EV Digest 4771
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: building from scratch
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Solar Trailer?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Solar Trailer?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Solar Trailer?
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: building from scratch
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Battery or Generator Trailer
by "Mike Whiteley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Solar Trailer?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Financing a conversion?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Vintage parts info wanted
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Financing a conversion?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Electric Vehicle: 4 passenger...just $2250
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Use of Photovoltaics for EVs
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Ev state of charge display?
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: building from scratch
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Wanted - information on DC motor
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Another NEDRA rule question
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Electric Vehicle: 4 passenger...just $2250
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Capacitor Drag Racing Idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Siemens EV Motors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Solar Trailer?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Designing for safety (was "Re: Composite monocoque vs. sand buggy"
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Ev state of charge display?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I would think that there are two clear advantages to a trike - less drag on
tires and simplicity of function. The trike can use readily available
harley rims for a belt drive setup and just about any width you could want.
Plus brakes back there would have many options to choose from. What kind of
front end are you planning? I would think a double wishbone setup would be
pretty straightforward. You could use components from a mustang 2. They
seem to be the choice for kit car manufacturers. Why only 72V? I guess if
you wanted to use Trojan L16HC batteries 12 of them would only weigh 1476
pounds and give you a whole ton of AH capacity and 2000 cycles.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: brian baumel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:07 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: building from scratch
well our thoughts are to start the prototype with a
direct drive motorcycle rear end (its going to be a
trike) then after we've assessed the end result we'd
upgrade to front wheel drive, since it would be more
work. unless the groups general opinion is to start it
with front wheel drive? 72V 6.7" series motor hooked
to a rear differential. opinions?
Regards,
Brian
--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here is a thought I am just throwing out there -
>
> How about a dual motor setup using a transfer case
> in the front mounted
> sideways for the front two wheels and then a motor
> hooked directly to the
> differential in the back. You could have them
> controlled in series/parallel
> just like White Zombie but in a different
> configuration. You could have
> both run to get you up to speed but then shut one
> off (the rear or the
> front) when you were up to speed to save energy.
> Just a thought.
>
> Jody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Brooks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 4:06 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: building from scratch
>
>
> First you have to decide if you want it to be FWD,
> front motor - rear wheel
> drive, mid-motor or rear motor. Transverse motor or
> longitudinal ?
> Automatic trans, manual trans or no trans ? Once you
> have the basic layout
> designed in your head then you can put pencil to
> paper and start designing
> the frame and the jig to build the frame on. Then
> you acquire the tranny,
> and other running gear.
>
> The best way to assure that all the suspension works
> as needed is to copy
> the dimensions of the donor car. The easiest way is
> to use the A-arms and
> spindle assemblies from the same vehicle that all
> the rest of the drivetrain
> is taken from. Then you just make sure that all the
> A-arm mounts are in the
> same exact location in reference to one another and
> the ground and you then
> know that the geometry will be OK.
>
> I once built a dirt midget from the ground up and
> there is a lot of thinking
> and cogitating that goes on as the car takes shape.
> You end up with a chair
> on each side of the jig so that you can sit and
> visualize the build process
> and work out the design elements as you proceed. You
> need to write down a
> general order of assembly or you may find yourself
> having to "unbuild"
> things because you missed a step.
>
> What sort of body are you thinking of using ?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 3:26 PM
> Subject: building from scratch
>
>
> > greeting all,
> > a friend and I are starting a electric car project
> > from the group up. we are planning on designing
> and
> > building the chassis and the whole bit. ambitious
> I
> > know. I was wondering if anyone had advice to
> share
> > and/or possibly sources for parts like the front
> > suspension (new)....
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
______________________________________________________
> > Yahoo! for Good
> > Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
> > http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> How large of a panel is a 60V one? What is the current output capability?
> I am thinking that even then you would have only about 2 amps max of
> output
> current. To get enough to run the charger (240V 30 amp) you would need 60
> amps of power from the panels. I am generalizing here so don't kill me
> for
> my math.
First of all you don't need anywhere near that much power for the proposed
project.
However, let's assume that for some reason you DID need 7.2kilowatts worth
of solar panels. Guess what? You need EXACTLY the same square footage of
panels no matter whether you use a 24V @ 300 amp array or a 60V @ 120 amp.
The array has to be large enough to charge the bike on Friday, which means
it's already large enough to charge the bike on monday, so storing the
power from the weekend doesn't help much.
The only time, that I can think of, that batteries on the trailer would
help is on rainy/cloudy days. However, chances are he's not going to ride
the bike on a rainy day anyway.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>snip
Frankly, I would put the money into a vehicle that can go the whole 27
miles easily, every day. Solar panels sitting in a carpark are likely
to get damaged or stolen.
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
>snip
I hope that other people can do that and I know they do. The basic thing is I
want a motorcycle on the road very soon. I'm a bicyclist that lives in a area I
can't ride, and no I can't move, take a different route or change the traffic
to allow me to ride.
I have a EV truck that can easily go 27 miles and does. I can convert a small
car that will go 27 miles with less energy or a 3 wheeler like the freedomev or
get a freedomev which may go the 27 miles for days without even charging but I
really just feel much more confortable in a leaning 2 wheeler. After years of
not owning a car in connecticut and riding my bicycle everywhere or owning an
ev but mostly riding my bicycle it just ruins my day to drive my truck or my
wifes car.
Even semi streamlined I don't know if it'll easily go 27 miles even if I bought
expensive batteries or better streamlined it and well I already have batteries
and motors and a controller. What I might have better luck with at work is to
stow 2 24 or a 48 volt panel on the bike or maybe stow them at work inside or
in a little lockbox attached to the emergency call box. Then I could set them
up when I get there and put a few amps back in.
My current train of thought is I want it on the road now. Maybe eventually I
can get it so it'll go 50 miles a day with better streamlining or batteries
but I'd probably still want to get some solar power. Call it an little
indulgance kind of like driving an EV in the first place is for me.
Thanks,
Mark Hastings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
L16 batteries are 6 v, so 2 only make 12v, you would need 4 to make 24 v.
And they only have a c20 rate of 420 ah, so for the entire string you would
only have a reserve of 420 ah, nowhere near enough to charge a EV pack of
maybe 120 v, or a string of 20 T-105's
I also think you would have to have more than 2 panels.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 4:34 AM
Subject: RE: Solar Trailer?
> What you could do is make the trailer run off of 2 Trojan L16HC batteries in
> series for 24 volts and then have a 24 volt inverter change that to AC 240V
> to run a charger or 115V for a charger. That way you could be down to 2
> panels to charge the system and the L16HC batteries would have plenty of
> capacity to run the charge cycle. You would also have to figure out some
> kind of theft protection for the trailer - I myself would not feel
> comfortable leaving a trailer with high dollar equipment in the parking lot
> unattended.
>
> Jody
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you read some of the chassis building books and websites suggested, you
will find that rear wheel drive is typically superior to front wheel drive
for acceleration.
If you build a car without a transmission, you will be limited in your
acceleration and or top speed. See the archives, there are many discussions
on this in the past few months.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of brian baumel
Sent: September 28, 2005 8:07 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: building from scratch
well our thoughts are to start the prototype with a direct drive motorcycle
rear end (its going to be a
trike) then after we've assessed the end result we'd upgrade to front wheel
drive, since it would be more work. unless the groups general opinion is to
start it with front wheel drive? 72V 6.7" series motor hooked to a rear
differential. opinions?
Regards,
Brian
--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here is a thought I am just throwing out there -
>
> How about a dual motor setup using a transfer case in the front
> mounted sideways for the front two wheels and then a motor hooked
> directly to the differential in the back. You could have them
> controlled in series/parallel just like White Zombie but in a
> different configuration. You could have both run to get you up to
> speed but then shut one off (the rear or the
> front) when you were up to speed to save energy.
> Just a thought.
>
> Jody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Brooks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 4:06 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: building from scratch
>
>
> First you have to decide if you want it to be FWD, front motor - rear
> wheel drive, mid-motor or rear motor. Transverse motor or
> longitudinal ?
> Automatic trans, manual trans or no trans ? Once you have the basic
> layout designed in your head then you can put pencil to paper and
> start designing the frame and the jig to build the frame on. Then you
> acquire the tranny, and other running gear.
>
> The best way to assure that all the suspension works as needed is to
> copy the dimensions of the donor car. The easiest way is to use the
> A-arms and spindle assemblies from the same vehicle that all the rest
> of the drivetrain is taken from. Then you just make sure that all the
> A-arm mounts are in the same exact location in reference to one
> another and the ground and you then know that the geometry will be OK.
>
> I once built a dirt midget from the ground up and there is a lot of
> thinking and cogitating that goes on as the car takes shape.
> You end up with a chair
> on each side of the jig so that you can sit and visualize the build
> process and work out the design elements as you proceed. You need to
> write down a general order of assembly or you may find yourself having
> to "unbuild"
> things because you missed a step.
>
> What sort of body are you thinking of using ?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 3:26 PM
> Subject: building from scratch
>
>
> > greeting all,
> > a friend and I are starting a electric car project from the group
> > up. we are planning on designing
> and
> > building the chassis and the whole bit. ambitious
> I
> > know. I was wondering if anyone had advice to
> share
> > and/or possibly sources for parts like the front suspension
> > (new)....
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
______________________________________________________
> > Yahoo! for Good
> > Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
> > http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I finally got up enough guts to post on this list.
(This is my first post, please don't flame me. . lol )
This probably isn't a novel idea but as an effort to increase
the range of EV's, would it really be that bad to have either:
1. A optional trailer packed with batteries, for extended range
(just for those long trips)
OR
2. A optional gas generator packed in a little trailer for really
long trips.
This would effectively make the EV more useful for everyone. The
vehicle would run only on electricity most of the time but could use
some gas for demanding long trips (even several hundred miles). It's
as simple as hooking up a trailer (assuming the supporting electronics
are in place).
Please let me know if anyone does this, or if this has been hashed out
before. Thanks.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> OK, the panel link below shows the panels are capable of 57 volts at about
> 3
> amps each. To be able to run the whole pack you would need 3 of those
> panels which would be 171 volts at about 3 amps if you connected them in
> series.
Which pack are we talking about? THe original poster was asking about an
electric motorcycle. I don't know of ANY motorcycles that carry a 156V
pack that stores 6+ kwh worth of energy. Heck I don't know of any
motorcycles at all that carry 6kwh at any voltage. THat would be
something like 18 Optima YTs
> If you ran 9 panels (3 parallel strings of 3) that would increase
> the output to 9 amps (1539 W). That is not enough to charge the pack very
> effectively in my humble opinion. Now if all of the panels were connected
> in parallel (9 panels) and charge a 24V pack that is 57 volts at 27 amps
> or 1539 watts going into the two L16HC batteries. The L16HC batteries
> could take a 30 amp draw for say 4 hours and get recharged from the array.
> If you get 10 hours of sun a 9 panel array should be able to get the
> batteries back up to snuff.
Ok first of all, batteries don't MAKE energy, they store it. If you are
going to pull 6kwh worth of energy out of a set of Lead-Acid batteries,
then you need to put approx 8kwh worth of energy INTO them (to account for
charging inefficiency)
Secondly, I don't know of anywhere that you can average 10 hours worth of
solar charging a day. 4-5 hours is typical of southern states, 2-4 of
the more norther ones.
Finally, as has been pointed out, Power is NOT measured in Amps, it's
measured in Watts, and energy is measured in Watt Hours.
If you are going to draw 30 amps at 12V out of a battery and run it
through a converter to get 240V, then you only end up with approx 1.5
Amps.
30A x 12V = 360 Watts. 240V x 1.5Amps = 360 Watts.
Real life you'll get less than 1.5 amps because you loose some power in
the conversion.
So, if you use batteries, you loose energy during charging, you loose more
in the conversion up to 240 volts and you loose more in the battery
charger to charger the on board batteries. Also, unless you run a Max
Power Point Tracker, you will loose voltage between the array and the
batteries.
12V arrays are actually at least 16V. If you connect it directly to the
battery, the battery draws the voltage down to it's level. But the
CUrrent doesn't change much.
An array rated for 100 Watts , usually means that it can produce 16V @
6.25 Amps (or whatever). If you hook it directly up to a 12V battery,
then it will produce ~13V at ~6.3 amps = 82 Watts. You've just lost 18%
of your power. Near end of charge the battery voltage is ~ 14.5V @ 6.25A
= 90Watts. Now you are only loosing 10%.
The battery Charges at between 13 and 14.5V, but discharges at between
10.5 and 11.5V. For simplicity, call it 13.5V and 11V. The battery also
requires approx 10% more current coming in than goes out.
If you do the math, then you'll see that the battery will only output
approx 75% of the energy it takes to charge it.
So now you've lost 15% from the array being directly connected to the pact
and another 25% in battery charging efficiency.
Then you run it through an inverter, you loose another 15%. Then through
a charger another 15-25%.
So 15% * 25% * 15% * 15% = approx 46%. You are loosing over 50% of the
energy produced by the array.
If you run the array directly into a DC-DC converter, you'll loose ~ 15%
of the power and that's it.
15% vs 54% looses, which would you choose?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:58 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Solar Trailer?
>
>
> On 9/28/05, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> How large of a panel is a 60V one? What is the current output
>> capability?
>> I am thinking that even then you would have only about 2 amps max of
> output
>> current.
>
> http://shop.altenergystore.com/itemdesc~product~Sanyo+Hip-190ba3+190w+Pv+Pan
> el+-In+Stock~ic~SAN190BA3~eq~~Tp~.htm
>
>
>> To get enough to run the charger (240V 30 amp) you would need 60
>> amps of power from the panels. I am generalizing here so don't kill me
> for
>> my math.
>
> In the application mentioned you would be charging the batteries
> directly with the panels. Power is measured in Watts, not Amps :)
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 28 Sep 2005 at 1:27, Neon John wrote:
> you're going to have a difficult time proving to
> an insurance agent that the stated value of $10k or whatever for a Geo
> Metro is reasonable regardless of the propulsion mode.
Probably it depends on the agent and underwriter. No doubt some will be
more flexible than others.
In 1999, I obtained a stated value policy on my Solectria Force without any
hassles at all. I gave $8,000 as the value. After I explained that the car
sold new for about $30k, and had less than 20,000 miles on it, the agent
accepted my declaration without complaint.
Had she been unwilling to do so, I would have asked Solectria to provide a
letter supporting my declaration. I'm sure they would have written one,
since they also provided a letter for my local EPA so I could get an
exemption from our I&M program. I wouldn't be surprised if Solectria have
boilerplate text for such letters.
I trade with a local independent agent, and the underwriter is Westfield.
I've been insured by these folks for over 30 years (that may have worked to
my advantage too).
I would think that one could also provide support for a value declaration by
compiling stats from Ebay auctions. I haven't tried this, though.
I also haven't tried getting a loan on such a vehicle (which is what this
thread was originally about, I guess). I don't guess it's all that helpful,
but I'd have to agree with John; you're better off paying cash. You could
also try getting a home equity loan. Unsecured personal loans are the most
expensive kind, with interest rates that IMO border on usury.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 27 Sep 2005 at 20:20, pete sias wrote:
> First is the Siemens motor, a big brute ...
This sounds like the motor I saw years ago at RBI in Michigan. I believe it
came out of one of the early prototype electric postal vans based on VW Golf
chassis. I think this is the same vehicle as "Gone Postal." I don't know
anything more than that about it, sorry.
>
> Second item is the Lester charger model #9865 rated at
> 108 volts. I see they still do chargers for golf
> carts. Can it be adjusted for other voltages?
You can use a full wave rectifier to get double the voltage, but that's
about all you can do. And if it's a Lestronic, you'd lose the the "timer"
(dv/dt shutoff board), which AFAIK is not adjustable.
If you can't use a 108v charger, I'd say your best bet is to find a buyer
for that charger (it's a classic and very sturdy, if excruciatingly heavy)
and put the proceeds toward a newer, lighter charger.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I had a boat that was almost paid off went to the bank refinanced it got 6,000
dollars cash out of the loan for my finance.
Tom
>
> From: Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/09/27 Tue PM 11:16:12 EDT
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Financing a conversion?
>
> Bob Bath wrote:
>
> > With all due respect, be smart.
> > Insure it as an EV; actual cash value policy.
> > If Don had done so, the insurance papers would prove
> > the value, and the bank might be more inclined to lend
> > the market value.
>
> I haven't made inquiries in that direction, but they didn't seem
> inclined to discuss the matter... I did give them a link to, I think it
> was zap's page, showing the current market value of the car. "we have
> to go by the vin" seemed to be the end of it. I'm not looking so much
> for alternative forms of financing, as to find out if there is anyone
> who doesn't *require* an alternative form of financing...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As Rod Serling would say "presented for your approval". Would be interesting to
see one of these in person. David Chapman.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Vehicle-4-passenger-just-2250_W0QQitemZ7186019720QQcategoryZ40152QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I am doing a cost-benefit analysis of my various mounting options. I
> will have a roof-array on my EV bus. Right now I am leaning towards
> _not_ leaning towards the sun-- planning a simple flat install, five
> inches above the existing roofline.
I would at least make them hinge on the left side and lift up on the right
side. This way you could pack facing west and at least angle them to
match your latitude. That will give you 10-15% more energy.
After that, actually tracking the sun will only gain you another 5-10% IIRC.
The first option costs practically nothing extra. The second get's fairly
expensive.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi people
I have been thinking about this for a while after
seeing all the posts on the difficulties with metering
the state of charge of an ev battery pack.
I wonder if, other than a bit of added cost, if a 1/4
split battery pack might give a more secure feeling to
the driver... arrange your pack into say... 4 - 30ah
packs (I know ... smaller batteries and more
connections) and have a shifter and display indicating
full charge for each which switches off when used up
to 80% discharge ... then shift to the next... you'd
end up with 3 rested packs to allow a small reserve
capicity.
Any of you have any thoughts on this scheme? Am I
completely out to lunch?
Tom
__________________________________________________________
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll start by saying that I'm a big fan of three wheeled EVs, I already
own two and have a couple more in planning & developement.
That said, there are a few disadvantages to trikes.
Potholes...you can straddle potholes in a normal car, doesn't work so well
with another wheel in the middle.
Ballance can be tricky. If you don't plan it right you can end up with a
vehicle that is subject to endos or flipping on corners. You can design a
vehicle that doesn't do this, but you have to pay attention to ballance.
In Federal regulations, three wheeled vehicles are considered motorcycles
not cars.
Some states don't allow you to register three wheeled vehicles, others do
but might have restrictions on them. Some states require the vehicle
weigh less than 1500 lbs, some require two rear wheels, some require a
saddle, some require that you sit "straddling" the vehicle, etc.
Save yourself some headaches and check your state regulations first.
You might consider buying a book called "Build Your Own Sports Car for as
Little as £250 and Race It!"
This book details how to build everything from the frame, to the
suspension components, to the body panels. Some of the ideas might be
useful in your vehicle.
You also might consider buying/building a standard conversion first. Just
to learn what does and doesn't work before you commit to it in your
design.
> I would think that there are two clear advantages to a trike - less drag
> on
> tires and simplicity of function. The trike can use readily available
> harley rims for a belt drive setup and just about any width you could
> want.
> Plus brakes back there would have many options to choose from. What kind
> of
> front end are you planning? I would think a double wishbone setup would
> be
> pretty straightforward. You could use components from a mustang 2. They
> seem to be the choice for kit car manufacturers. Why only 72V? I guess
> if
> you wanted to use Trojan L16HC batteries 12 of them would only weigh 1476
> pounds and give you a whole ton of AH capacity and 2000 cycles.
>
> Jody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: brian baumel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:07 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: building from scratch
>
>
> well our thoughts are to start the prototype with a
> direct drive motorcycle rear end (its going to be a
> trike) then after we've assessed the end result we'd
> upgrade to front wheel drive, since it would be more
> work. unless the groups general opinion is to start it
> with front wheel drive? 72V 6.7" series motor hooked
> to a rear differential. opinions?
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
>
> --- "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Here is a thought I am just throwing out there -
>>
>> How about a dual motor setup using a transfer case
>> in the front mounted
>> sideways for the front two wheels and then a motor
>> hooked directly to the
>> differential in the back. You could have them
>> controlled in series/parallel
>> just like White Zombie but in a different
>> configuration. You could have
>> both run to get you up to speed but then shut one
>> off (the rear or the
>> front) when you were up to speed to save energy.
>> Just a thought.
>>
>> Jody
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ray Brooks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 4:06 PM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: building from scratch
>>
>>
>> First you have to decide if you want it to be FWD,
>> front motor - rear wheel
>> drive, mid-motor or rear motor. Transverse motor or
>> longitudinal ?
>> Automatic trans, manual trans or no trans ? Once you
>> have the basic layout
>> designed in your head then you can put pencil to
>> paper and start designing
>> the frame and the jig to build the frame on. Then
>> you acquire the tranny,
>> and other running gear.
>>
>> The best way to assure that all the suspension works
>> as needed is to copy
>> the dimensions of the donor car. The easiest way is
>> to use the A-arms and
>> spindle assemblies from the same vehicle that all
>> the rest of the drivetrain
>> is taken from. Then you just make sure that all the
>> A-arm mounts are in the
>> same exact location in reference to one another and
>> the ground and you then
>> know that the geometry will be OK.
>>
>> I once built a dirt midget from the ground up and
>> there is a lot of thinking
>> and cogitating that goes on as the car takes shape.
>> You end up with a chair
>> on each side of the jig so that you can sit and
>> visualize the build process
>> and work out the design elements as you proceed. You
>> need to write down a
>> general order of assembly or you may find yourself
>> having to "unbuild"
>> things because you missed a step.
>>
>> What sort of body are you thinking of using ?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 3:26 PM
>> Subject: building from scratch
>>
>>
>> > greeting all,
>> > a friend and I are starting a electric car project
>> > from the group up. we are planning on designing
>> and
>> > building the chassis and the whole bit. ambitious
>> I
>> > know. I was wondering if anyone had advice to
>> share
>> > and/or possibly sources for parts like the front
>> > suspension (new)....
>> >
>> > regards,
>> >
>> > Brian
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
> ______________________________________________________
>> > Yahoo! for Good
>> > Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
>> > http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve, not really what you asked about but I was wondering if next time you
are at your buddies motor shop, could you get me more info on the " 14-18"
motor " that you were offered? Offlist reply would be fine. Thanks, David
Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:32 AM
Subject: Wanted - information on DC motor
> On Saturday, I plan to go out and select the drive motor from the many
that
> my friend has available at his repair shop. He typically works only on
> industrial equipment, but he knows a great deal about motors and
rebuilding them. As
> far as EV's go, he has very little knowledge. I want to be sure I get
> something that is capable of propelling the Geo Metro with decent
acceleration, but
> not so big that I need a massive battery pack that the car can't
accommodate.
> Does anyone have any specific information on RFE industrial motors so that
I
> can pick a good one. Right now, I am going with "a series wound motor as
big
> as I can pick up which should give me an 80 - 90 lb list motor ~ 7.5"
> diameter" - very roughly. What brand is best? Should I stick with name
plates
> reading 36 V, or opt for the 36 / 48 V. Again, I want to be sure that I
can
> actually power the thing. Also, it has to be physically small enough that
I can
> handle it and get it in the car. He offered me a motor that is 14 - 18"
diameter,
> 48 V, and probably can generate a max of 150+ HP. I know that is too big,
> but what do I really need?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Powers
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks ...it's got two commutators... and is run as two motors in series
parallel operations...
So... it's got two motors... how they are coupled ...doesn't matter.
Lets try to keep the simple ideas ...simple.
I didn't think we were counting motors on a single drive train, Just so
nobody ever has a issue.
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Another NEDRA rule question
> Hello to All,
>
> Hump wrote:
>
> > Is John's Siamese 8 one motor or two?
> >
> > I say it's one motor.
> >
> Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
> Hi Hump,
>
> > This is only my opinion, the final decision would come from our tech
> > director but I would feel that since it is on a single armature shaft
> > and there is no coupling I would personally call it a single custom
> > made motor with two commutators.
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> >
> I too, consider it one motor, since the housing is bolted together as
> one piece with a custom machined center section and it's been modified
> to the extent to where the separated pieces can't be used as two
> separate motor housings anymore (one section is different than the
> other). It also has, as Rod points out, a single custom designed and
> machined stainless steel armature shaft that both armatures are pressed
> onto. It has one output shaft, no couplers of any kind, and one fan that
> cools the entire assembly. For what it's worth, I call it a 'dual
> armature motor' which is very close to Rod's 'single custom made motor
> with two commutators'. I also list it as a single motor in all my
> writings and posts.
>
> I would happily accept any redefinition NEDRA comes up with in regards
> to rules and or regs governing such things. It's actually cooler to say
> the car has two motors, especially when talking tech stuff with the gas
> dudes at the track (two motors sounds more macho than one motor to these
> guys), but I don't think that's an accurate description anymore.
>
> See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless it was a missprint, when I checked their website before it
mentioned that these vehicles use a 750 Watt motor.
If that's the case the top speed of 20 mph is either wishful thinking or
it means "when traveling down a steep hill".
750 watts is about right for an electric bicycle, it's woefully inadequate
for a four person van or a utility truck with a 1,000 payload.
> As Rod Serling would say "presented for your approval". Would be
> interesting to see one of these in person. David Chapman.
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Vehicle-4-passenger-just-2250_W0QQitemZ7186019720QQcategoryZ40152QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> Wouldn't you just prefer to have a controller that used PWM to shunt
> current away from the field?
You could do that, too. It's a pretty specialized controller, though, to
handle 500 amps at 1 volt.
> An inductor and capacitor in parallel has a resonant frequency and
> will ring out at that freq whenever the current changes. This may
> be undesirable.
Yes; highly undesirable. It would make the motor's torque pulsate, for
one thing. Let's see...
Resonant frequency with a 2700F capacitor and 100uH field inductance:
F = 1 / 2 pi sqrt(L x C)
F = 1 / 6.28 x sqrt(0.0001h x 2700f)
F = 1 / 6.28 x sqrt(0.27)
F = 1 / (6.28 x 0.519)
F = 1 / 3.26
F = 0.306 Hz
Q is the ratio of reactance to resistance, and tells you whether it will
"ring" or whether any oscillations will be damped out. If Q is less than
1, it won't oscillate. At resonance:
Q = X / R where X = Xc = Xl = 1 / 2 pi F C = 2 pi F L
Xl = 2 x 3.14 x 0.306hz x 0.0001h
Xl = 0.000192 ohms
Q = 0.000192 / 0.01
Q = 0.0192
Therefore, there is no fear of it oscillating.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> Question is - why would you want 60HZ? I would think if you are
> interested in a motor capable to drive a vehicle a 400Hz 3 phase
> would be a lot easier to find than a 60Hz that can handle the torque.
> 400Hz motors are a lot smaller and more powerful.
You're right; higher frequency motors are much smaller and lighter for a
given horsepower. All the motors in airplanes are 400 Hz for exactly
that reason. Likewise, car alternators are actually high frequency AC
motors.
However, higher frequency means much thinner laminations, made of a
higher grade of steel. (Of course they ignore this for car alternators
to save money; thus their terrible efficiency).
I used a 120/208vac 15kw 3-phase 400hz aircraft alternator as the
traction motor in my 2nd EV. Very nice and compact; it only weighed
about 75 lbs. But its efficiency was poor; about 75-80%. Combining that
with the inverter's efficiency made the overall efficiency worse than a
plain old DC brushed series motor setup.
and Ryan Stotts wrote:
> I've searched and searched and I don't think there is such a thing.
Exactly. Water-cooled electric motors are non-standard. Nobody uses them
except the auto companies. I suspect they used them because they are so
used to water-cooled ICEs.
> I've also looked for suitable air cooled AC motors.
There are *lots* of them, of course.
> Even if found, there is still the inverter issue...
Yes. However, there are getting to be lots of industrial inverters for
reasonable prices. They aren't quite suitable as-is for a vehicle drive
(not packaged for the automotive environment, too limited a range of
torque and speed, etc.) But there's hope to modify one.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> having the panels charge the pack directly, you would need to
> separate the batteries and assign one to each panel, or wire all
> the panels in series to charge the pack... panels are 12V, so a
> 156 volt pack needs 15 panels. I think now you just got out of
> the feasibility of the trailer concept.
You could use something like my Battery Balancer. The weakest battery
limits your range -- so charge it! The Battery Balancer has a single 12v
charging source, which can be connected to any battery with relays. It
finds the lowest battery, and charges it. As that one charges, it
periodically looks for the next one, charges it; and so on.
This allows a single standard 12v panel to charge any pack voltage.
There are no losses from DC/DC converters or inverters and chargers.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Stephenson wrote:
> How does one learn how to design well for safety using foam and
> composites, especially for a 'roll cage'?
The standard answer is to do lots of crash tests; or get some very
powerful computers and very expensive software to do crash simulations.
Neither of these is practical for the home builder. All they can do is
listen to the experts, and try to sort out the good advice from the bad.
I think most home builders depend on accidents being rare. You can get
away with anything if you don't get in an accident! And, they just
overbuild the heck out of it; make things 10 times stronger than they
need to be just in case.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Watson wrote:
I wonder if, other than a bit of added cost, if a 1/4
split battery pack might give a more secure feeling to
the driver... arrange your pack into say... 4 - 30ah
packs (I know ... smaller batteries and more
connections) and have a shifter and display indicating
full charge for each which switches off when used up
to 80% discharge ... then shift to the next... you'd
end up with 3 rested packs to allow a small reserve
capicity.
An interesting idea but I see a few drawbacks:
It will result in the batteries taking more trips down to a lower DOD
thus shortening their lives. (Imagine a short 1/4 range trip, one pack
would be pulled to 80% DOD, while the others are not discharged at
all.) Even starting with a different pack each time it would be more
harmful to the batteries than discharging all of them 25%.
You need a bare minimum voltage to run the car at highway speeds,
somewhere between 96-120V. Each of your subpacks would need to be this
voltage. To get the same weight in lead you would be using a lot more
small batteries, which means more cost, more interconnects and generally
shorter range.
Deciding a subpack is dead is roughly the same problem as measuring the
overall DOD of a larger pack.
Now a small reserve pack might be an excellent idea... maybe even using
a primary battery like some of the jump start packs. Even a lightweight
group of AGM's could be used to stiffen up a tired pack enough for a
trip home.
In the end.. I think most people would rather pay for a longer range
pack, and better emeter or a AAA membership.
Mark
--- End Message ---
