EV Digest 4637
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 2000 mile range EV?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 2000 mile range EV?
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Dead charger troubleshooting
by Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Safety - AC/DC, voltage, current
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: E-Meter, Ah counters, who needs 'em?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: E-Meter, Ah counters, who needs 'em?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 2000 mile range EV?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 2000 mile range EV?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 2000 mile range EV?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: E-Meter, Ah counters, who needs 'em?
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: E-Meter, Ah counters, who needs 'em?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) "Gone Postal" to race this weekend
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Loud Lester charger?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Todd DC to DC Converter
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re:Now Boats-Ready made motor&controller&batterypack&charger...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Loud Lester charger?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) testing used batteries
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: E-Meter, Ah counters, who needs 'em?
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: E-Meter, Ah counters, who needs 'em?
by Rex Allison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: E-Meter, Ah counters, who needs 'em?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Loud Lester charger?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RS232 isolation question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) adapter plate business...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Danny Miller wrote:
> Wow, this is unbelievable. But 80KWH of lithium ion and a shape
> designed for nothing but range could do it.
>
> Interesting they chose not to use the new huge li-ion cells. Doing
> the math they have 8 WH per cell, so they're only a bit more than
> 2 AH, basically laptop cells as they described.
I am beginning to worry about the lack of innovation in the solar car
teams. They all seem to use the same solar cells, same batteries, same
motor, and same controller. Nearly everything is purchased.
This project seems to be more of the same. Are they just using the same
parts as their solar car, but adding more batteries? Thus the laptop
batteries, Michelin solar car tires, New Generation motor and
controller, etc.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hi Bruce,
The only
practical thing I see out of this study is the ability
to charge the Lithium Ions packs in an hour. >
We can already charge Li-poly cells in less than an hour. I suspect it would
not be any more difficult for Li-ion.
When we received our 4.2 volt 70 amp-hr cells from Kokam, we charged them at
70 amps. http://www.proev.com/BatLog/Kkm0003.htm
When they hit 4.2 volts, we held voltage steady and tapered the amps. Charge
time was about 1.5 hours. Kokam has said that 2 C rate should be fine as
long as you keep a sharp eye on voltage. This should bring charge time under
an hour.
The trick is that we would need something like a 220 volt 250 amp outlet and
a PFC250 charger<G>. With a PFC50 and a 220 volt 50 amp welding plug, we are
seeing almost 30 amps DC into our depleted 360 volt pack
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Jake, I wanted to reply to some of your comments:
> The usability people told him that he wasn't allowed to put the
word "watt" in front of the user. He argued with them and they
bottom-lined him by saying that they had focus-grouped the word watt and
found out that it means something different to everybody and very few
people actually knew what it really meant. Consequently, any user
interface that used it would mislead most of the users. This is,
honest-to-god, how usability engineers think.
I really wonder how is the electricity meter on their houses is
calibrated. They get charged per kWh. Do they even care to educate
themselves to know what they are being charged for?
Take ICE car.
Ultimately I don't care how many gallons of gasoline it has
left and even how many miles it allow me to go. I want to
drive to Salem from POrtland and I want to know if I can
make it. So I want a meter thazt said "yes, you will make it".
But there is no such a thing (at least currently).
So I have to look on the map how far the Salem is, recall
how many MPG my vehicle goes, and do the math myself.
Doing *exactly identical* exercise with kWh in the pack is no
different than with gallons in a gas tank.
Now, I do understand peope is people, they will agree that I'm
technically right but they aren't gonna bother anyway. Fine.
Ask them how they want to see the meter reporting remaining
resources. It can be miles estimated, this is what my EVision
will do, but it will *always* be the best estimation, no more,
since real range depends on the *future* driving and no one
can predict it. I may suddenly decide to slow down to extend
my range going somewhere far, thus all pre-calcs based
on previous "normal" driving will be off.
As you probably know, accurately predicting the amount of usable energy
in a battery is hard, but not unsolvable. However, what most people
want to know is how many minutes are going to pass before they have to
stop using their computers.
If your fuel gauge will give you figure in minutes, you'd
wonder at what speed. Minutes is meaningless number, in general
it doesn't tell me if I can make it to my destination.
BTW same goes for ICE cars.
Predicting this is a matter of guessing
what the user will do with the computer in the near future and
determining when the voltage will drop below the minimum required level,
where that value fluctuates depending on what the user will be doing at
the time. Since these two are essentially unpredictable, every layer in
the system adds some buffer to the data that it passes back. The
batteries give conservative data to the laptop embedded controller,
which reduces the numbers when it passes them off to the operating
system, which then makes conservative calculations to show to the user.
All of this happens because the consequences of being wrong are high.
The user will lose his or her data. (Turn off the emergency shutdown
alarms on your laptop and you'll see. It will run another ten or twenty
percent beyond its prediction before the machine crashes.) EVs are a
different situation. If your calculations are wrong, the result is less
abrupt. Furthermore, most of the drivers of EVs, certainly including
those who are currently in this discussion, would rather be given
relatively raw data that is accurate, rather than a post-processed vague
statement of "fullness" for the batteries.
This was a big discussion at BRUSA if they will include Peukert
exponent adjustment in their Ah counters - something they could
easily do if they wanted to. Experience showed that it confused
customers more than benefited them. So they just indicate
raw energy consumption very accurately, and the rest is up to the
user.
Again, EVs are a different animal. They aren't so sensitive to a single
point on the voltage curve. But it would be nice if we had a device
available to us that could dynamically calculate the battery string's
capabilities by watching it over time.
...
Victor, I'll probably buy the device you produce regardless of whether
it can collect this sort of data. But I'd love to see you incorporate
these features. If you need programming help, I could probably lend a
hand.
When one of such devices will be available, I'll let people know.
Yes, it will be "learning" device. It will remain to be seen how well
it will work, but it's limitations will be stated clearly so
a disappointed angry user won't get stuck in the middle of a freeway.
- Jake Oshins
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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One of the big issues for Solectria Force owners is troubleshooting and
repairing their BC3300 (aka Brusa NLG412) chargers when they stop working.
As some of you know, there are two main fuses inside these chargers.
They are available and I have a supply of them on hand now. Sometimes
these fuses blow, and if you replace them the charger works again, which
is lucky because in a worst-case scenario, something critical in the
charger has gone bad which just causes the new fuse to blow as well.
I've heard comments from some people when they lok at their blown fuses
that they looked like they had overheated. The following may help you
out if you have one of these fuses blow.
My NiCD Force just stopped charging the other day in the middle of a
charge cycle and I pulled out the charger today to see if I could fix
it. One of the two main fuses was blown and I started thinking, "oh no,
something must really be wrong in the guts of this thing to have blown
that". I could see some discoloration on one end of the fuse, and the
meter showed it was open, so I pulled it out and got a fresh one.
Before putting in the new one, I started looking around to see if I
could spot any obviously bad components (capacitors, diodes, etc) but
all looked OK. Normally if one of those big capacitors in the charger
goes bad, it'll be bulged out or something -- All looked fine. Then I
noticed that the actual epoxy circuit board was discolored around where
the fuse is attached to the threaded hex post, as if it had been really hot.
In these chargers, the fuses are connected to two threaded hex standoff
posts that are in turn, bolted to the circuit board. It's not like
they're hooked to a big component that could get hot and cause this.
I then realized that a loose connection could cause that kind of heating
and sure enough, the threaded post was VERY loose where it bolts through
the circuit board! In fact, all four of the fuse posts were loose. I
tightened all of them and reinstalled the fuses and buttoned up the
charger and it's now charging the Force nicely.
Just a bit of info for future reference. Before replacing the fuses,
remove them and check to be sure the standoff posts are very tightly
bolted to the circuit board!
-Tom
--
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
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--- Begin Message ---
Osmo Sarin wrote:
> Thanks Lee, for answering my original questions.. :)
You're welcome!
> So the current in the cables between a motor and a controller is
> always AC?
The *current* to a DC motor is pretty much DC (DC with perhaps 10% AC
ripple current superimposed on it). But the *voltage* being fed to it by
a PWM controller (which is what most EVs use) is actually a square wave
that switches between full pack voltage and zero volts, thousands of
times per second. They vary the on-time of this square wave to control
the motor current, and thus its speed and torque. The voltage waveform
looks like this:
_____-_____-_____- low speed
___---___---___--- medium speed
_-----_-----_----- high speed
> So what´s the difference between AC and DC motor?
All motors are really AC motors. A "DC" motor just has an internal
DC-to-AC converter. This internal controller can be a simple as a
commutator and brushes, or an electronic inverter.
>> All that matters is the voltage. In this respect, the lower the
>> voltage, the safer it is. So the higher your EV's voltage, the
>> better it needs to be protected and insulated to prevent shocks.
> This is how I originally thought it would be, but I´ve got this
> kind of information also (in a private email):
> "From electrical theory and Safety, Current kills not voltage.
> The higher the current the more likely to kill...12v AC or DC
> can kill you if you body impedance is low enough and enough
> current flows through you and it run through you heart."
This is true; but current and voltage are related (by Ohm's law; Voltage
= Current x Resistance). A human body has a certain resistance. The
actual value varies a lot depending on which two points you measure
between, the size of the contact areas, whether the skin is wet, etc.
It *is* the current you have to worry about -- you can feel 0.5ma
(0.0005 amperes), 5ma (0.005 amps) is a nasty shock, and 50ma (0.05
amps) is often fatal.
But when you touch some voltage source, what is the current? You need to
know *both* the voltage *and* your body's resistance. As a rule, under
about 30v your body resistance is so high that you almost never can get
more than 5ma. At 120v, about half the time you can get more than 5ma.
At 240v you almost always get more than 5ma.
So, do you feel lucky today? The higher the voltage, the greater the
risk that your body's resistance is low enough to electrocute you.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> Sorry Lee, but car fuel gauges have improved in the last 30 years.
> The one on my 91 F-250 seems pretty accurate, and the one in the
> 85 Mercedes is quite accurate as well.
Then you've been luckier with your cars than I am.
We have a 2001 Toyota Prius, a car that has lots of extra fuel tank
sensors so you'd think would be good. When filled, it takes 150 miles
out of a 500-mile tank) before the fuel gauge comes down 1 bar (9/10ths
tank). At 5 bars ("half"), you've actually used up 3/4th of the tank.
You can't go even 10 miles on the last bar.
We also have a 2002 VW Eurovan. "Full" means 3/4 tank or more, "half"
means 1/3 of a tank is left, and "1/4" means 1/8 of a tank.
Prior to this we've had a 2000 Toyota Sienna, 1996 Toyota Camry, and
1994 Plymouth Voyager. All had similar drastic differences between what
the gauge read and how much fuel was actually in the tank.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Yup, mine work better.
But note - while yours aren't "accurate" they are consistent. Once
you know what their behavior is, you can use them as if they were accurate.
That seems to be the hard part for an EV fuel gauge. They aren't
accurate, nor are they consistent.
At 01:04 PM 8/29/2005, Lee Hart wrote:
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> Sorry Lee, but car fuel gauges have improved in the last 30 years.
> The one on my 91 F-250 seems pretty accurate, and the one in the
> 85 Mercedes is quite accurate as well.
Then you've been luckier with your cars than I am.
We have a 2001 Toyota Prius, a car that has lots of extra fuel tank
sensors so you'd think would be good. When filled, it takes 150 miles
out of a 500-mile tank) before the fuel gauge comes down 1 bar (9/10ths
tank). At 5 bars ("half"), you've actually used up 3/4th of the tank.
You can't go even 10 miles on the last bar.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
Now had they built it for $5 to $10K it would have
been a very worthy project. I think they are loosing
site of a practical passenger EV.
No, they are not, it jus isn't a goal of this vehicle.
We blow *much* more money to get a person on the moon -
much less *parectical* goal to plain mortals.
But we still do it, don't we?
It's not all and always about money and pragmatic practicality Bruce.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Did anyone notice that their schedule is a little dated? The time line runs
from November 2003 through Autumn 2004 when they were supposed to do their
single charge cross country trip. Anyone know how they did?
Dave Cover
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Actually the mission statement said it was about
practicality. They failed in that aspect. The moon
mission never stated it was practical. But how many of
us want to go with them to the moon. I know it was my
dream when I was a kid.
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
>
> > Now had they built it for $5 to $10K it would have
> > been a very worthy project. I think they are
> loosing
> > site of a practical passenger EV.
>
> No, they are not, it jus isn't a goal of this
> vehicle.
> We blow *much* more money to get a person on the
> moon -
> much less *parectical* goal to plain mortals.
> But we still do it, don't we?
>
> It's not all and always about money and pragmatic
> practicality Bruce.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
I once had a car that if the engine was running you had gas.
Resolution was a bit lacking but the accuracy and repeatability was very good.
____________
Andre' B.
At 03:04 PM 8/29/2005, you wrote:
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> Sorry Lee, but car fuel gauges have improved in the last 30 years.
> The one on my 91 F-250 seems pretty accurate, and the one in the
> 85 Mercedes is quite accurate as well.
Then you've been luckier with your cars than I am.
We have a 2001 Toyota Prius, a car that has lots of extra fuel tank
sensors so you'd think would be good. When filled, it takes 150 miles
out of a 500-mile tank) before the fuel gauge comes down 1 bar (9/10ths
tank). At 5 bars ("half"), you've actually used up 3/4th of the tank.
You can't go even 10 miles on the last bar.
We also have a 2002 VW Eurovan. "Full" means 3/4 tank or more, "half"
means 1/3 of a tank is left, and "1/4" means 1/8 of a tank.
Prior to this we've had a 2000 Toyota Sienna, 1996 Toyota Camry, and
1994 Plymouth Voyager. All had similar drastic differences between what
the gauge read and how much fuel was actually in the tank.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
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--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 29, 2005, at 1:04 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
We have a 2001 Toyota Prius, a car that has lots of extra fuel tank
sensors so you'd think would be good. When filled, it takes 150 miles
out of a 500-mile tank) before the fuel gauge comes down 1 bar (9/10ths
tank). At 5 bars ("half"), you've actually used up 3/4th of the tank.
You can't go even 10 miles on the last bar.
The Prius has a bladder lined fuel tank and is quite known for goofy
fuel level readings. Filling all the way regularly helps. Our Prius
only takes about 75 miles to drop one bar and has over 20 miles after
it posts the warning (one bar flashing) unless I've added gas more than
a couple of times without getting it full. Repeated 'non-filling' will
get the warning down to less than 10 miles to go. Thankfully, running
out of gas is not really an issue in my urban setting (it drives
without gas :-)
On an EV note I wonder if measuring Peukert's adjusted capacity is a
good idea. It seems to me that once you get about 34 ah out of an
Optima its voltage will go to 10.5 volts at 100 amps quickly with
little regard for how those amps where removed. Thus, perhaps counting
available capacity by amp hours is better than (or at least equal to)
the function of the e-meter. Temperature compensated ah could be even
better. Of course, by resting an EV you can drive slightly farther, but
this recovery function is not reflected in the e-meter anyway.
I sold my only EV with an e-meter some time ago, but I had an idea. If
an e-meter was set with the Peukert's exponent as 1.0 and the amp hours
set for what you can normally normally expect to remove it might make a
better EV "fuel gauge". This idea came to me as I was looking for a
plain battery amp hour counter and didn't find anything (expect
expensive systems that seemed to measure "everything".)
I could just measure my buggy capacity by knowing that 0 was full and
28ah down was getting into the soft voltage area, ideally with a gauge
marked F to E with 28ah being set at the reserve fuel line. By
combining that with John Lussmyer's battery voltage watcher I would
know a lot about what my pack was feeling without a volt meter or amp
meter in sight.
Paul "neon" G.
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I'm trying to hack together a "quick and dirty" race performance
graphing app for Woodburn. I've got a 10oz embedded computer that
gathers data from a hairball and a 3 axis accelerometer and then tries
to present that information in some useful format post race via a built
in webserver (ok, its overkill, but I had all the stuff handy)
Since Otmar is likely at or heading to Burning Man I'll ask here hopeing
someone can enlightening me a little more about what the various values
from the Hairball's DAQ4 mode are. I don't have a working Zilla powered
EV handy, just several not installed hairballs. (If someone can supply
me with about 20 seconds of DAQ4 output taken from a working car
accelerating away from a stoplight that would be very helpful. Just do a
capture to a text file and mail it to me.)
From the manual:
-----
DrivePot: Seems obvious, I expect its either the raw ADC data from the
throttle pot, or maybe a 0-100% value.
Speed1: I think in this context Speed is motor rpm, since the Zilla has
only one vehicle speed input and there is Speed1, and Speed2 values in
other DAQ output. For the Zombie motor RPM and vehicle speed are
linked.. but that will not be true for the EV's with transmissions. I
can use the accelerometer data to make a good estimate of vehicle speed
if needed.
ArmatureCurrent: Motor loop current? Seems kinda odd to label it Armature.
ZCurrentLimit: I expect this is normally a static (and uninteresting)
value but it may drop as heat sink temp increases.
ArmDC: no idea
BatteryVoltage: obvious
MotorVoltage: obvious
HeatSinkTemp: obvious, but would this be interesting enough to plot on
the final graph?
OperatingStatus: we monitor this just to mark the graph with a line when
series/parallel switching is activated.
-----
Right now I just plot this data on a line chart, with the X axis as
time, and multiple Y axis for current, throttle, batt and motor voltage,
speed and acceleration.
If there is something else anyone is interested in, or suggestions on
what data to gather or how to display it I'd love to hear about it.
Thanks
Mark Farver
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Great news, "Gone Postal" will be racing at the Wayland Invitational Friday
Night Street Legal Drags at Portland International Raceway (PIR) thanks to
this wonderful list and the great generosity of Chris Robison, EV List
member from Austin Texas. He saw my post and shot off an email offering to
let me use his high voltage Z2K Zilla for the weekend. Chris, of course, is
the newest member of the "Suck Amps EV Racing Team". We will be aiming at
breaking into the thirteens at over 100 mph. This will be the proof of
concept of the project and will land us in not only the NEDRA 100 mph club,
but also Madman Rudman's virtual street legal 100 mph club. I know we can
pull this of if we do not break anything. As soon as we break 100 we will
shut her down and keep her in running condition for Woodburn on Sunday. Wish
us luck!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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On 8/29/05, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > Is it normal for a Lestronic I 120vdc/12vdc Model 9776 charger to
> > be so loud?
> This noise is normally only 2-3 times louder than a conventional
> transformer of the same power, which isn't bad at all. However, the
> transformer's vibration can cause other parts to vibrate
> sympathetically. For instance, two pieces of the metal case vibrate
> against each other, producing a loud buzz. Or the transformer itself can
> have loose mounting screws or loose laminations or windings. This is
> what usually makes the racket associated with such transformers.
One other thing, check what the charger is bolted to. If it's the
rear bulkhead of the truck cab for example, this could be acting as a
big speaker, turning the vibrations into sound. We sometimes have
that problem with solar inverters in people's lofts.
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Are these a worthy Unit in anyone experience ?
Some background on the system im putting together..
144vlt system
Warp 9
Zilla 1k Controller
Not sure on Charger yet
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Sail boats have tremendous horsepower available. Why not put a small hydro
generator in the water to generate some electricity for the towed boat..
Wouldn't need to be very big. Hydro is much more powerful in generation
than wind. On a crusier the drag probably wouldn't be noticed.
LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 6:59 AM
Subject: Re:Now Boats-Ready made motor&controller&batterypack&charger...
So I know that the power needed to get up on the plane
in a boat is quite large, but then tapers off once
up... is there any formulas for figuring this?
I have a sail boat and want to use an electric to get
out to it when at anchor... I already have solar
recharge on the sailboat for running lights and such,
but was thinking, a little electric speed boat that
could be towed for recharge behind the sailboat would
be an efficient way to do things... not to mention the
quick, cheap trip down the river to the boat at
anchor!
By the way ... thanks for all the responses! it's nice
to see I'm not alone in thinking this could be a
usefull system.
Tom
-----snip-----
Hi Lawrence and All,
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 24 Volts the new motor provides a maximum speed of
6 miles per hour. We are happy with this speed. (It is
more than needed for trolling, but a comfortable speed
for just touring the shoreline in the evening)
Sounds like a great way to go and an especially good
way to go solar boating as you ned only a small solar
panel set if you are only going out once a week which
is normal. And great pick of a boat as pontoons use
very little power vs monohulls that if over hull
speed, suck it in hugh quanities.
You might consider the waterline length speed when
under power. Depending
This is really only a factor in monohulls
and pontoons, cats that have wide, deep sterns. They
usually if done correctly not have the bow wave
barrier to higher speeds as they are so narrow if 8-1
beam to length /hull ratio. In a monohull you are
very correct and should keep you speed to the sq root
of
the waterline length which if 25', would be 5 mph.
Above that energy needed goes straight up!! So ge a
pontoon, cat if you want to go fast at all though is
want a cool slow cruiser that can carry a lot of
weight, a low drag monohull of the sailboat, power
launch, displacement hull type is a good way to go.
on the length of your pontoon boat you could use an
ammeter to find the most efficient speed for crusing.
(I am assuming you don't need to get up on a
Cats and pontoon should not get on plane as they can
cut though the water are lower energy use without it.
plane.) Just a fraction of a knot faster than your
length speed and we're talking a lot more power
wasted. It could mean the difference of going
That's exactly what a reg monohull will do making bow
waves instead of speed so slowing a little in them
will save a large amount of power.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
-----
further or not at all. Jerry Dycus might have the
formula for figuring out the exact speed of any length
boat.
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The timer works. I think however it may be under charging my pack. I got
some advice on how to check diodes. I'll start with that.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Loud Lester charger?
On 29 Aug 2005 at 0:26, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Is it normal for a Lestronic I 120vdc/12vdc Model 9776 charger to be so
loud?
Yeah, they're all buzz-boxes, though 80 dB sounds kinda loud.
It doesn't hold the 3amp finish voltage. It goes down to zero like a
variac or K&W charger does.
I don't think that should happen. Mine never did that. Most Lestronics
finish at either 5 or 8 amps and shut down when the voltage starts to fall
a
bit (dv/dt algorithm). Yours might have a flaky cap, causing low output.
How long does it take to shut off?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am considering buying some surplus Hawker Genesis EP 70ah 12V batteries that
were removed from UPS service. The seller tested them by discharging them at 4
amps and measuring the Ah. They are claiming near or over their rating of
70ah. The series is 2001.
Is this the way to test these?
If I go to the sellers location, how can I test them without discharging them?
I know UPS batteries are not usually appropriate for traction applications -
but Hawkers are different - Right?
Since they say I'm likely to murder my first pack anyway, I figure if I can get
it cheap and maybe squeeze 200 or 300 cycles out of it, why not?
Thanks in advance for you input.
Carl Clifford
Denver
tryin' to get that grin off the ground
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
My 2005 Prius gas guage is neither accurate nor consistant. The last bar
starts to flash and can mean over 25 miles or just 5 miles.
With a 400 mile range, I suspect Toyota decided fine accuracy was not worth
additional cost.
With an EV's range, higher accuracy could be worth spending more.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
Yup, mine work better.
But note - while yours aren't "accurate" they are consistent. Once you
know what their behavior is, you can use them as if they were accurate.
That seems to be the hard part for an EV fuel gauge. They aren't
accurate, nor are they consistent.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My early EV experience working at a Utility was with
the Solectria AmpHour meter. It is just an straight
reading of AmpHours that starts at zero with a full
charge and counts up as AmpHours are taken out of the
batteries. Being a little green with EVs we ran them
until the performance dropped in vehicle to about 45
AmpHours. This was pretty consistent although looking
back we were probably damaging the batteries. Now that
I understand how harsh this was on the batteries I
would use the AmpHour meter to keep the consumption to
half that value say 22 AmpHours. I've always though of
the AmpHour meter as the most consistent battery meter
because it is a measurement (as opposed to something
that would estimate remaining range).
I believe the more experienced drivers using an
Ammeter and a Voltmeter perform sort or a mental
AmpHour metering as you check current draw and battery
droop along with miles driven.
--- ProEV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> My 2005 Prius gas guage is neither accurate nor
> consistant. The last bar
> starts to flash and can mean over 25 miles or just 5
> miles.
>
> With a 400 mile range, I suspect Toyota decided fine
> accuracy was not worth
> additional cost.
>
> With an EV's range, higher accuracy could be worth
> spending more.
>
> Cliff
>
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
>
> > Yup, mine work better.
> > But note - while yours aren't "accurate" they are
> consistent. Once you
> > know what their behavior is, you can use them as
> if they were accurate.
> > That seems to be the hard part for an EV fuel
> gauge. They aren't
> > accurate, nor are they consistent.
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rex, you're very right, but most people don't get it
(I should say don't want to get it).
Ah consumed is a measurement and thus is very accurate.
But they don't want to remember how many Ah the pack
possess or how far 22kWh will get you.
They want to see "25 mines remain" on the gauge and
have it accurate, yet don't even know themselved exactly
how they are going to drive these 25 miles.
That driving pattern may make extimated number
35miles in reality, or may make it 10. Who do you think
are they going to blame for mis-estimation?
This is why best estimation is technically worse than
direct measuring, but if that's what most people
demand for "comfort" and willing to pay for, than be it.
Victor
Rex Allison wrote:
My early EV experience working at a Utility was with
the Solectria AmpHour meter. It is just an straight
reading of AmpHours that starts at zero with a full
charge and counts up as AmpHours are taken out of the
batteries. Being a little green with EVs we ran them
until the performance dropped in vehicle to about 45
AmpHours. This was pretty consistent although looking
back we were probably damaging the batteries. Now that
I understand how harsh this was on the batteries I
would use the AmpHour meter to keep the consumption to
half that value say 22 AmpHours. I've always though of
the AmpHour meter as the most consistent battery meter
because it is a measurement (as opposed to something
that would estimate remaining range).
I believe the more experienced drivers using an
Ammeter and a Voltmeter perform sort or a mental
AmpHour metering as you check current draw and battery
droop along with miles driven.
--- ProEV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi John,
My 2005 Prius gas guage is neither accurate nor
consistant. The last bar
starts to flash and can mean over 25 miles or just 5
miles.
With a 400 mile range, I suspect Toyota decided fine
accuracy was not worth
additional cost.
With an EV's range, higher accuracy could be worth
spending more.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
Yup, mine work better.
But note - while yours aren't "accurate" they are
consistent. Once you
know what their behavior is, you can use them as
if they were accurate.
That seems to be the hard part for an EV fuel
gauge. They aren't
accurate, nor are they consistent.
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good advice.
If the transformer itself is vibrating loudly and you don't mind the
work of removing it from the charger, take it to an electric motor
repair shop and have it "dipped and baked" in winding varnish. This
will almost completely stop all vibrations, as it locks the
laminations and windings in place. There will still be a little
magnetostrictive hum but it won't be bad.
This is a standard treatment that I do to all constant voltage and
"leakage flux" transformers that I use in my shop. I can't stand that
buzz.
I would not expect to pay more than $50 for the service, especially if
you can wait until they have some other jobs to run through the dip
tank and oven and can piggyback your transformer on the runs.
John
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:16:44 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>> Is it normal for a Lestronic I 120vdc/12vdc Model 9776 charger to
>> be so loud?
>
>They use a constant-voltage transformer. This type of transformer drives
>the iron core into saturation, so the magnetic forces on it are larger.
>There is also a deliberate air gap in the core; the large magnetic force
>in the core is trying to close that air gap (at the peaks of the AC
>line), and releasing its pull (at the zero crossings) 120 times per
>second. This makes a noticeable "brrrr" noise.
>
>This noise is normally only 2-3 times louder than a conventional
>transformer of the same power, which isn't bad at all. However, the
>transformer's vibration can cause other parts to vibrate
>sympathetically. For instance, two pieces of the metal case vibrate
>against each other, producing a loud buzz. Or the transformer itself can
>have loose mounting screws or loose laminations or windings. This is
>what usually makes the racket associated with such transformers.
>
>Try picking up a corner of the case, or tipping it on various sides. If
>the noise changes, look for loose screws or bent metal pieces. Check the
>transformer mounting screws to be sure they are tight. Press on the
>windings with a wooden stick and see if they move, or the sound changes.
>Transformers are supposed to be dipped in varnish to "glue together" all
>their parts to avoid vibration, but they might have done a careless job.
>--
>*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
> -- Mahatma Gandhi
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
Victor,
If you don't already know about 1-wire devices by Dallas
Semiconductor, you might want to check them out.
Of course I know about 1 wire stuff.
"1-Wire® devices lower system cost and simplify design with an
interface protocol that supplies control, signaling, and power over a
single-wire connection. A variety of identification, sensor, control,
and memory functions are available in traditional IC packages,
ultra-small CSPs, and stainless-steel-clad iButtons®. "
Try to use it near running EV controller or inverter and
let me know if you succeed.
Hint - using non-differential bus type is practically
hopeless in such an environment.
Good luck,
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
List,
Does it make much sense to isolate RS232 ground from the car's chassy?
If you think yes, why?
Of course provided, it is isolated from the pack and any hi voltage stuff.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just got a call from my friend and fellow Amphead John Wayland. He played
me a recording of a conservative talk show he called into and blew the hosts
mind about performance EVs. He was one of these typical types that believes
that EVs are gutless and slow. He even gave out Johns URL for Plasma Boy
Racing. John told me the hits to his site were going crazy. Way to go, John!
Maybe there will be a few more spectators at Woodburn this year to see for
themselves.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 8/29/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guy A had his car's tranny measured on CNC table for $300
(or whatever) so he had his adapter plate made using this data.
Guy B who wanted to convert own vehicle (same model), not to
reinvent a wheel and duplicate efforts, asked for the data,
so he can fabricate his own plate as well.
Should guy A give the data for free?
Should he charge every single one approaching him with this question?
What would *you* do in guy A's shoes?
Thanks,
Victor
(Disclaimer - this is not about me, my CRX or the plate for it).
--- End Message ---
