EV Digest 4681
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: High current draw AGM battery capacity
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Modified that Beetle
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Brainstorm on Tango style design.
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 924 EV
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 924 EV
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Modified that Beetle
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: A few questions...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Buses talk...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: High current draw AGM battery capacity
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Closed tailgate of the truck
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: AGM battery mgmt system
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Kilovac score on Ebay (and sniping)
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AGM battery mgmt system
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AGM battery mgmt system
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Modified that Beetle
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: RPM question
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 99' Bombardier quest
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) more, cheap, good aero mods for new, old Beetles, Re: Modified that
Beetle
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Barber wrote:
I have seen John Wayland post many times that AGM batteries have higher
capacity at high current draws than floodeds. I'm looking at the Hawker
Odysseys at this link
http://www.portablepower.com/products/slabatteries/Odyssey.asp
and I'm wondering what the capacity one could expect out of them when making
electric vehicle type current draws from them. I'm thinking this would be
sustained draws of 50A or so with a nominal pack voltage of 240V at 45mph
(assuming 250 watt hours per mile), with 1000A draws from stops, and a few
hundred amps into the pack with regen braking to a stop.
I love the Hawker Genesis series (same as Odyssey, with the diff being
the Odyssey has heavier interconnects). The first gen Genesis had sloped
tops, and tended to blow up interconnects. The second generation look
like the Odyssey, with square tops and much heavier interconnects.
I use two strings of the 26ah batteries in a 300 volt system (50
batteries). Boy, they tuck out of sight *well*. They're in a tray under
the car and take up no trunk or interior space.
I know Optima yellow tops are used frequently for people who want an AGM
battery in their EV. What is the rated capacity (Ah) vs experienced
capacity for all you AGM users out there?
My pack is rated 52ah.
Hah.
Really it's 40ah because that's the C discharge rate and my cruising
speed of 65mph equals out to about 60a draw at 300 volts.
I took my car last night 30 miles highway on 22ah. Not bad. I have no
performance problems, can hit the pack with 200amp acceleration (60kw)
for periods of time (30 seconds+) without dropping voltage below 285
fully charged and 282 at 10ah down. Even at the end of the run last
night the pack would sink to 275 or so at 160amp draws.
However I won't take the pack lower than 28ah down. Mainly because I
don't have a voltage monitor per battery and the one thing that will
kill a Hawker is to reverse it. Even better, reverse it at 100+amp draw.
Overall though I would not trade them for the world. I've driven Forces
with Deka batteries and they seem well... pokey. Same with flooded
cells. I like the ability to come up an on-ramp to the highway and punch
it up to 65mph without worrying about being run over. Yes this cuts my
range, but the batteries can handle it.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Don,
Did you see the refinement that this chap made to his Beetle to lower
the Coefficient of Drag (Cd) from .38 to .28 (estimated I assume).
http://www.max-mpg.com/html/tech/main.htm
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:20 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for
newbies; philosophizing
Jerry, good point. A lighter vehicle and or more aero vehicle is a
great way to improve range. If there is one lesson I have learned with
the New Beetle is that it is **not** a small or lightweight car.
Nowhere similar to its predecessor.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen this done with an ICE VW Bug. One of the more difficult parts
is dealing with the front and rear glass. On an old Bug, the glass was
not curved, so any good auto glass shop could make new front and rear
windows.
cheers,
Andrew
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I am inspired by the Tango. Basically it is a car split in half. I
was thinking an Aspire or maybe a Civic cut in half (hood to trunk)
would be a very usefull vehicle. Two seater with the back seat
folding down. I have two fork lift motors They would fit great on the
back axle of a chopped Aspire. (you might need that stiff axle to hold
it all.) The Forklift is 15 or so to one. You'd need to use some
large diameter wheels to get it going at a reasonable speed.
Everything you need is there. You would have to change the front end
a bit. Make the car a rear motor vehicle or maybe use 3 motors And
make it a 4wd vehicle. I'm thinking using stainless steel boxes under
the floor boards. With ladders between the batteries. Maybe 13
EV-145's or 20 exides or optimas. The car would be longer and lower
than a Tango. That may or may not work out. It would be lighter &
highly modified but I think with the right welding I could do it. It
would keep the same cockpit feel and use all the same fenders and
quarterpanels & maybe even the doors. Getting the batteries low under
the passengers is esential. The forklift assemblies have 5 lug wheel
holders. Very stout. With a zilla to divert the power between 2 to 3
motors I'd be fast too. The ratio of the forklift reduction might be
too much even with large diameter wheels & tires. Anybody done this?
Maybe the Reverend? Otmar has made vehicles longer.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not a flame, honest question, how did you engineer that "It would
require a lot more than 1"x1/8" angle iron and some 1/4" bolts."?
What would you recommend for safety, and how did you compute that?
Steel car wheels and truck beds are around 1/8" thick. The car wheel
handles ~3000 lbs of weight and torque. The truck bed can hold
literally a ton of rocks. Your car's motor and transmission bolt onto
the car's sheet metal at just a handful of points.
Where I do agree is 1/4" bolts may not be enough. Wheel bolts, truck
bed bolts, and motor mounts all have much larger bolts.
--- Ray Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > A question for you: how do you suggest people stress battery
> boxes to 3g?
> > FEA? Crash testing?
>
> 3X the weight of the batts and build the structure to support that
> amount.
> It would require a lot more than 1"x1/8" angle iron and some 1/4"
> bolts.
> With some of the cars I hear being converted I wonder how long the
> doors
> will continue to open and close before the excess weight causes the
> body
> shell to begin to collapse.
______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The 944 layout is different from the 914 and the 924 and 911.
Umm, the 944 is EXACTLY the same layout as the 924. The only difference
is the fenders and 'some' of the engine options.
For example, while most 924s have an audi(?) engine, the 924S has exactly
the same engine as a basic 944. Basically the ony difference between a
base 944 and a 924S, is that the 944 has wider fenders, so the 924S is
faster (better aerodynamics).
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meta Bus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 6:17 AM
Subject: Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
> .02-
>
> As a newbie hoping to find and share information on building,
> maintaining and living with an EV as my main form of transportation, I
> also admit to having little interest in electric (or gas) drag racing.
>
> I find myself skipping past the NEDRA/Woodburn posts, searching for
> practical advice on batteries, motors, and the real-world experiences of
> EV-people in a petro-world.
>
> Regards,
> Jim Davis
>
Whoa!!
Us hot rod Evers ARE the ones kicking and shaping the EV world into
line.
Ever think we might actually run our EVs on the street???? HUmmm?
I for one installed a pack of Orbitals in my Street EV Goldie, just
yesterday, I also installed the Rudman Regulators... and wired it all up.
This is a rather practical EV experience. Just remember Us Races do in a
afternoon what a lot or EVers take years to do. WE are ones with the hands
on practical experience.
I am looking forward to 20 mile range AND tire smoke on command.
Hey race season is basicly over... I want my 2 cents a mile back....I NEED
it!.
Also since I am the Name behind Madman's 100 club... Ths point OF the
Madman's 100...... IS FAST STREET EVs.
So as a newbie, you have just slapped the face of those folks who would like
to help you and have a very good track record of doing just that.
Please think about what you are saying.... before you jump off the deep
end...
Rich Rudman
Madman
Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not sure the guy who has made the mod fully understands aerodynamics. The
purpose of winglets on Aircraft is to reduce vortices where the high and
low pressure on either side of the wings tries to equalise by moving air
around the wing tip. These winglets (as fitted to Virgin 747 etc) do this
job very well - but in a car !!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:43 PM
Subject: Modified that Beetle
> Hey Don,
>
> Did you see the refinement that this chap made to his Beetle to lower
> the Coefficient of Drag (Cd) from .38 to .28 (estimated I assume).
>
> http://www.max-mpg.com/html/tech/main.htm
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Don Cameron
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:20 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for
> newbies; philosophizing
>
> Jerry, good point. A lighter vehicle and or more aero vehicle is a
> great way to improve range. If there is one lesson I have learned with
> the New Beetle is that it is **not** a small or lightweight car.
> Nowhere similar to its predecessor.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/93 - Release Date: 08/09/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Well first off, you probably don't want a 1:1 ratio. Most electric
>> motors, that are suitable for a Motorcyle, get their best
>> efficiency/power
>> when spinning at about 3,000-4,000 rpm. So unless you are planning on
>> using 6" wheels, you'll probably want a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio.
>>
> So my idea of a through-the-hub motor to save space is impractical... ah
> well
>
Well, perhaps not impractical, but currently uneconomical. NGM makes a
direct drive hub motor, I believe it costs something like $10,000.
There are a lot of bicycle and scooter hub motors, but as far as I know,
these all use internal gears.
Rabbittool.com carries a nice looking 500watt hub motor. Not enough power
to go 60 mph, not even enough to go 40mph. But if you used one on the
front and one on the back, you might be able to go 30-35 mph.
I've seen a 2hp(?) hub motor recently, but I can't remember where. Some
chinese scooter comes with them.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well said John!
Some people don't realize that racing is what won people over to automobiles
in the early 1900's.
Henry Ford learned that lesson, and used it to promote his early cars.
Racing is your R & D Department.
Hopefully it can do for EV's today what it did for ICE's a hundred years
ago.
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wayland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 9:53 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
Hello to All, but especially Jim,
Meta Bus wrote:
> As a newbie hoping to find and share information on building,
> maintaining and living with an EV as my main form of transportation, I
> also admit to having little interest in electric (or gas) drag racing.
>
> I find myself skipping past the NEDRA/Woodburn posts, searching for
> practical advice on batteries, motors, and the real-world experiences
> of EV-people in a petro-world.
Jim, ever hear the expression 'Can't see the forest for all the trees'?
How about his one...'Racing improves the breed.'? Your comments are
interesting, to say the least. The very posts you admit to bypassing are
written by the guys who probably know more about EVs than most here on this
EVDL. They are the ones that design and build the chargers, controllers,
etc. that people like you, will most likely be using in your EV.
Rich Rudman, an electric drag racer and writer of these posts you skip by,
makes the battery regulators and PFC chargers that have helped shape most of
the conversions you're interested in. If it weren't for electric drag
racing, there would be no PFC chargers....Rich learned from the stresses of
needing to efficiently and quickly charge hungry drag EVs at the track, that
the EV community needed an affordable, quality, high powered charger. We
were flipping our generators' breakers and blowing line breakers, too, at
the track, when a light went off in Rich's head about charger inefficiency.
Rod Wilde, a drag racer who holds impressive records, is president of NEDRA,
and is the operator of EV Parts where may go to get EV conversion hardware,
is another who you are skipping by...he's been involved in too many EV
conversions to list. His racing reports and the successes and failures of
components at the track, are items you are missing out on.
Otmar Ebenhoech, owner of Cafe Electric and designer-builder of arguably the
finest DC motor controller one can buy, is also an electric drag racer and
proves his designs first, at the drag track...you've bypassed him, too. If
it weren't for electric drag racing, there probably would be no Zilla line
of controllers. The first Otmar higher powered controller found its way into
Rod Wilde's RX7 racer back in '94. The first ever Godzilla was under the
hood of White Zombie in '97, and was even named by yours truly after its
monstrous performance.
Jim Husted of Hi Torque Electric, a new guy here himself, is turning out to
be 'the guy' when it comes to the electric motors we all use in our
EVs....you're bypassing valuable information he's been writing about drag
racing, too. Wanting to know more about his craft, Jim has wisely hooked up
with the electric drag racers. The lessons learned from the stresses on
electric motors in electric drag racing go directly into improving street
reliability for a conversion, and Jim has already put some of what he's
learned into motors intended for street conversion...the very stuff 'you'
should be very interested in. Of course, since you've bene skipping the
racing posts, you probably have already missed all the important info about
the motor problem we had and how it's already been diagnosed and repaired.
The newest generation of EVers like the Austin EV group of Mark, Chris, and
Shawn, guys who are the geek experts and know the high tech stuff you should
be concerned about when it comes to the data stream of info that now runs
through most of the latest EV hardwre being made and offered for
conversions, were all at the recent electric drags investing their time and
extensive knowledge....yeah, you missed all their write-ups, too. You
probably missed their links included in their 'racing posts' that lead you
to valuable graphs and stats.
I've put together more than 100 EVs, and have contributed to the EVDL now
for 11 years. I have helped in the behind the scenes design and development
of many of the EV products you'll be looking into. It's a safe bet to say
that most of the batteries EVers now use in their conversions, were tested
and improved at the drag track. I was one of the very first to use Optimas,
but tested them at the drag track...now they're a common everyday conversion
battery of choice. Ever hear about Exide Orbitals? Funny, it was Rudman and
my extreme power tests on these batteries and they're successful use in
'electric drag racing' that brought them to the foreground for conversion
use.
All the above electric drag racers (with exception to Jim Husted - currently
preparing his first EV...read his latest post) also drive EVs off the track,
too. All the above had built these EVs themselves and have helped countless
others do the same. Many of the above have been involved and helped put on
EV shows, been in video productions, and have been in magazine write-ups.
Jim, I have to say that reading your post really lit me up. You've got the
movers and shakers of the EV world freely sharing valuable lessons of how
all the things you should be interested in work, hold up, get improved, and
get to the market place for guys like you.....and you then say that you skip
past their posts in your search for practical advice on batteries, motors,
and the real-world experiences of EV-people?
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Boy we are getting our share of foolish statments today Aren't We????
The Fastest Ev dragster can do 150 plus with stout AGMs
We have a bike that ran 150. So... even 300 MPH ... for Top Fuel and Funny
Car. We are 1/2 way there.
Keep in mind we have our share of 100 mph Street cars... Not 100 Dragsters,
But street cars.
And the 300 mph crowd has 100s of thousands of dollars a year in
sponsorship. Even our fastest EV Bike and dragsters.. have maybe $50,000
invested in them Even our fastest doesn't rate more than a
a Hobbiest in the cashflow that the Big boys burn through even on a normal
weekend.
If You gave 100,000 Bucks to any of us racers... and we will be over 150 and
headed to 200 in months if not weeks.
Can you imagine John Force doing a EV just few million to play with??? 5
seconds and 300 IS possible with the right funding and team.
With Luck the White Zombie has a chance of 110 this fall. Heck it's only 6
more MPH from where he is now.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 8:02 AM
Subject: RE: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
>
> >While few electric dragsters can exceed 100 mph, the faster ICE racers
can
> exceed 300 mph.
>
> Umm.. Those aren't cars. They are purpose built dragsters. There's no
reason we can't build a 5 second 300mph electric either. Give me sponsorship
and I'll have it ready for the 2006 Vegas opener.
>
> Door slammers at my local track rarely exceed 110mph, the fastest ones are
right around 140.
>
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You will find that some equipment that is used in race cars that are built to
heavy-duty, super-reinforced, industrial grade specifications, are used in EV's
that are need to with stand the increase weight and start up thrust and
increases the performance of the EV.
I ran my 1975 Chevelle EV from 1975 to 1980 with standard stock equipment,
which all had to replace.
The axil bearings were worn out.
The pinion and ring gear has increase wear, which cause more back lass.
All suspension parts which includes upper and lower ball joints, strut
bushings, and all bushings in the front and rear had to be replace.
Brake pads where replace twice.
Wheel studs broken off and replaced.
Shocks were replace twice.
So in 1985 I started to used all racing components in my EV. I'am still going
today without any replacements.
Many of the items I used is from:
JEG'S - High Performance Mail Order or jegs.com
I used there electric water pump and control system which protects the
electrical system by preventing excessive amperage draw for my hot water
heating system.
They have Cool Cans system for cooling liquids which can be used for a water
cool motor controller.
I am using there Vacuum Pumps that achieve vacuum sooner and Vacuum tanks with
check valves, that allow several braking while it is off. There is no POP POP
sounds.
Transmission or oil coolers with electric fans for cooling a motor controller
with water cooling.
Ring and Pinion sets that will take a higher thrust that ranges from 3.42:1 to
6.33:1 gear ratios.
High performance Brake Rotors and Brake Pads.
Metallic Performance clutch, flywheel and high pressure pressure plates, that
you will need if you coming from a dead stop. (These are still like brand new
after 15 years)
A transmission adapter that is bolted to my transmission directly to the GE
motor which is design to fit any bell housing.
Torque Converters that is normally used on automatic transmission, but can be
used on manual transmission when you stack up several together. I not using
this, but in my next mod, I thinking about it.
If you stack up 5 Torque Converters with a ratio of 1.8:1, you have a variable
ratio transmission of 1.8 x 1.8 x 1.8 x 1.8 x 1.8 = 18.89:1 down to 1:1. You
only used final gear and reversed in your transmission. This is how some of
these cars go over 300 mph in a quarter mile.
Many industrial machines used this method of transmission.
I replace my axils, spindles, bearings with Mark Williams Chassic and Driveline
Components. www.markwilliams.com<http://www.markwilliams.com/>
My GM type bearings and axils worn completely out in less than 5 years, replace
once with standard and worn out again.
These Mark William axils are twice the diameter and have 3 inch roller bearings
with outer and inner races. They with stand a dead weight of 22,000 lbs and a
thrust of 4000 lbs.
All my Suspension units, including all steel A-arms and thrust arms with all
bearings and bushings made with polygraphite are from:
PST Performance Suspension Technology- www.p-s-t.com<http://www.p-s-t.com/>
My shock and springs units are from Air Ride Technologies -
www.ridetech.com<http://www.ridetech.com/>
These are a air system, where you do not used coil springs or standard shocks.
You can adjust them for a maximum and minimum jog and can adjust any height
with air between theses heights.
With the increase weight in a EV, you either will have to have stiffer springs
giving a stiff ride. With the Air-Springs, I can adjust my EV 4 inches lower
or 4 inches higher, which levels it out and can make it ride like a baby buggy.
One thing I could do with my EV which is now a 1977 El Camino, is to lighten
it. They make carbon fiber panels for this entire car and with a chrome moly
frame, which a company up the road makes, has lighten this type of car from
4500 lbs down to 1800 lbs, which is with a engine and driver which goes about
300 mph in a quarter mile:
So you see, Racing Technoiogies, Design, and components can be used to greatly
improved you EV.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Meta Bus<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
.02-
As a newbie hoping to find and share information on building,
maintaining and living with an EV as my main form of transportation, I
also admit to having little interest in electric (or gas) drag racing.
I find myself skipping past the NEDRA/Woodburn posts, searching for
practical advice on batteries, motors, and the real-world experiences of
EV-people in a petro-world.
Regards,
Jim Davis
John Wayland wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> Man, I can't sit here and not respond to this! Chip has already done a
> great job of answering Tom's post, but I just have to add my two cents
> worth. Tom, I couldn't disagree with you more.
>
> Tom Shay wrote:
>
>> .....the basic problem is that not very many people
>> are interested in racing of battery electric vehicles.
>> Let's admit that electric drag racing excites hardly anyone except the
>> participants.
>
>
> No, I won't admit that at all. Tom, I haven't seen you at PIR on a
> Friday or Saturday.....how would you know whether electric drag racing
> there excites anyone? At these nighttime street drags, where hundreds of
<snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I still don't believe your bus will hold up for 228 years with only 1
> undetected error.... In fact I bet you will have a hard time pointing out
> to me anything manmade that will work for that much time at all let alone
> error free... If it's not for marketing, what's the point of making a
> claim
> that is so obviously unrealistic.
>
Ok, my statistics are rusty, so I'm pretty sure this is wrong, but...
The MTBF is a cumulative thing isn't it?
I.e. one bus might have an undetectable error once every 228 years or 228
buses might have an undetected error once a year on one of the busses.
Once a year IS a concern.
The point is that once every 228 years does NOT mean I won't experience an
undetected error for 228 years. It could happen 5 minutes after powering
up.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We are seeing rated capacity if we keep our amp draws under 500 amps
Typically in practice we can actually get 1/2 the rated amphours for 100s of
cycles.
And full amphours if we are really carefull.... AKA Eco Geek mode, no tire
smoke.
I have a fresh pack of Orbs on line in Goldie, I am in the process of
breaking them in and gettting them equalized....We will see.
250 Watts hr per mile is a well setup EV.... it will take some effort to
actually record this performace level.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Barber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 7:35 AM
Subject: High current draw AGM battery capacity
> I have seen John Wayland post many times that AGM batteries have higher
> capacity at high current draws than floodeds. I'm looking at the Hawker
> Odysseys at this link
>
> http://www.portablepower.com/products/slabatteries/Odyssey.asp
>
> and I'm wondering what the capacity one could expect out of them when
making
> electric vehicle type current draws from them. I'm thinking this would be
> sustained draws of 50A or so with a nominal pack voltage of 240V at 45mph
> (assuming 250 watt hours per mile), with 1000A draws from stops, and a few
> hundred amps into the pack with regen braking to a stop.
>
> I know Optima yellow tops are used frequently for people who want an AGM
> battery in their EV. What is the rated capacity (Ah) vs experienced
> capacity for all you AGM users out there?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The gas mileage on my Nissan Frontier improved measureably when I added a
bed cover.
I don't recall the exact amount, about 2 mpg on the highway IIRC.
> what about a bed cover? help or hurt?
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a problem with this statment.
Since I AM the guy who invented Rudman Regs and have them on all my
personal EVs.
This just is not true.
Rudman Regs and a good charger will get you the rated life cycles of your
AGMs. Been there done it got 5x the rated life out of my old Yellow tops.
Rudman Regs and a PFC charger better get you darn good range and life... or
you simply never tuned the system correctly.
What else may I ask is needed to keep AGMs alive??? Beside a voltage
regualted charger and Peak voltage limiting battery regulators????
What don't I know?
Educate me....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: AGM battery mgmt system
> James Massey wrote:
> "Apart from that, the choices pretty much come down to
> DIY solutions. I am using some cheap programmable logic
> controllers to integrate the signals from the Rudman
> regs, and control a dumb-as-a-brick transformer charger in
> a manner that the AGMs and regulators should be happy with."
>
> James, are you saying that battery management systems, like
> the Rudman regulators are insufficient alone to work with
> AGMs?
>
> I wonder what others' experiences have been with BMS? Has
> anyone tried PowerCheq?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philip,
It's difficult to buy popular items on Ebay w/out "fighting fire with
fire." Don Cameron's thoughts on the issue reflect my own.
I was wondering if the other bidder was also on the EVDL list. I've
always been a little freaked out about the high cost of an item that's
essentially a glorified relay (I know, there are other considerations
about arcing and blowout, but these were solved 100 years ago). As such,
I'm always on the lookout for a deal on Ebay, as I'm in the process of
collecting EV components; an expensive hobby.
In any case, I would have been happy with one or the other -- I bid on
both to hedge my bets.
I'm *really* hoping that they're truly "new" -- as I understand it, a
used Kilovac of unknown origin isn't much of a deal.
Now I just have to keep my eye out for some cheap Ferraz-Shawmut fuses
-- $40 each? Wow ...
Philip Marino wrote:
Congratulations, Eric
I was the only other bidder. I was just looking for spares, so I
didn't bid very high.
Here's a suggestion about getting " sniped". Just bid the maximum you
are willing to pay for the item(and, bid early). Then, you can't
complain if someone else is willing to pay more than you are - no
matter when they place their bid.
Phil Marino
Echo in progress
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Managed to pick up a Kilovac EV250-2A (Czonka II) and a Kilovac
EV200AAANA (Czonka III) on ebay. $90 for both, including shipping.
Both are new, 12V coil, with economizers.
After getting sniped on a lot of 10 Vicor 150 to 12VDC 200W power
supplies, it was nice to get a good deal. I'm pretty stoked. The
EV250 alone retails for $300+
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup...
more than 4 12 volt batteries or 24 cells.
This is the standard number.
The actual data is if you can't keep the batteries close enough to each
other in final charge voltage the one or more excededs the gassing and
venting voltage threshold.
Only a meter and some measuring will trully tell you when you need a BMS.
Keep in mind a lot of folks think a BMS just measures the voltages, a REAL
BMS actually does something about
the state of charge of the batteries.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabriel Alarcon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 3:11 PM
Subject: AGM battery mgmt system
> Does anybody know when a BMS is required for AGM's? For instance, when a
certain number are wired in series, parallel or a combination of those.
What BMS are commercially available out there?
>
> Gabe.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excuse a newbie battery question but what actually happens to a Pb battery
when it is of no further use. Is it silted up ??. I remember reading about U
boat batteries that they used to open up and clear the crap out of to stop
the plates shorting out - can modern flooded hi discharge batts be washed
out and refilled with acid ?
N.B I realise with gel or other sealed types it would be tricky :-))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: AGM battery mgmt system
> I have a problem with this statment.
>
> Since I AM the guy who invented Rudman Regs and have them on all my
> personal EVs.
>
> This just is not true.
>
> Rudman Regs and a good charger will get you the rated life cycles of your
> AGMs. Been there done it got 5x the rated life out of my old Yellow tops.
>
> Rudman Regs and a PFC charger better get you darn good range and life...
or
> you simply never tuned the system correctly.
>
> What else may I ask is needed to keep AGMs alive??? Beside a voltage
> regualted charger and Peak voltage limiting battery regulators????
>
> What don't I know?
> Educate me....
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 5:04 AM
> Subject: Re: AGM battery mgmt system
>
>
> > James Massey wrote:
> > "Apart from that, the choices pretty much come down to
> > DIY solutions. I am using some cheap programmable logic
> > controllers to integrate the signals from the Rudman
> > regs, and control a dumb-as-a-brick transformer charger in
> > a manner that the AGMs and regulators should be happy with."
> >
> > James, are you saying that battery management systems, like
> > the Rudman regulators are insufficient alone to work with
> > AGMs?
> >
> > I wonder what others' experiences have been with BMS? Has
> > anyone tried PowerCheq?
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/93 - Release Date: 08/09/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
I agree with you... I always wanted winglets on my sailplane for that purpose.
Could these be designed to assist in stabilizing the car in windy conditions?
Thinking out loud here but the "winglets" could assist in channeling the
airflow rearward thereby reducing turbulent airflow. Similar to how winglets
reduce spanward flow in an A/C.
How this would work in comparing my old sailplanes 20 meter wingspan vrs the 4
foot Bettle wing is beyond my knowledge. Any Aeronautical Engineers want to
give it a go?
Noel
[The original message will be inserted by the server.]
-----Original Message-----
From: "John Luck Home"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 9/9/05 9:06:17 AM
To: "ev@listproc.sjsu.edu"<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Modified that Beetle
Not sure the guy who has made the mod fully understands aerodynamics. The
purpose of winglets on Aircraft is to reduce vortices where the high and
low pressure on either side of the wings tries to equalize by moving air
around the wing tip. These winglets (as fitted to Virgin 747 etc) do this
job very well - but in a car !!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:43 PM
Subject: Modified that Beetle
> Hey Don,
>
> Did you see the refinement that this chap made to his Beetle to lower
> the Coefficient of Drag (Cd) from .38 to .28 (estimated I assume).
>
> http://www.max-mpg.com/html/tech/main.htm
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Don Cameron
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:20 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for
> newbies; p
[Message truncated. Tap Edit->Mark for Download to get remaining portion.]
-----Unmodified Original Message-----
Not sure the guy who has made the mod fully understands aerodynamics. The
purpose of winglets on Aircraft is to reduce vortices where the high and
low pressure on either side of the wings tries to equalise by moving air
around the wing tip. These winglets (as fitted to Virgin 747 etc) do this
job very well - but in a car !!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:43 PM
Subject: Modified that Beetle
> Hey Don,
>
> Did you see the refinement that this chap made to his Beetle to lower
> the Coefficient of Drag (Cd) from .38 to .28 (estimated I assume).
>
> http://www.max-mpg.com/html/tech/main.htm
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Don Cameron
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:20 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for
> newbies; philosophizing
>
> Jerry, good point. A lighter vehicle and or more aero vehicle is a
> great way to improve range. If there is one lesson I have learned with
> the New Beetle is that it is **not** a small or lightweight car.
> Nowhere similar to its predecessor.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/93 - Release Date: 08/09/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your system is nice for a Golf Cart... not really up to a full ON Road
conversion.
The 72 volts is barely enough to sustain traffic integration, and to
accelerate reasonalby. The Altrax... how many amp, controller???
The D&D motor, what size what's it's rated power???
You are going to have a slow under powered traffic impediment.
Altrax used to make Raptor 600 amp and 1200 amp 156 volt controllers...
These had little issues with keeping up...
As you can see your drive will have less than 1/2 the power even the 600 amp
Raptor had.
I am not sure the Altrax run hard with a big pack can take the continuous
loads you will be subjecting it to. You are going to have problems.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefano Landi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 4:36 PM
Subject: RPM question
> A thread on this must have shot through the EVDL many a time, could
someone
> be so kind as to indicate the archive if you happen to know. I did Google
it
> but never came across anything, then again it was 3 AM when I did that.
> Basically I'm looking for a circuit/idea for making an RPM for my
upcoming
> D & D / Altrax / 72V US battery Ford Festiva conversion.
> Any help would be appreciated.
> Stefano
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 08:28:26 -0400, "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>There is a federal restriction imbedded in the VIN number I found out. (Comes
>up "low speed vehicle" on the DMV computer). The chief bimbette at the DMV
>told me the vehicle was fine for titling as a car before I bought it but
>didn't want to use here name. The person who sold it on Ebay had their phone
>disconnected and doesn't respond to email. So I'm going to apply for a title
>from the bill of sale and previous registration from "Georgia Power & Light"
>and a cop then inspects it at the DMV. I did this on my cheese wedge about 25
>years ago, I remember the cop shaking his head and said "buddy, your lucky I'm
>in a good mood" and signed it off. If not I'll resell it as a glorified golf
>cart and not make any speed modifications.
The final say will be the DMV computer and I'm betting with the low
speed title encoded in the VIN, you're stuck. The difference between
this car and the cheese wedge (I call mine the flying door stop) is
that the wedge has a real, legitimate highway car VIN. That fact is
something that I point out to those who make fun of the wedge. That
VIN is worth its weight in gold.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John, Noel and All,
John Luck Home <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Not sure the guy who has made the mod fully understands aerodynamics. The
He may not but he is ahead of your knowledge. What he has done
is an excellent way to make a rather bad aero car into a fairly aero car. Aero
is not really as it seems until you have done a lot of it, then it makes sense
but most cars that look aero, aren't.
purpose of winglets on Aircraft is to reduce vortices where the high and
low pressure on either side of the wings tries to equalise by moving air
Lets see, he has a short wing. He has 2 larger wingtips. He would
have large vortexes if he didn't have the tips to keep the fast air on top from
generating vortexes going around his wingtips to the slower air below. So since
they do stop large vortexes and large vortexes are air drag, it works well.
And the wing in the first place stops the vortexes that if the air was
allowed to continue downward along the trunk would come out into larger
vortexes so his wing does help a lot. I'm not sure it will drop his CD down to
.28, but diffinately worthwhile.
Now if he or Don would add little 1/2" spoilers to the fender next to
the wing so the air seperates there instead of being draged down into vortexes,
would decrease the drag another 5-10%.
With both of these I'd bet high speed range would increase at least
20%, maybe 25%. Add rear wheel skirts, front, side air dams for another 5-10%
drag reduction.
Another % or 2 could be from on the front fender from the windshield
post line outward and then down the aft part of the fender about 3-4" behind
the wheelwell a vortex generator or 1/4" high spoiler should be mounted to
trigger a small vortex in order to keep a larger one from forming.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
around the wing tip. These winglets (as fitted to Virgin 747 etc) do this
job very well - but in a car !!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel P. Luneau"
To:
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:43 PM
Subject: Modified that Beetle
> Hey Don,
>
> Did you see the refinement that this chap made to his Beetle to lower
> the Coefficient of Drag (Cd) from .38 to .28 (estimated I assume).
>
> http://www.max-mpg.com/html/tech/main.htm
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Don Cameron
> Jerry, good point. A lighter vehicle and or more aero vehicle is a
> great way to improve range. If there is one lesson I have learned with
> the New Beetle is that it is **not** a small or lightweight car.
> Nowhere similar to its predecessor.
>
> Don
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
