turning over without fuel. Not a real good choice
for range or energy efficiency.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Darin Gilbert asked:
"So, are there any proven methods out there for rapidly recording AMPS?"
Andre Blanchard wrote:
"Analog meter and a video camera."
Actually, that works. ~25 years ago, Pratt & Whitney Canada used an
ancient Beech 18 twin with the test engine installed in the nose for
flight test. The Project Eng. asked for a test of a problem engine and
since it was an older model, I got to look at the data. The pictures
of the instruments was fuzzy, dark and like most standard aircraft
instruments, they were too small. The data didn't look right, so I got
a calibration of the inlet pressure (flow) gauge.
That looked funny, so I questioned the data. It was a hysteresis cal.
showing twice the reading going down as that going up. It turned out
that (no matter how important the test was) they weren't going to put
in a good instrument because the airplane was going to be retired (it
went to a museum). The gauge itself was an air speed meter never meant
for air flow, but a good instrument before it was ruptured with
overpressure and the front face of the gauge blown out to rub against
the pointer.
Project Engineers are important people, so if they say "get the
answer", you provide the answer. Of course, the safe thing is to find
out that the engine needs to be rebuilt which costs about $ 20,000
when there is nothing wrong. Even writing a report documenting the
data reduction and probability of errors, the engine was rebuilt
successfully and everyone was happy.
That's what can happen when a test is requested with a poor plan, run
with poor equipment, calibrations not done until too late by a T.E.
who thinks the P.E. is a bugger, thinks the analyst is a moron and the
flight should be cut short to improve his productivity numbers.
Sorry, but a camera mounted on a bike should be the last resort.
I loved my career and had the advantage of knowing why the calculation
I did was good or bogus, but the solid state - computerized - data
collection, storage and reduction is really nice. Faster, more
accurate and easier to analyze if everyone knows what they are doing.
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
You system is a work of art! Plenty of great examples here! Thank you for
the pictures!
Steve
> In my case inverter has 2 battery cables in, 3 motor cables out,
> (all - lugs on the studs), 12V DC-DC cable out, and 2 other signal
> connectors: motor shaft encoder/motor temp sensors (I think 7 wires),
> http://www.metricmind.com/images/cables.jpg
> And flat AMP connector with 35 blade type contacts for the dash
> interface: http://www.metricmind.com/images/connector.jpg
>
> Internally +12V DC-DC output cable is directly attached to the PCB
> (small lug on the stud where DC-DC fuse is connected). You can see
> it here: http://www.metricmind.com/images/l_open.jpg Left section
> is DC-Dc PCB and its output fuse in lower left corner and black
> cable running down from it is visible.
>
> All connectors are waterproof and power ones are also covered
> (none exposed).
>
> As of schematic, you can see it if you download installation
> manual: http://www.metricmind.com/data/man_w.pdf
>
> Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll look into those sealants. They will undoubtedly be useful for
building a HV board that will last.
However, I suspect that some of the internal tolerances on the
multi-layer board are also inadequate.
So I still plan on taking just the small corner which is the high
voltage section and put it on another board. The section is part of a DC-DC
converter which uses a multiple secondary step-down transformer to get the
various voltages (+-5, +-15) that the board uses. The transformer will be
the boundary between the two boards, though there might also be a few
connections via high value resistors for measuring the HV.
Finally, there is still the ~1/32" spacing between the chassis ground
connection and the 405VDC fuse block!
================================================================
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 2:19 pm
Subject: RE: Ranger EVs Still Around?
Gary,
Instead of redoing the whole board, why don't you poor some Humiseal
1B31
on the board.
http://www.humiseal.com/protect/acrylic.htm
Urethane is even better since it is more resistant to solvents, but
it's a
little
harder to work with. Urethane also has a higher dielectric constant.
http://www.humiseal.com/protect/urethane.htm
These will make a big difference! Just ask Bob Rice, he probably has a
BLDC
fuel pump made by Ametek on his big hybrid (Amtrack train). The
integrated
half wave drive
is coated with Urethane.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
>
> Steve wrote:
> > The Ghia is going to use a one controller per motor configuration.
> > I did consider a series/parallel configuration but decided
> > against it for reasons that had mostly to do with the odd number
> > of motors.
>
> This in itself is no problem. You can switch 3 motors in series or
> parallel. It would be roughly equivalent to changing between two gears
> with a 3:1 ratio (kind of a big jump; like 1st to 3rd).
I guess I meant that although one controller might be enough for two motors
but not enough for three, an odd number of motors would lead to a mismatch
in power sharing.
> I'd try something different; like leaving the armatures all in parallel,
> but switching the fields either in series or parallel. This would give
> you a closer "gear ratio". Series fields gives you the tremendous
> starting torque, and parallel fields provides field weakening for more
> torque at high rpm.
Um, huh? Nevermind... I'll stick with configurations I can barely grasp
rather than not at all.
> > As far as I know, there's no one controller on the market with enough
> > power to saturate all three motors.
>
> Igor, bring me the knife switch... :-)
Bah ha ha ha! I have mental images of riding a giant balloon turned loose -
flying around until it runs out of air.
> > One controller per motor is by far the most resilient configuration
> > according to Otmar and Damon, the undisputed controller experts.
>
> I agree. No particular problems with getting them to share the torque or
> power.
>
> > The planned voltage now is still 336v.
>
> Now, *that* will be a challenge!
Uh oh... In what way?? Please elaborate oh wise one...
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Rod Hower
>
(snip)
> Since the existing control
> was not bolted down I unplugged all of the connectors and re-installed the
> spare control at the sub division entrance. I was only delayed by 5
> minutes!
(snip)
> Rod
I wonder just how much I should worry about arcing across these connectors.
I hope to have around 200 VDC at around 2000 amps under full power through
some of them. Can anyone recommend connectors that can handle this and
don't weigh a ton?
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
>
> > Oh geez, not this again. Peter, check out the archives, this was a
> > week long discussion last time. It was determined that the only
> > shaft that would be a problem was the rear shaft on the last motor.
> > I believe the solution was the have the motor rebuilt with a "input"
> > shaft.
It's unfortunate that discussion ended up hogging so much bandwidth. I'm
sure many people were tired of hearing about it after awhile. I'm trying
not to turn the list into a chatroom and will take ad nauseum threads
offline in the future when appropriate.
> I never was completely happy, and now he has 2000 Motor amps on tap.
Rich and I have discussed this on the phone before. I think he feels the
rear end alone won't be able to take the torque. I wish I could tell him I
knew it would. All I know is that it's pro stock class stuff that Strange
says can take 1000 ft lbs and I doubt we can really get all that to the
ground. Of course, Strange's not going to replace it for free if I brake it
like the Lenco guys have offered to do with their tranny ;o)
> With all the problems the Silver Bullet, and the Megawatt
> Monster have
> with 3 and 6 motors. I really think there will be difficulties.
I'd really like to know more about these specific issues and any others that
anyone else can bring up. If there's something here I can design around,
now's the time to do it. This is a complete from-the-ground-up project
giving me what I hope is the greatest possible design flexibility. The
worst thing I can imagine is to miss an opportunity to learn from the
mistakes of others who've tried to do this exact same thing - especially
when I've had sooo long to ponder it.
> Oh well this is racing... things get learned and broken.
Yikes! Hopefully not at these prices =o/ I mean, for example, if the $4K
rear end is *really* not going to take the torque then why bother?? The
builders know how to build VW drag racers and have the experience to defeat
tire hop and all. Now, I doubt they've seen the kind of torque these motors
are going to generate but I think I've scared them enough to prepare for
it - even bringing the Wayland jones down on them at one point to make sure
they knew I was serious ;o)
> I would start with single motor runs, then add the 2nd and third taking
> notes time slips along the way.
This sounds very logical to me and will be my approach unless there's a
better reason to do otherwise.
> 3 motors and controllers may just be more than the chassis can use. If
> so the additional weight is just in your way.
It would be too much for the chassis to use because I don't have enough
batteries to push it?? If so, I don't see that as much of a problem right
now because I have faith that (eventually!) some really powerful batts will
become accessible within the Ghia's lifetime.
If there's another reason that can be designed around, I'd sure like to hear
about it sooner rather than later.
> I applaud those who are at least trying and putting stuff together.
> There are some pretty big names that were to rule this sport, that have
> not even taken a run down the strip.
>
> Come on Steve, let's see it run!!!
I've not come this far to quit. Rest assured this car will go fast... or
die trying ;o)
Steve
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 6:11 PM -0800 12/19/02, Steve wrote:
> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
>
> Oh geez, not this again. Peter, check out the archives, this was a
> week long discussion last time. It was determined that the only
> shaft that would be a problem was the rear shaft on the last motor.
> I believe the solution was the have the motor rebuilt with a "input"
> shaft.
It's unfortunate that discussion ended up hogging so much bandwidth. I'm
sure many people were tired of hearing about it after awhile. I'm trying
not to turn the list into a chatroom and will take ad nauseum threads
offline in the future when appropriate.
Just to set the record straight, that was my statement, not Rich's.
I personally have no problem with those discussions taking place on
the list. As a mechanical engineering student, real-life
applications for these equations are fascinating. I just get way too
much email to sort through tens of messages to find the new material.
Good luck on your project, it should be a amazingly powerful car.
Keith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Behalf Of Keith Richtman
>
> At 6:11 PM -0800 12/19/02, Steve wrote:
> > > Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> > >
> >> > Oh geez, not this again. Peter, check out the archives, this was a
> >> > week long discussion last time. It was determined that the only
> >> > shaft that would be a problem was the rear shaft on the last motor.
> >> > I believe the solution was the have the motor rebuilt with a "input"
> >> > shaft.
> >
> >It's unfortunate that discussion ended up hogging so much bandwidth. I'm
> >sure many people were tired of hearing about it after awhile. I'm trying
> >not to turn the list into a chatroom and will take ad nauseum threads
> >offline in the future when appropriate.
> >
>
> Just to set the record straight, that was my statement, not Rich's.
Sorry Keith, I didn't mean to imply that Rich had written the reply. My
email client just inserts the last users' name at the top, as is the case in
this email.
> I personally have no problem with those discussions taking place on
> the list. As a mechanical engineering student, real-life
> applications for these equations are fascinating. I just get way too
> much email to sort through tens of messages to find the new material.
I know exactly what you mean. It takes a major portion of my day just to go
through and throw away all the emails that I'll risk wishing I had saved for
later reading. Another portion is spent reading the others.
> Good luck on your project, it should be a amazingly powerful car.
Thank you! I just hope it goes *Zoom* and not *Boom*
> Keith
Steve
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--- Begin Message ---
I like (cooper) crouse-hinds cam-lok connectors. But their other welding
connector products go to higher ratings, to 1150A @ 600V.
http://www.crouse-hinds.com/MoldedProducts/customprod/weldingX.pdf
HTH
Seth
Steve wrote:
>
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> > Behalf Of Rod Hower
> >
>
> (snip)
>
> > Since the existing control
> > was not bolted down I unplugged all of the connectors and re-installed the
> > spare control at the sub division entrance. I was only delayed by 5
> > minutes!
>
> (snip)
>
> > Rod
>
> I wonder just how much I should worry about arcing across these connectors.
> I hope to have around 200 VDC at around 2000 amps under full power through
> some of them. Can anyone recommend connectors that can handle this and
> don't weigh a ton?
>
> Steve
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Also, I found that with a 144V pack, the ADC 9" would top out at 6000 rpm,
> which was perfect.
>
at 6k what bat amps are you pulling?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
That particular 6SV that Matt has that you are talking about was in the load
of parts I picked up at TDM. As you noted , it was not from a Ranger, it was
from a large box type van that is still setting behind their building. They
have done a number of different EV projects, although that is not the bulk
of their business. They did a concept car for CARB, the prototype GEM NEV
and a few others. They have also done a number of CNG units. They just
finished remanufacturing Glacier Park's 1936 White tour buses, a project
sponsored by Ford, and they really look nice. They have even converted 1 of
the EV Rangers they built to an ICE. But they have never put a Siemens setup
in a Ranger.
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: Ranger EVs Still Around?
> Apparently, TDM made more units than you know about. I recently helped
> a man who brought the Siemens 6SV long inverter, pulled from a van,
> which had TDM software loaded in it. AT ONE TIME TDM installed and
> programmed these units not only for Ford.
>
> Victor
>
> BORTEL wrote:
> >
> > Jeremy,
> > The motor/controller/charger in the TDM version of the Ford Ranger EV
were
> > made by Northrop-Grumman (Westinghouse), not by Siemens. I was just at
TDM
> > Thanksgiving week picking up the remaining Ranger EV parts from their
> > inventory. There are 7 of us across the US that own most of the units
> > produced by TDM for Ford.
> > Dan Bortel
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jeremy Maus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:34 AM
> > Subject: RE: Ranger EVs Still Around?
> >
> > > Hi List.
> > >
> > > I better speak up here. I am working for Visteon - the spinoff from
ford
> > that
> > > supplied the EV parts to Ford. Th!nk then took over EV Ranger
support.
> > Now ?
> > >
> > > 1. The motor is, in my opinion, very well integrated into the
driveaxle.
> > I
> > > don't know why you would want to upgrade it. The controls were
designed
> > to
> > > limit torque from the motor to avoid wheel spin. Top speed should be
like
> > 90mph
> > > and power into it can be more than the inverter gives it now. - just
what
> > I have
> > > heard don't know for sure.
> > >
> > > Victor, the prototype TDM build rangers used siemens systems. But the
> > > production version built at MSX has the, in my opinion, well
engineered
> > motor
> > > axle assembly. Th e motor and gears are submerged in oil.
> > >
> > > 2. The inverter is not that powerfull, but I would say designed well.
> > The
> > > logic and gate drive circuits are on different sides of the board.
This
> > > inverter passed strict EMC/EMI requirements, not possible if the hi
> > voltage and
> > > logic are together.
> > >
> > > It should be easy to put a more powerfull inverte in place of the the
TIM.
> > You
> > > will lose the rev limiting and low battery modes.
> > >
> > > 3. The EV Rangers must have been sold. They ordered enough parts for
10
> > years
> > > of repair. They are required to do this if they sell a vehicle.
> > >
> > > 4. The batteries are made at the East Penn. - 8V AGM type. Same
case as
> > the
> > > EV1 12V modules but double the plates. The biggest improvement would
be
> > > regulators on the batteries. With regs battery life would double to
> > quadruple.
> > >
> > > Gary Graunke, if you would like to discuss design flaws with the Ford
> > Inverters,
> > > please talk to me directly. I would like any input to improve other
> > inverters
> > > we are designing.
> > >
> > > Happy Holidays,
> > >
> > > Jeremy Maus
> > > Belleville, MI
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > http://www.emidget.info
> > > _____
> > > __/__|__\__
> > > =D-------/ - - \
> > > `-'O'---'O'-'
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Victor Tikhonov
> > >
> > > Jim Coate wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mason Convey wrote:
> > > > > A few questions regarding the production Ford Ranger EVs...
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, what he said... good questions. I'll add one more:
> > > >
> > > > 4. How "hackable" are they? As in if change battery pack capacity,
> > > > voltage, etc. can a mere mortal alter the charger to match? Ditto
for
> > > > the controller, "fuel" gage, etc. Or if add a different charger does
the
> > > > controller then get confused?
> > > >
> > > > Or would one of Victor's AC drives bolt right in? :-)
> > >
> > > All indications suggest that it will: AC motors for Ford Rangers
> > > made by Ballard (type A312V67 MG) are just Siemens 1PV51xx series
> > > motors, from which front flanges are removed and gear box bolted in.
> > >
> > > The motors look identical up to and including cables locations
> > > and fittings (and even casted loops for lifting are the same).
> > > wonder how Ballard got away with copyright issues...
> > >
> > > If I were a truck fan and had dead Ranger, I'd remove the
> > > motor and install complete Siemens system. I believe, Gary
> > > Graunke mentioned that there are inexcusable design flaws
> > > in the Inverter - hi voltage components and PCB traces
> > > are in close proximity with low voltage logic circuit.
> > >
> > > Victor
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
Well a new high water mark....
These are "Apparent Powers" numbers. Just taken with meters.
450 VDC @ 23.4 AMPS For a output wattage of 10,530
>From A line power of 51.9 amps of 212.3 VAC Drawn wattage of 11,018
This is 235.6 volts without Sag. The other house sagged about 10 volts.
This place sags over 20 volts.
Now if you do the math that's %95.57 efficient. Power factor is at or
over 99.9 That's 488 watts of losses at full scream. The fans don't
come off of idle while doing this, and the windows are all steamed up.
IF I had a stiff 240+ volts I would deliver 12Kw while drawing 12.5Kw.
If I could get all my clients to run this high.... I wouldn't need more
heatsink....
These are the best power in to power out numbers I have seen.
Lee Hart, do the Vicors do this or better from the plug to the battery
post?
This is another clear reason for going as high a Battery voltage as
possible.
Gotta go boil more water....
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*Prestolite motor
*16 x 8-volt US Flooded batteries
* Curtis 1221 controller
What might be the benefits/disadvantages of using a set of relays that would
bypass the controller and connect the total 128-volt pack directly to the
motor for brief periods?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roger,
When I built my first VW Bug conversion back in the 80s,' I had a micro
switch that was actuated
by the pedal that would engage when the pedal was "to the metal". The car
was in, what I used to call
turbo boost, direct battery to motor. The controller was very happy(and
cool) to be bypassed with a relay.
I picked up some MPH too.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Daisley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:35 PM
Subject: Crowbar switch?
> *Prestolite motor
> *16 x 8-volt US Flooded batteries
> * Curtis 1221 controller
>
> What might be the benefits/disadvantages of using a set of relays that
would
> bypass the controller and connect the total 128-volt pack directly to the
> motor for brief periods?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Introducing NetZero Long Distance
1st month Free!
Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to All!
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My GE controller actually has this feature built in. Engaging the
bypass contactor gains you a little bit more efficiency and a couple
extra volts to the motor (higher speeds).
However, the GE controller measures motor current and voltage and
compares them to pack voltage and throttle position and will only engage
the contactor when conditions are such that it wouldn't be too much
current for the contactor to handle. I think motor voltage has to be
90% of pack voltage, throttle has to be at 75% or more, etc.
On Thu, 2002-12-19 at 23:35, Roger Daisley wrote:
> *Prestolite motor
> *16 x 8-volt US Flooded batteries
> * Curtis 1221 controller
>
> What might be the benefits/disadvantages of using a set of relays that would
> bypass the controller and connect the total 128-volt pack directly to the
> motor for brief periods?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor you may be right.
One of the original EV Ranger guys led me to believe that they based the
production version controller and motor off of Siemens parts. So the motors and
controller are probably interchangeable like you say. But they were
assembled/made by Ford/Visteon.
Happy Holidays.
Jeremy
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Victor Tikhonov
> > > All indications suggest that it will: AC motors for Ford Rangers
> > > made by Ballard (type A312V67 MG) are just Siemens 1PV51xx series
> > > motors, from which front flanges are removed and gear box bolted in.
> > >
> > > Victor
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd be curious about this as well.... seems like a good way to have a
"turbo" button. Instead of a NOS boost, you just hit this switch.
Something similar was talked about a bit last month for use with a set of
Evercell batteries (that are a bit "softer" under high load) for the normal
pack, and a set of 14AH hawkers for occassional Waylanding (the use of
electric motors to create tire smoking fun) - with more discussion on ways
to isolate one system from the other, or recharge one from the other. Don't
know if anybody actually TRIED something like this, but it seems that it
might work. I'm not quite in that realm yet (my EV restoration is a very
slow process right now) so I may have missed the rest, but it should be in
the archives from a month or more ago.
The drag racers might have more information on what could stand up to that
much juice. The first disadvantage I would think of would be the possibility
of welding your contactor closed at full throttle. Exciting, but I don't
need quite that much excitement. Next would be something that won't burn or
pit too badly.
Also, got to make sure the current doesn't come back through the controller
the other way.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Daisley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:35 PM
Subject: Crowbar switch?
> *Prestolite motor
> *16 x 8-volt US Flooded batteries
> * Curtis 1221 controller
>
> What might be the benefits/disadvantages of using a set of relays that
would
> bypass the controller and connect the total 128-volt pack directly to the
> motor for brief periods?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
