EV Digest 4563
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Recall: A/C motor problems
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) A/C Motor Problems
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Questions regarding driving an EV
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: E-Meter Questions
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Questions regarding driving an EV
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What to do with excess regen power
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: What to do with excess regen power
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: What to do with excess regen power
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Personal Interest (now with more hybrid truck talk!)
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: li-poly batteries
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Archives (was Newbie)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Enthusiastic newby looking for good advice
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: A/C motor problems
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Recall: A/C motor problems
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Riker TH!NK City EV news
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Riker TH!NK City EV news
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: li-poly batteries
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Enthusiastic newby looking for good advice
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: A/C motor problems
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Newbie
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: charging fumes in garage
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Zebra Batteries - Update
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Wayland Invitational Street Drags
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: A/C motor problems
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Zebra Batteries - Update
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Zebra Batteries - Update
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: A/C motor problems
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
28) Re: Zebra Batteries - Update
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Super Capacitors and Li-Ion pack in parallel
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Wilson, Jeff, VBAVACO would like to recall the message, "A/C motor
problems".
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Here's the problem... When I press on the accelerator, the motors are
> bucking
>and the tires don't turn. I disconnected the drive belts (for those that
>don't
>know, the E-10s have a drive belt system). It's amazing how strong those
>belts
>are and how difficult they are to get off without directions. Anyway, I got
>the
>belts off without any damage to them. Now when I press on the accelerator,
>the
>motors just kind of shutter back and forth rather than spin. Without any
>power
>they spin quite freely and smoothly by hand. Put on the power and they act
>like
>they don't know which way to turn. Anyone out there with A/C motor >knowledge
>have any ideas? Anyone with an E-10 that has done this before?
>Sounds a bit like what happened to my Prizm. On my car there is a speed
>reference sensor on each motor axle. Little HP part, same as they use in
>printers to find axle position. It's used for figuring out where the
>motor is for programming the vector control. Remove that and the
>controller has no clue where the motor is.
>Chris
Chris, this could also be a problem. I will recheck the wireing to make sure
the speed sensor is connected properly. It makes sense.
Jeff Wilson
USA (Ret)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unfortunately there isn't an easy answer to this question.
In simple terms acceleration is all about torque at the wheels. The more
torque you can get to the wheels, the faster you will accelerate.
When it comes to EVs, there are at least four different items that
directly effect your wheel torque: the tranny, the motor, the controller,
and the batteries.
The tranny multiplies torque in lower gears, for a given motor torque you
might have 3 or 4 times as much torque output in 1st gear as you do in
4th.
You've seen the motor torque charts so you know that series wound motors
develope tons of torque at low RPMs and drop off at high RPMs.
However, the torque on a series motor is directly related to the current
it draws. If you limit the current then you limit the torque.
The last two items, mentioned above, limit current. Controllers limit
current to prevent the smoke from escaping. Let that smoke out of a
controller and it won't work anymore.
Batteries limit current because their voltage drops as current goes up.
Eventually you reach a point where the voltage has dropped to the point
where it can't push any more current through the motor/controller.
If the controller has a lower current limit than your batteries, then you
don't really have to concern yourself with the batteries limit.
So you need to look at how the batteries/controller/motor work as a unit
and figure out at what RPM the controller will come out of torque limit.
For a given battery voltage this RPM point will be the same regardless of
which gear you are in.
So, whether you need to shift up or down to get better acceleration,
depends on a mix of all of the above factors.
If your controller is still in current limit, then shifting UP will SLOW
down your acceleration. You've switched to a gear with a lower torque
multiplication, but can't get any more torque out of the motor/controller
because it's already delivering it's maximum torque output.
In this case shifting DOWN might give you more torque. However shifting
down might put the motors RPM over the current limit point. If this is
far enough over the current limit, then the torque drop off might be more
than the torque advantage of the lower gear. In this case, staying in the
same gear gives you the best acceleration.
If gear you are in is high enough that you are way above the RPM where the
controller comes out of current limit, then shift UP will give you more
acceleration. Idealy when cruising along on the highway, you want a
fairly RPM because this lowers I2R losses and helps reduce motor heating.
So, generally speaking, when cruising at highway speeds it often helps to
shift up when you want to pass.
With a little work, you can figure out which gear gives you the best
acceleration when you are traveling at a given speed.
For example, the batteries(8V GC) in my pickup truck where the limiting
factor on it's acceleration. They could only produce about 300-350 amps.
So in my truck 1st was best up to about 5mph, 2nd was best from ~ 5-20mph,
and 3rd was best from 25-55mph. If was was traveling at 40mph in 3rd
gear, then shifting (up or down) wouldn't help, in fact it would lower
acceleration.
> Hello everyone,
>
> I've been doing a quite a bit of reading about converting a car and
> all the various information about motors, controllers, batteries,
> chargers and so on. I've been reading books on the subject and
> consulting both this wonderful mailing list and many Internet sites.
> One thing that's kind of boggled my mind is the actual process of
> driving an EV. Let me explain about a week ago or so I saw a post on
> the EV list that said that in an EV one has to up shift to accelerate,
> now pardon my ignorance at the moment, but this would mean say going
> from 2nd to 3rd or 4th to accelerate and that one should do most of
> their driving in a higher gear say 2nd or 3rd depending on the ratios.
> Am I correct in thinking this, is this in fact true? I did notice one
> thing about electric motor specs and I'm no engineer so please bear
> with me. OK an electric motor, say an ADC 6.5"
>
> - Pulls more amps at start up at lower RPMs than at higher RPMs
> - Has all/most of its torque at lower RPMs
> - Must not be revved to high.
>
> OK with all this in mind then one needs to put the transmission in a
> higher gear (3 or 4) to be able to take advantage of the torque that
> the motor generates at lower RPMs because in such a gear the motor
> would be able to provide the higher torque for acceleration since it's
> turning at a slower RPM? Then it would also makes sense that since you
> want to keep your amperage down during regular driving to conserve
> battery autonomy you would drive in a lower gear (2-3) because the
> motor is spinning at a higer RPM and pulling less amps, but has much
> less torque which isn't a problem since at a cruising speed the
> inertia of the car helps keep the car at speed.
>
> Hope some of this makes sense.
>
> thanks,
>
> Stefano
> http://fest-ev-a.slandi.net
> 91 Festiva L electric conversion coming soon...
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Myles Twete wrote:
One suggestion to folks that I've found works well: once you have your
Link10/Emeter wiring figured out, rather than remember which wire to
disconnect before others when you have to remove the meter for whatever
reason, instead, attach a connector to the back of the Link10 with mating
connector to your wiring harness wires. Then, when you have to service
something in your electric circuit, or remove a battery, just pull the
Link10 connector and no worries.
Someone on the list, maybe Rich Rudman(?) once suggested this to me once
and I'm so glad I listened.
I agree that this makes sense.
But what I'm really interested in knowing is if I _must_ disconnect the
E-meter before opening the Anderson connector and electrically splitting
up my pack in the middle? I don't see any reason why splitting the pack
would fry the E-meter, but with all the talk about stray currents and
frying the E-meter I can't be too sure...
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: Questions regarding driving an EV
>(the limits are now set at 400 amps with the Trojan T-145 batteries because
>the battery terminals are not welded and are mechanical connected. They
>shrink back quite a bit or lose connection torque from 100 inch lbs to 60
>inches lbs every time I go above 400 amps).
> Roland
Roland,
By battery terminals you mean the battery interconnect cables correct? Could
you explain how the shrinkage works? Does that mean that you retorque the
connections every couple times you approach 400 amps?
Does that also mean that if the cables were welded/soldered that you could go
above 400 amps?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Aug 2005 at 22:15, Ken Trough wrote:
> It seems like regen is a liability in an EV ...
Surely you must have driven an EV with regen. I'm surprised you view it
that way. The first time I experienced regen, I decided it was worth quite
a bit of effort.
I agree though that trying to implement regen with a series motor is kind of
like trying to teach a cat to fetch. It's possible, but there's some
question as to whether the results are really worth the effort.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Does your transmission have any settings besides park, neutral,
reverse, and drive?
It only has neutral from the list above. It's
a manual, so I have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th.
And reverse, yeah.
<g>
We bought the manual because it has better
over-the-road mileage numbers and we don't
live in an area where one sits for hours in
traffic stirring the gearchange from first to
second and back endlessly.
Regenerative braking is quite strong, even
against the overdrive. It'll hold the car
at a pretty constant speed going down an 8%
grade. Much stronger than compression braking
even if it's downshifted -- it's a 1200cc gas
engine trying to hold back a car carrying a
battery pack and two adults.
I like the regen, I just wish it could work
even once it's charged up the battery pack
even though that means "wasting" all that
wonderful momentum in the form of heat. I
could see brake pads good for 100,000+ miles
because the regen would take care of slowing
the car to ca. 10 mph all the time. It just
bothers me to have to rely on dirty old
friction when some nice clean magnetic fields
will do all the hard work.
<g>
Of course I could also see a lot of extra
complexity, more cost, and other problems
associated with having a large hot resistive
grid slung under an already low car.
Great car, even though the "mild hybrid" is
more like "electric turbocharging" than being
a "real" EV. Last spring I took a little
5,000 mile drive that cost me only $120 in
fuel. It almost costs more to eat on a long
trip than it does to drive.
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hays wrote:
>It's a manual,
For some reason, I thought it was a CVT.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apologies if this is oozing OT, but he's gonna convert it
anyway...
I know nothing about ethanol, where to get it, how to properly
"run" it, etc... but it seems like something worth pursuing? Comments?
Of course you'll find "gasohol" in any gas station. Your
truck will also run on up to 85% alcohol mixtures. Since
you're gonna be in the heart of Corn Country you may
find some stations with "E85" for sale. "Running" it
entails putting it in the tank and driving the vehicle.
The mass-flow sensor in the fuel line tells the engine
computers what's on the way, and they make all
the changes to timing and injector volume and so on.
Things to remember about ethanol: It loves water. It
will absorb it from the atmosphere. This hygroscopic
quality is what makes "gas line dryer" so effective.
It is less stable therefore than straight gasoline. If
you're storing the vehicle or letting it sit for long
periods, fill it with straight gas if you can, or not more
than E10. It is also harder to get started in the cold,
which is why they blend in 15% gasoline to E85. If
you want to burn E100 you'll need to add a preheater
and a bunch of other stuff. Too much like work if
you're going to E it anyway, because I don't believe
an FFV will run on E100, though it will run on "E0".
Powerwise, ethanol has essentially 50% of the heat
energy of gasoline per unit volume. Figure that E85
will give you approximately a 45% reduction in mileage
over burning straight gasoline in an unmodified engine.
Ethanol has an "effective octane" of 112, which is why
the go-fast guys use it in high-compression engines.
That's a whole other discussion! In an otherwise
unmodified auto engine, the only real advantage
ethanol has is that it's classed as a "renewable" fuel and
the major manufacturers can get nifty tax and regulatory
breaks from making a few flexible fuel vehicles which
they sell at a loss so they can crank out more SUVs under
their CAFE protocols.
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Robin, not many people are using li-poly, as they are new technology.
However Cliff's racing car www.proev.com is really putting the Kokam's
through their paces. Looks quite promising. There are a number more people
on the list who have experience with LiIon (Thundersky) - check the archive
in the past few months for debates between the two technologies.
There are many who are using the Siemens systems and I think all who use
them are very pleased (I am). I do not think there are any on this list who
are using the MES motors (yet), although they do have a good history with
OEMs in Europe.
Victor www.metricmind.com will have a lot more to say about both these
topics as he did distribute Thundersky, Kokam (not sure if he still does
though), also he is the distributor for Siemens and MES.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrie, Robin
Sent: August 9, 2005 3:21 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: li-poly batteries
Hi all, first time post, been listening for a while though.
First off, im currently developing a fiat 500 conversion for use in the
city. Using an ac drive system (siemens or mes-dea I think) and the best
batteries I can get my hands on.
I found out about the "fiamp" conversion done by Marko Mongillo..
however his email link is dead. Anyone know any more about him or his
car? I understand it was a dc system with lead acid batteries.. i think
with my current 40 ah 375v pack coming in at 160 kgs (if memory serves me..
paperwork is at home) I should be able to make rather a nippy car.
Li-poly seems a far better solution than li-ion at the moment despite the
extra cost, due to the current handling..
Anyone actually used li-poly in an ev yet? How does the ideal
charge/dischage regime differ from other batteries? Is there any way I can
realistically epect to improve on the 500 duty cycles the manufacturer
(kokam) quotes?
Finally, of the little advice ive had so far, ive been steered towards
the siemens drive systems, rather than the mes-dea ones. With very
little info to go on I don't know why. Anyone got experience with the
mes motors/controllers? They seem slightly more compact, and a bit
cheaper than the siemens systems.
Thanks all...
Robin.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Aug 2005 at 20:14, Brad Jensen wrote:
> Ok, I can't get the archives to come up. I get object not found at
> http://www.crest.org/ev-list-archive
There are at least four archives:
http://crest.org/discussion/ev/ (message archive 1997 - early 2003)
http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/ (current digest archive)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/ (ad-supported digest archive)
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/ (ad-supported message
archive)
And at least one more closed archive whose URL I've forgotten.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Aug 2005 at 22:46, Philip Marino wrote:
> I have actually met people who
> voluntarily drive cars with 0-60 times of ( gasp!!) 12 seconds or more, and
> they can keep up with traffic and enter highways safely.
Not that I want to sound preachy, but quite a few of us have happily owned
vehicles that took between 15 and 20 seconds to reach that somewhat
overrated speed.
Disadvantages? Once in a while you might have to wait an extra couple of
minutes on an expressway ramp for traffic to clear, instead of bullying your
way into a raging river of traffic, but that's about it, IMO.
Plan ahead, eschew FUD, etc.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Aug 2005 at 13:23, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Without any power they spin quite freely and smoothly by hand. Put on
> the power and they act like they don't know which way to turn.
Did you hook up the speed sensor? This is the small cable coming out of the
back of the motor (the end opposite the pulley).
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Aug 2005 at 10:06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Wilson, Jeff, VBAVACO would like to recall the message, "A/C motor
> problems".
Sorry, Jeff! The EV list doesn't speak Gatesese. <grin>
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Aug 2005 at 19:29, Chip Gribben wrote:
> I just finished updating the Riker site with all the TH!NK City
> information.
I don't see anything on that web site. I mean NOTHING shows up (except the
links page). Every page that comes up is blank except About Riker, which
returns a 404 error.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The site works for me, though I'll confirm that the About Riker link is
broken.
--chris
David Roden said:
> On 8 Aug 2005 at 19:29, Chip Gribben wrote:
>
>> I just finished updating the Riker site with all the TH!NK City
>> information.
>
> I don't see anything on that web site. I mean NOTHING shows up (except
> the
> links page). Every page that comes up is blank except About Riker, which
> returns a 404 error.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I only played with R/C lipo to learn first about them, their are impressive
and near perfect for EV despite their short life, you have: power, low
weight, low volume and lots of wh/kg :^)
Problems: calendar life, cyclic life and they die or fail (could be
dangerous) very quickly if abused.
Their calendar life (very hard to obtain from constructor) is about 3 to 5
years before big and continuous capacity drop.
cyclic life about 500 to 80% initial capacity (only if never abused)
if you want more cycle:
charge at 1C not more (there is no difference in cyclic life from C/2 or 1C
but there is one charging upper 1C)
stop charge at 4,1V(not 4,2)
stop discharge at 3,2V (not 3V or worst 2,8V) problem is not discharging
them deep, it is charging without hurting deep discharged batteries...
never run them hot (more than 50°)
if not used for few weeks (storage) keep them at 3,7V and cold ambiance, not
freezing :^) but lesser is better: 0 to 10°C is perfect.
don't hurt them long time with claimed constant current (in fact use
constant current as your limit current)
Last chinese quote i had was $30 for 12Ah cells but "quality" not tested at
the moment, no time...
hope this help
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrie, Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:20 PM
Subject: li-poly batteries
> Hi all, first time post, been listening for a while though.
>
>
>
> First off, im currently developing a fiat 500 conversion for use in the
> city. Using an ac drive system (siemens or mes-dea I think) and the
> best batteries I can get my hands on.
>
>
>
> I found out about the "fiamp" conversion done by Marko Mongillo..
> however his email link is dead. Anyone know any more about him or his
> car? I understand it was a dc system with lead acid batteries.. i think
> with my current 40 ah 375v pack coming in at 160 kgs (if memory serves
> me.. paperwork is at home) I should be able to make rather a nippy car.
> Li-poly seems a far better solution than li-ion at the moment despite
> the extra cost, due to the current handling..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Anyone actually used li-poly in an ev yet? How does the ideal
> charge/dischage regime differ from other batteries? Is there any way I
> can realistically epect to improve on the 500 duty cycles the
> manufacturer (kokam) quotes?
>
>
>
> Finally, of the little advice ive had so far, ive been steered towards
> the siemens drive systems, rather than the mes-dea ones. With very
> little info to go on I don't know why. Anyone got experience with the
> mes motors/controllers? They seem slightly more compact, and a bit
> cheaper than the siemens systems.
>
>
>
> Thanks all...
>
>
>
> Robin.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm yes you can build a vehicle that meets these specs, but it's not going
to be cheap.
You want sports car performance (the vast majority of vehicles on the road
can't do 0-60 in 9 seconds let alone 7-8) and you want fairly long range
(60+ miles).
Challenging, but doable.
If you are going to use Lead-Acid batteries you'll need about 1/2 the
total vehicle weight in batteries to make the range. You'll need advanced
Lead-Acid (Optima YTs or Orbital XCDs) and a powerfull controller to get
that kind of performance in a conversion.
You'd want to use a fairly lightweight aerodynamic vehicle to start with,
Porsche 914, Carmen Ghia, Honda CRX, etc.
The other option is to go with a custom built, very lightweight,
aerodynamic vehicle with a moderate powered controller and still at least
50% battery weight.
Or spend tons of money on LiIon batteries and UltraCaps ;-).
> My other main concern is keeping up with relatively fast
> paced traffic, as I live in an area were you're likely to get run off the
> road at speeds lower than 70 MPH. If I were to go the EV route, I would
> need something that could accelerate quickly (preferrably 0-60 in 7-8
> seconds) and be able to hit a top speed of 75-80 MPH. It would also have
> to make my 13 mile (one way) daily commute with some power to spare for
> lunch breaks and running errands after work. I mostly stay local, but
> every now and then make a trip to my hometown which is about 50 miles
> away, While I would more than likely keep my current gas car for these
> trips, I'd like to know if it's possible for an EV !
> to make t
> y requirements feasable, or am I asking to much from my desired EV? As
> this list seems to be the best collection of real knowledge that I've come
> across, I was hoping to "pick some brains" and hopefully end my confusion.
> I thank you all (in advance) for your tollorance, and hope to hear back
> soon.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
Thanks. I'm going to check that this evening. I did connect the 9 pin
connector that I think is the speed sensor and will double check that I'm
getting good connection.
Jeff
-------------- Original message --------------
> On 9 Aug 2005 at 13:23, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Without any power they spin quite freely and smoothly by hand. Put on
> > the power and they act like they don't know which way to turn.
>
> Did you hook up the speed sensor? This is the small cable coming out of the
> back of the motor (the end opposite the pulley).
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> My name is Brad Jensen and I am the proud new owner of 3 1998 Ford Ranger
> Evs.
-snip-
> I am interested in using more reliable batteries such as those in the
> hybrids.
> Has anyone done a battery transplant from a hybrid? I can imagine that
> they are more complicated than they look. The seem to be selling on
> e-bay for about $500.
Might work, but you'll need a whole bunch of them. Probably at least 10
packs for any decent range. You'll probably also have to
reprogram/replace the motor controller and/or charger in the Rangers. I
think they're programed specifically for the type of batteries they used.
> Another project I am interested in is building a grease car pusher trailer
> for my Ranger. I was thinking of using the back end of a diesel vanagon.
> Anyone have any tips? Vanagons are hard to find here in Michigan.
You might consider using the front end from a Diesel rabbit. Diesel
vanagons were pretty rare, the rabbits were much more common.
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.0/63 - Release Date: 8/3/2005
P.S. Please turn off the virus notification. Considering the fact that
many viruses add the exact same notice, it's pretty useless and really
amounts to nothing more than advertising aka SPAM.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
That is some good advice, but i don't think your
description of duct location make much sense for a
battery charging room.
When (over)charging batteries, hydrogen is the
flammable gas that is produced at the battery. As i am
sure you know, H2 is extremely light and will collect
at the top of your garage or battery compartment, not
along the floor as with most HC fuels. Thus the
ventilation system should sweep the top of the room,
not the bottom.
I would reccomend that if you charge in your garage,
you should install a small brushless ventilation fan
somewhere near the top of your garage. The fan should
be set up to exhaust outside and should be interlocked
with your charger. (also, first make sure your charger
is working right and you aren't cooking your
batteries).
the National Electric Code has a table of minimum
ventilation flow required for indoor charging and it
is something like 74 CFM for a single vehicle charged
off a 120 V 40 A branch circuit (i think it is article
625 of the NEC).
good luck. be safe.
~fortunat
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Lance,
>
> In battery charger rooms, which I design the
> electrical systems for, they must be made somewhat
> explosive proof. The do not have the full explosive
> proof and arc proof devices as a for gasoline or
> other fuels.
> ...
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
Although they may not be a suitable battery for a personal EV because of
the warm up time, they may be a suitable battery for an industrial
application.
What is the warm up time on this battery?
If you mean ready to drive time, it is zero, just like any other
battery. It uses its onw energy to run its internal heaters
to keep it hot.
If sulphur is frozen (room temp), it takes about 24 hours to
unfreeze the battery and this is quite stressful process.
I'm considering one of these for
my conversion.
Thanks!
The good application fot such a battery is a taxi or the type
pf vehicle running almost non-stop. In a conversion the battery
is idle most of the hours. Ans it is not that powerful, requires
CAN interface to the controller to work properly (or extra batery
controller if you don't speak CAN). I'm no longer so convinced that
this is the beat overall battery foe an individual conversion.
It is good one, just too many specifics, so it doesn't fit
generic universal application very well.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
NEDRA is proud to announce a new sanctioned event, The Wayland Invitational
Street Drags. Open to all street legal NEDRA drag racers. Come out and go
head to head with the gas boys at Portland International Raceway (PIR)
Friday September 2nd 2005. Gates open at 6 PM. Please note that there is a
90dBA sound limit for this event :-) This will be a first annual event. You
are all invited to join John in this first historical racing event either as
a spectator or participant. We have all heard John's exciting stories of
racin the gas boys at PIR. Here is your chance to join in the fun. Track
info at www.portlandraceway.com
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA President
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 8/9/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
Please make sure the rotor encoders (shaft speed sensors) are
hooked up. Else you will always see symptoms you observe now.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think so. The motor controllers have color coded connectors and the
motors have like connections. They are red white and blue. So I think they
should be OK. Victor and Jim both suggested (late last night) that I try
switching any two wires on each motor to change the phase. I haven't tried
it yet, but will tonight after I get home.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 07:56:57AM -0700, Don Cameron wrote:
> > Although they may not be a suitable battery for a personal
> > EV because of the warm up time, they may be a suitable
> > battery for an industrial application.
>
> What is the warm up time on this battery? I'm considering one
> of these for my conversion.
There is no warm up time in practical terms. The battery initially
needs 24hrs for its internal heaters to bring it up to operating
temperature (i.e. to melt it), however, once up to operating temperature
it is kept there so there is no further warm up time concern.
The battery is well insulated and is packaged (with the heaters) inside
a stainless steel box, so although some of your battery energy is
consumed maintaining it at operating temperature, the consumption is not
excessive enough to worry about unless the vehicle is going to be left
parked for an extended period (such as while you vacation). In this
case, you let the battery cool (freeze), and upon your return, you have
to turn the heaters back on and wait until it remelts before you can use
it. On the plus side, the battery loses no capacity while frozen, so
once up to operating temperature it is at whatever SOC it had when you
parked it.
The Zebra battery (NaNiCl) is a very interesting technology in that it
totally eliminates the need to worry about battery heating or cooling
since the battery contains its own thermal management system built in
and it operates at a temperature well above any terrestrial ambient.
The biggest downside is that the manufacturer of the Zebra battery has
not been willing to sell to individuals. Period. There has always been
the promise that eventually they would be in a position to sell to
non-OEMs, but I'll believe that day has arrived when someone reports
having bought and taken possession of their Zebra battery & charger.
The other challenge with this battery is that it is optimised more for
specific energy than for specific power. So, a single 278V (IIRC)
battery has a peak power of only 32kW, although it does provide 16kWh
(C/2) in a compact 430lb package.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> requires CAN interface to the controller to work
> properly (or extra batery controller if you don't speak CAN).
Has the Zebra battery and its system changed then? Last data I got from
Dr. Dustmann indicated that the built in battery management interface
provided a PWM signal to control the charger, not a CAN signal. Dr.
Dustmann did suggest that the CAN display and monitor interface were
quite useful and therefore recommended, however they were not mandatory.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Victor. I'm going to double check those tonight to make sure they
are correctly connected. I believe that is a 9 pin serial port connector into
the controller. I thought I had those connected correctly, but I will double
check again.
Jeff
-------------- Original message --------------
> Jeff,
>
> Please make sure the rotor encoders (shaft speed sensors) are
> hooked up. Else you will always see symptoms you observe now.
>
> Victor
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I think so. The motor controllers have color coded connectors and the
> > motors have like connections. They are red white and blue. So I think they
> > should be OK. Victor and Jim both suggested (late last night) that I try
> > switching any two wires on each motor to change the phase. I haven't tried
> > it yet, but will tonight after I get home.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is not quite what I got. The CAN isn't required, but some
substitution for it is.
Here is Cord's message dated Feb 18 2002:
============================================================
Dear Mr Tikhonov,
thank you for your continuous interest in our ZEBRA battery. Indeed we are
now in a better delivery situation compared to one year ago.
Regarding you comments may I try to give you some answers:
1. One battery per vehicle is o.k. if the vehicle is not more than 2000
ponds GVW. We operate the renault TWINGO with one battery Z5C and it has a
very good performance for dayly use.
2. Drive train and battery should be matched, the battery has a peak power
of 32kW ( enclosed data sheet ) A CAN communication is highla recommended.
If not available an additinal unit for 1500,-CHF is required to transform
the CAN into to discrete signals. We regards this as cost without added
value.
3. Please let me know if you would like to receive a formal offer.
Best regards
Cord Dustmann
(See attached file: zebZ5C.pdf)(See attached file: caricabatteria.pdf)(See
attached file: G Diagnostic kit.pdf)
Dr. C.-H. Dustmann
ZEBRA Battery Department
MES-DEA SA
Via Laveggio 15
CH-6855 Stabio
tel. +41 91 6415352
fax +41 91 6415395
==============================================
Roger Stockton wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
requires CAN interface to the controller to work
properly (or extra batery controller if you don't speak CAN).
Has the Zebra battery and its system changed then? Last data I got from
Dr. Dustmann indicated that the built in battery management interface
provided a PWM signal to control the charger, not a CAN signal. Dr.
Dustmann did suggest that the CAN display and monitor interface were
quite useful and therefore recommended, however they were not mandatory.
Cheers,
Roger.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Here's another concept. A DC/DC boost converter can
> potentially supply
> some of the current needed for driving off the cap
> bank down to 0v.
> These are not 100% efficient however, and making one
> capable of
> supplying 75 amps would be quite huge. Rather, I
see : http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_bdc412347.htm
not too big actually, though this one has a low
voltage limit at 100 V, so you can't go all the way to
0 V. This one is used to allow a (more or less
constant voltage) battery pack to supplemet a fuel
cell during rapid transients (fuel cell voltage varies
with current).
Similar devices are used in the Honda FCX to allow a
supercapacitor bank to be preferrentially charged and
discharged.
~fortunat
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