EV Digest 4688
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: What charger to use?
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) spousal opinion changes, Re: Used EV's
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EVDL FAQ? Wikfy it perhaps?
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: What charger to use?
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What charger to use?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 2 strings and an EMeter
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: spousal opinion changes, Re: Used EV's
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: What charger to use?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: I Can't Afford My Gasoline
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EVLN(KIA Pride hybrid production in 2006)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Used EV's
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Battery choices
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Attachments on the list
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) "Power lust" and it's "collateral damage" Was: EV and vehicle speeds
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) 300 MPH Quarter EV Technology
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Used EV's
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: CBC Radio One, Re: EV pulbicity
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I have been researching this and am considering 3 or 4 bank marine chargers
that are AGM rated with microprocessor control. They are also called
"onboard" chargers and will fit nicely in a vehicle.(nice looking too). The
nice thing is they treat each battery as an individual and there is
apparently no risk of a big burnout like you get in a series string. I need
to check some other things like whether they can develop ground loops, etc,
but have to believe the engineers thought of that. (Most switch mode
supplies are inherently isolated) You have the advantage of having backups
available if one fails, rather than the whole charger dying and leaving you
stranded.
I am going with AGM batteries, but a $2000 charger that will burn them out
without optional regulators doesn't impress me. 3 or 4 high quality boat
chargers can be purchased for under $1000. I figure the $40 or so I save on
regulators for each battery is also a factor. I sense an overall lack of
confidence in series charging methods vs the longevity of AGM batteries..at
least from what I have read on the forum.
Plug and go....if my predictions are correct.
Incidentally they are available in currents up to 30 amps, run an automated
drop down and float level, programmable for AGMs.
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 9:09 PM
Subject: What charger to use?
Hello Everybody:
Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system, the
other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to provide
both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully automatic
charging ('fire and forget').
What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve & all,
My last deal was the school teacher . She is paying me $100 / per month
and every time I talk to her she just goes on and on about all the people
she has shown it to and how interested everybody is . I guess I just enjoy
seeing the EV grin on somebody's else's face .......
.....................................
At times I feel like a very lucky guy , Steve Clunn
Steve, is your wife now more favourably inclined towards EVs, what with more
of them being rented out and the increased price of gas?
It seems that the rising price at the pumps, as I predicted, and having a
reporter and photographer come to the house and then a favourable article in
the city newspaper, interviews on radio etc. serves as good "third party
validation".
Anyone else have some experiences of their interest in EVs being viewed in a
more favourable light recently, due to fuel price trends and supply
concerns?
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: Used EV's
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember seeing a '75 or there abouts electric Malibu back in the day. It
was in the paper, and the owner was someone famous (Marty Robins?) The
quarter windows were filled in.
David C. Wilker Jr.
United States Air Force, Retired
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
...I ran my 1975 Chevelle EV from 1975 to 1980 with standard stock
equipment,
which all had to replace.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org
>>
> So why not just use the Wikipedia as a home for the FAQ? I've thought
> it would be great if the Wikipedia section for electric vehicles had
> more EVDL member contribution. Since this resource is widely used, it
> would make sense to put the FAQ there.
Absolutely! It's a solid site which should be around for a while.
But I can't do it alone, and many people there don't believe me when
I mention things that are common here on the EVDL, like 100mph EV's,
dump charging and such. I'm sure collectively we have enough
information to greatly expand the EV (Maglev, Trams, Scooters..),
BEV (Battery EV specific), and Conversion (One guy working on it) areas.
Wikipedia is used by a whole lot of people on line as a reference tool.
If they are looking for BEV info they might (as I do) find it lacking.
L8r
Ryan
ps. Be aware they don't like POV (Point of View), it's an Encyclopedia!
. . People will call you out (a good thing) when you add your opinion.
. . There are Discussion pages for that sort of thing...
pps. Here's what kind of things are there already...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Electric_vehicles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle
Conversions, Battery_Packs, Regulators, Balancers, Pusher_Trailers..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Hybrid_vehicles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid_electric_vehicle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_vehicle
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I kind of have the same situation . I'm planning on getting a PFC 50 to
charge my lawn mower , ( dose that sound funny ?) any way I'll be running
it from My work trucks battery pack ( 150v now but I'll be adding more )
and charging between yards , but there will be times when I;d like to charge
the truck with it also , I'm wondering if I used one of Riches regs on both
the lawn mower and the truck and let them talk the the charger , , or have
Rich make one with a plug in place of the 10 trun little screw pot , then
get 2 10 trun pots and a dpdt switch to switch between the two .
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system, the
other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to provide
both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully automatic
charging ('fire and forget').
What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
http://www.manzanitamicro.com
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John and others:
> At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
>>Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system, the
>>other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to
>> provide
>>both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully automatic
>>charging ('fire and forget').
>>
>>What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
>
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com
Thank you. From what I understand, the PFC-50 would be able to be run
off a 110 V 'normal' outlet with its throttle (kind of a worst case
scenario) adjusted ?
Anybody here able (willing?) to sell me a charger asap (my Zivan just died
I need my car back :)
mm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You will need two separate meters. One for each half of the string. You will
also need two separate DCDC converters to run them. Do not connect both
meters to the same computer unless the data runs through an isolator.
Make sure you have some sort of battery monitor operating when charging. Any
imbalance in the string capacities will be exacerbated by the parallel
discharge and series charge arrangement. It will show up as overcharging,
gassing, and venting the lower capacity string during charge.
It is better to charge and discharge in the same configuration. You should
stick with either series or parallel to do both the discharge and charge
cycles.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 8:10 PM
Subject: 2 strings and an EMeter
> I am considering running two 180 volt strings in parallel to lower the
voltage of the traction components. But I would like to charge them with a
PFC as one string at twice the voltage. It requires a few extra contactors
but shouldn't be too bad. The charging will be low current, high voltage.
Driving will be higher current but lower voltage. I'll be limiting the motor
voltage to 150-170. I started thinking about this when someone posted that
the Zilla is more efficient when the pack voltage is close to the motor
voltage.
>
> But how would this setup work with an EMeter? Is there any way to hook up
one Emeter to accurately track both charging and discharging? How about a
Link 1000 that can monitor 2 packs? Could I leave it hooked up to the 2
halves of the pack when charging as a single string?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Hartley" <
.....................................
At times I feel like a very lucky guy , Steve Clunn
Steve, is your wife now more favourably inclined towards EVs, what with
more of them being rented out and the increased price of gas?
and at times I don't ,... No ,she's just glad there out of the yard , ..
Somthing to think about , don't wear the people out around you who just
aren't into it , . We talk very little about ev's and when I'm with her I
don't talk to much about them to others , . If my daughter hadn't told her
she would have never known about the electric lawn mower.
did you hear about the lady who shot her husban cuse she thought He was
having an affair , trunned out that big grin on his fase wasn't from sex ,
Nope , he just bought an electric car.
Steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It doesn't sound as funny as me using my PFC-20 to charge:
-one 36 Volt Flooded NiCad Golf cart.
-Six 7.2 Volt Sealed NiCad RC car battery packs
-Three 12 volt power wheels batteries
-Two 12 volt Zappy Batteries
on a single Saturday afternoon.
Yes, you can put regs on the low voltage pack and it will pull back the
charger to prevent cooking the batteries.
You need to be very careful about making sure the Regbus gets hooked up
because a 50 amp charger can get a 36 volt pack really hot when it thinks it
is a 144 volt pack.
The plug is already on the chargers to switch between the internal
adjustment pot and an external adjustment pot. All you do is plug in the
external adjustment pot and the charger uses it instead of the internal one.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
> I kind of have the same situation . I'm planning on getting a PFC 50 to
> charge my lawn mower , ( dose that sound funny ?) any way I'll be running
> it from My work trucks battery pack ( 150v now but I'll be adding more )
> and charging between yards , but there will be times when I;d like to
charge
> the truck with it also , I'm wondering if I used one of Riches regs on
both
> the lawn mower and the truck and let them talk the the charger , , or have
> Rich make one with a plug in place of the 10 trun little screw pot , then
> get 2 10 trun pots and a dpdt switch to switch between the two .
>
> steve clunn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:42 PM
> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>
>
> > At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
> >>Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system, the
> >>other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to
provide
> >>both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully automatic
> >>charging ('fire and forget').
> >>
> >>What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
> >
> > http://www.manzanitamicro.com
> >
> > --
> > John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What did you hit?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
> But yea I have seen a 2.56 G sensor railed....on street tires.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What a scattershot. Where to start. First off, let's stick to drag
racing, OK? Bonneville is neat but has nothing to do with this thread
on drag racing.
Efficiency regarding a top fuel car? Surely you jest. Nobody gives a
rat's behind about efficiency. A fuelie carries all the fuel it needs
since there is no restriction on fuel capacity. Greater than 90% of
the fuel goes right through the engine and out the pipes to make those
cool flames. All a fuelie cares about is usable power. Key on
usable. A fuelie makes far more power than can be used. The tuning,
engine and clutch, goes into using that power. Something around half
the available power is burned up in the clutch, at least on the first
half of the track.
The fact is, if the NHRA speed limiting restrictions were lifted from
Top Fuel and Funny Car, the ET would drop by at least a half a second
overnight and the speed would go up at least another 50 mph. Even
back in the 92 timeframe when I hung around the Force camp for a
couple of events and wrote about it, I got to study numerous datalog
tapes from his car and saw clearly that the car was at its top speed
by about 2/3rds the way down the track.
I didn't give a rat's patoot about efficiency in my Z either. Under
full boost it probably achieved actual gallons per mile. My goal was
to reach 200 mph by whatever means necessary (top speed, not on the
drag strip) and I did so. I sunk about $10k in the engine in 1985
dollars. How fast can you make an EV go for an entire mile on that
much money?
All the arm waving and dodging weaving and flame-mode-on-ing aside,
you dodged my direct question. I'll repeat it. It was, "given a
megabuck, oh heck, let's make it unlimited funds, tell me in general
terms how you'd achieve 300 mph in the quarter with an EV." Simple
question. You said you could do it. I want to know how. Not
details, just the concept. If not 300mph, then 200. I'm not all that
picky.
Just describing an electrical energy storage and delivery mechanism
that can store enough energy and deliver it fast enough to go 300 mph
in the quarter is enough. No need to complicate things with motors
and drivetrains and tires and all that. Just suggest for me what
might be able to store the energy-equivalent of say, 5 gallons of
nitromethane in a package light enough to have a chance of going fast.
Remember that cost is no object.
BTW, asking you to substantiate one of your claims is neither flaming
you nor "battering EVs." This is a "discussion". I want to discuss
your claim and maybe learn something in the process.
John
On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 21:05:36 -0700, "Roderick Wilde"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>OK john, I'll take you on, on this one. The whole game is horsepower per
>pound in drag racing. I am not sure what the efficiency of a top fuel drag
>racer is but I would be willing to bet it is lower than the best efficiency
>ever gained by an internal combustion engine, around 30 %. The main reason
>electric powered vehicles will dominate all forms of automotive racing in
>the future is a very simple concept that I know you are intelligent enough
>to grasp. It is efficiency and horsepower per pound. Already an electric
>vehicle has topped 325 mph at Bonneville. What part of efficiency don't you
>understand, John. It is a very simple concept. It is all horsepower per
>pound. Bill Dube has already tested high discharge Lithium batteries at his
>lab at NIST at three horsepower per pound. Of course myself or my fellow
>racers can not afford these as we can not also afford to campaign a multi
>million dollar race car. But I will once again try to drill this into your
>head. Horsepower per pound is all that matters!!!!! And efficiency per pound
>makes it all happen,. If you are so sharp John, give us the figures on the
>efficiency of a 300 mph plus drag car. I would also like to see the
>efficiency of your 75 Datsun 280Z. By your implication I am assuming this
>was in the quarter mile. If so I would be impressed. If at Bonneville it is
>not impressive! Go back to your workshop and do something significant with
>your life and stop battering EVS. Flame mode well on!
>
>Roderick Wilde
>"Suck Amps EV Racing"
>www.suckamps.com
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:41 PM
>Subject: Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
>
>
>> On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:10:06 -0700, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Boy we are getting our share of foolish statments today Aren't We????
>>>The Fastest Ev dragster can do 150 plus with stout AGMs
>>>We have a bike that ran 150. So... even 300 MPH ... for Top Fuel and
>>>Funny
>>>Car. We are 1/2 way there.
>>
>> Yes, silly. Given that power required increases with the cube of
>> velocity, at 150 mph, you're barely out of the gates toward 300.
>> Anyone who's joined the 200 mph street car club (75 Datsun 280Z in my
>> case) know that the span from 150 to 200 requires about the same
>> increment of power as getting to 150.
>>
>>>
>>>Keep in mind we have our share of 100 mph Street cars... Not 100
>>>Dragsters,
>>>But street cars.
>>>
>>>And the 300 mph crowd has 100s of thousands of dollars a year in
>>>sponsorship. Even our fastest EV Bike and dragsters.. have maybe $50,000
>>>invested in them Even our fastest doesn't rate more than a
>>>a Hobbiest in the cashflow that the Big boys burn through even on a normal
>>>weekend.
>>>
>>>If You gave 100,000 Bucks to any of us racers... and we will be over 150
>>>and
>>>headed to 200 in months if not weeks.
>>>
>>>Can you imagine John Force doing a EV just few million to play with??? 5
>>>seconds and 300 IS possible with the right funding and team.
>>>
>>
>> I've seen this claim or one similar from several people. Now I'm
>> curious. Please describe the path you'd take to get to 300 mph if you
>> did have a megabuck. No details necessary. Just assume a black box
>> full of FM (fsking magic) as the interface between the energy storage
>> and the motor. Just getting enough energy onboard and delivering it
>> rapidly enough to run that fast will be hard enough. I've been
>> noodling some numbers around and I just don't see it, even with a
>> combo of exotic batteries and some sort of ultra-high rate energy
>> buffer - superconducting flywheel or ???
>>
>> Even 200 in the quarter seems virtually impossible to me. I'd
>> certainly be pleased to be enlightened.
>>
>> John
>> ---
>> John De Armond
>> See my website for my current email address
>> http://www.johngsbbq.com
>> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/94 - Release Date: 9/9/2005
>>
>>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark McCurdy"
thought it was funny as hell but when I posted the link, didn't get a
single comment
I liked it , and it made me think , why dosen't sombody make a cd of songs
and stuff about ev's , one;s like on the link , One track could just be some
one talking about EV's and could be left on at rallys , another could sound
like a new report , "gas to hit $10 ,,,,,"
This could be a good way for sombody to raise some money for there ev
project. collect the tracks , pick the best , brun the cd's , I'd take one
.
except one that complained about people posting links without explanations
reposted with descriptions but still no comments :o/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich" <>>>>
I thought you would enjoy I Can't Afford My Gasoline.
Here's the link: http://toccionline.kizash.com/films/1001/178/index.php
Pretty funny!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI, the old Kia Pride is what we in the states knew as the Ford Festiva.
The new Pride will be sold here as the 2006 Kia Rio. They'll be missing a
bet if they don't make the hybrid edition available here.
Pictures here, if you can navigate the Flash:
http://www.kia.co.kr/filerootmain/Showroom/pride/pride.html
Absolutely no mention of the hybrid edition. Hmm.
> A Hyundai official said the company estimates the price for the
> Pride hybrid model to be more expensive than that of a gasoline
> model, running around 20 million won ($19,500).
In 2000, the cheapest Pride (the model based on the old Mazda 121 and fitted
with a 1.3l engine and single barrel carburetor) sold in Korea for less than
$5,000.
This is the Kia I'm really pulling for:
http://kiamotors.com/Common/html/innovation/conceptcar/kev4.html
It's a true hybrid (EV with 800cc range extender). Concept car only, alas.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Sep 2005 at 18:02, Mark McCurdy wrote:
> if I thought I'd fit in the civic I'd want to buy it :o/
> very large guy needing an EV here :o)
Try it, you might be surprised. While it may not be quite as comfortable as
a large vehicle, with a little effort you may find a Civic quite usable.
I remember seeing a 6' 5" fellow, nearly 300 lb., unfold himself from a
Honda 600 about 30 years ago. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Sep 2005 at 18:33, jerry dycus wrote:
> As buddy paired SCS200's cost about the same as the EV145/5SHP with
> more lead, I'd bet they would have as good or better life and
> diffinently more power, range at the same voltage.
Too bad I'm not a betting man. That might be a nice way to win some beer
money. ;-)
Why don't you try an experiment? You're building those Freedom EVs for
sale, so you'll be building a few prototypes to work the bugs out, right?
Fit one prototype with the SCS200s, and the another with 5SHPs. Try both,
comparing the performance and cycle life.
Or, if you won't be running prototypes, how about this: Build half of your
first year's worth of Freedom EVs with the SCS200s, and the other half with
5SHPs. Stay in touch with the owners, and see which ones give the more
satisfactory service.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Sep 2005 at 13:35, Meta Bus wrote:
> I own an EV with a top speed of around 40 MPH. I'd like to be able to
> travel all of my nation's roads. Should I expend my efforts in making my EV
> capable of going faster, or should I wait until everybody else is willing to
> slow down?
The real-world answer is that you're going to be waiting a long time for
everybody else to slow down.
I'd personally like to see the nation (indeed the world) slow down too, but
I don't think it's apt to happen in my lifetime.
> If this isn't the community that will lead a sane transition to a
> Green America, which community will? I am surprised by the
> vehemence with which drag racing is defended, as I am surprised
> and dismayed by the popularity of NASCAR and monster trucks
> and all sorts of conspicuous consumption of limited resources.
Sorry to disappoint you. I mean that. I sympathize with many of your
ideals. But this really ^isn't^ "the community that will lead a sane
transition to a Green America." I don't know what community will, or
whether it's even possible, but it's not us.
I speak now as assistant administrator of this mailing list, but I also have
the list consensus behind me in this.
Over its many years of existence, this list has evolved away from a "green"
perspective on EVs and moved toward a more generalized one. It's not a list
solely for environmentalists; the list participants have lots of different
reasons for their interest in EVs. It draws members from all sides. Some
^are^ environmentally focused and want to effect personal transportation
with the least impact possible. Some are just looking for the most
^economical^ transporation possible. Some like going fast on the street
without making much noise or vibration. Some live for the 100 mph club and
the clouds of electric tire smoke. Some like the challenge, the cool or
distinctive factor in an EV.
Members' environmental interest ranges from strong to almost nonexistent.
Some here are positive that global warming is real, others are equally sure
it's bogus and a scam. Some think that "peak oil" has already happened,
others dismiss that and say we have 50, 100, or more years of petroleum.
Some oppose nuclear power; others design control systems for nuclear power
plants. Some think the government should mandate EVs, others say that's
nonsense. Some are way to the right, others way to the left; most are
somewhere in the middle, some want nothing to do with politics.
With that diversity of opinion you can see how easily we could descend into
shouting matches. I suspect that there may even be those who would like to
keep us all fighting with one another for their own political or financial
gain. But, like that vanishing ideal called "polite society," we've agreed
to talk about the things we agree on - practical issues in building EVs of
all kinds - and not talk about the things we don't.
Imagine that.
Some people break the convention from time to time - they forget, or
something frustrates them and they let a comment slip. Most of the other
folks here tend to be tolerant of such infrequent breaks, particularly when
the person breaking it usually contributes lots of good material on EVs.
However, if a person repeatedly posts material here that generates
controversy and flames, I usually follow this sequence:
1. I ask the person privately to stop posting controversial comments.
2. I ask the list to ignore the person causing the problems.
3. I contact the person privately and ask him to voluntarily leave the list.
4. I contact the list owners and ask them to delete the person's
subscription.
Most problems don't go beyond step 2. I despise having to take things to
step 4 because I have to invest a lot of time and effort to document my
reasons for thinking someone should be removed (the list owners are now
relatively uninvolved and seldom even read the list).
I think that in all the years I've been involved here - about 10 - only 2 or
3 people have ever been asked to leave or deleted. They were all what most
would call "trolls."
And by the way, before you accuse me of censorship, may I remind you that
censorship is something practised by government. This list is not a
government function. It is a publication. All publications practise
editorial control. The editorial standards for this publication have been
decided by emerging member consensus over many years. Managing the list
content to those standards is the right, indeed the responsibility, of all
who participate.
Without wanting to suggest anything about any particular person, I will say
that anyone who wants to post material that's off topic or deliberately
controversial is welcome to do so ^somewhere else^. Yahoo Groups, for one,
makes it trivially easy to start one's own mailing list.
There is lots of good, practical EV information to be gleaned from this
list. Jim, and everyone else who's new here - please stick around, learn
lots, and build or improve an EV. We'll be with you all the way.
But so that we can discuss EVs without being drowned out by people yelling
at each other, I must ask you all :
1. Don't bring up partisan politics.
2. Don't use pejorative labels for ideas or people.
3. Discuss ideas, not people. If you disagree with someone's post, counter
with facts, not personal attacks.
4. Discuss environmental issues in the most neutral, non-judgemental way
possible. (See Peter Venderwal's recent comments on the emissions level of
portable gensets for a very good example of what I mean.)
Thanks.
David Roden
EV List Assistant Administrator
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Two messages with attachments have crossed the list today. Attachments and
html are supposed to be filtered out, to (1) prevent the possibility of
malware being distributed and (2) to prevent extraneous material such as
"business cards" from being transmitted.
I have a message in to the listserver support crew to find out what's gone
wrong. In the meantime, please DO NOT send any attachments or html to the
EV list.
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
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Christopher Robison wrote:
> I will admit to sharing this "power lust" that seems to be affecting the
> international automotive industry as much as it is affecting our culture
> and our roads -- I'm known to be heavy on the pedal, and I'll acknowledge
> that this is not necessarily a good thing. Its wasteful, and a potential
> risk to myself and others.
I to am a "Driver" at heart, and enjoy the rush of speed, so
I'm trying to find a way to do it with less collateral damage.
Here's my take on the whole "Power lust" and resultant problems...
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/gridable-hybrids/message/1918
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Malcolm Scott" wrote:
> You don' think we should fret about car makers using hybrid
> technology to build ever more environmentally damaging vehicles?
That's sorta why I like to push BEV's (PHEV secondly), is that
with an electric fueled car you can drive as wastefull (fast)
and ineffecient (heavy/square) as you like and (eventually)
all of the electricity comes from clean and renew/systain-able
sources so it will be of little effect, they will just pay more
to use more energy, but the fuel and it's use is benign.
Compaired with today, the fuel is running out, there is no
clean replacement (despite bio-attempts to say otherwise),
the "production"-transport-refining-distribution are inharently
dirty and require much effort to keep clean, and finally the
very use of the fuel creates a directly proportional ammount of
CO2 and other exotic (unless you are diligent, Prius) pollutants.
Electricity on the other hand can very easily come from clean,
systain/renew-able, and regional resources. It's transmitted
over a wire, and it's consumption is clean. Even the batteries
are sealed self contained devices and highly recycleable.
L8r
Ryan
ps. Now making the same old 100% gas fueled Hybrids isn't really
doing much when they could be making 100%<-to->0% gas fueled ones.
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Neon John wrote:
> given a megabuck, oh heck, let's make it unlimited funds, tell me in
> general terms how you'd achieve 300 mph in the quarter with an EV.
> Just describing an electrical energy storage and delivery mechanism
> that can store enough energy and deliver it fast enough to go 300 mph
> in the quarter is enough. No need to complicate things with motors
> and drivetrains and tires and all that. Just suggest for me what
> might be able to store the energy-equivalent of say, 5 gallons of
> nitromethane in a package light enough to have a chance of going fast.
> Remember that cost is no object.
Well, someone else will have to tell me if this would work or not...
How about the highest energy/power dense batteries I'm aware of
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_03/pr2901.htm
Perhaps there are better ones, probably need to use Caps.
And here are it's Specs: 150-250Wh/L, 10kW/L
19.1g, 30A, 0.6Ah, = 250Wh/L (113Wh/kg), 10kW/L (4.5kW/kg)
4500 Watts/kg = 4500 J = 0.0045 MJ/kg
Damn, that's not much compaired to Nitro, huh...
But what about all that effeciency stuff?
Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromethane
5000 BTU/lb (11,023 BTU/kg) or 5.4 MJ/lb (12 MJ/kg)
So, 90% of the Nitro goes right through: 1.2 MJ
Another 50% lost at the clutch: 0.6 MJ
What if more is lost at the engine?
92% = 0.98/2 = 0.490 MJ to the track?
94% = 0.72/2 = 0.360 MJ
96% = 0.48/2 = 0.240 MJ
98% = 0.24/2 = 0.120 MJ
looking over the specs those Lithiums might be closer to 5.6kW/kg
Still not going to make up much of the difference.0.0056 MJ/kg
Anyway, I guess what we're looking for, for starters is a battery
with arround what? 1000 kW/kg (Gulp) How about Super-Caps!
L8r
Ryan
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Wasn't that Rosie Greer, on an episode of "CHiPs"? He wound up beating the
car to death with his bare hands!
David C. Wilker Jr.
(6'8", 340 Lbs myself)
United States Air Force, Retired
I remember seeing a 6' 5" fellow, nearly 300 lb., unfold himself from a
Honda 600 about 30 years ago. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug,
Doug Hartley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Jerry and all,
Last night I emailed the program's producer with background information on
myself (stuff I have built or modified like the '57 aluminum body camper
truck, electric mororcycle conversion, etc.) and activities and interests
(like participating in the EVDL, Solar Fest in Vermont, Tour de Sol,
Vehicule Vert group, etc.)
The producer called me back today and said that after reviewing the email,
they would like to focus on 2 areas:
1) how I like driving an electric car, how it feels, my experiences etc. (I
think this was the original planned subject material)
and out of all the info I provided.......
2) The EV Production Group and how we (Jerry) are designing, tooling and
then building an EV for sale because the automakers will not!
I see from the Yahoo page that we have 49 members.
In case they ask, Jerry, how many people have contributed more than dues,
as loans for the Freedom EV project?
About 20 with about 20 just at $25 and another 10 that is hard to
delete as it's hard to know who they are and whether they paid or not from
their URLs as they don't have names with them.
Are there any other facts and updates you think should be mentioned so
listeners better understand the progress, goals, timetable etc., and get a
feel for the tiny, efficient, scale of this development, compared to
big-auto? For example, an updated budget/estimate for the project cost, ETA
of first EVs in customer's hands, any info on the number of units pre-sold
and others ready to buy, the factory orders, list of countries of people
participating in the group, etc. If you think it best, some answers and
comments emailed directly to me might be appropriate for some of this info.
I, we are not ready to handle the deluge of people who might ask about
it as I already have way to much work to do. Nor do I think you will be able to
handle the E mails which could easily be in the thousands.
Best would be to put up a FAQ on our EVProduction Wiki but I don't
know how and haven't even been able to get the new pics on it.
Best is just give an overview of it but say we are a very small org that
can't handle it and still do the work on our small buget.
Though anyone that would like to donate to it would be welcomed and
speed it up and make it much better than we can on our $10k budget. So for
donations you could put my mail address there.
Jerry Dycus 10011 Echo Mtn Dr. Riverview, Fla, 33569
The first beta cars should be coming out for EV'ers only in November but
they are mostly spoken for so for the public it won't be ready till March,
April.
I am putting it into production for about $10k with my and others
donated labor for the beta version which will be only a 20 EV run then do a
better version with what we have learned from them in March which would then be
sold to the public..
The goals are getting resonable priced, reliable EV's in the publics
hands as Detroit won't and shoving it down their throats that it can easily be
done even by talented amatures with present or even old tech, so why can't
Detroit? There is little in it that isn't 20 yrs old tech for reliability.
After the processes are worked out, we plan on putting factories all
across both the US and Canada for local production and service as it is best
suited for many small factories instead of a large one. Hopefully as thiese
factories get experience they will brannch out into a bunch of different
directions give many more EV choices in our energy short furure and in Canada,
leave energy for export to bring more money into Canada. and the EV's can
mostly be fueled by clean hydro power.
Give me a call this afternoon at 813-671-3059 but E mail me first with
the time so I can be at the phone. This morning I'm working on the molds while
it's cool which are looking great. Have to get by the glass guy this
afternoon to arrange the movement of the body mold back to him.
Thanks,
Jerry
This show will be recorded Saturday morning and the interview will air
sometime between 7:00 to 9:00 A.M. Sunday. I may get a call with a more
precise time slot on Saturday night, after they have put the program
together.
Thanks!
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: EV pulbicity Re: Montreal Gazette article today, Sept. 6
> Hi Doug and All,
>
>
> Doug Hartley wrote:
>
> Hi Jerry, Noel, and all,
>
> Thanks for your encouragement!
>
> I was called today to come into the CBC studio Saturday morning to be
> interviewed for CBC Radio One, All in the Weekend program. It should be
> another opportunity to spread the word some more.
>
>
> Cool, take some more website URLs like Plasmaboy's, ect so they
> can put them up on their website and talk about John's and Berbe's?
> Current Eliminator dragster to help dispell the notions EV must be slow..
> That with your dispelling they are short range takes away their excuses
> against EV's.
>
> Talk about small engined battery dominated hybrids would be good
> too.
>
> Is it broadcast on the web?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Doug
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerry dycus"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 3:40 PM
> Subject: EV pulbicity Re: Montreal Gazette article today, Sept. 6
>
>
>> Hi Doug and All,
>> Way to go Doug !!
>> There is starting to be a lot of EV related articles
>> especially on the plug in Prius project that has did full page spreads
>> and
>> smaller articles and many mentions other the last month, Probably 30
>> times
>> I noticed on TV or the paper.
>> The Local TV talk show Kathy Fountain want me to be a
>> show as soon as I have a Freedom EV running.
>> So all you out there call in your local talk shows,
>> write your local papers and tell them about the joys of EV's. .Mention
>> the jobs, national, economic security aspects of it too as that gets the
>> attention of many who wouldn't consider them before.
>> Now is the time to counter act the misinformation the
>> auto companies have been spreading.
>> Thanks,
>> Jerry Dycus
>>
>
>
>
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