EV Digest 4587
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Alternative batteries - was : RE: LA Times front page article
on EVs today
by Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Project ideas (long)
by "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Variable electricity rates
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Powerpoint presentation is down. Ryan?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: LA Times front page article on EVs today
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: PFC-30
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 200VDC to 120VAC Inverter
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Alternative batteries - was : RE: LA Times front page article
on EVs today
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Variable electricity rates
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Variable electricity rates
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Powerpoint presentation is down. Ryan?
by "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) BMS - was PFC-30
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: LA Times front page article on EVs today
by "Rodriguez, Jennifer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: LA Times front page article on EVs today
by tom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Alternative batteries - was : RE: LA Times front page article on
EVs today
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Good grief. Learn some etiquette before asking people to do your work for
you.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michaela Merz
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:05 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Alternative batteries - was : RE: LA Times front page article on
EVs today
Hello nerds :)
In order to make EVs more appealing to the Joe-everybodies, we need more
range. That means better batteries. What is the chance that some of the
people here start a kind of co-op to be able to handle (charge, thermal
handling) and to order i.e. lithium batteries from Saft, Valence or
Thundersky in numbers?
mm.
> Neon John wrote:
>
>> Damn, I hate that kind of article. It perpetuates the myth that all
>> EV drivers are eco-fruitcakes. It un-does all the work us un-True
>> Believers do to disassociate EVs and ourselves from the fruitcakes.
>> I'm still waiting, in vane, it appears, for an article that shows
>> Joe-everybodies driving EVs because they're fun and because they're
>> cheap and convenient to operate.
>
> Once again John has tried as hard as he could to anger his audience
> here without quite getting himself kicked off. (Not sure what that's
> about, not sure I want to know.) He does raise an interesting point,
> though it's one I think he doesn't get.
>
> "Mainstream" is a point of arrival. Meaning from somewhere else,
> meaning change is involved. Joe-everybody does not initiate change,
> he typically resists it. Let's look at some larger societal changes
> as an illustration.
>
> If it was left up to Joe-everybody, Jim Crowe would still be thriving
> in the south, women wouldn't be allowed to vote and they would hold
> only menial jobs if they had jobs at all. Joe-everybody doesn't care
> that the status quo makes no sense, so he won't rise up to make
> changes.
>
> It takes activists, people who will shake things up. Like bra-burning
> bitches (sorry, women behaving in an "un-ladylike" manner),
> charismatic ministers and fist-waving Black Panthers. Sometimes these
> activists are not what "mainstream" society would call model citizens.
> That's the point - to smack society around enough that they'll finally
> see the light. A sad commentary on us, but true nonetheless.
>
> And it takes time. It was only a few years ago that black women
> wearing their hair in corn rows at the office was considered outrageous.
> Jane-everybody doesn't do corn rows. Jane-everybody does what she's told.
> The status quo is very comforting to most people, even concerning
> things as mundane as their cars. Change = uncertainty = bad.
>
> In the world of EVs the opposition is more commercial than societal.
> But those commercial industries are extremely powerful. At the very
> least EVs are seen as an unpredictable new type of product.
> (Remember, uncertainty =
> bad.) At worst EVs might mean dramatically reduced profits. (I think
> that's actually true for the oil industry, since the technology exists
> today to cut our total national consumption by probably a third, maybe
> a half.
> That's why they're pushing hydrogen - it makes no sense in energy
> terms, but it allows them to keep selling product. I think EVs can
> still be profitable for the auto industry, since high-tech prestige
> still sells. But it's a new kind of high-tech, and new = uncertain =
> bad.) Those captains of industry are required by law to maximize
> profits, so that's exactly what they're doing - at the expense of
> society at large.
>
> So John, if those horrible granola-crunching tree huggers and
> bleeding-heart celebrities are the people you love to hate, and it
> gets your knickers all twisted up to see them getting press, you've
> missed the point. They're getting press. Joe-everybody is not. If
> you want to see people who meet your high standards get some coverage
> as well, how are you going to go about doing that?
>
> I'm sure NEDRA would love it if you started a new chapter for them.
> You could replace your cartoonish cheese-wedge CitiCar with a RAV-4EV
> and use it for deliveries from your restaurant and general
> normal-car-type duties.
> (What? An EV used as a normal car?) Then call your local paper and
> TV station to see if you can get some coverage more to your liking.
> Or you can complain about the "fruitcakes". Which is more effective?
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been on this list for many years, but rarely post as I have yet to take
the EV
plunge (started posting more lately). I have come close to starting a project
many times,
but have always put it on the back burner or only spent time dreaming about it.
Now the time has come that I REALLY want to build a fully electric commuter
vehicle.
Gasoline has gotten to the point that it really is more economical (right now)
to drive an
EV over an ICE car. My Honda Accord has 262,000 miles on it and things are
starting to
break (well, more major things now, not just normal wear items).
I thought about doing an S-10 that will have as much weight taken out as
possible: 'glass
flip nose, light bed, light seat, custom dash, etc.
I would like to get some input on a couple of questions.
What have you all found to be the lightest and most aero vehicle to convert? I
live 28.5
miles from work, of which, 22 miles is highway (70mph). I am looking for range,
but must
have a top speed of around 75-80 mph.
Is there another type of vehicle that would be better suited to what I need?
Something
more aerodynamic?
My budget is somewhat generous as this will be my "new" car. The wife and I
decided that I
would be replacing my daily driver with something newer. I am guessing that I
have a
budget of around $18k (home equity power!).
I already have an S-10 that had a wiring fire under the hood that has been
sitting
although I would entertain a completely different car/truck if it would suit my
needs
better.
Needs and situation:
I live in central Florida.
Need a commuter/daily driver replacement.
Carry some guitar equipment at times.
One way range of at least 50 miles would be best.
One-way drive to work is 28.5 miles (can charge at work).
budget of $18k
Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?
--
joe
(digest, but going to switch to full list when I get home)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How common is it that power companies charge variable rates depending on
what time it is consumed?
My power bill is just one rate for 0-500KWH then 500+ KWH is at a
significantly higher rate. Outside the house I have a bubble meter with
all the mechanical gears and a mechanical dial display, so obviously the
power company cannot use a time-variable rate with this equipment.
Is it just industrial consumers, or do certain locales use it for
residential consumers?
Since it looks like many could charge during off-peak hours if needed,
it sure would be nice if we got a lower rate.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi guys!
Awhile back, someone (I think it was Ryan Stotts,
but it's only a guess--) volunteered space for a
powerpoint presentation on EVs that I'd composed. The
most useful pieces were shots of the RAV-4EV, the
Nissan Altra, the Honda EV+, and of course, the EV-1.
I've been told by two interested parties now that
the link is dead. Could you please follow up and find
out why? Is someone not paying their online fees?
(;-p
If someone has/is interested in hosting it, please
provide the link, so that I can update _my_ website.
Most gratefully,
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:57:37 -0400, "Chris Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Neon John wrote:
>
>> Damn, I hate that kind of article. It perpetuates the myth that all
>> EV drivers are eco-fruitcakes. It un-does all the work us un-True
>> Believers do to disassociate EVs and ourselves from the fruitcakes.
>> I'm still waiting, in vane, it appears, for an article that shows
>> Joe-everybodies driving EVs because they're fun and because they're
>> cheap and convenient to operate.
>
>Once again John has tried as hard as he could to anger his audience here
>without quite getting himself kicked off. (Not sure what that's about, not
>sure I want to know.) He does raise an interesting point, though it's one I
>think he doesn't get.
Intolerance of views different from one's own is a hallmark of fundies
everywhere, religious and otherwise. Fortunately it's hard to burn
one at the stake over the net.
BTW, it is considered quite rude to talk in someone's presence about
him in the third person. It doesn't bother me but it does reflect
badly on you.
>
>"Mainstream" is a point of arrival. Meaning from somewhere else, meaning
>change is involved. Joe-everybody does not initiate change, he typically
>resists it. Let's look at some larger societal changes as an illustration.
>
>If it was left up to Joe-everybody, Jim Crowe would still be thriving in the
>south, women wouldn't be allowed to vote and they would hold only menial
>jobs if they had jobs at all. Joe-everybody doesn't care that the status
>quo makes no sense, so he won't rise up to make changes.
>
>It takes activists, people who will shake things up. Like bra-burning
>bitches (sorry, women behaving in an "un-ladylike" manner), charismatic
>ministers and fist-waving Black Panthers. Sometimes these activists are not
>what "mainstream" society would call model citizens. That's the point - to
>smack society around enough that they'll finally see the light. A sad
>commentary on us, but true nonetheless.
This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of societal mechanics. Major
change (what the pundits like to call disruptive events nowadays)
requires both a trigger and a population willing and ready to accept
change. Folks with dime store educations tend to always roll out Jim
Crow and such but the reality is that there have been several "civil
rights" uprisings in the period after the war for Southern
Independence. Historians don't refer to them as that but they were.
The first was, of course, during Reconstruction (sic). The second
major one was before the turn of the century.
What made the 60s different was that the rest of us were amenable to
change. Do you really think the civil rights act of 68 could have
passed if the general population wasn't willing? Do you think women
would have gotten the vote if the population didn't think it was time?
All so-called activists do is catalyze the release of stored energy of
change. Absent that stored energy, activists are ignored here or
arrested and imprisoned (most of the rest of the world.) The Prague
Spring or Tienniman Square are fine examples of the latter.
>
>And it takes time. It was only a few years ago that black women wearing
>their hair in corn rows at the office was considered outrageous.
>Jane-everybody doesn't do corn rows. Jane-everybody does what she's told.
>The status quo is very comforting to most people, even concerning things as
>mundane as their cars. Change = uncertainty = bad.
You probably don't know it but there is a social science called change
management. I've been to school on the topic. One of the
fundamentals of change management is to keep the discomfort level low
but constant. People get used to discomfort caused by gradual change
just as they do any other minor discomfort. Push beyond that
threshold and people rebel. One can look at corporate mergers from a
change management perspective and see clearly why some work and some
don't.
Since activists alone cannot effect disruptive change, they would be
much more successful if they don't try and instead follow the
principles of change management.
I should also note that there is a fundamental difference between
major societal changes such as the civil rights actions and what you
EV fringe want. In the case of civil rights, classes of people were
simply wanting to be treated equal to others. They didn't want to use
the government to take from one class and give to others. (That
remained for the professional beggars to do.)
In stark contrast, you want the government to use its police powers to
take wealth from everyone to fund your particular environmental belief
system (commonly called a religion.) That is morally and logically
wrong. One of the core reasons this country even exists is to get
away from that (Church of England with the king at its head, supported
by confiscation of citizens' wealth and all that stuff.)
>
>In the world of EVs the opposition is more commercial than societal. But
>those commercial industries are extremely powerful. At the very least EVs
>are seen as an unpredictable new type of product. (Remember, uncertainty =
>bad.) At worst EVs might mean dramatically reduced profits. (I think
>that's actually true for the oil industry, since the technology exists today
>to cut our total national consumption by probably a third, maybe a half.
>That's why they're pushing hydrogen - it makes no sense in energy terms, but
>it allows them to keep selling product. I think EVs can still be profitable
>for the auto industry, since high-tech prestige still sells. But it's a new
>kind of high-tech, and new = uncertain = bad.) Those captains of industry
>are required by law to maximize profits, so that's exactly what they're
>doing - at the expense of society at large.
Usual wild statements not supported by fact. As with most radical
fundies, you simply can't conceive of alternative views. You condemn
the people who hold them as greedy, evil, ignorant, etc. That
guarantees your placement out on the fringe in most people's minds.
Even your use of the pejorative term "Joe-Sixpack" reveals that you
somehow see yourself as somehow superior to everyone else because the
Truth(tm) has been revealed to you. Some folks apparently don't like
me calling this a religion but if the shoe fits.....
That most people are reasonably satisfied with the current situation
is self-evident. No one likes to pay higher prices for anything but
in the case of fuel, the adjustment is long overdue. Like most
dynamical systems, overshoot is to be expected before prices settle
down to what the market supports. At $2/gallon for gasoline, the
price had just caught up with inflation. The current situation in the
rest of America is simply overshoot (California, as usual, getting
just what they deserve). I figure gas will settle down in the $2 or
below range, probably by next summer. This adjustment in fuel prices
will probably be the catalyst that triggers wage increases to make up
for the past decade or two where they have not kept up with
inflation. Simply a dynamic economy at work.
What this current spike in energy prices will do is allow innovative
people to ply their trade and come up with new ideas and devices,
things that most of us probably haven't even thought of. It may be
that part of this innovation is a new way to store mobile energy that
none of us has thought of. It may be new battery technology. It may
be breakthroughs in existing battery technology. Nobody knows in
advance.
>
>So John, if those horrible granola-crunching tree huggers and bleeding-heart
>celebrities are the people you love to hate, and it gets your knickers all
>twisted up to see them getting press, you've missed the point. They're
>getting press. Joe-everybody is not. If you want to see people who meet
>your high standards get some coverage as well, how are you going to go about
>doing that?
I could care less about press. Real change rarely comes about at the
end of a TV camera lens. I'm sure there are some folks who would buy
the same brand toilet paper that their favorite star uses but most
could care less.
I promote the EV concept to my friends and customers for the same
reason I promote other "discoveries". I like to share things I've
learned and make life easier for others. When I show someone my
"cheese wedge", we talk about how cheap it is to operate, how simple
it is, how maneuverable it is and how easy it is to park. I'd only
hear the sounds of minds slamming shut if I started bleating
envirowhacko stuff that is self-evidently false. That's a shame since
in this particular area, the ZEV part is mostly true since most of our
power is nuclear.
The problem arises when I "sell" someone and he asks where to buy an
EV. He's wanting a transportation appliance and not to become a member
of some cult so a shadetree conversion and the accompanying tinkering
is out of the question. I have to explain that there are no factory
EVs available because the market is too small. I'll usually discuss
finding a used EV on the web but I can see the interest drain away.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If there is such a pent-up
demand for EVs, where are the independent manufacturers? Venture
money is sitting out there just waiting to be plucked for anything
that one can make a good business case for. That's the problem. One
cannot make a business case for EVs without government interference, I
don't think. I'd love to be proved wrong.
>I'm sure NEDRA would love it if you started a new chapter for them. You
>could replace your cartoonish cheese-wedge CitiCar with a RAV-4EV and use it
>for deliveries from your restaurant and general normal-car-type duties.
Why in the world would I want to trade my cute little doorstop for a
boring little sh*tbox trucklet that I probably could not sit down in?
My "doorstop" attracts much more attention than would a silly little
trucklet. People are particularly fascinated to see a 6'7" tall guy
unfold from my doorstop. Since I already make deliveries with my Citi,
why would I want to spend money on a vehicle that would lose me
attention?
I have in fact already gotten newspaper coverage of my restaurant and
my Citi. I'm not interested in being trivialized by what passes for
TV reporting these days. Another article featured the guy a block
over who has a bright yellow Citi lettered up for his gym and window
tinting business and me together. The article noted the unique fact
that two practically identical electric cars garage within a block of
each other in a firmly non-EV part of the country. Neither of us
detected any effect on business, positive or negative.
BTW, for anyone who comes in and shows the least bit of interest, I'll
toss 'em the keys to my Citi and invite him to take it for a test
spin. I could have sold a dozen of 'em if I had 'em. I wonder how
many of you True Believers will do that with your EV? After all,
there's nothing like first hand experience to show someone how much
fun an EV can be.
I'd actually like to have something like a TEvan but I can't make a
business case for it with my current operations. Of course, if
someone wanted to donate one to the "cause", I'd certainly drive it.
Maybe even paint a big ole plug on the side.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
Not a simple question since the main hazzard of NiMh is the garrentied
thermal issues on the each end of the charge cycle.
This I have done manually recently...
If you have some form of temperature termination at the end of each charge
cycle, A PFC charger works rather well.
But I don't track temp or amphours or Kwhr with my chargers. So... you will
need to support your own end of charge determinations.
Yes I have done this... and no it was not hands off operation.
Noel (and all)
I will have something to fill the void in this situation very
soon now. The gadget will do any profile you download in it,
and it controls analog chargers like PFC series as well.
Granted, it tracks temps, Ah charged and other things, treating
external charger just as the brainless power stage. Basically
it is a BMS, being external brains for various chargers.
PbA Optimas, NiCd, LiIOns, whatever, it makes no distinction
(works the same way) - just strictly follows the charging rules
you set. But the responsibility to know and program these rules
in is on you.
What is the voltage for your NiMh individual batteries?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, Danny, if you want to locate in a supplier catalog a transformer
that either raises or lowers the supply voltage then you might want to
go with the common terminology and look for "buck/boost transformers".
Here's an EV-related example.
http://electroauto.com/catalog/price-pts.shtml
Toward the bottom of the page.
Here is the first hit on Google for "buck boost transformer".
http://www.jeffersonelectric.com/moreinfo.html
The fact is, the term far predates solid state electronics. I don't
know but I'd imagine that the term "buck/boost" as applies to solid
state circuits was probably borrowed from the coil and core version.
Buck/boost transformers, by definition, do not isolate. They are, in
fact, connected as autotransformers, though the windings are
differently configured.
John
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:40:03 -0500, Danny Miller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Actually the terms buck and boost usually do not apply to transformer
>circuits. Buck and boost converters usually require a different circuit
>depending on whether they raise or lower the voltage.
>A transformer is a step-up or step-down depending on just its turns
>ratio. They are inherently isolating unless you have an autotransformer.
>
>Isolation is a good thing, but may not essential depending on your
>configuration.
>
>Danny
>
>Neon John wrote:
>
>>Sure. You can buy transformers already configured for that service.
>>They're called buck/boost transformers.
>>
>>John
>>
>>On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT), Edward Ang
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>After toying around with different configurations of a
>>>transformer, I found some interesting stuff. But, I
>>>still could not quite get the physics behind it.
>>>
>>>Could we use a transformer as an AC voltage divider?
>>>
>>>Look at the 2 configurations below.
>>> ___________________
>>> | 240-36V
>>>-+__ __________ AC
>>> *) || C*
>>> ) || C
>>>240V ) || C 36V
>>>AC ) || C AC
>>>--+_) || C___
>>> | |
>>> |_________|
>>>
>>>This is the "normal" way to reduce the AC voltage as
>>>in an auto-transformer.
>>>
>>>But, how about this? I am essentially using the
>>>transformer as a voltage divider. I tested this
>>>configuration, and it seems to divide the voltage
>>>happily. But, how does it respond to different loads?
>>> _______________________
>>> | 240-36V
>>> | ___________________ AC
>>> | |
>>>--(---+__ ________
>>> | *) || C |
>>> | ) || C |
>>> |___ ) || C 36V |
>>> | ) || C AC |
>>>240V |_) || C*__ |
>>>AC | | |
>>> |_________| |
>>> |
>>>______________________|
>>>
>>>My brain needs some time to digest this.
>>>
>>>Ed Ang
>>>
>>>--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lee Hart wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, that can work. You might not need a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>transformer, either.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>The actual pulse width can be set to determine
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>the AC voltage
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>generated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>Edward Ang wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Wouldn't this only give you the RMS of the voltage
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>generated,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>but the actual peak voltage would be a lot
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>different? This would
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>be very bad if you connect something with an input
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>cap rated at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>200V (for 110Vac) because your Vdc (or peak) might
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>be above 200V.
>>>>
>>>>I'm talking about a simple inverter that just chops
>>>>the DC into a square
>>>>wave, and uses phase control on the AC to limit the
>>>>RMS voltage to what
>>>>the load needs. For this to work, everything depends
>>>>on what you are
>>>>going to power with that inverter's AC.
>>>>
>>>>Power supplies for electronic equipment rectify the
>>>>AC line, and mainly
>>>>care about the *peak* voltage. Phase control on a
>>>>square wave inverter
>>>>is not effective with such loads. You should not
>>>>power such devices from
>>>>an inverter that just controls pulse width.
>>>>
>>>>Light bulbs, heaters, motors, transformers, and
>>>>other simple loads care
>>>>about the RMS value of the voltage, not the peak. So
>>>>you *can* power
>>>>such loads with a simple inverter that just controls
>>>>pulse width. For
>>>>example, 240vdc can be inverted into a 240vac square
>>>>wave, and then
>>>>phase controlled to become a 0v/+240v/0v/-240v
>>>>"modified sine wave". If
>>>>the total on-time is 25%, the RMS voltage is 120v,
>>>>and will power a 120v
>>>>light bulb or heater exactly the same as if it were
>>>>on 120vac. At 60hz,
>>>>this means:
>>>>
>>>> 0v from 0 - 6.25 msec
>>>>240v from 6.25 - 8.33 msec
>>>> 0v from 8.33 - 14.58 msec
>>>>240v from 14.58 - 16.67 msec
>>>>
>>>>An inductive load like a motor or transformer will
>>>>require a slightly
>>>>different ratio. The exact ratio depends on how
>>>>heavily loaded it is; a
>>>>light load it is mainly inductive and is more
>>>>towards 50% on-time.
>>>>Heavily loaded it moves toward a resistive load and
>>>>25% on-time.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, the actual voltage applied to the device is
>>>>much higher. But
>>>>essentially all motors and transformers have enough
>>>>insulation to pass
>>>>UL hipot testing, which requires 1250 vac or more.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Actually, my goal is to get high power AC from my
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>'04
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Prius. I have alrealy tapped into the 201.6V pack
>>>>>with a pair of 10 gauge wires. The test data on
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>this
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>site (www.priups.com) shows that the voltage would
>>>>>vary between about 210-230V if the battery is down
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>2 bars and the ICE kicks in to recharge it to 3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>bars.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>If scaled properly, this voltage range would
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>produce
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>110-120Vac or 220-240Vac without any adjustment.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>This
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>is very tempting. (An EV would have a higher
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>ranges
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>of voltage swing that might need a variac if set
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>up
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>this way.) The idea of having an AT-PZEV 10kW
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>backup
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>generator in the garage is pretty exciting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>If you want to power any arbitrary load that you
>>>>might plug in, then you
>>>>need a "proper" inverter that delivers something
>>>>closer to a sine wave.
>>>>To make *any* load work, you will need a true
>>>>sinewave inverter.
>>>>--
>>>>"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting
>>>>to lose sight of the
>>>>shore for a very long time." -- Andre Gide
>>>>--
>>>>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
>>>>leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>____________________________________________________
>>>Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
>>>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>---
>>John De Armond
>>See my website for my current email address
>>http://www.johngsbbq.com
>>Cleveland, Occupied TN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ups? What did I do wrong now? Gettin' blasted for something I would
consider to be a good idea? I did not ask anybody do anything for me. Of
course, I would consider myself to be a part of the solution.
No need to get an attitude.
mm.
> Good grief. Learn some etiquette before asking people to do your work for
> you.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Michaela Merz
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:05 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Alternative batteries - was : RE: LA Times front page article on
> EVs today
>
>
> Hello nerds :)
>
> In order to make EVs more appealing to the Joe-everybodies, we need more
> range. That means better batteries. What is the chance that some of the
> people here start a kind of co-op to be able to handle (charge, thermal
> handling) and to order i.e. lithium batteries from Saft, Valence or
> Thundersky in numbers?
>
>
> mm.
>
>> Neon John wrote:
>>
>>> Damn, I hate that kind of article. It perpetuates the myth that all
>>> EV drivers are eco-fruitcakes. It un-does all the work us un-True
>>> Believers do to disassociate EVs and ourselves from the fruitcakes.
>>> I'm still waiting, in vane, it appears, for an article that shows
>>> Joe-everybodies driving EVs because they're fun and because they're
>>> cheap and convenient to operate.
>>
>> Once again John has tried as hard as he could to anger his audience
>> here without quite getting himself kicked off. (Not sure what that's
>> about, not sure I want to know.) He does raise an interesting point,
>> though it's one I think he doesn't get.
>>
>> "Mainstream" is a point of arrival. Meaning from somewhere else,
>> meaning change is involved. Joe-everybody does not initiate change,
>> he typically resists it. Let's look at some larger societal changes
>> as an illustration.
>>
>> If it was left up to Joe-everybody, Jim Crowe would still be thriving
>> in the south, women wouldn't be allowed to vote and they would hold
>> only menial jobs if they had jobs at all. Joe-everybody doesn't care
>> that the status quo makes no sense, so he won't rise up to make
>> changes.
>>
>> It takes activists, people who will shake things up. Like bra-burning
>> bitches (sorry, women behaving in an "un-ladylike" manner),
>> charismatic ministers and fist-waving Black Panthers. Sometimes these
>> activists are not what "mainstream" society would call model citizens.
>> That's the point - to smack society around enough that they'll finally
>> see the light. A sad commentary on us, but true nonetheless.
>>
>> And it takes time. It was only a few years ago that black women
>> wearing their hair in corn rows at the office was considered outrageous.
>> Jane-everybody doesn't do corn rows. Jane-everybody does what she's
>> told.
>> The status quo is very comforting to most people, even concerning
>> things as mundane as their cars. Change = uncertainty = bad.
>>
>> In the world of EVs the opposition is more commercial than societal.
>> But those commercial industries are extremely powerful. At the very
>> least EVs are seen as an unpredictable new type of product.
>> (Remember, uncertainty =
>> bad.) At worst EVs might mean dramatically reduced profits. (I think
>> that's actually true for the oil industry, since the technology exists
>> today to cut our total national consumption by probably a third, maybe
>> a half.
>> That's why they're pushing hydrogen - it makes no sense in energy
>> terms, but it allows them to keep selling product. I think EVs can
>> still be profitable for the auto industry, since high-tech prestige
>> still sells. But it's a new kind of high-tech, and new = uncertain =
>> bad.) Those captains of industry are required by law to maximize
>> profits, so that's exactly what they're doing - at the expense of
>> society at large.
>>
>> So John, if those horrible granola-crunching tree huggers and
>> bleeding-heart celebrities are the people you love to hate, and it
>> gets your knickers all twisted up to see them getting press, you've
>> missed the point. They're getting press. Joe-everybody is not. If
>> you want to see people who meet your high standards get some coverage
>> as well, how are you going to go about doing that?
>>
>> I'm sure NEDRA would love it if you started a new chapter for them.
>> You could replace your cartoonish cheese-wedge CitiCar with a RAV-4EV
>> and use it for deliveries from your restaurant and general
>> normal-car-type duties.
>> (What? An EV used as a normal car?) Then call your local paper and
>> TV station to see if you can get some coverage more to your liking.
>> Or you can complain about the "fruitcakes". Which is more effective?
>>
>> Chris
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Since it looks like many could charge during off-peak hours if needed,
it sure would be nice if we got a lower rate.
You can request time of use metering in most areas. You might want to
start meter watching for a few weeks... read your meter every couple of
hours for a day or two and try to get a feel for when you are using
power. The EV is probably not the majority of your usage.
For a more technical solution online a couple of people have used laser
pointers shining thru their electric meter to a sensor on the opposite
side. The spinning disc inside interrupts the beam and a computer
figures out the usage per hour..
A friend in the power industry said that most people that switched to
time of use actually saw a rise in their bills becuase they were unable
to control their usage during the (Still expensive) early evening hours.
As another interesting fact.. he did say that freezing water at night to
cool the house during the day worked well in their experiments, and only
a lack of commercially available equipment prevented them from
recommending the practice to consumers.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's been tried here in the South but it didn't go over very well.
There isn't a business case to make for it, as we have ample
generating capacity. A lot of people around here are still old
fashioned in that they think the utilities and government should serve
us instead of the other way around. Supplying us with power when we
want it as cheaply as possible is what we expect and we mostly get it.
Multiple rate residential meters are commonly available. Look at the
GE site, for example. The typical electronic register residential
meter will contain three registers with the ability to set a schedule
on each. The cost of the electronic meters has dropped below the
mechanical meters. Utilities are still somewhat reticent to use the
all-electronic meters, however, because of several factors.
The first is that it is generally impossible to recover the reading
when the meter fails, especially when it gets blown apart by
lightning. As long as it hasn't been violently disassembled by the
strike, a mechanical register can still be read.
Next, meters are still primarily read by hand. Even though many
utilities have adopted Telzons (handheld computers) for their meter
readers, the reader still visually reads the meter and enters it
manually. Electronic meters have infrared interfaces but few
utilities around here use them.
A multi-rate meter requires the meter reader to operate a lever
multiple times to switch between the various rate registers and then
transcribe the values accurately. Meter reading is a low level job
with high turnover so the utilities try to keep it simple. Judging
from the conversations I've had with utility managers, most are
waiting for fully automatic reading to arrive before changing from the
manual method.
Power rates are very low in the TVA area (currently 5.2cents/kwh
commercial, lower residential) so multiple rates can't be supported by
economics. The generating and transmission capacity is adequate for
now and TVA does a good job of capacity planning so there is little
need for load leveling on a regular basis.
John
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:46:38 -0500, Danny Miller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>How common is it that power companies charge variable rates depending on
>what time it is consumed?
>
>My power bill is just one rate for 0-500KWH then 500+ KWH is at a
>significantly higher rate. Outside the house I have a bubble meter with
>all the mechanical gears and a mechanical dial display, so obviously the
>power company cannot use a time-variable rate with this equipment.
>
>Is it just industrial consumers, or do certain locales use it for
>residential consumers?
>
>Since it looks like many could charge during off-peak hours if needed,
>it sure would be nice if we got a lower rate.
>
>Danny
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If someone has/is interested in hosting it, please
> provide the link, so that I can update _my_ website.
How big is it? I could probably put it on my site that hasn't changed providers
in, well,
ever.
--
joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Victor!
I have 30 Ovonic 9500 series NiMH batteries @ 13.2v, and rated current
is 85Ah at 25 degrees C.
I assume that this your SmoothTalk system? It looks to be very cool
technology.
Any idea of pricing yet?
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:00 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: PFC-30
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Not a simple question since the main hazzard of NiMh is the
> garrentied
> > thermal issues on the each end of the charge cycle.
> >
> > This I have done manually recently...
> >
> > If you have some form of temperature termination at the
> end of each
> > charge cycle, A PFC charger works rather well.
> >
> > But I don't track temp or amphours or Kwhr with my
> chargers. So... you
> > will need to support your own end of charge determinations.
> >
> > Yes I have done this... and no it was not hands off operation.
>
> Noel (and all)
>
> I will have something to fill the void in this situation very
> soon now. The gadget will do any profile you download in it,
> and it controls analog chargers like PFC series as well.
>
> Granted, it tracks temps, Ah charged and other things,
> treating external charger just as the brainless power stage.
> Basically it is a BMS, being external brains for various chargers.
> PbA Optimas, NiCd, LiIOns, whatever, it makes no distinction
> (works the same way) - just strictly follows the charging
> rules you set. But the responsibility to know and program
> these rules in is on you.
>
> What is the voltage for your NiMh individual batteries?
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any
distribution or use of this information by a person other than the intended
recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, I have an idea. San Jose just had a big car race, the SJ Grand
Prix. It was the first annual, and I hear that it's definitely on for
next year. I heard that they had some "pre" races before the main event
of various classes of cars that were allowed to race a few laps of the
roughly 1.5 mile course. How about if the Silicon Valley EVAA
approached the organizers about having one of those "pre" races being an
electric car race? That would be great exposure!
Jenn
Santa Clara, CA
Yellow EVT 4000e
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Tromley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:58 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: LA Times front page article on EVs today
<snip>
So John, if those horrible granola-crunching tree huggers and
bleeding-heart
celebrities are the people you love to hate, and it gets your knickers
all
twisted up to see them getting press, you've missed the point. They're
getting press. Joe-everybody is not. If you want to see people who
meet
your high standards get some coverage as well, how are you going to go
about
doing that?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michaela and All,
Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello nerds :)
Not a great openning.
In order to make EVs more appealing to the Joe-everybodies, we need more
range. That means better batteries. What is the chance that some of the
people here start a kind of co-op to be able to handle (charge, thermal
handling) and to order i.e. lithium batteries from Saft, Valence or
Thundersky in numbers?
They are no good canidates for this except Ni-cads as the others have
either cost or other problems. It is quite easy with a good lightweight, aero
EV to get a 100 mile range.
You can ven get this range with lead batts if you design the EV
correctly by using 50% batt weight with low aero/rolling drag. Lead batts are
the way to go because they have the lowest cost of any other types. One thing
few know is most golf carts have a stock range of 60-100 miles!!
As for joe 6 pack, what you need for them is either education just like
you need for a reg car though it's so ingrained no one thinks of it with ICE
cars or just make it idiot proof.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
mm.
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys,
does anybody know how many ev1's are still on the road? -Tom
Neon John wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:00:22 -0700, "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Copy and paste into your browser: or click on if you are feeling lucky.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ev15aug15,0,5131192.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Damn, I hate that kind of article. It perpetuates the myth that all
EV drivers are eco-fruitcakes. It un-does all the work us un-True
Believers do to disassociate EVs and ourselves from the fruitcakes.
I'm still waiting, in vane, it appears, for an article that shows
Joe-everybodies driving EVs because they're fun and because they're
cheap and convenient to operate.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz wrote:
> In order to make EVs more appealing to the Joe-everybodies, we need more
> range. That means better batteries. What is the chance that some of the
> people here start a kind of co-op to be able to handle (charge, thermal
> handling) and to order i.e. lithium batteries from Saft, Valence or
> Thundersky in numbers?
Hi Michaela,
I see where you're going, but the problem here is that lithium batteries are
not yet ready for prime time. Very promising, but only the most savvy EVers
have used them.
The biggest issue is that lithium batteries need a very sophisticated
battery management system (BMS). Without that you run a very big risk of
destroying your pack, either rendering them benignly unusable or setting
them on fire. There are also unanswered questions about how to handle a
fire in an EV with a lithium pack, regardless of whether the batteries
started it or are only in its way.
So basically you're ahead of your time. There are several people here
working on solutions that will make lithium batteries practical. When that
time comes, you won't have to ask twice about a group buy.
In the short term more range means more lead, or perhaps NiCads. For some,
a high-power charger makes range less of an issue. For others, figuring out
where to put more batteries and how to make the necessary electrical,
structural and running gear changes. You're in the right place for answers.
Chris
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