EV Digest 4693
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
by "Ray Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: What charger to use?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
by "Ray Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
by "Ray Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Some EV help
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: electric motorcycle performance
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: What charger to use?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Real EV data.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Ampabout West
by ROBERT RICE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.paeco.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela, I am not sure what charger you use on your EV today, but you must
realize: how can a charger "sense" what make, model and chemistry of battery
is being used? How to sense the acceptance voltage? The current limit?
Every EV is different and will have different battery types and voltages and
charge currents. **All** chargers must be set-up for the EV being used -
this includes Rich's PFC, Zivan's, Brusa's etc. On your EV did you not have
to set up the charge parameters? Or did you get the factory to set it up?
Once Rich's PFC has been set-up, it only needs to be turned on - that is it.
So if you drink a dozen beer, you can just come out and throw on the switch
- no fiddling required (BTW Beer does not mix with any kind of car). Or
your wife or kid can do it - just like turning on the light switch. This is
the same as Zivan and Brusa.
Keep in mind that Zivan chargers need to be **factory** set up for your
battery pack. If you ever change your pack, you need to either tinker with
the guts or send it back to be reset. With the PFC, you turn a knob and or
a trimmer pot - no factory required. Brusa chargers can be set-up with
software from your computer.
Not to say that the first gen of the PFC is perfect, and Rich is listening
to his current customers who have experience with his chargers. I know he
has an isolation version of the charger and Rich and Joe have been looking
into temp compensation and (maybe) charger turn off at a low current level.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michaela Merz
Sent: September 10, 2005 7:01 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
Rich:
I don't want to in any way question the capabilities of your charger. I am
sure it is a great system. But I think I would like to see a charger that
doesn't need tuning, maybe senses the necessary data itself. That maybe has
two voltage presets and can be used even in the dark (and after a few
beers). Your product seems to be perfect for the ev tinkerer and I think I
would be able to 'handle' it, but I don't want to train my spouse or my kid
on how to charge the car.
And while it most certainly makes sense to not use transformers, I wouldn't
mind some losses in order to have an insulated system. And why do I need a
timer to shut the charger off? Isn't there a way to sense the cutoff voltage
and turn off by itself (maybe after some time to allow for equalization)?
mm.
> HunnH?
>
> Just plug it in and tune the voltage. That simple.
> The complete saftey check out is only needed when you think you hurt it.
>
> It's a non isolated charger... no transformer. Less losses and a MUCH
> wider voltage range.
>
> The timer is so it shuts off.
>
> The Zivan is a single voltage product. Get one for each voltage you need.
> PFC chargers can be used on all voltage EVs from 12 volts to 450. So
> yes you have to adjust them for each appliaction.
>
> ONE if you can't deal with a voltage meter on your EV and read the
> voltage as you are tuning the charger...maybe you need to stick to
> plug and play chargers.
>
> Two....a jewlers screw driver and a DVM and about 30 seconds of
> time... is cheap compared to 2 complete chargers.
>
> And I am going to have Joe NUKE The instructions that take you all
> through the "Precharge" nightmare, it's totally over kill safety.
>
> You will find that Zivan Plug and play chargers work just that way.
> Life is good until the battery string dies early and you have no clue
> why.
> All packs need some adjustments for age and weather changes. Assuming
> all the varibles are engineered out is rather foolish.
>
> Also the reason you are looking for a new charger is one primary
> reason I am in business. Zivans fail often and have a rather limited
> feature set.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:49 PM
> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>
>
>>
>> Hello Rich and others:
>>
>> Thanks for all the information. I still have some questions in regard
>> to your charger and my old Zivan:
>>
>> I read your installation instructions and quite frankly, they sound a
>> little complicated. All that tuning and checking .. I understand that
>> this is not a bug but a feature. But - I would have to get an
>> amp-meter, solder some 110 V lights, rewire the DC port so that is
>> has a chassis ground.
>> And
>> - why is it not insulated? Why do I need a timer?
>>
>> My Zivan charger worked like that: Plug in and forget. Once the
>> batteries are charged, it turns off. Nothing to tweak, nothing to
>> tune.
>>
>> After tuning for car#1 and car#2, how would I be able to 'mark' the
>> position of the pots so that I wouldn't have to go through all the
>> tuning again for car #1. Count the revolutions of the pot? Kind of 2
>> revolutions to the left and 1/2 revolution to the right?
>>
>> Confused ...
>>
>> mm.
>>
>>
>>
>> > I can have a charger in your hands in 5 days, or less.
>> > Get me the funds And I will turn a PFC30 in about 12 hours.
>> >
>> > Getting the funds here takes longer than making one.
>> > I can do a 20 or 20B or 30 in less than a day, The 50s are waiting
>> > for
> new
>> > sheet metal, That gets here Monday.
>> >
>> > All my PFC series chargers can run off of 110 to 240 AC. simple
>> > Mods
>> let
>> > them run off of DC also.
>> >
>> > A PFC50B(your appliaction is less than 150 volts ..so I HIGHLY
>> recomend
>> > the
>> > Buck option).
>> > This charger can deliver 75 amps of charge current at these voltage
>> > levels.
>> >
>> > Not quite fire and forget. Tune it once, do it right then Forget it.
> check
>> > your results about every 4 months.
>> > The big feature is that you CAN adjust my chargers....From 12 to
>> > 450
> volts
>> > output. The power levels adjust from Zero to full advertised line
> current.
>> >
>> > Rich Rudman
>> > Manzanita Micro
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:25 PM
>> > Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Hey John and others:
>> >>
>> >> > At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
>> >> >>Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V
>> >> >>system,
> the
>> >> >>other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able
>> >> >>to provide both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide
>> >> >>fully
>> automatic
>> >> >>charging ('fire and forget').
>> >> >>
>> >> >>What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.manzanitamicro.com
>> >>
>> >> Thank you. From what I understand, the PFC-50 would be able to be
>> >> run off a 110 V 'normal' outlet with its throttle (kind of a worst
>> >> case
>> >> scenario) adjusted ?
>> >>
>> >> Anybody here able (willing?) to sell me a charger asap (my Zivan
>> >> just died I need my car back :)
>> >>
>> >> mm.
>> >>
>> >
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ray, you did not read my email note. I do not want to **buy** a flywheel, I
want to **make** an aluminium flywheel.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ray Brooks
Sent: September 10, 2005 7:32 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
http://www.paeco.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mostly likely cheaper to buy depending on the value of your time.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 10:39 PM
Subject: RE: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
> Ray, you did not read my email note. I do not want to **buy** a flywheel,
I
> want to **make** an aluminium flywheel.
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ray Brooks
> Sent: September 10, 2005 7:32 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
>
> http://www.paeco.com/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are assuming that I am looking for "cheap" way to do it. Not correct.
I want to **make** a flywheel. I have a machine shop at my disposal and I
want to use it. If you have information about this I would appreciate the
help.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ray Brooks
Sent: September 10, 2005 7:53 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
Mostly likely cheaper to buy depending on the value of your time.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 10:39 PM
Subject: RE: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
> Ray, you did not read my email note. I do not want to **buy** a flywheel,
I
> want to **make** an aluminium flywheel.
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ray Brooks
> Sent: September 10, 2005 7:32 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
>
> http://www.paeco.com/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> Has anyone made an aluminium flywheel for their car? I figure I can lathe &
> mill 6061 T6 or 2024 T3 to the appropriate shape and then install a surface
> ring of 1060 high strength carbon steel for a clutch face.
Build it and send it in and get it certified for safety purposes.
That's the only way I'd feel safe using it. It's nice knowing it's
not going to explode at a certain rpm.
http://www.sfifoundation.com/
You'll also need to get it balanced after you make it.
I like the design of this one. There are some pics on the right in
the flash animation:
http://www.turboclutch.com/flywheel.html
Another:
http://www.clutchmasters.com/Graphics/Flywheel_page.jpg
Another with a little bit of info:
http://www.fidanza.com/productdetails.aspx?id=aluminum_flywheels
Better pics and might be the same info as above:
http://www.fidanza.com/Files/05Catalog.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To those who say people are uninterested, hear this:
Yesterday in the Microprocessors lab at my University, I
showed a group of students a video of Wayland's electric
Datsun kicking a red Corvette's ass. There were the usual
few who denied the car could be electric, but there were
others who were outright impressed that a little Datsun
powered by batteries, a box of silicon, and two derivations
of a forklift motor could outright RAPE a Corvette. They
aren't racing fanatics, but they do understand what a 12.6 @
104 mph means. This is the territory of $200,000 exotics
like Lamborghini Murceilagos or Ferrari 575 Maranellos. To
see an electric car with ~$25k in parts(perhaps
significantly less) achieve this is very telling about the
progress this technology has made. To see this on the track
must obviously be more than a casual bemusement, especially
judging from the crowds I hear about that always form around
Wayland's car, and the sheer interest people have in the car
thousands of miles away in a University lab.
Again, these are not hardcore racing fanatics, by no means,
who saw this video. Simply college students sharing my major
that were concerned about high gas prices. After seeing what
this car did, a few are interested in building one now, even
if they may not know where to start.
I talked to a few of my professors, Dr. Roobik Gharabagi,
Dr. Habib Rhamin, and others, and they are extremely
interested in how far electric car technology has
progressed. Seeing microprocessor controllers, series wound
DC motors, and AGM batteries push a 2,000 pound car down the
track faster than a Corvette has them asking about the
numbers: how much power is the controller delivering, how
was a controller that powerful built in such a compact
package for so cheap, how do those batteries take such
repeated abuse and continue to last, how does such a small
motor withstand such unbelievable loads for the duration of
time requested, ect. These are people that work with big
numbers in big areas, like transformers, power plants, ect.
They aren't used to seeing 2,000 amps and 170+ volts in
motors that weigh about 120 pounds each.
Some here may be correct that EVs aren't currently pulling
300 mph in the 1/4 in 4 seconds, or that street EVs aren't
pulling 9 second 1/4 miles at 150 mph. So what? Whether it
is possible or not has little bearing on the interest in the
sport as a whole.
What seems to draw people's interest? Lots of things.
Electric drag racing is an area where new advances are
literally being made each week. The engineers here are very
interested just in how this technology has progressed to the
point it is today, and the fact that even 20 years ago no
one would have ever dreamed of this occuring. They want to
know what parts the car has, how they work, just how many
amps, how many runs the car can make before the batteries
are depleted, whether the motors can handle the abuse
repeatedly with little or no wear, how much they cost, the
processes involved in building the car, ect.
Then there's that portion who like the concept of
challenging current stereotypes or defying current cultural
norms. To see a street legal electric car come so far is an
absolute shock to them. Many accounts on this list have been
thrown about in which individuals who have dumped $20k or
more under the hoods of their gas guzzlers(Or have spent
even more buying a high performance car from the showroom
floor instead of building it) have been embarassed to have
been beaten in a race by an EV that cost about the same as
or even less to build. EVs fit the mold of the 'sleeper'.
People think electric motors are only good for powering golf
carts, and then get spanked when they decide to show off
what their gasser can do that the EV supposedly can't. For
those who's car makes up for certain inadequacies, having
your $80k Dodge Viper get beat by a ~$25k electric Datsun
1200 has got to be even worse than being beaten in a race by
a Yugo. The shock value and the prospect of humiliating
people thus draws in another type who has some interest in
this sport.
Some are interested in the mere fact that it is possible to
build a street EV that can kill Vipers and Corvettes,
repeatedly, for less money than it takes to buy one of those
cars. Sure, you can take a Datsun Z car and shove a V8 into
it for about $10k(or less if careful), but it is basically
another Z car with a V8 shoved in it, a fairly common
modification, especially if you're looking for a bargain.
Nothing wrong with it, but it's still going to cost a lot to
keep fueled and may not even be practical for a daily driver
in some circumstances. To have a Civic do the same, one
might be throwing $20k or more under the hood of their car
and said car might need constant attention if it is also a
daily driver. Many a racer have had their engine go out on
them after a few thousand miles because the air/fuel mixture
was not right or the engne simply could not handle what was
thrown at it or perhaps the turbo charger was running too
lean. You can give someone $10k to build an EV, and if they
choose the right chassis and parts, not only could they get
around the high gas prices with a cheap to operate
vehicle(in the case they care for their batteries and use
regs), but it will also still be able to hold its own
against those $35k+ 'sports cars' that prowl the streets
today. Put $20k into an EV, and now you've got a Corvette
killer competitive in price to build with those riced out
cars, perhaps even cheaper to build, with a comparably lower
operating cost. This may draw a few people in, although one
could argue the work and labor involved in building the EV
is worth quite a chunk of cash.
Some are interested just because they are concerned about
certain political issues pertaining to automobile use and
see the electric vehicle as a step in the right direction.
To see an electric achieve the same performance as a high
performance ICE-powered car gives them hope for both the
present and the future.
Whatever the case may be, this sport has attained so much
interest that its participants can't keep up with all the
attention sometimes garnered upon them by the media, curious
onlookers, others who want to build their own, ect. High
School kids are even getting involved and setting their own
records, and sufficient interest exists that people are
granting them thousands of dollars worth of sponsorship.
Thyere is plenty of interest on the part of various small
businesses and even large battery makers that want to
showcase their product because they know the car will be
observed by the virtue of its rarity and shock value.
Back when drag racing was in its infancy, with the likes of
the Green Monster and other curiousities from the 40s and
50s, there was plenty of interest, but little in the way of
participation. Electric drag racing today is in this state.
Few participants, many onlookers all with questions and
comments.
But no interest in electric drag racing? That's a bunch of
horseshit!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Ryan, I completely missed the Fidanza catalogue. It shows very nice
pics, I can almost take the callipers to it! It also nicely shows the
facing material and fasteners.
I wonder about the different temperature expansion coefficients of the 1050
Steel and Al. It may not be an issue, however, I think I can I can model
this with the FEA software I have.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: September 10, 2005 8:06 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
Don Cameron wrote:
> Has anyone made an aluminium flywheel for their car? I figure I can
> lathe & mill 6061 T6 or 2024 T3 to the appropriate shape and then
> install a surface ring of 1060 high strength carbon steel for a clutch
face.
Build it and send it in and get it certified for safety purposes.
That's the only way I'd feel safe using it. It's nice knowing it's not
going to explode at a certain rpm.
http://www.sfifoundation.com/
You'll also need to get it balanced after you make it.
I like the design of this one. There are some pics on the right in the
flash animation:
http://www.turboclutch.com/flywheel.html
Another:
http://www.clutchmasters.com/Graphics/Flywheel_page.jpg
Another with a little bit of info:
http://www.fidanza.com/productdetails.aspx?id=aluminum_flywheels
Better pics and might be the same info as above:
http://www.fidanza.com/Files/05Catalog.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera doesn't seem to be posting much these days, given his recent
transition to college life; hope I'm not stepping too far out of bounds
for posting in his place. For his Jeep Cherokee conversion, Nick had a
custom flywheel made as you describe -- a disk of aluminum with a steel
ring for the face. I don't know what specific alloys were used.
The result was nothing short of horrendous in my (somewhat inexperienced)
opinion. The flywheel is truly massive, and extremely heavy -- far too
much material for its job I think. For rigidity the person who made it
left the aluminum very thick (guessing from memory 3/4"), and the steel
face was probably a bit thicker than it needed to be as well (approx
3/16"). I imagine the proper way to do this might be with cutouts to
lighten the flywheel, but for that you'd need high accuracy (probably
computer-driven machine tools) and the ability to dynamically balance the
resulting flywheel. I think Nick's Cherokee would use a lot less power
during acceleration if his flywheel were lighter.
Probably a better bet to use your stock flywheel, removing the ring gear
and milling off any excess material you don't need, or buying a
performance aftermarket flywheel and doing the same.
--chris
Don Cameron said:
> Has anyone made an aluminium flywheel for their car? I figure I can lathe
> &
> mill 6061 T6 or 2024 T3 to the appropriate shape and then install a
> surface
> ring of 1060 high strength carbon steel for a clutch face. The face would
> be held on with high shear load aircraft bolts. Not sure what fastener
> adhesive I would use on the bolts.
>
>
> Thoughts? Comments? (Jerry have you done this before?)
>
>
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about this
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/aspx/paging.yes/dept_id.38/display_id.899/qx/Product.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
> You are assuming that I am looking for "cheap" way to do it. Not correct.
> I want to **make** a flywheel. I have a machine shop at my disposal and I
> want to use it. If you have information about this I would appreciate the
> help.
>
> Don
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ray Brooks
> Sent: September 10, 2005 7:53 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
>
> Mostly likely cheaper to buy depending on the value of your time.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 10:39 PM
> Subject: RE: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
>
>
> > Ray, you did not read my email note. I do not want to **buy** a
flywheel,
> I
> > want to **make** an aluminium flywheel.
> >
> >
> > Victoria, BC, Canada
> >
> > See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> > www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Ray Brooks
> > Sent: September 10, 2005 7:32 PM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
> >
> > http://www.paeco.com/
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/31/05, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't understand. Why isn't it a "bus"? It's a system for connecting
> up to 32 nodes together so they can exchange data over the same set of
32 nodes is a bit of a limitation. You say on that web page
(http://www.aracnet.com/~rmerwin/evilbus/index.html) that it can scale
to more, but what is the limitation? What goes wrong when you add too
many nodes?
> wires. I designed the transceiver itself, terminators (two 150 ohm
> resistors to +12v and ground), picked a standard connector (RCA phono),
> and cable (audio shielded cable).
For hobbyists maybe the RCA connector makes sense because it's easy to
get, but wouldn't twisted pair be better in general?
One thing I've never quite understood is why the old coax standard
fell out of use for ethernet. Cable TV networks have figured out how
to get massive amounts of data through coax but computer network
standards people seem to think that twisted pair has inherently more
bandwidth.
Anyway IMO twisted pair is easier to work with. Is there any reason
evil bus can't be used with it?
It also strikes me as really nonstandard that the shield isn't a true
ground - it's connected to ground via a resistor. But it can very
easily get inadvertently connected to a real chassis ground if
something metal happens to touch one of the female connectors or a
metal-shelled male one.
Victor wrote:
> > I could connect your optoisolating transceivers to my CAN nodes
> > and it would be optoisolated CAN network (bus), not EVil bus.
Well what would be wrong with an optoisolated version of CAN? Could
there be an extension to the CAN standard which permits mixing
isolated and non-isolated nodes within the same network? Because it
seems to me that opto-isolation is overkill for most automotive uses.
> CAN is a software and data format standard; not a hardware bus standard.
Well I thought there was a hardware component of the standard, but
anyway there is typical hardware and typical signal voltages in use in
actual implementations. On the one hand you say that CAN is a
cheapened version of RS-485 (because it's non-differential) and I've
also heard that the parts count is too high and there's no cheap way
to build a CAN node. What makes it so expensive if it's so simple?
> That's a complicated question; there's no easy answer. The bit rate of
> EVILbus, with its current cheap optos and simple termination, is 9600
> bits/sec. We're sending 10-bit words (1 start, 8 data, 1 stop) so each
> word is 80% data. Packet overhead costs another 10%, so the effective
> data rate is around 6700 bits/sec.
>
> CANbus is normally 500 kbits/sec. Packets only carry 6 bytes of data,
> but have 21 bits of ID, 16 bit CRCs, another dozen or so control bits,
> and required idle times; thus the effective data rate is around 200
> kbits/sec. Thus CAN is about 30 times faster, not 100.
>
> We already know how to make EVILbus much faster if necessary; high-speed
> optocouplers, active terminator, etc. It just isn't necessary so far.
It would be ideal if high speed and low speed devices could co-exist
on the same bus. If we build EVs today with the existing version, and
someday want to upgrade to some device that requires faster
communication, what's going to happen?
> I'd like to establish a 'standard' software protocol for EVILbus, but
> getting programmers to agree is like herding cats. Everyone does their
> own thing, and doesn't care if it's compatible with anyone else's.
So far at least they've been able to agree on using XML some of the
time and in some scenarios, but it's so inefficient that I probably
wouldn't recommend doing that on a 9600 baud bus. One pet idea of
mine is to come up with a binary on-the-wire standard for exchanging
Scheme data types. You can implement very XML-like structures
(self-describing, tree structured) using S-expressions, but you will
be using data types that can be loaded as-is into variables on the
receive end, rather than having to convert everything to ASCII and
back again. (E.g. an int is sent in network byte order, not as a
decimal ascii number.) And the standard must encompass a way of
syncing up a map of symbols between an arbitrary number of nodes, so
that eventually they are all using the same set of 32-bit numbers to
represent symbols (what would be tag names in XML) rather than having
to send even those in ASCII form. So it will lose the
human-readability of XML but if you have an open standard with an open
implementation, it will be trivial to translate all this data into
human-readable form on demand. And you can still send arbitrary data
structures without having to pre-define them in advance. It's in the
same spirit as the binary XML standards like WBXML et al., but the
trouble with those standards is there's already too many of them, and
it's still only a data exchange language, not a programming language.
Choosing CAN for EV stuff has the advantage of already having wide
adoption in automotive implementations, and already enforcing the
protocol. If you agree to use it, you can be compatible with a lot of
off-the-shelf stuff, right? Or isn't there any off-the-shelf stuff?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
If you are anywhere near Phx, I have given some thought about selling my red
`76 CitiCar for around 1K. It has new tires and white spoke wheels but needs
batts and the usual wiring cleanup. I would go thru the brakes as a matter
of course. Also I made a "convertable" out of it, IE I chopped off the roof
and was planning to have a bikini top similar to a jeep done for it that was
supported by the rollbar. You could probably have something nice and
roadworthy for around 2K, maybe less. David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Taylor Jr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 8:18 AM
Subject: Some EV help
I want badly to make some kind of electric car. my commute is so small it
just makes sense to me to try. (7 miles each way all under 45mph)
I was thinking about a citicar but most dont work and are expensive if
they remotely work :-( plus they look cool.
I cant afford to convert a normal car. If I had 10 thousand dollars I
would not be worried about it.
so I want to custom build something. I'm figuring build something "around"
a motorcycle chassis. full enclosed with side rigger wheels to make it
stable and all weather.
so now I have some questions of which I can not answer and can not even
find the "resources" to allow me to try and answer. someone pointed me to
this list :-)
one idea was to use D Nimh cells. I can get them for $5 a pop and they are
10amps each !! (10,000mah) maybe cheaper in bulk.
I only need a 30mile range (figure double what I need in reality to have a
buffer)
I can probably figure out most of it but 2 things. what kind of
motor/controller do I need and how in the heck do I "charge" such a
thing.?
not sure how much the vehicle will weigh I figure same as it did as a
motorcycle since I will be dropping the engine but then adding batteries
and all weather shell and extensions etc.. plus my 350 pounds. so I figure
500-550 pounds ?? lets figure 700 pounds top end all up road weight unless
I need more batteries and they end up weighing more.
if I ever get enough money converting my VW Thing to EV would be neat but
only if I could get at least a 200 mile range from it so thats not likely
to be for a while and not untill I am quite a bit better off financially
:-)
Suggestions ?
Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what type of batteries/motor/controller/etc would be the "dream"
setup?
The Kokam Li-Po for your pack or try to get a hold of Compact Power's
cells (out of colorado). Compact Power also has excellent BMS.
A Zilla controller will give you high power control lots of race
parameters to tune and series parallel switching stock, not to mention a
full data set to analyze.
As for motor, I think that a dual ETEK or Lemco setup would give the
best power to weight ratio. Trying to go 100mph on one ETEK is
definitely pushing it. Two is much better and a drag bike named ReVolt
with two ETEKs and a Zilla controller holds a couple of world records
using that setup at 144V (13.634 sec 1/4 mile at 93.81mph) and at 192V
(12.958 sec 1/4 mile at 98.06mph). The ETEK and Lemco motors provide an
outstanding power to weight ratio.
If you want to push around 100mph of course aero is critical as well.
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
The stress effect of hi-load clutch engagements at elevated temperatures
and/or RPM's is difficult to calculate or predict.
Please be careful with this one!
RR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 8:17 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
Thanks Ryan, I completely missed the Fidanza catalogue. It shows very nice
pics, I can almost take the callipers to it! It also nicely shows the
facing material and fasteners.
I wonder about the different temperature expansion coefficients of the 1050
Steel and Al. It may not be an issue, however, I think I can I can model
this with the FEA software I have.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don, Rich and all others:
please excude my being clueless. But my first Ev had an uninsulated
onboard charger and I got shocked a few times before I finally decided to
disconnect it.
>From my experience, it is not that easy (especially with floodies) to
avoid any and all unwanted voltage crossovers. I am just concerned that a
non-insulated charger will be not as safe as an insulated version.
mm.
>
> Michaela, I am not sure what charger you use on your EV today, but you
> must
> realize: how can a charger "sense" what make, model and chemistry of
> battery
> is being used? How to sense the acceptance voltage? The current limit?
>
> Every EV is different and will have different battery types and voltages
> and
> charge currents. **All** chargers must be set-up for the EV being used -
> this includes Rich's PFC, Zivan's, Brusa's etc. On your EV did you not
> have
> to set up the charge parameters? Or did you get the factory to set it up?
>
> Once Rich's PFC has been set-up, it only needs to be turned on - that is
> it.
> So if you drink a dozen beer, you can just come out and throw on the
> switch
> - no fiddling required (BTW Beer does not mix with any kind of car). Or
> your wife or kid can do it - just like turning on the light switch. This
> is
> the same as Zivan and Brusa.
>
> Keep in mind that Zivan chargers need to be **factory** set up for your
> battery pack. If you ever change your pack, you need to either tinker
> with
> the guts or send it back to be reset. With the PFC, you turn a knob and
> or
> a trimmer pot - no factory required. Brusa chargers can be set-up with
> software from your computer.
>
> Not to say that the first gen of the PFC is perfect, and Rich is listening
> to his current customers who have experience with his chargers. I know he
> has an isolation version of the charger and Rich and Joe have been looking
> into temp compensation and (maybe) charger turn off at a low current
> level.
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Michaela Merz
> Sent: September 10, 2005 7:01 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>
>
>
> Rich:
>
> I don't want to in any way question the capabilities of your charger. I am
> sure it is a great system. But I think I would like to see a charger that
> doesn't need tuning, maybe senses the necessary data itself. That maybe
> has
> two voltage presets and can be used even in the dark (and after a few
> beers). Your product seems to be perfect for the ev tinkerer and I think I
> would be able to 'handle' it, but I don't want to train my spouse or my
> kid
> on how to charge the car.
>
> And while it most certainly makes sense to not use transformers, I
> wouldn't
> mind some losses in order to have an insulated system. And why do I need a
> timer to shut the charger off? Isn't there a way to sense the cutoff
> voltage
> and turn off by itself (maybe after some time to allow for equalization)?
>
> mm.
>
>
>> HunnH?
>>
>> Just plug it in and tune the voltage. That simple.
>> The complete saftey check out is only needed when you think you hurt it.
>>
>> It's a non isolated charger... no transformer. Less losses and a MUCH
>> wider voltage range.
>>
>> The timer is so it shuts off.
>>
>> The Zivan is a single voltage product. Get one for each voltage you
>> need.
>> PFC chargers can be used on all voltage EVs from 12 volts to 450. So
>> yes you have to adjust them for each appliaction.
>>
>> ONE if you can't deal with a voltage meter on your EV and read the
>> voltage as you are tuning the charger...maybe you need to stick to
>> plug and play chargers.
>>
>> Two....a jewlers screw driver and a DVM and about 30 seconds of
>> time... is cheap compared to 2 complete chargers.
>>
>> And I am going to have Joe NUKE The instructions that take you all
>> through the "Precharge" nightmare, it's totally over kill safety.
>>
>> You will find that Zivan Plug and play chargers work just that way.
>> Life is good until the battery string dies early and you have no clue
>> why.
>> All packs need some adjustments for age and weather changes. Assuming
>> all the varibles are engineered out is rather foolish.
>>
>> Also the reason you are looking for a new charger is one primary
>> reason I am in business. Zivans fail often and have a rather limited
>> feature set.
>>
>> Rich Rudman
>> Manzanita Micro
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Hello Rich and others:
>>>
>>> Thanks for all the information. I still have some questions in regard
>>> to your charger and my old Zivan:
>>>
>>> I read your installation instructions and quite frankly, they sound a
>>> little complicated. All that tuning and checking .. I understand that
>>> this is not a bug but a feature. But - I would have to get an
>>> amp-meter, solder some 110 V lights, rewire the DC port so that is
>>> has a chassis ground.
>>> And
>>> - why is it not insulated? Why do I need a timer?
>>>
>>> My Zivan charger worked like that: Plug in and forget. Once the
>>> batteries are charged, it turns off. Nothing to tweak, nothing to
>>> tune.
>>>
>>> After tuning for car#1 and car#2, how would I be able to 'mark' the
>>> position of the pots so that I wouldn't have to go through all the
>>> tuning again for car #1. Count the revolutions of the pot? Kind of 2
>>> revolutions to the left and 1/2 revolution to the right?
>>>
>>> Confused ...
>>>
>>> mm.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > I can have a charger in your hands in 5 days, or less.
>>> > Get me the funds And I will turn a PFC30 in about 12 hours.
>>> >
>>> > Getting the funds here takes longer than making one.
>>> > I can do a 20 or 20B or 30 in less than a day, The 50s are waiting
>>> > for
>> new
>>> > sheet metal, That gets here Monday.
>>> >
>>> > All my PFC series chargers can run off of 110 to 240 AC. simple
>>> > Mods
>>> let
>>> > them run off of DC also.
>>> >
>>> > A PFC50B(your appliaction is less than 150 volts ..so I HIGHLY
>>> recomend
>>> > the
>>> > Buck option).
>>> > This charger can deliver 75 amps of charge current at these voltage
>>> > levels.
>>> >
>>> > Not quite fire and forget. Tune it once, do it right then Forget it.
>> check
>>> > your results about every 4 months.
>>> > The big feature is that you CAN adjust my chargers....From 12 to
>>> > 450
>> volts
>>> > output. The power levels adjust from Zero to full advertised line
>> current.
>>> >
>>> > Rich Rudman
>>> > Manzanita Micro
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>>> > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:25 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> Hey John and others:
>>> >>
>>> >> > At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
>>> >> >>Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V
>>> >> >>system,
>> the
>>> >> >>other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able
>>> >> >>to provide both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide
>>> >> >>fully
>>> automatic
>>> >> >>charging ('fire and forget').
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > http://www.manzanitamicro.com
>>> >>
>>> >> Thank you. From what I understand, the PFC-50 would be able to be
>>> >> run off a 110 V 'normal' outlet with its throttle (kind of a worst
>>> >> case
>>> >> scenario) adjusted ?
>>> >>
>>> >> Anybody here able (willing?) to sell me a charger asap (my Zivan
>>> >> just died I need my car back :)
>>> >>
>>> >> mm.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> I suspect that I could be over 80 mph and in the 16s RIGHT now....In 10 more
> >cycles I expect a 15 mile range, and tire smoke at will.
Get it into the 13's and it would dust nearly any street car.. What
would it take? A bigger motor? A Zilla?
Doesn't Jim have any motors?
Put something stout in it and make that thing a terror! ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody Still on my Woodburn Pilgrimage, broadcasting from Keith
VanSickle's Computer, so if my posting is a bit differant, unfamiliar
computer<g>! I'm in the land of California, it must be the water or air. great
things are being done here, dropped in on Ron Gremban at Calcars, drove his way
cool Prius, you can actually DRIVE it as an EV, up to about 40mph.It was nice
to see Ron again, our friendship goes back to the Electric Fuel Propulsion daze
in the early 70's. They ,Cal Cars has done alota the ground work for plugin
Prei, it'll hafta do for now Something that can be done NOW to save oil!!
On to AC Propulsion friday. They gave me the tour, WOW! Cool stuff
there! The T Zero, well I didn't actually ride or drive it. Woulda felt a bit
cheeky to just barge in and demand a ride. But I did get a chance to see the
stuff they are building. For 20 grand, well, not unreasonable I cou a
schlepped home a motor and Magic box,controller AND charger, programmed to any
reasonable aloghrithm for charging. All there in a lovely setup, pop open the
alunimum box, see the pretty printed circuit boards which are to me, F....king
Magic. FM power if you will.Not a Electronic geek, but sure apreciate the magic
wought for me.Needless to say, there were halls of cool stuff being done in San
Dimus. Now for a fraction of the Kill CARB efforts were spent on getting AC
the magic battery?
Day before stopped off at Phoenix Motorcars in Ohji , CA They are doing
cool stuff, too. A truck for a unnamed CA utility, a Ford replicar, 38
roadster, pretty car, Hey! Jay Leno? Got your ears on <g>? Take one home for
about 100 grand! 40 of that is the Valance battery. I actually MET one there,
they look like gp 24's in size, 29 lbs so a tad lighter than a stock 24. That
isn't the all of it ya need a damn good managment, charging, system, no
rectifyers and long, dropping ' stench cords! Bad Boys are out, sigh!
Had a cool ride in Keith's recumbant bike setup electric with an E teck
motor. Goes like hell, EVen with my fat ass aboard!The pod enclosed bike was
here to try. I couldn't really ride it as we are both too damn BIG to fit these
things without serious mods.He's gunna redesign everything so us big guyz can
get in.Really not very knowledgable about the bike powered stuff, but it sure
has a nitch in future transportation.The whole rig will weigh less than MY curb
weight.
Will stop off at an old Army budy's tomorrow then head for Phoenix, See Rick
Prior an' Dave Chapman, and on ward in a generally eastward direction, Chicago,
pick up a rebuilt motor at Warfield, say hi to the Netgain guyz again.
As usual, it's been great seeing the crew again old and new faces, learning
what's going on in EV land, recharging, dump charging? my brain cells
again.More to follow when I get home.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
