EV Digest 4794
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Crimp versus solder (was: Cable Crimping Tools)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Thoughts/questions on getting an inverter built
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: My S-10 again - ABS
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Cable Crimping Tools
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: The "other" Solectria Sunrise, an' Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Cable Crimping Tools, thoughts
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Crimp versus solder (was: Cable Crimping Tools)
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Cable Crimping Tools
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Crimp versus solder (was: Cable Crimping Tools)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ovonic's NiMH battery info needed
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Cable Crimping Tools
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV audio
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Cable Crimping Tools
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Hammer Crimper
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) OT: Watch yourself
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV audio
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:An_AC_Inverter_for_EVs?=
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: My S-10 again - ABS
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) EV kit car
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Measuring the current -- Was: First drive impressions
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Cable Crimping Tools
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
What will happen is we, the EV builders and designers, do not use PROPER
approved established building and safety procedures that is already outline,
that more restrictions and wiring methods shall be place on the EV.
We now have a Electric Vehicle NEC Article 625 that we did not have before.
Everytime that some one has a accident, fire, explosion, there is a new article
added.
For example:
All cables and wires in a EV shall be type and voltage rating design for that
circuit. They SHALL be mark EV, EVJ, EVE, EVJE, EVT OR EVJT.
All Connections of conductor SHALL be made by means of pressure connections,
including SOLDER LUGS. Soldering of connections SHALL first be mechanically
and electrically secure without solder first and then solder.
Here one that we did not have before, until someone screw up:
A electric vehicle shall not be used as standby emergency power.
The overall length of a cable SHALL not exceed 25 feet.
The receptacle and supply equipment SHALL have a interlock that de-energizes
the electric vehicle connections.
If loss of primary power while the EV is plug in. a means SHALL be provided, so
the EV cannot be back fed from the electric vehicle to the premises wiring
system.
This NEC and National Fire Protection Association Article is getting longer
every year. When we applied for a license for a EV you built, we will end up
with not only a standard vehicle inspection, but a inspection by a electrical
inspection and another inspection by a engineer that in this field.
We will end up in submitting plans and blueprints for approval for building a
EV. You may not be able to do some of the work, only by a approved license
technician.
Well, when I built my EV, I did have it inspected by a standard vehicle
inspector, was than referred to the State Electrical Board, that sent out a
electrical engineer to inspect my vehicle.
Many of the NEC requirements was not established yet, but I went through all
the safety items, as storage of ventilation batteries, clearances, voltage
separations of different classes of conductors, water tight enclosures,
conduits and explosion proofing.
Of course I knew these guys and they want to see this EV. This what all EV'ers
are all going to end up doing.
There are already some restrictions and requirements for manufacturer built
equipment for EV's, that SHALL conform and be label as being in conformance
with all safety items lay out for the equipment.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Neon John<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: Crimp versus solder (was: Cable Crimping Tools)
On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 23:41:18 -0600, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>We have this thread about once every year. <sigh>
> The Navy studies showed that a properly crimped connection was better than
>a crimped and soldered connection in high-vibration environments (like a
>car, for example.) This is because there is a stress concentration at the
>point where the solder stops. This causes the wire to break at that point.
>The crimped connection does not have a sharp stress concentration point.
*sigh*
The key word is, of course, "proper". I wonder how many DIY'ers have
the proper crimp tools compared to how many have propane torches and
solder? I wonder how a hammer-crimped lug would compare to a soldered
one? Hex crimped vs soldered? I wonder how many decades if ever, it
would take for a hunk of welding cable to break from vibration in a
street-going electric car?
While not having been in the position to waste taxpayers' money on
government projects at NIST, I HAVE done a little testing with a press
and spring scale. I find that the eye usually pulls out before
anything else and that the lug is almost always destroyed in the
process of pulling apart a soldered joint.
I further find that a hammer-crimped lug generally pulls off without
too much effort. Frankly, of academic interest only, since I doubt
many people are going to use traction wiring as stressed elements.
My recommendation remains for *home* constructors is to solder the
lugs whenever possible. Soldering can be done with tools most people
already have at hand, propane torches, solder, flux, etc. No need to
spend lots of money on a set of metal displacement crimpers.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com<http://www.johngsbbq.com/>
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:37 PM 10/4/2005, you wrote:
David Dymaxion wrote:
> It's not really an AC vs. DC debate
I saw it like this:
DC is sort of like a diesel motor. Gives you all it's got, then falls
on it's face not too many rpm into it.
10 or 15 thousand rpm AC is like a 1+ liter sport bike or a top fuel
car. Part of the reason each of those is so fast is because they wrap
the gears out so long and so far.
Think about if you and I were in separate cars of the same models and
weight. The only difference being that my motor goes to 10,000 rpm
and yours only to 5,000 rpm. You hit 5 grand and are shifting into
second and I'm still wrapping out that low gear. I'm getting double
the pull from each gear you are and also think about how fast things
are turning at 10,000rpm vs's 5,000rpm..
Who's going to win this imaginary race?
The high RPM limit is only part of the problem. What you need to compare
is the power curve from 0 RPM to max RPM. And that depends as much on the
batteries and controller as on the motor.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James:
You've got me there :) Inches of course :)
>>Any other suggestions?
>
> I hope that you mean 20 inches of mercury, not 20mm (3/4") of mercury? If
> you do only have 20mmHg then it'd be surprising you get any vacuum assist
> at all!
>
> James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can do a voltage/ampere shunt test of the battery connections while the
battery charger is charging the batteries.
On the same link or conductor that is connecting two batteries together,
connect the test leads first to only the lead post of each battery. It will
read something like 0.001 Ampere if its clean and torque to the proper values.
If latter you read something like 0.01 Ampere, than the resistance has increase
in that terminal.
In installing new batteries and links, I do this test during the installation
after the first 5 miles of driving to see if there is any shrink back in the
contacts. It is quicker than checking every connection with a torque wrench.
I first connect the test leads to the post, and than torque the connection
until it reads the same as the others.
Be careful when you do this. I work in high voltage systems all my life and I
applied all the safety items when working with a battery charger on. Install
rubber blankets or mats drape over the batteries and car frame which is
approved for this voltage, used rubber gloves and insulated tools. I slip a
insulated cover over the torque wrench handle which is lock to the torque you
need.
If I do a quick test with the volt meter only, I just drape on a fender cover,
so I do not scratch the car.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Evan Tuer<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: Cable Crimping Tools
On 10/5/05, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> If you are testing a metal to metal connection and get resistance that is
> not good.
True.
> We use them to test static wics and other conductors all the time
> in the military. You crank em up and make sure that they are reading zero
> ohms.
That still tells you absolutely nothing about the quality of the
connection, other than it's made or not. We are taking about 10ths or
100ths of an Ohm. An insulation tester can't resolve this, and it's
just not the right tool for the job. In fact, there probably isn't a
right tool for the job (see Bill Dube's post), which is why there's so
much debate about what is the best method.
At the end of the day it comes down to mechanical and environmental
factors *in a given application* rather than simply the resistance of
the connection when you first make it, even if you can measure that.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 6:59 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cable Crimping Tools
>
>
> The component in this case is a solid, metal to metal connection.
> Please explain how testing it at 500V and 1 amp will give any "idea"
> of the connection whatsoever :)
>
>
> On 10/5/05, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> > The megger tests insulation yes but it also tests connections at very high
> > voltages and a higher level of current than a regular meter can do. Most
> > meters top out at 9v so it is possible for a component to break down at a
> > higher voltage and you would not know it with a regular meter. The
> megger's
> > voltage is 500 volts and usually close to 1 amp (depending on how fast you
> > crank it) so you can get a lot better idea of the connection.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 7:07 AM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Cable Crimping Tools
> >
> >
> > A "Megger" generally refers to an insulation resistance tester. It
> > wouldn't be any use in determining the difference between a crimped
> > and a soldered connection.
> >
> >
> > On 10/4/05, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> > > When in doubt use a Megger to test your connection. I myself think that
> > > soldering a connection would be much better than crimping it. I agree
> > that
> > > it is harder to do but guaranteed to have a better end result.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 6:16 PM
> > > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > Subject: Re: Cable Crimping Tools
> > >
> > >
> > > John Luck Home asked:
> > > > Why does everyone crimp these connectors instead of tinning the fine
> > > > stranded welding cable and soldering them into closed end ring
> > connectors.
> > > > Isn't this going to give better contact area from cable to lug?
> > >
> > > A perfect soldered connection is just as good as a perfect crimped
> > > connection. However, soldering takes more skill, especially for large
> > > connections. So crimping is more likely to produce a good connection
> when
> > > done by amateurs.
> > > --
> > > Lee Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Today 'm getting a longer tongue put on my trailer for the MC to
pull up to your place. I'm watching the weather and as soon as a good 3 day
stretch come thru, I'll be on my way, probably Friday or so, should take me
a little over 3 days so probably get there Sun, Mon if the weather holds.
Riding 1200 miles on a MC is no fun if it's rainy or snowing. Still hotter
than hell here.
>
Hi Jerry;
Great timing, am gunna be gone tp PA for the weakend, to the East Broad
Top Narrow gage RR Steam and Fall foliage spactacular, with a buncha other
Trolley Museum guyz. EVery year they do THEIR pilgrimage, but I always had
to work, that weakend, but this year I had no excuse. This should be fun,
google East Broad Top RR to see what it's all about. There is a cool Trolley
Museum there too, so I won't be far from DC Amps. Any Listers in Central PA
Come on up! Seeya there!
OK back on topic!
>
>
>
>
> >
> Cool, thanks for the Rabbit as it will be a great low cost way to
deliver, pick up the Sunrise body, ect and deliver the Freedom EV's. The
cool thing is I'll be able to run on Used Veg oil most of the time and it
gets 50mpg.
> The Rabbit has been always faithful, It knows that I saved it's life at
the junkyard, 6 years ago. I have treated it kindly, repairing what it has
asked me to, never stranding me, or broke in the driveway, like the brakes,
the other day. It's an 81, 4 door 5 speed( YEAH!) Shifter is kinda funky, if
ya are handy at adjusting those. It's a pain in the ass to with that crude
spline on the shift shaft underneith, setup where if yur a tad off, on the
spline it messes everything up. Tony Ascrizzi is a master at these, but
he's in MA right now, so were on our own!Every time Tony borrowed any of my
rigs they would come back fined tooned!
> I'll have to drive it easy but I do anyway. And all the towing
loads will be light.
>
good thing as a Rabbit is no fireball for towing<g>! I DID, used to tow a
17 foot outbored boat around with my last diseasel job, though!
>
>
> The other molds in MA may be worth yur trouble? the "Chassis" ones
> that we can have if we want.
>
>
>
> Yes as at least the bottom half can not only save a couple
grand building it, it may be able to fit the Freedom EV as it's forward part
of it's chassis and use the same suspension, other parts saving much time on
it. And later as the basis for a Mini van/SUV/pickup EV's. These were
always to be part of the Freedom EV line up anyway so a nice start on them
too. They could be sold as EV chassis for other to put different bodies on
like kit car, ect.
>
> 99% of luck is knowing, being ready to grab it when it
comes.
> I sorta felt that way. We could Prius up to MA to look at it. Hate to see
them saw it up to throw in the Dumpster.
>
> It is getting to
> be an expensive proposition just the transportation over great distances.
>
>
> Now you know why I'll MC the trailer up there !! I would have
flown otherwise. After I get back here, I'll buy a larger trailer to come
back up to pick up the other mold, MC, ect. Trailers here are under $200 to
buy so much cheaper than renting. Could even build a custom one fairly easy,
cheap.
> Guess the Rabbit could do two flights?? I'll get the moulds to CT for ya,
then, as I'll figure out how to get them to CT with my Fraud van, trailer.
>
>
>
>
>
> Folks have chimed in with checks for the body, over half the 5600. bux
> has come in. Many thanks, guys!
>
>
>
> > I have to come up with a better name. maybe Freedom-4
EV for 4 wheels, 4 seats, a take off of Doug's suggestion.. Any other
ideas?
> OK Guyz, ball's in yur court on this one! Names? Anyone.
> Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: Cable Crimping Tools, thoughts
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > ... An athetlene torch works best ...
>
> Is that like an Olympic torch?
> Yeah! when ya fire it up with too much athetlene on and not enough
oxygen<g>!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Before everyone gets all wound up, the NEC Article 625 is titled "Electric
Vehicle Charging System", and 625.1 Scope states "The provisions of this
article cover the electrical conductors and equipment external to an
electric vehicle that connect an electric vehicle to a supply of electricity
by conductive or inductive means, and the installation of equipment and
devices related to electric vehicle charging" The wiring in/on the vehicle
is not covered yet.
Also Article 90.2(B)(1) lists scope NOT covered by the code and includes
"automotive vehicles other than mobile homes and recreational vehicles".
The NEC is only revised every 3 years so only changes that often.
So at least so far the only "Code" worries are the charging equipment we
mount at home or work.
respectfully,
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: Crimp versus solder (was: Cable Crimping Tools)
> What will happen is we, the EV builders and designers, do not use PROPER
approved established building and safety procedures that is already outline,
that more restrictions and wiring methods shall be place on the EV.
>
> We now have a Electric Vehicle NEC Article 625 that we did not have
before. Everytime that some one has a accident, fire, explosion, there is a
new article added.
>
> For example:
>
> All cables and wires in a EV shall be type and voltage rating design for
that circuit. They SHALL be mark EV, EVJ, EVE, EVJE, EVT OR EVJT.
>
> All Connections of conductor SHALL be made by means of pressure
connections, including SOLDER LUGS. Soldering of connections SHALL first be
mechanically and electrically secure without solder first and then solder.
>
> Here one that we did not have before, until someone screw up:
>
> A electric vehicle shall not be used as standby emergency power.
>
> The overall length of a cable SHALL not exceed 25 feet.
>
> The receptacle and supply equipment SHALL have a interlock that
de-energizes the electric vehicle connections.
>
> If loss of primary power while the EV is plug in. a means SHALL be
provided, so the EV cannot be back fed from the electric vehicle to the
premises wiring system.
>
> This NEC and National Fire Protection Association Article is getting
longer every year. When we applied for a license for a EV you built, we
will end up with not only a standard vehicle inspection, but a inspection by
a electrical inspection and another inspection by a engineer that in this
field.
>
> We will end up in submitting plans and blueprints for approval for
building a EV. You may not be able to do some of the work, only by a
approved license technician.
>
> Well, when I built my EV, I did have it inspected by a standard vehicle
inspector, was than referred to the State Electrical Board, that sent out a
electrical engineer to inspect my vehicle.
>
> Many of the NEC requirements was not established yet, but I went through
all the safety items, as storage of ventilation batteries, clearances,
voltage separations of different classes of conductors, water tight
enclosures, conduits and explosion proofing.
>
> Of course I knew these guys and they want to see this EV. This what all
EV'ers are all going to end up doing.
>
> There are already some restrictions and requirements for manufacturer
built equipment for EV's, that SHALL conform and be label as being in
conformance with all safety items lay out for the equipment.
>
> Roland
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Neon John<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:11 AM
> Subject: Re: Crimp versus solder (was: Cable Crimping Tools)
>
>
> On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 23:41:18 -0600,
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> >We have this thread about once every year. <sigh>
>
> > The Navy studies showed that a properly crimped connection was better
than
> >a crimped and soldered connection in high-vibration environments (like
a
> >car, for example.) This is because there is a stress concentration at
the
> >point where the solder stops. This causes the wire to break at that
point.
> >The crimped connection does not have a sharp stress concentration
point.
>
> *sigh*
>
> The key word is, of course, "proper". I wonder how many DIY'ers have
> the proper crimp tools compared to how many have propane torches and
> solder? I wonder how a hammer-crimped lug would compare to a soldered
> one? Hex crimped vs soldered? I wonder how many decades if ever, it
> would take for a hunk of welding cable to break from vibration in a
> street-going electric car?
>
> While not having been in the position to waste taxpayers' money on
> government projects at NIST, I HAVE done a little testing with a press
> and spring scale. I find that the eye usually pulls out before
> anything else and that the lug is almost always destroyed in the
> process of pulling apart a soldered joint.
>
> I further find that a hammer-crimped lug generally pulls off without
> too much effort. Frankly, of academic interest only, since I doubt
> many people are going to use traction wiring as stressed elements.
>
> My recommendation remains for *home* constructors is to solder the
> lugs whenever possible. Soldering can be done with tools most people
> already have at hand, propane torches, solder, flux, etc. No need to
> spend lots of money on a set of metal displacement crimpers.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com<http://www.johngsbbq.com/>
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: Cable Crimping Tools
Hi All; (snip) a bit
> I use a 100W Weller iron, which cost about 30 GBP.
> Wow! Now heres a man with time on his hands!! It would take years, or at
least hours with a 100 watt iron, I'm sure that was a misprint!? Hell, I
don't think a stock Burnz-o-matic gets hot enough, with out you starving to
death or dying of old age waiting to get the damn terminal HOT enough for
solder to flow.
This solder-crimp thing goes on........nobody's wrong in their methods,
it's the tools you have, and how ya use them, for best results.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Oct 2005 at 2:11, Neon John wrote:
> I wonder how a hammer-crimped lug would compare to a soldered
> one?
My lug connections have improved greatly since I got my hammer crimper and
stopped soldering. <g>
Seriously, I'm not a complete neophyte on soldering; I've been doing
electrical, electronic, and plumbing soldering for 40 years. In my early
years of EV work I did what I think was a reasonably decent job on several
lugs by inserting the wire, mashing the lug on the garage floor with a big
hammer, then soldering with a propane torch. I admit though that I ruined
several lugs by wicking too much solder up into the wire. Also keep in mind
that my car had a 400 amp Curtis controller, so they weren't too seriously
stressed.
I am much happier with the connections I get now. I think the secret to
successful use of a hammer crimper is a HEAVY hammer. You can't whack it
with a cheap claw hammer and expect good results. You need at least a 3-
pounder.
> While not having been in the position to waste taxpayers' money on
> government projects at NIST ...
This is a cheap shot and I think you owe Bill Dube' an apology.
Lose the attitude or get off the EV list.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The only Ovonic/Cobasys BEV NiMH battery I'm aware of in current production
is the following, but it's 12V, not 13.2V, and has a 85Ah capacity (@ C/3):
http://www.cobasys.com/pdf/transportation/Series9500/Series_9500_Brochure.html
Charles
On Tuesday, October 04, 2005 5:30 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Listers,
Does anyone happen to have an info about Ovonic's 13.2V NiMH battery?
Mainly GM's charging/discharging requirements.
That's the battery used in EV1 and some S10.
Thank you in advance,
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10/5/05, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> > I use a 100W Weller iron, which cost about 30 GBP.
> > Wow! Now heres a man with time on his hands!! It would take years, or at
> least hours with a 100 watt iron, I'm sure that was a misprint!? Hell, I
> don't think a stock Burnz-o-matic gets hot enough, with out you starving to
> death or dying of old age waiting to get the damn terminal HOT enough for
> solder to flow.
Hmm, takes about 10-20 seconds to tin the cable? Although recently,
I'm probably using thinner cables than most people - 25mm^2 maximum
> This solder-crimp thing goes on........nobody's wrong in their methods,
> it's the tools you have, and how ya use them, for best results.
Yes!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Evan, thanks for the post and the link.
Evan Tuer wrote:
I thought this amplifier might be interesting to anyone who wants to
implement a good sound system in an EV.
Though for $30 it's a very interesting product, its use in an EV to help
build a sound system, would be extremely limited due to its 9w per 4 ohm
channel capabilities. If one uses an iPod or some other form of digital
storage medium like a portable MP3 player (arghh), this could indeed,
take the low level output from a small portable device and drive a pair
of speakers in an EV. You'd still need a more powerful amp to drive a
subwoofer to get any serious bass. In a minimalist type EV however, like
a scooter or light weight three wheeler such as a Gizmo, this little amp
would be just the ticket...but that would be the full extent of its
usefulness.
Normal car audio systems suffer from the same disease as the rest of
the components on an ICE - they're hot, heavy and inefficient. Big
heatsinks and high current demand from the 12V system. And they're
expensive!
All true, but these same components make real power at incredibly low
distortion, something that's needed to produce clear, vibrant, sound in
an automobile. To get deep sub-bass from a subwoofer, you need at least
75 watts of power, preferably 100+ watts, and you really need at least
25W rms per ch. for clear, crisp full range audio from a set front
speakers to overcome road and wind noise in a car.
An amplifier built with this chip, and driving efficient speakers
could be more suitable for an EV, IMHO :)
True only 'if' you started out with an audio source unit that was a
headphone driving type such as the aforementioned iPod or MP3 player.
Most, however, prefer having an in-dash head unit, such as an AM/FM/CD
or an AM/FM/MP3/CD type. These already have built in 4 channel amps that
while still on the low power side of things, make a real 15-19 watts per
channel. This little 9w per ch. amp would not serve any function at all
if one wants the look, finish, feel, and convenience of a built in head
unit.
The idea of having a more efficient amplifier is a good one. Class T
amps are already a reality in car audio, though not at the insanely
cheap price of $30. Xtant has a true 100 W rms mono class T amp that
makes this level of power into a 4 ohm load...give it a 2 ohm load and
it doubles to 200W for making powerful bass through a pair of subs. The
amp is about $250 though, and, you need at least three of them to get
right and left sound stage channels plus the third mono sub channel.
They sip 12V power while outputting low distortion, high current audio.
On the other hand, though indeed inefficient at around 50%, a car audio
system capable of blurring one's rear view mirror based on regular class
AB car amps only uses noticeable power at very high levels, and, that
power is not continuous, rather, it fluctuates with the music so that
the average power consumed isn't all that high. I don't notice any
appreciable difference in range per charge in Blue Meanie if I drive it
with the tunes off, or the tunes on and cranked up. Yes, there will be a
difference, but it's certainly not worth giving up 300W rms driving four
JL Audio subs and the MB Quart sound stage array, for just 18 total
watts driving two speakers with no sub. Besides, I need enough audio
power to overcome the tire squealing :-)
See Ya...John Wayland
Blue Meanie, the world's first competition audio electric car
(Car Audio and Electronics magazine, March '95)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, my theory is that the acetylene is so much hotter than the
propane, you spend less time spreading heat where you don't need it.
But I'm probably waaaay off.
Has anyone tried using one of those anti-wire-wicking things that clamp
around the wire? Essentially a heat sink with a wire-sized hole in it ...
David Roden wrote:
On 4 Oct 2005 at 7:48, Eric Poulsen wrote:
I think an
oxy/acet torch would work well, with a small tip.
I've done this with so-so success using a propane torch. It's the dickens
to avoid wicking solder up the wire.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Is this what everyone is referring to?
http://www.scosche.com/CatalogImages/image.aspx/T2.jpg
Essentially puts a little valley into the side of the lug?
When I was a boy, I remember going with my dad when he had some eye
loops made in the end of a steel cable. They had a metal "lug" that
they ran the cable through, then back through again to make a small
loop. They then put the lug into a large hydraulic press and "squished"
it quite a bit smaller. I remember that it was crushed equally and was
still round/oval after it came out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a reminder: The EV list is a public forum and is archived in many
places on the web.
This goes beyond issues of how the public perceives EVs, and affects you
personally. Anything you say here becomes part of your permanent public
record. It's available to anyone who might type your name into a search
engine tomorrow or 5 years from now - a potential employer, a litigious
coworker, a business competitor.
There is a great deal of concern, and justifiably so, over privacy in this
connected age. There are laws that give us some protection, but nothing can
protect you from your own words. Once said here, they can't be retracted.
What you say and how you say it tells the whole world - not just your fellow
EV hobbyists - a great deal about who you are.
Here's one example.
Web searches make hiring good people easier. It used to be that all one had
was a former supervisor's reference, and those are notoriously circumspect.
The HR person might end up hiring someone highly qualified who caused
dissent and disharmony in the office because of a poor attitude. But today
one can type the candidates' names into a search engine and, for example,
see that one candidate is smart but polite and diplomatic, while the other
one engages in cynical negativity and personal attacks.
It doesn't matter whether the supervisor is hiring for an EV job or an
office job. The candidates' exact words are out there, just waiting for him
or her to read. Knowledge is power.
So - think about how many people, and what kind of people, you are talking
to before you click "send." Watch yourself - the rest of the world is.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
Thanks for the informative followup!
Yes, I should have specified that I didn't mean it to work with a
traditional head unit in a typical car conversion. But more for the
lighter, custom built or minimalist EVs as you mentioned, using an
ipod or something like that for the source.
You're right that the actual energy use isn't really a big deal, but
every little helps, and the main idea would be to reduce the size and
weight of the equipment, wiring and even the 12V battery, whilst
retaining a reasonable sounding system.
I may get one to play with, and perhaps to replace the terrible stock
radio-cassette and tinny speakers in my Berlingo. Do you know of
anyone making decent, high sensitivity speakers (8 or 16 Ohm) that
would fit the normal car door position?
Thanks
Evan
On 10/5/05, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello to All,
>
> Evan, thanks for the post and the link.
>
> Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> >I thought this amplifier might be interesting to anyone who wants to
> >implement a good sound system in an EV.
> >
> >
> Though for $30 it's a very interesting product, its use in an EV to help
> build a sound system, would be extremely limited due to its 9w per 4 ohm
> channel capabilities. If one uses an iPod or some other form of digital
> storage medium like a portable MP3 player (arghh), this could indeed,
> take the low level output from a small portable device and drive a pair
> of speakers in an EV. You'd still need a more powerful amp to drive a
> subwoofer to get any serious bass. In a minimalist type EV however, like
> a scooter or light weight three wheeler such as a Gizmo, this little amp
> would be just the ticket...but that would be the full extent of its
> usefulness.
>
> >Normal car audio systems suffer from the same disease as the rest of
> >the components on an ICE - they're hot, heavy and inefficient. Big
> >heatsinks and high current demand from the 12V system. And they're
> >expensive!
> >
> >
> All true, but these same components make real power at incredibly low
> distortion, something that's needed to produce clear, vibrant, sound in
> an automobile. To get deep sub-bass from a subwoofer, you need at least
> 75 watts of power, preferably 100+ watts, and you really need at least
> 25W rms per ch. for clear, crisp full range audio from a set front
> speakers to overcome road and wind noise in a car.
>
> >An amplifier built with this chip, and driving efficient speakers
> >could be more suitable for an EV, IMHO :)
> >
> >
> True only 'if' you started out with an audio source unit that was a
> headphone driving type such as the aforementioned iPod or MP3 player.
> Most, however, prefer having an in-dash head unit, such as an AM/FM/CD
> or an AM/FM/MP3/CD type. These already have built in 4 channel amps that
> while still on the low power side of things, make a real 15-19 watts per
> channel. This little 9w per ch. amp would not serve any function at all
> if one wants the look, finish, feel, and convenience of a built in head
> unit.
>
> The idea of having a more efficient amplifier is a good one. Class T
> amps are already a reality in car audio, though not at the insanely
> cheap price of $30. Xtant has a true 100 W rms mono class T amp that
> makes this level of power into a 4 ohm load...give it a 2 ohm load and
> it doubles to 200W for making powerful bass through a pair of subs. The
> amp is about $250 though, and, you need at least three of them to get
> right and left sound stage channels plus the third mono sub channel.
> They sip 12V power while outputting low distortion, high current audio.
>
> On the other hand, though indeed inefficient at around 50%, a car audio
> system capable of blurring one's rear view mirror based on regular class
> AB car amps only uses noticeable power at very high levels, and, that
> power is not continuous, rather, it fluctuates with the music so that
> the average power consumed isn't all that high. I don't notice any
> appreciable difference in range per charge in Blue Meanie if I drive it
> with the tunes off, or the tunes on and cranked up. Yes, there will be a
> difference, but it's certainly not worth giving up 300W rms driving four
> JL Audio subs and the MB Quart sound stage array, for just 18 total
> watts driving two speakers with no sub. Besides, I need enough audio
> power to overcome the tire squealing :-)
>
> See Ya...John Wayland
>
> Blue Meanie, the world's first competition audio electric car
> (Car Audio and Electronics magazine, March '95)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About Mister Valentine motos controllers design:
I only have DC motor controller details though there is a schematics about AC
too:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/racingcontroller.html
Philippe
---------- Initial Header -----------
>From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To : "'Ryan Stotts'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc : <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Date : Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:09:37 -0400
Subject : An AC Inverter for EVs
Ryan,
During the day light hours, I design, build, and occasionally repair AC
motor inverters for 3ph induction motors and 3ph brushless dc
inverters/controllers for military applications.
An old acquaintance of mine, Chris Brune created similar experimental units
when he worked with me at Black&Decker. I don't know where Chris Brune has
gotten too these days.
I would be willing to entertain the idea of a project to build an inverter
for EV use. An initial attempt might be possible within about $5500 if all
of my time was volunteer. Hmm - not a great idea -- Let me think about this
some more.
Christopher Walter
Sent from my Motion Computing WiFi enabled Tablet PC
------------ ALICE HAUT DEBIT A 29,95 EUR/MOIS ------------
ALICEBOX, l'offre Internet tout en 1 : ADSL, téléphonie, modem Wi-Fi et en
exclusivité
la hotline gratuite 24h/24 ! Soumis à conditions. Pour en profiter cliquez ici
http://abonnement.aliceadsl.fr
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz wrote:
Hello Mark and others:
I am zooming in on the brake booster. This is why: My gast vaccum pump is
adjusted to 20mmHg (18 should be enough) and has a vacuum container. The
pump needs about 15 to 20 secs to get the vaccum stabilized and ONE, just
ONE hit on the brakes and vaccum goes all the way down to 5 mmHg with all
Some vehicles have very little reserve capacity in the booster. My MR2
drops to about 6" in one brake application.
Very few EV conversions can operate without some form of vacuum storage
tank. The tried and true method is a 8-12" length of 4" diameter
Schedule 40 PVC with endcaps and tapped for a fitting. The PVC should
be painted, both so it looks better and to protect the plastic from UV.
With an 8" tank you will get several brake applications before the pump
will need to cycle.
Your upper vacuum limit seems low. Most EVers are running close to
27-29", IIRC. (I use the metricmind pump with the built in switch so I
have no idea what it is set to.)
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul who I did the 959 Porsche conversion for a few years ago has gotten an
order for a electric , its at the bottom of the page ,
http://www.worldclassexotics.com/Murcury.htm
I don't remember how I met Paul , It was back when I had my 2nd EV the
Mercury LYNX and gave him a ride in it . So when your showing off your EV
remember you never know what somebody who sees it will do ,
steve clunn
PS
dose anybody know where I can get the side cretins ( window that snaps to
door ) for that 1930 Mercedes Gazelle Kit car ?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:12:28 +0100, "John Luck Home"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Thanks to all who have pointed me towards the Hall effect devices for
>measuring DC current without breaking into a circuit.
>
>Products from A.F Bell, LEM, HEME and Honeywell.
>
F.W. Bell (hope that's who you mean) makes among the best. If you
don't mind going up a step in cost, flux gate based instruments are
generally more stable than Hall effect.
If you're just needing a clamp-on instrument, several of the usual
test equipment suspects make 'em. Fluke has one that's OK for a
little over $100. I have one of those. Its accuracy is adequate but
one has to degauss it fairly frequently when used in DC. The Bell
instrument doesn't have that problem.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 08:26:34 -0700, Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Well, my theory is that the acetylene is so much hotter than the
>propane, you spend less time spreading heat where you don't need it.
>But I'm probably waaaay off.
True. But the major problem I have with an acetylene torch is if I'm
not paying close attention, it is trivially easy to melt or burn a
spot on the lug. A lower intensity torch makes the paying attention
part much less critical :-)
>
>Has anyone tried using one of those anti-wire-wicking things that clamp
>around the wire? Essentially a heat sink with a wire-sized hole in it ...
Yes, works but a wet rag twisted tightly around the cable works at
least as well and costs nothing.
>
>David Roden wrote:
>
>>On 4 Oct 2005 at 7:48, Eric Poulsen wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I think an
>>>oxy/acet torch would work well, with a small tip.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I've done this with so-so success using a propane torch. It's the dickens
>>to avoid wicking solder up the wire.
>>
>>
>>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>>EV List Assistant Administrator
>>
>>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
>>or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
>>send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
>>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
