EV Digest 4792
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Roland's alternator/inverter
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) RE: Cable Crimping Tools
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Ovonic's NiMH battery info needed
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Roland's alternator/inverter
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Roland's alternator/inverter
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Ovonic's NiMH battery info needed
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Science Project (long)
by "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The "other" Solectria Sunrise
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Thoughts/questions on getting an inverter built
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Industrial motors was: Re: Siemens EV Motors
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Thoughts/questions on getting an inverter built
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Thoughts/questions on getting an inverter built
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) An AC Inverter for EVs
by "Christopher Walter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) PFC20 acceptance voltage set point
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) TDM Motor / Northrop Grumman / Westinghouse
by "Christopher Walter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Cable Crimping Tools (solder mechanical strength)
by "stU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: The "other" Solectria Sunrise, an' Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Thoughts/questions on getting an inverter built
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Thoughts/questions on getting an inverter built
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Thoughts/questions on getting an inverter built
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: TDM Motor / Northrop Grumman / Westinghouse
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Science Project (long)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: My S-10 again - ABS
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Cable Crimping Tools, thoughts
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Cable Crimping Tools
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Crimp versus solder (was: Cable Crimping Tools)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Roland, could you please post some more details on your alternator, as
described in this post of yours:
"On this frame work, this is a space for a very large alternator, that they
used
on Semi's. Different models from 145 amp 12 - 15 VDC to a combination type
that also produces 120 VAC at 7000 watts through a DC-AC inverter package. "
-Some info like approximate dimensions, weight, model number and shaft size
would be very helpful. This sounds appealing as an all-in-one rotary dc/dc,
120 VAC inverter, and regen assembly. You also mentioned not using regen since
installing the Zilla. Reasons?
Thanks,
Jay Donnaway
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:50 AM 4/10/05 -0400, Dewey, Jody R wrote:
When in doubt use a Megger to test your connection.
Now *that* is a great way to confuse people. To most people "Megger" refers
to a high potential (insulation) tester, usually with a minimum resolution
of around 10,000 ohms. If you have access to a low-ohms meter (in some
circles, made by Megger, and in those circles not confused with a
high-potential tester) with a resolution of around 0.001 ohms you cam make
such a measurement meaningfully.
I myself think that
soldering a connection would be much better than crimping it. I agree that
it is harder to do but guaranteed to have a better end result.
When I first started putting large lugs on cables (20-odd years ago when
first doing welding equipment repairs) we had oxy but no crimper, so
terminals were soldered. After several desoldered themselves (heating from
inadequate connection/corrosion on the post) I investigated. Borrowed a
crimper and took some test cables I made up to a local college that had a
suitable meter. The crimping was a lower resistance than the soldered joint
(when made with clean cable).
When the correct size terminal for the wire is used and the correct sized
die in the crimper, you will get cold-welding of the copper of the cable to
the copper of the lug, giving lowest joint resistance possible in practical
terms.
If you want to try really hard you can silver-solder such connections - but
the insulation doesn't like it much. I have done it (the thing being
connected to was hot under normal operation) so the insulation on the wire
was replaced with fibreglass sleeving for the first 12" or so to get away
from the heat. As far as I know, the silver-soldered connection lasted no
longer than the crimped ones, and I suspect that it probably broke away
sooner from the hard points in the wire where the solder stopped.
When I went into business for myself, knowing that I would be doing welding
equipment repairs I went and bought a crimper that is adequate - around
$200 US equivalent. Didn't even contemplate soldering terminals.
Just my $0.02
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Does anyone happen to have an info about Ovonic's 13.2V NiMH
> battery? Mainly GM's charging/discharging requirements.
I'm presently resurrecting some that were in a Solectria Force. The
only info I was able to find online is from the Cobasys site, and is for
their "series 9500" cell:
Capacity (C/3): 85Ah (@25C to 1.0V/cell)
Float voltage: 1.43V/cell @ 25C
Temperature compensation: -2.5mV/deg C
Max charge current: 1C to 70% SOC
The Cobasys 'series 9500' 12V battery is 10 of these strapped together;
the batteries in the Force appear to be 11 of these cells strapped
together for a 13.2V block.
If you have the time, it appears that a safe way to charge these is just
to apply a lowish constant current. I used 4-5A for about 20-24hrs to
bring these from essentially 0V to something resembling a full state of
charge.
If Cobasys' literature is to be believed, upon overcharge the result is
only an increase in cell temperature proportional to the power being
applied and an increase in cell pressure, so using a suitably low
current (<C/10?) should be safe to apply until the cells are detected to
be warming noticably (indicating a full state of charge).
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland, could you please post some more details on your alternator, as
described in this post:
"On this frame work, this is a space for a very large alternator, that they
used
on Semi's. Different models from 145 amp 12 - 15 VDC to a combination type
that also produces 120 VAC at 7000 watts through a DC-AC inverter package. "
-Some info like approximate dimensions, weight, model number and shaft size
would be very helpful. This sounds appealing as an all-in-one rotary dc/dc,
120 VAC inverter, and regen assembly. You also mentioned not using regen since
installing the Zilla. Reasons?
Thanks,
Jay Donnaway
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jay,
This unit is a Delco 40-S1 Series Type 150 Alternator of 145 amp. 12 to 15 volt
adjustable Negative with inverter taps. Delco No. 1117152.
This model is equipped with a (field +), (field -) and (trio) terminals for
used with 120-volt, 60 HZ power inverter (such as manufactured by the Dynamote
Corporation)
Used a double industrial gang belt on a 3 inch pulley that is driven a 8 inch
pulley on a shaft drive that is couple with a Dodge spline flex coupler to the
pilot shaft of the motor.
The rpm that is needed to excited this unit is about 1000 RPM, so with a 8 inch
pulley on the shaft at 360 RPM is about 1000 RPM on the alternator.
There is a R Terminal on this alternator that goes to the built in regulator.
Connect this up to a 10 ohm 2 watt resistor and parallel with a 12 volt
indicator light and then to a 12 volt ignition on circuit. This turns on the
regulator on start up. Its lights up the indicator light showing that this
circuit is good when the ignition switch on. When the alternator is at the
excitation speed, than the indicator light will go off.
I used a 12 volt meter and amp meter going to the battery and 12 volt loads
and a 120 volt meter and amp meter going to the AC loads.
The 12 volt battery is a Trojan SC225 deep cycle type, which can handle the
charging of this unit. I run a tremendous amounted of 12 volt indicators and
controls that also could get up to over 50 amps.
The Dynamote inverter is design to used the 3 trio and field terminals to there
inverter where it produces a 120 VAC 60 HZ output, at the same time you can
used the 12 VDC.
The Dynamote Company makes two class of inverters, one that runs off the
Batteries or runs off the Alternator:
The Model A60-120 is a 7200 watts at 120 VAC that has a 100 AC amps Surge
Capacity with a 110 voltage input from the Model 1117152 Alternator trio and
field connections.
The Model B60-120 is a 7200 watts at 120 VAC that has a 100 AC amps Surge
Capacity with a 110 voltage input from 110 volts of batteries that would have
to be rated for 100 ampere-hour if you are going used 100 amp load.
I find that the alternator Model is better, because you are not drawing power
threw the motor from the main battery pack during coast down, but you are still
generating power down to 360 RPM.
The Source of Supply for the Dynamote:
Electronic Power House
1200 West Nickerson
Seattle WA 98199
1-800-426-2838
When I have this unit only loaded up to about 30 amps and also driving the A/C,
power steering, vacuum pumps, electric heating and hot water pumps, it will
give me a REGEN braking and will slow the EV going down a ICY hill!!!
The Zilla I have did not come with REGEN because it was not available at the
time. I already had this drive system, which works good.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Roland's alternator/inverter
Roland, could you please post some more details on your alternator, as
described in this post of yours:
"On this frame work, this is a space for a very large alternator, that they
used
on Semi's. Different models from 145 amp 12 - 15 VDC to a combination type
that also produces 120 VAC at 7000 watts through a DC-AC inverter package. "
-Some info like approximate dimensions, weight, model number and shaft size
would be very helpful. This sounds appealing as an all-in-one rotary dc/dc,
120 VAC inverter, and regen assembly. You also mentioned not using regen since
installing the Zilla. Reasons?
Thanks,
Jay Donnaway
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com<http://www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Roger,
I wonder if anyone has actual GM's documentation for the batteries.
Roger Stockton wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Does anyone happen to have an info about Ovonic's 13.2V NiMH
battery? Mainly GM's charging/discharging requirements.
I'm presently resurrecting some that were in a Solectria Force. The
only info I was able to find online is from the Cobasys site, and is for
their "series 9500" cell:
Capacity (C/3): 85Ah (@25C to 1.0V/cell)
Float voltage: 1.43V/cell @ 25C
Temperature compensation: -2.5mV/deg C
Max charge current: 1C to 70% SOC
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out the book "Electric Dreams" - a nice account of a NC school that
participated in this program (or one like it).
-Tim
> I work with an electric vehicle education program that accomplishes many
of
> the things you describe. The development of the EV Challenge program
began
> in 1993 with three high schools participating in the construction of
> electric vehicles. (snip)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David? and All,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I see ZAP got the "sloppy seconds" of Sunrise bodies off eBay - Jerry, did you
bid because you wanted the older molds? Seems you got the best one to start
with already!
The door molds for my version were in that batch and wanted them.
Though I can build them from scratch, it takes time and money to do so I was
hoping to buy it for them, then sell the body to recoup the money. Keeping it
out of Zap's hands was another as I just barely beat him on the first body and
figured he would bid on it.
He is just going to give Selectria grief over it I'd bet, using
their rep to con people. But if he doesn't have people to do the real work on
it, I don't see how such a person could ever finish such a project.
Even for someone like me with 20 yrs composite experience in low
number production it wil be very hard. And there is no way he can make it turn
key to sell other than a couple with state Assembled from Parts titles at a
great cost.
Wonder what Garry Starr will do with it...probably sink a lot of someone else's
money into it like has with everything else to do with ZAP.
Swindle people is the more likely result as he has already had so
many problems and his rating on e bay is rather bad. He is a blight on EV's.
Hopefully he will go away soon.
Jerry Dycus
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Theoretical idea for the future:
Might there be someone on this list who is capable of building a high
current inverter for use with an industrial air cooled AC motor?
Maybe the only thing holding back this item from being built is the
lack of funds?
What if I for example were to fund the first one to be built? How
much might it cost? $6,000? $7,000? Less?
Ideally, what I'd like to do with this inverter, is after the first
one is built, make the schematics openly available so this item could
be serviceable, modifiable, and be able to be improved on.
Also, I'd like to find some place that builds electronic items and get
a batch of them built and resell them at cost. AC for everyone!
Question is, what's the minimum order a place like this would require?
10? 20? 50?
Would there be enough people on this list to pay up front for one of
these impressive inverters to help with the costs of getting the first
batch built?
I'd hate to pay for ~50 of these and have them stockpiled in my garage
and it taking the rest of my life to get them sold and the money
invested in them to be payed off...
Or maybe there is a lurking off the shelf solution waiting to be found..?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Massey wrote:
>I can dig out the info of the inverter we found and
> let everyone know what it is if anyone wants.
I'd like to know more about this inverter.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pl set spec. I can offer some off the shelf inverters.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Wednesday, 5 October 2005 10:41 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Thoughts/questions on getting an inverter built
Theoretical idea for the future:
Might there be someone on this list who is capable of building a high
current inverter for use with an industrial air cooled AC motor?
Maybe the only thing holding back this item from being built is the
lack of funds?
What if I for example were to fund the first one to be built? How
much might it cost? $6,000? $7,000? Less?
Ideally, what I'd like to do with this inverter, is after the first
one is built, make the schematics openly available so this item could
be serviceable, modifiable, and be able to be improved on.
Also, I'd like to find some place that builds electronic items and get
a batch of them built and resell them at cost. AC for everyone!
Question is, what's the minimum order a place like this would require?
10? 20? 50?
Would there be enough people on this list to pay up front for one of
these impressive inverters to help with the costs of getting the first
batch built?
I'd hate to pay for ~50 of these and have them stockpiled in my garage
and it taking the rest of my life to get them sold and the money
invested in them to be payed off...
Or maybe there is a lurking off the shelf solution waiting to be
found..?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David wrote:
> Pl set spec. I can offer some off the shelf inverters.
Considering the price it's going to be, and the entire reason I want
one, at least Zilla like power. 300+ volts and 2,000 amps more or
less..
http://cafeelectric.com/products/price/index.html
-------
My thoughts and concerns about my EV project are this:
Let's say I have a 348 volt pack of AGM's, 2000amp Zilla, 13" Warp
motor. What's this vehicle going to run in the 1/4? Let's say it
runs 12's. Where to go from there? How to make it any faster? When
White Zombie reaches the limit of the current setup, what can be done
to get it any faster? And then what?
I feel like I don't have many options with DC and am at it's limits
before I even begin.
IDEALLY, I want a 10 second street car(considering the money involved
in the conversion costs..).
Is that even physically possible?
What are the possibilities(and limitations) with AC?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
During the day light hours, I design, build, and occasionally repair AC
motor inverters for 3ph induction motors and 3ph brushless dc
inverters/controllers for military applications.
An old acquaintance of mine, Chris Brune created similar experimental units
when he worked with me at Black&Decker. I don't know where Chris Brune has
gotten too these days.
I would be willing to entertain the idea of a project to build an inverter
for EV use. An initial attempt might be possible within about $5500 if all
of my time was volunteer. Hmm - not a great idea -- Let me think about this
some more.
Christopher Walter
Sent from my Motion Computing WiFi enabled Tablet PC
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been trying to get the acceptance voltage set and I have noticed
that this is not a firm point.
If the amperage is at 8 that the voltage is detected way earlier than if
I turn the current down to 2 amps, the limit light goes back off and it
will run another hour before it hits that point. I understand this just
to be the side effect of chargeing agaisnt a soft load? where the
voltage depends on the current. If I charge slower. will I get a better
charge?. Does this issue go away when I get my regulators?
At present I am manually monitoring the batteries that always fill first
and turning the amps down to 1.5 when it reaches 14.77. The pack is
getting really close to being in balance now.
ps why 8 amps only? Because I could't find an ammeter in fresno on a
saturday that read more than 5 amps or had less than 5 amp divisions
:-( This problem is solved. I ordered a ampmeter just for the charger
from evparts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor, All:
I am new to the list. I am very interested in the motor that both you and
Doug are describing.
My wife worked on a similar unit at University of MD on an SAE sponsored
program called FutureCar. This was an HEV that used the Northrop Grumman AC
unit.
Today, both my wife and I work at the plant where those motors were
originally designed and built. The electric car program at Northrop Grumman
was dismantled and sold to an outfit called SatCon located in Linthicum,
Maryland.
Do you have any photos of the motor? Do you have the drive unit? These
units were conservatively rated at 150 HP.
Regards,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 12:56 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Early Ford Ranger motor, was Re: We got the Sunrise !!!
Yes, TDM is correct name! I thought of it but closest I could
remember was "EDM". It didn't sound quite right, but closest
I could recall. Thanks for correction.
Doug Hartley wrote:
> Victor,
>
> Actually the first generation of Ford Electric Rangers were made by TDM
> (Transportation Design and Manufacturing) in Detroit for 1996, and used
> a Northrupp Grumman electric motor. This motor was cooled by expensive
> & exotic (at least to me) turbine oil. It was coupled to a custom made
> single speed gear reduction "transmission". I have one of these TDM
> motor/inverter/gear reduction assemblies in my garage, mounted on a
> rolling display stand. The motor was probably actually made by an
> associated company, such as Westinghouse, but I doubt it would be Seimens.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Doug
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 3:48 PM
> Subject: Re: We got the Sunrise !!!
>
>
>> There were few generations of Fords.
>> First ones put together by EDM (if I recall the name correctly)
>> used Siemens motors.
>>
>> Ford ordered them from Siemens to build for them, and
>> put their (ford) label on it.
>>
>> Later gen used Ballard's systems (still copy of
>> Siemens', but this is another story). Ford built
>> these vehicles, not EDM (I've inspected software for
>> EDM, and parameter set is little different
>> than standard Siemens' drive.
>>
>> I don't know about business arrangement between
>> Ford and Ballard. All I can see that the motors
>> installed in any generation of Rangers are Siemens
>> design ones. Ballard's inverters are different though.
>>
>> Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting- I have seen a Ford EV-Ranger Motor and
>>> Controller. And it has Ford emblems all over it. And
>>> Victor informed me they were Siemiens Motors and
>>> Controllers. Was Ballard buying Siemiens and selling
>>> it to Ford to put their Emblems on it?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Victor
>> '91 ACRX - something different
>>
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
http://www.engineersedge.com/solder_joint_design/solder_materials_calc.htm
I have never had a properly made solder joint pull apart.
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 3:41 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cable Crimping Tools
Eric Poulsen wrote:
> I think that most people would underestimate the amount of heat
> that would have to be put into that size lug/wire in order to get
> a proper solder joint.
I agree. This is especially difficult if you can't inspect the joint
(i.e. it's hidden inside a closed lug).
I solder large terminals with a solder pot. It brings up the wire and
terminal to soldering temperature very quickly, yet doesn't overheat
them or wick solder back up the wire.
Another point that is often missed. Solder is mechanically weak. To make
a good solder joint, you must first have a good, solid mechanical
connection. Wires are twisted together, or crimped into a terminal, and
THEN soldered. The solder provides the electrical connection only; not
the mechanical strength.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: The "other" Solectria Sunrise
> Hi David? and All,
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I see ZAP got the "sloppy seconds" of Sunrise bodies off eBay - Jerry, did
you
> bid because you wanted the older molds? Seems you got the best one to
start
> with already!
> Hi Jerry an' All;
I sorta let that one get by. Sigh! I was thinking of going a few hundred
for the second IF nobody pushed it higher, but we got Zapped on it, I guess?
Wanted the damn door moulds, but thereweren't any to bre had with this body.
I feel that making decent doors is gunna be a challange. Like the Citicar
doors that I never got decent in the first ones
>
> The door molds for my version were in that batch and wanted
them. Though I can build them from scratch, it takes time and money to do so
I was hoping to buy it for them, then sell the body to recoup the money.
Keeping it out of Zap's hands was another as I just barely beat him on the
first body and figured he would bid on it.
>
> He is just going to give Selectria grief over it I'd bet,
using their rep to con people. But if he doesn't have people to do the real
work on it, I don't see how such a person could ever finish such a project.
> As David Roden Said, we have a sorta sacred trust by James Worden to do a
great car. Anything less could break this kind and decent man's heart. He is
in our corner on this.
> Even for someone like me with 20 yrs composite experience in
low number production it wil be very hard. And there is no way he can make
it turn key to sell other than a couple with state Assembled from Parts
titles at a great cost.
>
>
>
>
> Wonder what Garry Starr will do with it...probably sink a lot of someone
else's
> money into it like has with everything else to do with ZAP.
>
> Swindle people is the more likely result as he has already had
so many problems and his rating on e bay is rather bad. He is a blight on
EV's. Hopefully he will go away soon.
>
> Jerry Dycus
>
> Well, we have a lot on, well, Jerry's plate for now. BTW Jerry are you
coming to CT to meet this body, haul it back to FLA? The Rabbit I got going,
stepped on the brake and a brake line broke, thew hardest one on thre damn
car to fix, under the rear swing arm, to access it you drop the chassis
bolts to let it down so you can undo it. With the torch was able to free up
the brake line tube ends, amazing as I usually bust those and haftas replace
half the lines in the car, for a simple repair. Parts come in tomorrow and
will have it back together in the AM. Will do some other STOMPS on it to
break anything else that is week in the system.By the time ya get here,
should have it roadworthy.
The other moul;ds in MA may be worth yur trouble? the "Chassis" ones
that we can have if we want. I checked one U hall place they wanted 3 grand
for a OW to Fla!! Christ! You could BUY an old truck for less than that and
sell it if ya got there!Moulds inside, body on the trailer. It is getting to
be an expensive proposition just the transportation over great distances.
Folks have chimed in with checks for the body, over half the 5600. bux
has come in. Many thanks, guys! I don't feel as damn ALONE struggling with
flats at 3 am on my kid's crappy rig!But 100 bux worth of Diseasel fuel
later it was cheeper than a U haul!I hate to ask him again to use it after
all it is, was, an old outfit, and I was wearing things out going hundreds
of hiway miles. I thought of a second mould run with a rented trailer and,
my old Ford F-150 van, it doesn't owe me anything ,so if it craps out, cost
of doing biz, I would figure.It has been faithful with 3000 lbs of Led acid
batteries on it's back! A few years ago.
>
> Other Stuff;Or Ampabout East. Nick Carter and his wife came East to check
out the Solectria Force they bought in CT. They flew into Hartford, last
night, picked them up for a overnite stay. Fun meeting one of the Calif.
Guyz we talked about EV's and just Life in general, til the early hours of
the morning. Morning arrived all to soon, off to meet the Force, a nice
clean one with Nicads! Was one of the Southington CT fleet til the charger
crapped out. Was parked, batteries starved to death, well, Nicads don't DO
that, they just went to sleep, awaiting a charge, to come back to life. I
felt that Nick had a winner there as he got a complete car , a very drivable
car. As it had no tags we didn't venture out on the public hiway, but the
driveway was long enough to get a bit of regen, on stopping. Gees! If
Solectria went back to Forcing again they could sell enough to get the price
down so EVerybody could afford them. James said that 5 years ago they
couldn't GIVE them away, but that was the cheep gas era, well, hell, not
many folks wanna pay 25k for a Geo Metro, short of perpetual motion, a
Tilley Mobile? But nowadaze ANY clean working EV coulf find loving homes. We
know that, Forces, like Rav-4's will command a better price as gas goes up.
I always thought a cheepo conversion car would sell, depending on getting
cheap gliders and volume quantities on components. Buy we may get beyond
that with purpose built Sunrises and Freedom EV's After all, converting a
gas rig is an excersize in masocism, anyhow, like trying to get submarines
,to or pigs, to fly. Oh it sorta has to do, as I got my Rabbit to do my
commute, for 6 years. Saved a hellova lot of gas, and tons of emmissions,
sorta what it's all about, anyhow. EV-1 and EV pluses Thinks and Rav 4 s
prove my point. But I'm preaching to the choir here, anyhow<g>!
Back to the story, Nick paid the guy for the car, called the truckin'
outfit to get his new baby to CA, then off to the train. Yes! You heard
right, they trained up to VT , Burlington, a nice fall foliage flight. to
their son's place.Train came ,in I knew all the crew guys'" When ya coming
back?'Saw ya in the paper," like Ryan, my 15 seconds of fame! I'm sorry
youse guys couldn't have stayed a bit longer, see a bit of the Least coast.
Good time was had by all;
Seeya
Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! for Good
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Might there be someone on this list who is capable of building a high
> current inverter for use with an industrial air cooled AC motor?
Richard Valentine published the design for such an inverter in his book,
"Motor Control Electronics Handbook", ISBN 0-07-066810.
> What if I for example were to fund the first one to be built? How
> much might it cost? $6,000? $7,000? Less?
That was probably about what his cost, back around 1998. I would guess
you could do better today, in part due to better parts and in part by
learning from his design.
> Ideally, what I'd like to do with this inverter, is after the first
> one is built, make the schematics openly available so this item could
> be serviceable, modifiable, and be able to be improved on.
If I were to tackle such a project, I'd start with a lower-horsepower
industrial drive; they are made in large quantities and so relatively
inexpensive. Thoroughly reverse-engineer it, to learn how it works so I
could modify the programming for other motors. Then use its "brains" to
drive a larger set of IGBTs for an EV drive.
> Question is, what's the minimum order a place like this would require?
> 10? 20? 50?
It's just a matter of cost. The more you make, the lower the price. No
magic "breakpoints".
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's not really an AC vs. DC debate, it is a battery debate.
The most power you can pull from Optimas or Orbitals is about 10 kW
per battery (about 0.5 kW/kg of battery). Going from DC to AC may
raise your efficiency and area under the torque curve a bit, but not
much. The batteries are the weak link. Battery pack would be about
$4k.
Spending $20k to $100k for exotic batteries nets you batteries with
over 1 kW/kg. So for the same weight of batteries you now have twice
the power. The batteries are more easily damaged and need expensive
cell-by-cell battery management.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> Let's say I have a 348 volt pack of AGM's, 2000amp Zilla, 13" Warp
> motor. What's this vehicle going to run in the 1/4? Let's say it
> runs 12's. Where to go from there? How to make it any faster?
> When
> White Zombie reaches the limit of the current setup, what can be
> done
> to get it any faster? And then what?
>
> I feel like I don't have many options with DC and am at it's limits
> before I even begin.
>
> IDEALLY, I want a 10 second street car(considering the money
> involved
> in the conversion costs..).
> ...
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
> It's not really an AC vs. DC debate
I saw it like this:
DC is sort of like a diesel motor. Gives you all it's got, then falls
on it's face not too many rpm into it.
10 or 15 thousand rpm AC is like a 1+ liter sport bike or a top fuel
car. Part of the reason each of those is so fast is because they wrap
the gears out so long and so far.
Think about if you and I were in separate cars of the same models and
weight. The only difference being that my motor goes to 10,000 rpm
and yours only to 5,000 rpm. You hit 5 grand and are shifting into
second and I'm still wrapping out that low gear. I'm getting double
the pull from each gear you are and also think about how fast things
are turning at 10,000rpm vs's 5,000rpm..
Who's going to win this imaginary race?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris,
I will send a picture that I have of my motor/Inverter-electronics/gear
reduction unit directly to your email address.
When you ask "Do you have the drive unit?", do you mean the 3-phase inverter
electronics and DC-DC converter unit that sits on top of the motor? If so,
yes, I have that and enough other parts from the TDM Electric Ford Ranger,
including the drive shaft and radiator & cooling oil, to be able to convert
a Ford Ranger - it should just about "drop-in" (or convert another
rear-wheel drive vehicle with suitable support mounts adapting).
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Walter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 10:00 PM
Subject: TDM Motor / Northrop Grumman / Westinghouse
Victor, All:
I am new to the list. I am very interested in the motor that both you and
Doug are describing.
My wife worked on a similar unit at University of MD on an SAE sponsored
program called FutureCar. This was an HEV that used the Northrop Grumman
AC
unit.
Today, both my wife and I work at the plant where those motors were
originally designed and built. The electric car program at Northrop
Grumman
was dismantled and sold to an outfit called SatCon located in Linthicum,
Maryland.
Do you have any photos of the motor? Do you have the drive unit? These
units were conservatively rated at 150 HP.
Regards,
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Goodwin wrote:
> For more information about the national JSS program and curriculum resources
> go to:
>
> www.nrel.gov/education/student/natjss.html
This page appears to be broken, does it exist somewhere else??
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark and others:
I am zooming in on the brake booster. This is why: My gast vaccum pump is
adjusted to 20mmHg (18 should be enough) and has a vacuum container. The
pump needs about 15 to 20 secs to get the vaccum stabilized and ONE, just
ONE hit on the brakes and vaccum goes all the way down to 5 mmHg with all
the 'power' boosting gone. The booster should keep enough vaccum for two
or three brakes but this is not happening. Only one brake action and all
the vaccum is literally used up.
Any other suggestions?
Michaela
> Michaela Merz wrote:
>
>>My next topic is breaks / ABS. The ABS system is disconnected but the
>>break lines still run through it. However, the breaks don't respond as
>>good as on another S-10 with an ICE I have, also with a disconnected ABS
>>system.
>>
>>
>
> I would do a side by side comparison (try stopping from 30 MPH in a
> parking lot and measuring the distance) with the trucks loaded to
> identical weights. If there is still a major difference check the brake
> systems.
>
> My guesses:
> 1. Different brake systems, even if they are both S10's with ABS, they
> might be different model years, or have different brake system. Often
> manufacturers put better brakes on vehicles with larger engines, or
> inexpensive brakes on vehicles that are sold into fleet duty.
>
> 2. One has an aftermarket Master cylinder installed with the wrong bore
> size. (Pretty common problem.. in fact some shady brakes places will
> replace master cylinders with different bore to change the brake feel.)
>
> 3. Different pads... a good quality set of pads can have marked
> difference on stopping power. Especially if mated to the wrong roters..
> or is they have gotton grease contamination.
>
> 4. Air in the lines... Even thought you say you don't, you probably do.
> ABS systems especially can be a PITA to bleed. I have never found a
> bleeding system that works perfectly. The vacuum bleeders and "one-man"
> bleed kits are nearly useless. The best system I've come up with so far
> is about 20 feet of clean clear plastic tubing run from the brake bleed
> fitting back to the master cylinder tank. Pump the brakes to circulate
> the fluid from wheels back to master cylinder and around a couple
> times.. most of the air will get carried along and bubble out in the
> master cylinder. It takes a long while, but works well. Do all four
> wheels and keep the master cylinder full while charging the tubing for
> the first time.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: Cable Crimping Tools
> A friend of mine, who is a jack of all trades, mentioned another technique
he has good resutls with. Not sure if anyone else has tried this. He heats
up a pool of solder inside the lug and then pushes the cable ito the hot
solder. The cable has been fluxed, but I don't think he tins it first. Says
it works pretty good. I would imagine you'd want to heat the cable up first
so you don't get a cold solder joint. Is this a neat trick or recipe for
disaster?
>
> Dave Cover
> Hi Dave an' All;
Works just fine for me! As Neon John points out, it takes a bit of
practice, to get it right. An athetlene torch works best, turned down to a
mild flame. The nice single tank plumbers' out fits would be perfect. I
pool the solder in the lug, dip the fluxed cable end in slowly or you will
push all the solder out of the lug! when its down and comfy, fill in any
gaps with solder wire, til it tops out. A wipe with a wet washcloth will
clean everything up nicely, like the flux goop that oozes out, You cant
dally or the solder will wick up the cable!! Never had a post or cable
failure in years. I go around and feel the conections early on to check for
crappy ones. Have had a few that get hot at 300-400 amps, just heat up and
do over. End of problem!
Seeya
Bob
> Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Cable Crimping Tools
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:16:17 -0500
>
> John Luck Home asked:
> > Why does everyone crimp these connectors instead of tinning the fine
They don't know better<g>!!
> > stranded welding cable and soldering them into closed end ring
connectors.
> > Isn't this going to give better contact area from cable to lug?
Yup ! You Bet!
>
> A perfect soldered connection is just as good as a perfect crimped
> connection. However, soldering takes more skill, especially for large
> connections. So crimping is more likely to produce a good connection when
> done by amateurs.
> --
> Lee Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4 Oct 2005 at 7:48, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> I think an
> oxy/acet torch would work well, with a small tip.
I've done this with so-so success using a propane torch. It's the dickens
to avoid wicking solder up the wire.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We have this thread about once every year. <sigh>
Several years ago I tested crimped connections versus crimped and soldered
connections in the superconductivity lab at NIST. I put 1000 amps though a
pair of test cables with terminals on either end. One cable had terminals
that were crimped and soldered, the other cable had just crimped terminals.
There was no difference in resistance.
When you are measuring such low resistances, the placement of the voltage
taps becomes the problem. Small changes in the tap locations make large
changes in the voltage measured. Thus, direct measurement of resistance is
pretty much useless.
What I did instead was measure the temperature rise in several parts of
the wire while passing 1000 amps though the cable. There was no difference
in the temperature behavior of each of the cables. Thus, there was no
difference in resistance.
The Navy tests connections by the amount of force it takes to pull out the
wire. They say it should take at least 70% of the breaking strength of the
wire to pull it out of the terminal.
The Navy studies showed that a properly crimped connection was better than
a crimped and soldered connection in high-vibration environments (like a
car, for example.) This is because there is a stress concentration at the
point where the solder stops. This causes the wire to break at that point.
The crimped connection does not have a sharp stress concentration point.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
