EV Digest 4695
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Siemans motors
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Big nicads needed!
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Altrax 7245, palm OS porting
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 300 MPH Quarter EV Technology-Wiring For
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) More EVILbus discussion (Was: Re: e-meter type gadget wish list
wanted)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: What charger to use?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 300 MPH Quarter EV Technology-Wiring For
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: What charger to use?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Woodburn 2005: Wish I were there
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) AGM battery measured capacity and ordering them for my S10!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Make an Aluminum Flywheel
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Buy one of these Ford motors and have it shipped to Electro Automotive
and have an adapter made for $850. ( I can see and understand the
first one costing $850 all things considered. But why should the next
10 or 20 of them cost $850 each?)
Lots of good pics:
http://www.mavin.com/PPD.asp?offset=20&ProductID=132
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/price-pts.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ranger_EV
What inverter is going to be used to drive this motor anyways?
Let's say we had some Zilla type inverter for it with absurd voltage
and amperage (2000+ amps) (how much could this motor take?), just how
much power/performance could we extract from this motor? Not enough
cause it's never enough! :)
How much though? Roughly..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really really really want/need to find about 38-40 large 6v Nicad modules
for my G-van and the same for Tom's. We are going broke buying what gas we
do have to buy (he runs a `78 CVCC and I run a propane Caravan but we have
to gas the Chevy PU to pull a trailer or haul large loads). Chevy cost me $
110 to fill couple days ago, gaaah!!! Anyone have ANY suggestions short of
sticking up an S&L and buying new Safts? Or daisey chaining a bunch of
marathons? Bill M did that with his and it didn't work out too well. I
really want to stick with Ni-cads as I think that is my best fit for mission
range, reliability and maintenance. I was thinking of seeing if some of
those panasonic EV1 batts were left but I am concerned about the remaining
life and the hassles of configuring them with a limited life expectancy.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI all,
Has anyone managed to write some c++ program for the palm os to read off the
memory values of the alltrax controller. I think i have provided the comm
spec sheet.
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
New Aircraft Carriers are planning to have electric catapults.
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2001/Jul/Navy_to_Phase.htm
Does anyone know the weight and launch velocity of a Joint Strike Fighter as
it exits an aircraft carrier after only 300 feet of acceleration?
The article says they were trying to get to 200 kts in 300 feet.
Just think what it could do with 1320 feet.
WOW.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: 300 MPH Quarter EV Technology-Wiring For
> Or wind a big inductor under the track.
>
> Maglev, anyone?
>
> -Tim
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ROBERT RICE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 12:33 AM
> Subject: Re: 300 MPH Quarter EV Technology-Wiring For
>
>
> >
> >
> > Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:27:17 -0700, Lightning Ryan
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Neon John wrote:
> > >> given a megabuck, oh heck, let's make it unlimited funds, tell me in
> > >> general terms how you'd achieve 300 mph in the quarter with an EV.
> > >
> >
> > WHO SEZ THAT YOU CAN'T WIRE THE TRACK WITH CATENERY??NHRA, NEDRA?
> >
> > If yur spending all those bux, just go to the grid or leave the
> monster battery pack at the end of the track.Only a quarter mile do ya
need,
> you run outta wire at the end, no shutdown problem, anyhow. Works for
> Seattle an' transit Vancouver and Amtrak, and EVen the PDX Max<g>!
> >
> > Seeya
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.21/96 - Release Date: 9/10/05
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quoting Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 8/31/05, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > wires. I designed the transceiver itself, terminators (two 150 ohm
> > resistors to +12v and ground), picked a standard connector (RCA phono),
> > and cable (audio shielded cable).
>
> For hobbyists maybe the RCA connector makes sense because it's easy to
> get, but wouldn't twisted pair be better in general?
>
> One thing I've never quite understood is why the old coax standard
> fell out of use for ethernet.
The coax standards were bus topologies - one long cable that snaked around the
room with a tap for each computer. If a break occurred at any point the whole
network was down. This was a nightmare for the poor schmuck (me) who had to
keep it running in the face of users moving their computers and unplugging
things, crushing the cable with furniture, etc. Plus they were rather a pain
to terminate correctly, requiring special crimp tools and/or a soldering iron.
Do it wrong on one connector and, you guessed it, the whole network is down. Or
if you're really unlucky it works at first, then shorts out internally when
someone moves it a few weeks later after you've forgotten which connector you
last fixed.
Sorry, bad flashback there :)
Coax has better noise immunity than twisted pair, which is why Ethernet started
out with it. The original thick Ethernet coax standard was called 10BASE-5,
and the 5 stood for 500 meters maximum distance. By comparison, the 10BASE-T
twisted pair standard maxes out at 100 meters. We only started using twisted
pair because of all the picky little implementation detsils like the ones
described above. The phone company guys had had a century of development to
come up with a robust set of technologies for telephone wiring, and once we
discovered how hard it is to make a coax bus work in an office building, we
jumped ship to twisted pair.
> Cable TV networks have figured out how
> to get massive amounts of data through coax but computer network
> standards people seem to think that twisted pair has inherently more
> bandwidth.
Nope, it's just easier to work with. Also, it's easy to get more than two
conductors in a twisted pair bundle. Also also, the twisted pair tends to be
cheaper than coax.
>
> Anyway IMO twisted pair is easier to work with. Is there any reason
> evil bus can't be used with it?
Apart from noise, I guess not. But getting rid of noise is the whole point of
the EVILbus.
I've been wondering about using optical data transmission - fiber optics - for
an EV bus. You get complete noise immunity at the expense of buying and
terminating fiber cables. But now there's a relatively inexpensive optical
interconnect for audio gear called TOSlink, which uses plastic fibers instead
of glass and plain LEDs instead of lasers. There are lots of ways to encode
the data - Ethernet FOIRL, IRDA, or plain old TV remote control protocols.
You'd probably need a star topology or a daisy-chain (which opens up all the
same issues that caused us to move from coax to twisted pair).
More info on TOSlink: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOSLINK
This little historical digression has reminded me of another networking protocol
- ARCnet. Ethernet drove it underground, but it didn't die - there are millions
of nodes still running it, and chipsets available to implement it. It runs on
lots of different types of wires, including coax. It's a distributed star
configuration, with passive hubs. It might work really well inside an EV -
it's used today mostly in industrial automation settings.
More information on ARCnet:
http://www.arcnet.com/abtarc.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, I'm glad you found such an interested audience. I never have.
I've demonstrated my EV to people and discussed it and EVs in general
with them. I've been around where EVs including some of John
Wayland's machines have been shown and talked to people about
the EVs and listened to John Wayland and others talk about them.
I'd describe people's reactions as curiosity and a bit of "Gee, I didn't
know electric vehicles could that!" awe. I did not detect serious
enthusiasm of the sort that would lead them to own an EV. People
I talk to seem to already know most of the basics. They know batteries
are heavy, slow to recharge, and won't go very far between charges.
They do know that EVs are quiet and non-polluting. About all that's
left for me to tell them is that EVs are a lot faster than golf carts and
technical details.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
To those who say people are uninterested, hear this:
Yesterday in the Microprocessors lab at my University, I
showed a group of students a video of Wayland's electric
Datsun kicking a red Corvette's ass. There were the usual
few who denied the car could be electric, but there were
others who were outright impressed that a little Datsun
powered by batteries, a box of silicon, and two derivations
of a forklift motor could outright RAPE a Corvette. They
aren't racing fanatics, but they do understand what a 12.6 @
104 mph means. This is the territory of $200,000 exotics
like Lamborghini Murceilagos or Ferrari 575 Maranellos. To
see an electric car with ~$25k in parts(perhaps
significantly less) achieve this is very telling about the
progress this technology has made. To see this on the track
must obviously be more than a casual bemusement, especially
judging from the crowds I hear about that always form around
Wayland's car, and the sheer interest people have in the car
thousands of miles away in a University lab.
Again, these are not hardcore racing fanatics, by no means,
who saw this video. Simply college students sharing my major
that were concerned about high gas prices. After seeing what
this car did, a few are interested in building one now, even
if they may not know where to start.
I talked to a few of my professors, Dr. Roobik Gharabagi,
Dr. Habib Rhamin, and others, and they are extremely
interested in how far electric car technology has
progressed. Seeing microprocessor controllers, series wound
DC motors, and AGM batteries push a 2,000 pound car down the
track faster than a Corvette has them asking about the
numbers: how much power is the controller delivering, how
was a controller that powerful built in such a compact
package for so cheap, how do those batteries take such
repeated abuse and continue to last, how does such a small
motor withstand such unbelievable loads for the duration of
time requested, ect. These are people that work with big
numbers in big areas, like transformers, power plants, ect.
They aren't used to seeing 2,000 amps and 170+ volts in
motors that weigh about 120 pounds each.
Some here may be correct that EVs aren't currently pulling
300 mph in the 1/4 in 4 seconds, or that street EVs aren't
pulling 9 second 1/4 miles at 150 mph. So what? Whether it
is possible or not has little bearing on the interest in the
sport as a whole.
What seems to draw people's interest? Lots of things.
Electric drag racing is an area where new advances are
literally being made each week. The engineers here are very
interested just in how this technology has progressed to the
point it is today, and the fact that even 20 years ago no
one would have ever dreamed of this occuring. They want to
know what parts the car has, how they work, just how many
amps, how many runs the car can make before the batteries
are depleted, whether the motors can handle the abuse
repeatedly with little or no wear, how much they cost, the
processes involved in building the car, ect.
Then there's that portion who like the concept of
challenging current stereotypes or defying current cultural
norms. To see a street legal electric car come so far is an
absolute shock to them. Many accounts on this list have been
thrown about in which individuals who have dumped $20k or
more under the hoods of their gas guzzlers(Or have spent
even more buying a high performance car from the showroom
floor instead of building it) have been embarassed to have
been beaten in a race by an EV that cost about the same as
or even less to build. EVs fit the mold of the 'sleeper'.
People think electric motors are only good for powering golf
carts, and then get spanked when they decide to show off
what their gasser can do that the EV supposedly can't. For
those who's car makes up for certain inadequacies, having
your $80k Dodge Viper get beat by a ~$25k electric Datsun
1200 has got to be even worse than being beaten in a race by
a Yugo. The shock value and the prospect of humiliating
people thus draws in another type who has some interest in
this sport.
Some are interested in the mere fact that it is possible to
build a street EV that can kill Vipers and Corvettes,
repeatedly, for less money than it takes to buy one of those
cars. Sure, you can take a Datsun Z car and shove a V8 into
it for about $10k(or less if careful), but it is basically
another Z car with a V8 shoved in it, a fairly common
modification, especially if you're looking for a bargain.
Nothing wrong with it, but it's still going to cost a lot to
keep fueled and may not even be practical for a daily driver
in some circumstances. To have a Civic do the same, one
might be throwing $20k or more under the hood of their car
and said car might need constant attention if it is also a
daily driver. Many a racer have had their engine go out on
them after a few thousand miles because the air/fuel mixture
was not right or the engne simply could not handle what was
thrown at it or perhaps the turbo charger was running too
lean. You can give someone $10k to build an EV, and if they
choose the right chassis and parts, not only could they get
around the high gas prices with a cheap to operate
vehicle(in the case they care for their batteries and use
regs), but it will also still be able to hold its own
against those $35k+ 'sports cars' that prowl the streets
today. Put $20k into an EV, and now you've got a Corvette
killer competitive in price to build with those riced out
cars, perhaps even cheaper to build, with a comparably lower
operating cost. This may draw a few people in, although one
could argue the work and labor involved in building the EV
is worth quite a chunk of cash.
Some are interested just because they are concerned about
certain political issues pertaining to automobile use and
see the electric vehicle as a step in the right direction.
To see an electric achieve the same performance as a high
performance ICE-powered car gives them hope for both the
present and the future.
Whatever the case may be, this sport has attained so much
interest that its participants can't keep up with all the
attention sometimes garnered upon them by the media, curious
onlookers, others who want to build their own, ect. High
School kids are even getting involved and setting their own
records, and sufficient interest exists that people are
granting them thousands of dollars worth of sponsorship.
Thyere is plenty of interest on the part of various small
businesses and even large battery makers that want to
showcase their product because they know the car will be
observed by the virtue of its rarity and shock value.
Back when drag racing was in its infancy, with the likes of
the Green Monster and other curiousities from the 40s and
50s, there was plenty of interest, but little in the way of
participation. Electric drag racing today is in this state.
Few participants, many onlookers all with questions and
comments.
But no interest in electric drag racing? That's a bunch of
horseshit!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Sep 2005 at 18:10, Rich Rudman wrote:
> A series charger that has a transformer or a
> voltage regulated source... How do I say this... Can't hold a regulated
> power or current level. Have substantialy less available power at the higher
> voltages. Say you are doing 120 volts, and you have a rectifier, Or any
> voltage
> and a transformer step up/down. At low battery voltages compared to the peak
> of
> the charger, you will have a rally large current flow, and some chargers will
> fail trying to make the big amps.
I must be misunderstanding this. It sounds like you are suggesting that a
transformer isolated charger can't act as a constant voltage, constant
power, or constant current device.
But that can't be true; that's exactly the way my Brusa charger operates.
It has a microprocessor that monitors voltage, current, and power. It PWMs
the power stage to maintain exactly the voltage, current, or power values I
ask for - and those values can change during a charge cycle. It thus
protects both itself and the battery while charging quickly and
efficiently.
Or am I misunderstanding something here?
Some thoughts on chargers and the original topic of this thread.
I don't mean to minimize Rich's accomplishment on the PFC charger. It's
popular with EV hobbyists on this list for a number of reasons. Mostly:
it's cheap, and it pumps out lots of power. He designed it with input from
the members of this list, and that alone is highly laudable.
Another reason for the PFC charger's popularity among hobbyist EVers on this
list is ... well, Rich talks about it a lot. Some have accused him of using
the list for free advertising. I don't quite see it that way, but I also
don't doubt that the frequent discussion here helps him sell more of them. ;-
)
Rich's is not the only PFC charger available. Russ Kauffman makes another
PFC charger (also non-isolated). It seems to be a pretty capable machine,
with its own feature set. I think Russ would probably sell more of them if
he were as active on the list as Rich is.
The Zivans have their flaws, but they can be viable chargers at a very good
price, if you have enough patience with them.
For those who want to take VERY good care of their batteries, Victor at
Metricmind sells the current version of the Brusa EV charger (mine is an
NLG4). If you don't mind I'd like to point out what you get for the
admittedly rather steep price of the Brusa (currently around $3,800 for the
air cooled model).
My NLG4 can deliver its rated power (3.3kW) over a wide range of battery
voltages, from 132 to 192 volts. Other models support other battery voltage
ranges and the ranges are different for the newer model. Multiple chargers
can also be cascaded for double and triple power.
Outside the nominal voltage range above it will work at maximum current of
25 amps (below range) or maximum voltage of 250 volts (above range). Thus
this charger model can deal with batteries from 6 to 250 volts. Other
models of my charger could charge as high as 485 volts, and the current
Brusa NLG5 can charge up to 720 volts(!).
If you need to use it on a circuit with limited capacity, it has a
connection for an external pot to reduce current manually, functionally
similar to the PFC's adjustment.
One disadvantage is that the Brusa chargers are for 240 volt input. They
will operate on 120 volts, but it's not the best practice. (BTW, they have
a power factor of 0.99.)
> We don't have Micro's.... just some pretty darn smart PFC chips and
> tons of Opamps and comparitors...So... No micro needed.
The Brusa has a highly capable microprocessor, and uses it to take very good
care of the battery. My NLG4 has up to 5 charging stages and a plethora of
programmable rules for moving among them - even backward. I believe the
current model, NLG5, is similar.
I mentioned above its ability to control voltage, current, and power. It
also watches the battery temperature - with two separate sensors - and
adjusts the voltage values to provide the temperature compensation you
request. It can back down the current if the battery gets too hot, then
bring it back up when it cools. It has watchdogs for battery and charger
temperature, too many Wh or ah charged, too many hours of operation, low or
high line voltage, and some others I've probably forgotten. If anything
goes wrong it will shut down and throw an error code. It can log and
monitor charging via an external PC. These provide protection for your
battery, charger, and vehicle.
AFAIK, most of this programming flexibility and protective strategy is not
available in either the PFC or the Russco. I would welcome corrections on
this point, if appropriate.
The Brusa is designed to meet IEC and VDE requirements for isolation,
overvoltage and transient protection. It meets DIN and IEC standards for
noise emissions and sensitivity to interference. This standards compliance
is appropriate for its main market, the EU.
By contrast, AFAIK, the PRC is still not UL approved and has not even
undergone high potential testing. I've heard reports that it has a
deleterious effect on radio and television reception, because (again AFAIK)
controlling interference and RF emission was not a priority in the design.
I would welcome corrections on these points. I don't know about UL approval
or RF standards for the Russco.
Now, the Brusa chargers are far from cheap. Certainly they cost a fair bit
more than the PFC, and I have to admit that the Brusa hasn't the same level
of raw power at certain voltages.
The Brusa chargers are not for everyone. It depends on what you need or
want. For some folks the PFC is the right choice; the Russco and Zivan
chargers are also good chargers in the right situation. For up to 72 volts,
so are the Delta-Q (which I didn't discuss above). For certain situations,
boat anchors such as Lesters may be the right ones, too.
The Brusa's extra cost buys you full isolation, a measure of additional
safety (from meeting regulatory requirements), the assurance that you won't
mess up the neighbor's football game on television ;-), and extraordinary
flexibility and programmability. It can properly and safely charge almost
any battery without external, homebrew controllers.
I think that for at least some people the extended battery life will help
pay for the Brusa's additional cost in the long run. But as I say - they
are not for everyone. All I'm suggesting here is that you look into the
full range of what's available in chargers, before deciding on one just
because a lot of list members use it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out this guy, he generates his own electricity with a wind mill on the
front of his pickup....
http://otherpower.com/bdwm53.html
;-)
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "ROBERT RICE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: 300 MPH Quarter EV Technology-Wiring For
>
>
> Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:27:17 -0700, Lightning Ryan
> wrote:
>
>>Neon John wrote:
>>> given a megabuck, oh heck, let's make it unlimited funds, tell me in
>>> general terms how you'd achieve 300 mph in the quarter with an EV.
>>
>
> WHO SEZ THAT YOU CAN'T WIRE THE TRACK WITH CATENERY??NHRA, NEDRA?
>
> If yur spending all those bux, just go to the grid or leave the monster
> battery pack at the end of the track.Only a quarter mile do ya need, you run
> outta wire at the end, no shutdown problem, anyhow. Works for Seattle an'
> transit Vancouver and Amtrak, and EVen the PDX Max<g>!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The PFC charger was designed to fit in the price/feature/performance gap
between the Zivan and the Brusa .
If Rich spent more time on the PFC charger design, they could be similar to
the Brusa.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
> Some thoughts on chargers and the original topic of this thread.
>
> I don't mean to minimize Rich's accomplishment on the PFC charger. It's
> popular with EV hobbyists on this list for a number of reasons. Mostly:
> it's cheap, and it pumps out lots of power. He designed it with input
from
> the members of this list, and that alone is highly laudable.
>
> Rich's is not the only PFC charger available. Russ Kauffman makes another
> PFC charger (also non-isolated). It seems to be a pretty capable machine,
> with its own feature set. I think Russ would probably sell more of them
if
> he were as active on the list as Rich is.
>
> The Zivans have their flaws, but they can be viable chargers at a very
good
> price, if you have enough patience with them.
>
> For those who want to take VERY good care of their batteries, Victor at
> Metricmind sells the current version of the Brusa EV charger (mine is an
> NLG4). If you don't mind I'd like to point out what you get for the
> admittedly rather steep price of the Brusa (currently around $3,800 for
the
> air cooled model).
>
> The Brusa is designed to meet IEC and VDE requirements for isolation,
> overvoltage and transient protection. It meets DIN and IEC standards for
> noise emissions and sensitivity to interference. This standards
compliance
> is appropriate for its main market, the EU.
>
> By contrast, AFAIK, the PRC is still not UL approved and has not even
> undergone high potential testing. I've heard reports that it has a
> deleterious effect on radio and television reception, because (again
AFAIK)
> controlling interference and RF emission was not a priority in the design.
> I would welcome corrections on these points. I don't know about UL
approval
> or RF standards for the Russco.
>
> Now, the Brusa chargers are far from cheap. Certainly they cost a fair
bit
> more than the PFC, and I have to admit that the Brusa hasn't the same
level
> of raw power at certain voltages.
>
> The Brusa chargers are not for everyone. It depends on what you need or
> want. For some folks the PFC is the right choice; the Russco and Zivan
> chargers are also good chargers in the right situation. For up to 72
volts,
> so are the Delta-Q (which I didn't discuss above). For certain
situations,
> boat anchors such as Lesters may be the right ones, too.
>
> The Brusa's extra cost buys you full isolation, a measure of additional
> safety (from meeting regulatory requirements), the assurance that you
won't
> mess up the neighbor's football game on television ;-), and extraordinary
> flexibility and programmability. It can properly and safely charge almost
> any battery without external, homebrew controllers.
>
> I think that for at least some people the extended battery life will help
> pay for the Brusa's additional cost in the long run. But as I say - they
> are not for everyone. All I'm suggesting here is that you look into the
> full range of what's available in chargers, before deciding on one just
> because a lot of list members use it.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No.
He was running the tach recorder system.
I had not purchased the G-analyst system yet.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
> Did that Kid Nelson rail you G-anyalist at 2.55 Gs???
>
> Rich
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 12:01 AM
> Subject: Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
>
>
> > What did you hit?
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 3:06 PM
> > Subject: Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
> >
> >
> > > But yea I have seen a 2.56 G sensor railed....on street tires.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sadly have never had the opportunity to see a
highway-capable EV in person, let alone see one tearing down
the racetrack in person, or even better yet, even ride in
one. Woodburn 2005 yet again teased me, showing me
everything that I've been missing all these years.
Classes for me have resumed over a week ago(A Junior in
electrical engineering at St. Louis University), along with
a few personal situations to sort out, so my time to post on
the EVDL has been limited to the dismay of a few, but that
won't keep me from posting here in general.
First off, I'd like to congratulate everyone for their
accomplishments there.
First and foremost I was most awed with Dave Cloud's Geo
Metro. Someone please refresh my memory, but what batteries
in specific and what controllers were powering this car's 8
E-Teks? I hear they were floodeds, which give out very
dismal amounts of power, so how in the hell did this car
achieve 14.5 at 91 mph? This is faster than that 225
horsepower Audi TT quattro my dad used to own! If those are
indeed flooded lead acid batteries, I have very many
questions pertaining to their lifespan in such an
application! What pack voltage was being run and how much
amps were drawn and how much did the pack sag to? This can't
be good for their life, but lets be hypothetical and say
somehow Dave Cloud can by some miracle keep this sort of
pack lasting a few hundred or even a few thousand cycles.
He'd have just found perhaps an even cheaper way to build a
door slammer. I won't hold my breath here, but I must
congratulate him on his accomplishment of going that fast on
flooded lead acid alone, regardless of how short or long
their life might be. That is fucking incredible! I only wish
I could find a video of this car somewhere making its runs.
I've seen pictures of its custom bodywork, and he figured
out how to make a GEO METRO, of all things, look sexy.
I'm sorry that Gone Postal couldn't get the traction it
needed. I kind of expected that though, with all that power
at its disposal. There's always next year, but I just know
that thing is going to pull 12s or faster one of these days
with its setup. The only problem is keeping the damned thing
from veering sideways straight into the bleachers. Despite
its refusal to perform at its best, I am still impressed by
the accomplishment of Roderick Wilde, Rich Rudman, Donald
Crabtree, Otmar Ebenhoech, Paul Gooch, Tim Suryan, and many
others that made this EV possible. I've got my fingers
crossed that you all get it to do what it's supposed to by
next year. Just seeing how it performed on TV was convincing
enough as to its capabilities. I certainly don't expect to
be able to come anywhere close to what these guys did(I hope
I surprise myself and that my simulations become what I
achieve in practice, but it's really a crap shoot).
A major disappointment is not hearing much about Fiamp and
Blue Meanie, despite that they were showcased at the
breakfast held. I don't believe either have been run at the
track. I know Blue Meanie is quite quick, with its 0-60 in
the high 5 second low 6 second range, and I'd guess that 1/4
mile must be slightly quicker than Porsche Boxter territory,
but what about Fiamp? It's quite a lightweight, but it has
to make due with a 600 amp controller and 35-40% its weight
in lead. I'm interested in how this car would perform, given
that I hear it can top 100 mph on a good stretch of highway.
50 miles range is also quite good. 1/4 mile? I don't know
much about how the Raptor works, so it's difficult for me to
make an educated guess on it. I'd guess Mark's car would do
high 16s/ low 17s in the 1/4 and 0-60 in 9-10 seconds or so,
but would love to hear about its performance or even see it
run.
I was expecting the Silver Bullet to perform better than it
did earlier since it had a stouter pack of Orbitals
installed, but I'm sure it has some issues to be worked out
and that the setup itself isn't the problem. 15s still isn't
bad. That's what my current gas-guzzler daily driver is
capable of, not fast enough for my own personal tastes, but
still able to blow the doors off of 90% of all the cars that
dare challenge it. Silver Bullet is an excellent example of
a hi-pro EV. I *love* the way it sounds.
RREEEEEEEEEE-Reeeeee-Whiiiiirrrrrrrrrr... That must be a
real crowd pleaser, even if that noise is costing a few
thousand watts from reaching the wheels. What's its range
like under its current setup?
Victor's CRX was also a big surprise. I knew the car had a
respectable setup in the performance department, a 107
horsepower Siemen's AC motor that apparantly could get the
car to 60 in undr 10 seconds, but I never expected Victor to
decide to risk his investment and do a burnout. The photos
of this car are priceless. Of course, he was careful to keep
his expensive Li Ions disconnected from it all. I'm still
waiting for Thundersky to up the specific power and power
density a bit. Imagine a hypothetical set of Li Ions in that
car to allow the motor to make full use of its performance
capabilities without the need for Ultracaps. This burnout
itself is a testament to the capability of Ultracaps, much
in the vein of BYU's EV1.
Of all the EVs displayed at the breakfast, my best guess is
that Blue Meanie, Fiamp, and Rick Barne's Sprint probably
drew the most attention from casual onlookers. This is
coming from someone that wishes they were there who has
never seen an EV in person, but I base that guess on the
fact that these are EVs that people could realistically see
themselves owning and using to commute to work every day.
They could all do 30-40 miles or more, at minimum kept up
with traffic, could do at least 65-70 on the highway, and
wouldn't break the bank to build and would offer cheaper
motoring than the conventional gas-powered fare. I wish Blue
Meanie and Fiamp would be run sometime, just to see how
they'd perform. Certainly better than a 0-60 and 1/4 mile in
22 second Sprint with floodeds(Albeit that's ok for just
barely keeping with traffic and fitting the needs of many,
even if the acceleration would be agonizing to those who
like to have fun)! Fiamp should have no problem holding its
own against most on-road gas powered cars anyway, and Blue
Meanie, well, anyone with a sub $35k car probably wouldn't
have a chance at it unless they were some gearhead with at
least $6-7k to dump under their hood for turbochargers,
computers, ect.; for that price you may as well attempt a
lightweight EV to get similar performance.
Hearing about what these in Portland guys did with that poor
bike owned by Wayland's daughter made me laugh. That must be
scary fun to ride. Imagine taking that thing out onto the
highway. Or better yet, covering the bike with a full faring
as used by those land speed bike riders who pedal their
bikes to 70+ mph on human power.
www.speed101.com/
Wouldn't that be a wild ride to power one of these with a
20+ kW electric drive? I could see one of those doing over
100 miles range on 100 pounds of lead thanks to their use of
laminar flow. Cedric Lynch, eat your heart out.
Finally, I am very pleased to hear about Wayland's
accomplishments with the Zombie, and major props to Tim
Brehm for racing it with an exceptional reaction time, Jim
Husted for that gorgeous motor work(and the zorch was fun to
watch!), Otmar for that ass kicking controller, Dutchman for
getting wayland that axel, and everyone who participated in
that car's construction for making it what it is today.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not surprised about the car's
performance in the least. In the case that all went well, I
expected with certainty that this car would pull mid 12s.
This is no small feat by any means, and I'm very impressed
with what Wayland has done using his current setup. If he
can get traction, as I've said before, he's going to be
pulling 11s. Hell, getting into the mid 12s puts this Datsun
up there with gas-guzzling Ferraris and Lamborghinis. It's
murdering Corvettes and Viperswith a sticker price much
greater than all the components in this car combined(the
labor involved would even things out a bit, but think what
mass production could do). Not many can claim they own a car
that can best those exotics or icons of American car culture
in a straight line, nor is there a sizable number or
automobile owners that can claim they don't need to fill
their car up at the gas station to drive. To be able to
claim both in the same car? Incredible. I sent a few
professors I converse with links to this video, and they are
very interested in this technology, especially when I
mention the amount of current and amount of voltage, perhaps
enough to power a small town. When they see such a compact
controller capable of drawing and outputting hundreds of
kilowatts of power with over 98% efficiency, they are just
plain impressed. hese are the sorts of loads they discuss
when talking about transformers and small power plants, and
these are not loads expected to be handled by 40 pound boxes
of silicon you can throw into a car.
I showed videos of Wayland's White Zombie racing that Vette
and pulling a 12.8 to a few kids in the Microprocessors lab
on my campus, and quite a few were impressed. Some could not
believe this car was electric, even after showing them
photos and video shots of what that car looked like under
the hood, and multiple videos of its performance, such as
the time it killed that Mustang doing a 12.99. Those that
were impressed and could get it through their thick skulls
that the car was really electric are seriously looking at
the prospect of building an EV now, not necessarily a door
slammer, but something respectably quick, in the territory
of 7-8 seconds or so 0-60. One of them just put $60 in the
tank of his F150 to fill it up, and they realize that the
long term trend for gas prices and the cost of oil, even
when adjusted for inflation, is up. What better way to get
them interested than to show them a door slammer like White
Zombie? This car is quite a feat, but it also has much more
to accomplish and I have no doubts its owner will accomplish
those feats. All of those people that made this car possible
are extraordinary individuals.
That 12.59 @ 104 mph run really got me excited. This is the
fastest this car has ever been, and it bested itself on
three seperate occassions during one race day alone.
Now I have a few questions about White Zombie now. The
Hawker Aerobatteries and a significant reduction in battery
weight have got to be bad on the range. What has that figure
changed to, about? I know Zombie was not built for range,
but it is supposed to be street legal, so I'd expect it to
at least have some utility as a commuter. Even without that
amount of range, just the sheer speed of it is impressive
for an EV. I saw the graphs of its motor volts and motor
amps and laughed when I saw that huge spike. I knew outright
that is where the arcing and "THAT WASN'T GOOD" must have
occured. Until what RPM can those motors keep sustaining
2,000 motor amps? 1,500 motor amps? 1,000 motor amps? This
information would be invaluable for finding more accurate
motor constants for that EV simulation program I'm working
on(and for modifying my expectations for my own conversion I
want to do).
I await to see what this car does in the future. With a
proper change in overall gearing, and with proper traction,
there shouldn't be one damn thing keeping this car out of
the 11s. Imagine what it would do with Siamese 9's, or even
a monster WarP 13. Got torque?
Jim Husted's motor work along with that monster differential
the Dutchman made have me seriously wishing I could afford
their products for my conversion, no matter how far past my
budget that would ever be. Those items alone added with a HV
Zilla 2k would at minimum double the money I plan to dump
into this car, which given my current situation, might set
me back a decade. :-) Even so, the door of street EV options
has opened up another crack with this race at Woodburn
thanks to John Wayland tearing up the envelope once again.
He's treading into new territory and proving that in
practice one can achieve what has only previously been mused
about in theory.
I have one more thing to say, directed specifically at John:
Get off your ass and get that bitch on a dyno! The whole EV
community is waiting!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi list,
I want to update you all on my progress testing AGM batteries,
in particular two UB121100 (110Ah 12V) under repeated 75A load.
The second battery has just finished its 7th cycle and it took
66 minutes with a 0.16 Ohm load to take it down to 10.5V, after
charging it for 8 hours at max 13A and max 14.1V (lab supply).
Taking the voltage (and thus current) taper-off into account
I see that the battery has provided slightly over its rated 80Ah
at the 1-hour 80A discharge spec.
That is not bad, especially with a guilty conscience as I have,
because in the previous cycle I forgot I was testing and it ran
down to 4V (!) after 100 min of 0.16 Ohm load. Ooops. Don't tell
the guy I borrowed this battery from - I was mightily scared
that I reversed a cell and destroyed the battery, but it came
back all by itself to well over 10V by simply removing the load,
so no cell was permanently reversed and putting the current into
it resulted in the full capacity.
That takes away most of my scare of using these batteries in my
new S10 US Electricar (modified to Wave controller) so early
next week I will be ordering a pack of these batteries plus the
batteries of someone else who needs a new pack, as I was offered
the Distributer price for these batteries: $85 including shipping
(when the order is large enough). With the two of us we should
have enough clout to get the good pricing and free shipping to
South Bay Area (Sunnyvale).
Let me know if you are also interested in AGMs for about $1 per
usable Ah at 12V.
FYI:
The S10 USE has a double battery box that will fit 2x 7+4 of
these batteries on their side, the car is setup for 312V = 26
batteries so I will have 4 more in a box right behind the rear
axle. I will see if the design my friend is making for this box
can be shared on this list, in case others also want to equip a
312V S-10 with these batteries - I have not found a better type
of battery that is maintenance free, has so much usable power
and for this price.
After killing the first battery (well, reducing its capacity by
20Ah) when charging it to 14.9V, I was real careful with the
second battery and took it only up to 14.1V at 25 - 40 deg C
ambient temp to avoid over-charging it. I know I did not under-
charge it because it delivered rated amphours and also because
the charge current became almost independent from the voltage
at the end phase of charging: going from 14.1V to 14.5V for a
few moments only raised the current by less than 1 Amp, going
from 6 to 7A at some point in time.
Anyway - stay charged!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
More important than the weight of a flywheel is it's product of
inertia. Go to tilton's site and check out the difference between
product of inertia and weight.
There are so many used 7.5 dual plate tilton clutches with button
flywheels out there it is ridiculus.
You have to make the adapter anyway or buy it so just make or buy SBC
(small block chevy).
I bought a used one from Michelle @ M&R Racing. great people.
http://www.mrracingequipment.com/
lots of used stuff
I am sorry, I missed your application, what is it going in?
PS. tilton and quartermaster and some others have a standard mounting
pattern since they were used for racing. Ford/chevy, no matter. cool
Tilton will sell you/make any disk spline, if your application is not
popular. I paid $160 for a new set of tripple disk 5-1/4 splined for a
nissan and just put them in place of the chevy 10splines that came with
the pack, same friction plate.
ebay
SBC flywheel for 7.250 tilton/quartermaster : 7998886727
Whole kit n kabootal : 7998945801
Some of these are miss-leading when you look at the pictures because
they are thin 4140 steel flywheels tapered down to the starter ring and
the starter ring is a smaller diameter than stock. Racers like to use
low ground clearance bell housings and bellhousing mounted starters.
One last item. These clutches are not for street use with motors that
idle. They would chatter and grab trying to slip them from a start and
be neck snappingly violent (no slip and no disk springs. My thought is
that that is something you don't do in an EV anyway.
--- End Message ---
