EV Digest 4797
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Thoughts/questions on getting an inverter built
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: PFC20 acceptance voltage set point
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: happieness is 36,000 watts
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: happieness is 36,000 watts
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: TN EV buses on eBay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Crimp versus solder (was: Cable Crimping Tools)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) AGM battery bulk order: $85 for 110Ah 12V
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AGM battery bulk order: $85 for 110Ah 12V
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Windows for Sunrise
by Mike Swift <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DLS-55 ready to install.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Those Allbright contactors
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) MILLI-ohm meter, was: Cable Crimping Tools
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Attn Eathlink Customer,
you have a virus (was Re: Emailing: 655.html
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: AGM battery bulk order: $85 for 110Ah 12V
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: MILLI-ohm meter, was: Cable Crimping Tools
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Fusing, was: RE: Those Allbright contactors
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
>Anyone want to sponsor me for $100k of Lion batteries?
I'm suprised Kokam doesn't want to sponsor some EV's to show off their
impressive batteries.
http://www.kokam.com/english/index.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The cut back starts at a lower voltage when the Amps are up high. Really
that cut back starts when the Yellow flashes. But actual cut back action
takes a few volts between cutting back from 25 amps and full Zero amps cut
back
Are you placing a order with EV parts??
I have the Regs in hand... I can ship to EV parts or drop ship Like first
thing in the morning.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 11:23 AM
Subject: PFC20 acceptance voltage set point
> I have been trying to get the acceptance voltage set and I have noticed
> that this is not a firm point.
>
> If the amperage is at 8 that the voltage is detected way earlier than if
> I turn the current down to 2 amps, the limit light goes back off and it
> will run another hour before it hits that point. I understand this just
> to be the side effect of chargeing agaisnt a soft load? where the
> voltage depends on the current. If I charge slower. will I get a better
> charge?. Does this issue go away when I get my regulators?
>
> At present I am manually monitoring the batteries that always fill first
> and turning the amps down to 1.5 when it reaches 14.77. The pack is
> getting really close to being in balance now.
>
>
>
>
> ps why 8 amps only? Because I could't find an ammeter in fresno on a
> saturday that read more than 5 amps or had less than 5 amp divisions
> :-( This problem is solved. I ordered a ampmeter just for the charger
> from evparts.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No I ru it solo... the first couple of times I try to have somebody around.
Joe and I do most of the hard break through type work, then I push it solo.
That's the way things work around here.
I have my 999 BSD meter installed now..
I don't have to do the Kwhr math in my head now.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Niessen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: happieness is 36,000 watts
> Do you have someone standing by the main breaker when you start that
> thing? And maybe a fire truck? It seems like you would want a
> safety crew, rather then a late night solo event.
>
> Looks like you could put that capstone turbine to work and be looking
> for move. You could really warm up Goldies lead with that
> too. Back-to-Back runs with a full charge. :-)
>
> Congratz
>
> At 10/3/2005 11:13 PM, you wrote:
> >Yea... a pile of Nichrome Glowing hot... I have to get some shots of
> >the shop at night with the 75K clocking at 1/2 snort.
> >
> >This is real close to 3 Bucks a hour of Grid power.
> >
> >The whole shop was jumping up about 1.5 Degrees a minute.
> >
> >Clearly the power stage is hanging in there.
> >
> >The power bench marks are falling one by one....
> >
> >Madman is having a good time in R&D....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bragging rights well deserved !
Also include a video of your power meter spinning. Its gotta be blazing
fast.
A cold winter can't be soon enough for you.
Danny..
Rich Rudman wrote:
Yea... a pile of Nichrome Glowing hot... I have to get some shots of the shop
at night with the 75K clocking at 1/2 snort.
This is real close to 3 Bucks a hour of Grid power.
The whole shop was jumping up about 1.5 Degrees a minute.
Clearly the power stage is hanging in there.
The power bench marks are falling one by one....
Madman is having a good time in R&D....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last week the start price was 99,999
(see item nr 4578173679)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 7:15 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: TN EV buses on eBay
...with no reserve:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4580089617
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> My recommendation remains for *home* constructors is to solder the
> lugs whenever possible. Soldering can be done with tools most people
> already have at hand, propane torches, solder, flux, etc. No need to
> spend lots of money on a set of metal displacement crimpers.
All my soldering irons are under 25W as they are intended for elctronics,
so I would need to buy a torch or 100+ Watt iron to do this kind of
soldering, also my solder is a very thin gauge and no flux allowed.
On the other hand, I bought a hammer-crimper tool (picture just seen
in a recent post) for $20 including shipping on Ebay.
I will be (home-) crimping. (Which I understand is also required by code)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 11:11 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Crimp versus solder (was: Cable Crimping Tools)
On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 23:41:18 -0600, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>We have this thread about once every year. <sigh>
> The Navy studies showed that a properly crimped connection was
better than
>a crimped and soldered connection in high-vibration environments (like a
>car, for example.) This is because there is a stress concentration at the
>point where the solder stops. This causes the wire to break at that point.
>The crimped connection does not have a sharp stress concentration point.
*sigh*
The key word is, of course, "proper". I wonder how many DIY'ers have
the proper crimp tools compared to how many have propane torches and
solder? I wonder how a hammer-crimped lug would compare to a soldered
one? Hex crimped vs soldered? I wonder how many decades if ever, it
would take for a hunk of welding cable to break from vibration in a
street-going electric car?
While not having been in the position to waste taxpayers' money on
government projects at NIST, I HAVE done a little testing with a press
and spring scale. I find that the eye usually pulls out before
anything else and that the lug is almost always destroyed in the
process of pulling apart a soldered joint.
I further find that a hammer-crimped lug generally pulls off without
too much effort. Frankly, of academic interest only, since I doubt
many people are going to use traction wiring as stressed elements.
My recommendation remains for *home* constructors is to solder the
lugs whenever possible. Soldering can be done with tools most people
already have at hand, propane torches, solder, flux, etc. No need to
spend lots of money on a set of metal displacement crimpers.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quick update:
To get my US Electricar (converted S-10) on the road and help
a fellow EV to get his share of lead, I will be ordering my
batteries tomorrow (Thursday) morning with Universal Power.
My battery of choice is the UB121100 because of its 1-hour
80 Ah capacity (110Ah in 20h), 4 mOhm and its resilience to
full discharge and -last but not least- its interesting
price of $85 each including shipping in quantity.
If you want to join the bulk-order then give me a quick note
or better call me right away if you are in the SF Bay area,
the batteries will be delivered to Sunnyvale by Friday.
I can arrange for local transport within reason, as I am
not making a profit here - just busy getting my own truck
stocked up and helping another EV'er in the process to get
on the road with cheap batteries.
NOTE (disclaimer) that these batteries should work great in
an EV, because they are the best technology (AGM) to withstand
the vibration and shocks of an automotive environment. But they
have never (as far as I know) been tested in EVs, so they may
result in lower nr of cycles or other behaviour that results
in a shorter lifetime than the proven battery brands.
At less than half the price of the other brands, I am willing
to take that risk and test these batteries in my EV, but I
feel that it is not more than fair that I tell you both sides
of the story.
I am no sales man and have no interest in UB batteries, other
than getting a good price for my own purchase in a bulk buy.
I need a good price, because now I can have my batteries by
the end of this week, with the other brands I would still
be saving for a few more months an my EV be sitting idle.
These batteries will have 1-year warranty and 20% loss of
capacity qualifies as manufacturing defect (according the
sales rep).
I also asked if I needed to order all the same type batteries
and he said that I can order a mix, they all qualify for the
discount price and free shipping if its one order and one
address.
Examples of other types and prices:
Group 27 90 Ah (UB12900) $76
Group 24 75 Ah (UB12750) $62
UB12400 40Ah is one inch longer than the 35Ah Hawkers - $37
UB12350 35Ah is 7.7 x 5.1 x 7" for $27
on the other end of the scale:
200Ah 12V is 20.5 x 8.1 x 10" for $165
250Ah 12V is 20.5 x 10.5 x 10" for $222
The battery I will be running is the Group 30 UB121100 and
I will have a small secondary battery box welded as 22 of
these batteries will precisely fill up the original box
designed for 52x 35Ah Hawkers.
The remaining 4 will go in this shallow box behind the
rear axle.
I'll let you know the progress and photos in the coming
weeks, just to add to the traffic on this list ;-)
Keep chargin'
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm - interesting choice. I too have been looking at replacement batteries
and stumbled across some YUASA EN 160-6 at a very interesting price.
These have 105 A/H at the 1 hr rate (160 @ 10hr) and I.R of 1.2 milli Ohms
are 6 volts - so I need 36 for my 216v package and weigh 35Kg a piece.
What is the energy density of the UB121100 ?
The only drawback I can see with the YUASAs at the moment is that they are
not brand new. They have been used in an emergency power situation and been
on float charge for 2 years !!.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 7:47 AM
Subject: AGM battery bulk order: $85 for 110Ah 12V
> Quick update:
>
> To get my US Electricar (converted S-10) on the road and help
> a fellow EV to get his share of lead, I will be ordering my
> batteries tomorrow (Thursday) morning with Universal Power.
> My battery of choice is the UB121100 because of its 1-hour
> 80 Ah capacity (110Ah in 20h), 4 mOhm and its resilience to
> full discharge and -last but not least- its interesting
> price of $85 each including shipping in quantity.
>
> If you want to join the bulk-order then give me a quick note
> or better call me right away if you are in the SF Bay area,
> the batteries will be delivered to Sunnyvale by Friday.
> I can arrange for local transport within reason, as I am
> not making a profit here - just busy getting my own truck
> stocked up and helping another EV'er in the process to get
> on the road with cheap batteries.
>
> NOTE (disclaimer) that these batteries should work great in
> an EV, because they are the best technology (AGM) to withstand
> the vibration and shocks of an automotive environment. But they
> have never (as far as I know) been tested in EVs, so they may
> result in lower nr of cycles or other behaviour that results
> in a shorter lifetime than the proven battery brands.
> At less than half the price of the other brands, I am willing
> to take that risk and test these batteries in my EV, but I
> feel that it is not more than fair that I tell you both sides
> of the story.
> I am no sales man and have no interest in UB batteries, other
> than getting a good price for my own purchase in a bulk buy.
>
> I need a good price, because now I can have my batteries by
> the end of this week, with the other brands I would still
> be saving for a few more months an my EV be sitting idle.
>
> These batteries will have 1-year warranty and 20% loss of
> capacity qualifies as manufacturing defect (according the
> sales rep).
>
> I also asked if I needed to order all the same type batteries
> and he said that I can order a mix, they all qualify for the
> discount price and free shipping if its one order and one
> address.
> Examples of other types and prices:
> Group 27 90 Ah (UB12900) $76
> Group 24 75 Ah (UB12750) $62
> UB12400 40Ah is one inch longer than the 35Ah Hawkers - $37
> UB12350 35Ah is 7.7 x 5.1 x 7" for $27
> on the other end of the scale:
> 200Ah 12V is 20.5 x 8.1 x 10" for $165
> 250Ah 12V is 20.5 x 10.5 x 10" for $222
>
> The battery I will be running is the Group 30 UB121100 and
> I will have a small secondary battery box welded as 22 of
> these batteries will precisely fill up the original box
> designed for 52x 35Ah Hawkers.
> The remaining 4 will go in this shallow box behind the
> rear axle.
> I'll let you know the progress and photos in the coming
> weeks, just to add to the traffic on this list ;-)
>
> Keep chargin'
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.10/120 - Release Date:
05/10/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In California the DMV requires DOT approved safety glass for the
windshield. Side and backlight glass may be tempered glass, i.e. the
type that breaks into small rounded pieces when broken. Production
cars are not allowed to use plastic for windows. All of the kit cars
that I have seen use windshields from production cars, because the
tooling cost for a "new design" windshield is thousands of dollars,
and you need to order hundreds to get a good price. Unless you are
designing a very unusual car like a Sparrow or Messerschmitt Tiger
there is probably a stock windshield available. Any auto glass shop
should have the catalogs with dimensions. The same goes for side and
backlights.
On Oct 5, 2005, at 9:40 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: October 5, 2005 9:40:17 PM PDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: We got the Sunrise !!! Glass vs plastic windshields
The other point is when DOT glass is broken it will
make little bits that are not sharp and won't cut you
without alot of effort. Where as plastic can cut you
up if broken.
--- Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Glass is required by DOT because, even after a
couple of hundred thousand
miles, you can (usually) still see out of it.
Even with a "scratch resistant" coating, with time a
plastic windshield
would become so scratched and pitted that it would
make for unsafe ( or
impossible) driving.
Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The box is connected to the body of the car. LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 4:57 PM
Subject: RE: DLS-55 ready to install.
Are you somehow grounding ( earth ground) the body of the car?
If not, then you are at risk if there is a failure somewhere and the car
body becomes hot with respect to ground -- unless there is a GFI in the
power line to the charger - and, in the power line of every other piece of
equipment that has 120 or 240 AC fed to it.
I may have missed it, but why are you not using the ground line to ground
the box and car body?
Phil
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: DLS-55 ready to install.
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:08:53 -0700
I've been using the DLS with AC power to keep the aux battery charged.
I've made up a plug and will use just the hot & neutral. No ground. The
DLS is mounted to the frame of the car. Any other concerns? I'm hooking
it up to the controller so it will be on while running the car. I may
unplug while charging and plug back into the ac line. There is going to
be a precharge resistor. I am going to hook that up to the bypass relay.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> Looking at this contactor disassembled, it just dawned on me that the
> contact assembly minus the solenoid would make a great non-electric
> emergency disconnect. I'll post some photos on that too in a couple
> of days.
Another mechanical disconnect possibility is the breaker that everyone
is already supposed to have in there (I recently bought 5x 250A 160V
DC breakers - so if anyone needs just one or two, give me a shout)
What I saw in another EV was a wire from this breaker under the hood
(close to the firewall) connected to a control on the dash.
In case of a runaway (controller failure or potbox stuck or short
or overheating somewhere) you simply yank the control to pull the
wire and trip the breaker manually.
(This breaker is in the circuit straight from traction battery to
controller, before the shunt for Amp reading)
BTW - the other safety feature that every battery pack should have
is an in-line fuse to avoid plasma when the connecting wires are
shorted BEFORE the breaker or when a wrench shorts the terminals
of two batteries that are connected via the in-line fuse.
(NOTE this will not protect shorting ONE battery or adjacent
hard-wired batteries)
So one of the best ways to protect a bank that can be layed out as
a series connectoin of two adjacent strings (connect one series
from left to right, the other series from right to left) is to
wire the fuse between the end of the first string and the beginning
of the second string.
If a short is made between first and second string (any of the
terminals/interconnects of each string) then the fuse blows because
it is in the circuit.
I bought a set 400A 300V DC fuses. If you need one, let me know.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another way to rig up a sensitive and quite accurate milli-ohm
meter is to use a constant-current limited lab supply,
capable of delivering a few volts at either 1 or 10 Amp constant.
Apply this to the object you want to measure, for example with
alligator clips and then switch your DVM (Digital Volt Meter)
to its most sensitive volts scale, usually somewhere between
2V and 200mV. Measure the voltage across the transition you
want to check WITHOUT touching the alligator clips that
supply the current (otherwise you measure the resistance that
the clips have, instead of your object)
THe theory behind this is that you send a constant current of
1 or 10A through an object that you want to measure the
resistance of.
In the case of the 1A current, every milli-ohm of resistance
will be represented in a milli-volt across.
If your lug and cable are solid copper and you want to measure
the resistance of your crimp, you clip the current loop to the
lug and cable, then measure the voltage between lug and cable
and when it reads no more than 2 mV you have a good crimp
with less than 2 mOhm resistance.
For the 10A test current, you will read 10 mV for every milli-
Ohm resistance, so the measurement is more sensitive.
NOTE that the resistance really affects performance, that is
why good traction batteries have less than 5 mOhm resistance.
For example during a good acceleration you may pull 400A
from the batteries. In case your crimps are good and 1 mOhm
each, with a good 12V battery adding 4 mOhm, you have 6 mOhm
times 400A is 2.4V drop, which means you lose 20% in sag.
(The 2.4V is divided in 1.6V for the battery and 0.4V per
connection)
If your connections would have 10 mOhm resistance then each
connection would drop 4 Volts during a 400A draw, almost
all your power would go to your connection resistance and
only 12 - 4 - 4 - 1.6 = 2.4V is left for the traction.
NOTE that you cannot measure the internal resistance of the
battery with the above method, as the battery generates a
current, so it will not allow a 1 or 10A to measure the
internal resistance, just to avoid costly mistakes....
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 1:36 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cable Crimping Tools
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> If you are testing a metal to metal connection and get resistance
> that is not good. We use [a megger] to test static wics and other
> conductors all the time in the military. You crank em up and make
> sure that they are reading zero ohms.
The trouble is, a megger reads "0" ohms for anything below 1 ohm. So
does a standard multimeter. They can only tell you that a connection
exists; they can't tell you how good it is.
A high current connection needs to have a resistance less than a few
*thousandths* of an ohm! Suppose it needs to carry 100 amps; if it has
0.001 ohm of resistance, it produces P = I^2 x R = 100 x 100 x 0.001 =
10 watts of heat; it will get warm, but work. The voltage drop across
the connection will be V = I x R = 100 x 0.001 = 0.1 volts. This is a
"good" connection.
Now suppose it has 0.01 ohm of resistance; it produces 100 watts of
heat; as much as a 100 watt light bulb! Do this for more than a minute
and it will burn up! This connection also has a voltage drop of 1 volt;
it's wasting a significant fraction of your power!
You measure connection resistance with a MILLI-ohmmeter, not a megger.
(MEG-ohmmeter). It measures these sub-ohm resistances by running a
modestly high current thru them, and measuring the voltage drop with a
sensitive meter.
For hobby use, you can make one. Here is the circuit (view with a fixed
width font):
_____________________ ___________________
| || || | | |
_|_ 12v car || || | | < 10 ohm
/ \ headlight | \/ | | --->< pot
\___/ large | o| | | < (calibrate)
| alligator | /\ | | |
| clip |> <| | |
/ on/off |> <| | meter +_|_
+ | switch | 50mv / \
____|____ | full \___/
| | | scale - |
| 12v | |> <| _|_ |
| battery | |> <| _\_/_ |
| or | large | \/ | | D1 |
| charger | alligator | o| | | schottky |
|_________| clip | /\ | | diode |
| || || | |
- |____________________|| ||_______|__________|
The battery or battery charger provides the source of power. The car
headlight serves as a crude 4amp constant current limiter.
The two large alligator clips connect to the "resistance" to be
measured. They need to be large enough to handle 4 amps, and to clip
onto the size terminals you expect to test. For instance, clip one onto
the battery post itself, and the other to the terminal on that post to
measure the resistance between post and terminal.
The alligator clips need to be modified. Drill out the metal rivet that
holds the two halves together. Replace it with a plastic screw. Use
insulating washers between the metal halves so they do not touch.
Insulate the spring with pieces of wire insulation. Put it all back
together, and check with an ohmmeter to be SURE the two halves of the
clip are not shorted together.
The analog meter should be one that reads "full scale" with 0.1 volts or
less. Typically, any DC meter that reads 1 milliamp or less full-scale
will work, as will the 50mv full-scale meters normally used to measure
the voltage across a shunt, or even a general-purpose analog multimeter
with a current range that reads 1ma or less full-scale.
The schottky diode is there to protect the meter when the alliagator
clips are not connected to something. Its voltage rating is unimportant,
but it should be rated at 10 amps or more. For example, MBR1060 (60v,
10amps), Jameco #301444 $0.63 each.
To use it, clip the two alligator clips onto the connection to be
tested, THEN turn on the power switch. The left sides of the alligator
clips run about 4 amps thru the connection under test. The right sides
of the alligator clips measure the voltage across the connection at this
current. The higher the meter reading, the worse the connection.
To calibrate it, you need a known resistance. A shunt is a good choice
for a precision resistor. For instance, if you have a 50amp 50mv shunt,
its resistance is R = 0.05v / 50a = 0.001 ohm. Either mark the meter's
scale, or adjust the 10-ohm pot to a convenient number. For example, if
you used a meter that is 50 microamps full-scale, you could set the pot
so it reads 1 microamp; then microamps = milliohms (10ua = 10 milliohms
= 0.01 ohm, etc.)
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The email to the EVDL claiming to come from Sharron Hoopes was actually
from an Earthlink customer.
If you have the following people in your email contacts, then you are
probably the one with the virus:
"Chris & Christine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (address edited to prevent spam)
"Daniel Rivest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Jerry & dors Labine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"mischsteyla.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"qof_4" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you don't have anti-virus software, or it's out of date, please get up
to date anti-virus protection.
There is no excuse for not having anti-virus software, there are numerous
free products available for home use.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John
Here is the spec:
http://www.universalpowergroup.com/specs/D5751.pdf
So the energy density in Wh/kg for the most practical 1h rate
(80Ah) would be 80Ah x 12V / 33 kg = 1080 / 33 = 33 Wh/kg
These are new batteries, guaranteed the same date code for
the entire shipment (on request) and with the rate they sell
them (several thousand of this type in stock in TX) the
production date will be somewhere summer 2005.
1 Year manufacturers warranty.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Luck Home
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 12:30 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: AGM battery bulk order: $85 for 110Ah 12V
Hmmm - interesting choice. I too have been looking at replacement batteries
and stumbled across some YUASA EN 160-6 at a very interesting price.
These have 105 A/H at the 1 hr rate (160 @ 10hr) and I.R of 1.2 milli Ohms
are 6 volts - so I need 36 for my 216v package and weigh 35Kg a piece.
What is the energy density of the UB121100 ?
The only drawback I can see with the YUASAs at the moment is that they are
not brand new. They have been used in an emergency power situation and been
on float charge for 2 years !!.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 7:47 AM
Subject: AGM battery bulk order: $85 for 110Ah 12V
> Quick update:
>
> To get my US Electricar (converted S-10) on the road and help
> a fellow EV to get his share of lead, I will be ordering my
> batteries tomorrow (Thursday) morning with Universal Power.
> My battery of choice is the UB121100 because of its 1-hour
> 80 Ah capacity (110Ah in 20h), 4 mOhm and its resilience to
> full discharge and -last but not least- its interesting
> price of $85 each including shipping in quantity.
>
> If you want to join the bulk-order then give me a quick note
> or better call me right away if you are in the SF Bay area,
> the batteries will be delivered to Sunnyvale by Friday.
> I can arrange for local transport within reason, as I am
> not making a profit here - just busy getting my own truck
> stocked up and helping another EV'er in the process to get
> on the road with cheap batteries.
>
> NOTE (disclaimer) that these batteries should work great in
> an EV, because they are the best technology (AGM) to withstand
> the vibration and shocks of an automotive environment. But they
> have never (as far as I know) been tested in EVs, so they may
> result in lower nr of cycles or other behaviour that results
> in a shorter lifetime than the proven battery brands.
> At less than half the price of the other brands, I am willing
> to take that risk and test these batteries in my EV, but I
> feel that it is not more than fair that I tell you both sides
> of the story.
> I am no sales man and have no interest in UB batteries, other
> than getting a good price for my own purchase in a bulk buy.
>
> I need a good price, because now I can have my batteries by
> the end of this week, with the other brands I would still
> be saving for a few more months an my EV be sitting idle.
>
> These batteries will have 1-year warranty and 20% loss of
> capacity qualifies as manufacturing defect (according the
> sales rep).
>
> I also asked if I needed to order all the same type batteries
> and he said that I can order a mix, they all qualify for the
> discount price and free shipping if its one order and one
> address.
> Examples of other types and prices:
> Group 27 90 Ah (UB12900) $76
> Group 24 75 Ah (UB12750) $62
> UB12400 40Ah is one inch longer than the 35Ah Hawkers - $37
> UB12350 35Ah is 7.7 x 5.1 x 7" for $27
> on the other end of the scale:
> 200Ah 12V is 20.5 x 8.1 x 10" for $165
> 250Ah 12V is 20.5 x 10.5 x 10" for $222
>
> The battery I will be running is the Group 30 UB121100 and
> I will have a small secondary battery box welded as 22 of
> these batteries will precisely fill up the original box
> designed for 52x 35Ah Hawkers.
> The remaining 4 will go in this shallow box behind the
> rear axle.
> I'll let you know the progress and photos in the coming
> weeks, just to add to the traffic on this list ;-)
>
> Keep chargin'
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.10/120 - Release Date:
05/10/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My guess is that if you rig up your millivoltmeter across any of your inter
battery connections whilst your EV is accelerating it will show a small
number of millivolts across the two ends of the interconnecting leads. If
you also know the current being drawn then you can calculate the resistance
of the suspect lead using ohms law.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 9:14 AM
Subject: MILLI-ohm meter, was: Cable Crimping Tools
> Another way to rig up a sensitive and quite accurate milli-ohm
> meter is to use a constant-current limited lab supply,
> capable of delivering a few volts at either 1 or 10 Amp constant.
>
> Apply this to the object you want to measure, for example with
> alligator clips and then switch your DVM (Digital Volt Meter)
> to its most sensitive volts scale, usually somewhere between
> 2V and 200mV. Measure the voltage across the transition you
> want to check WITHOUT touching the alligator clips that
> supply the current (otherwise you measure the resistance that
> the clips have, instead of your object)
>
> THe theory behind this is that you send a constant current of
> 1 or 10A through an object that you want to measure the
> resistance of.
> In the case of the 1A current, every milli-ohm of resistance
> will be represented in a milli-volt across.
> If your lug and cable are solid copper and you want to measure
> the resistance of your crimp, you clip the current loop to the
> lug and cable, then measure the voltage between lug and cable
> and when it reads no more than 2 mV you have a good crimp
> with less than 2 mOhm resistance.
>
> For the 10A test current, you will read 10 mV for every milli-
> Ohm resistance, so the measurement is more sensitive.
>
> NOTE that the resistance really affects performance, that is
> why good traction batteries have less than 5 mOhm resistance.
> For example during a good acceleration you may pull 400A
> from the batteries. In case your crimps are good and 1 mOhm
> each, with a good 12V battery adding 4 mOhm, you have 6 mOhm
> times 400A is 2.4V drop, which means you lose 20% in sag.
> (The 2.4V is divided in 1.6V for the battery and 0.4V per
> connection)
> If your connections would have 10 mOhm resistance then each
> connection would drop 4 Volts during a 400A draw, almost
> all your power would go to your connection resistance and
> only 12 - 4 - 4 - 1.6 = 2.4V is left for the traction.
>
> NOTE that you cannot measure the internal resistance of the
> battery with the above method, as the battery generates a
> current, so it will not allow a 1 or 10A to measure the
> internal resistance, just to avoid costly mistakes....
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 1:36 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Cable Crimping Tools
>
>
> Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> > If you are testing a metal to metal connection and get resistance
> > that is not good. We use [a megger] to test static wics and other
> > conductors all the time in the military. You crank em up and make
> > sure that they are reading zero ohms.
>
> The trouble is, a megger reads "0" ohms for anything below 1 ohm. So
> does a standard multimeter. They can only tell you that a connection
> exists; they can't tell you how good it is.
>
> A high current connection needs to have a resistance less than a few
> *thousandths* of an ohm! Suppose it needs to carry 100 amps; if it has
> 0.001 ohm of resistance, it produces P = I^2 x R = 100 x 100 x 0.001 =
> 10 watts of heat; it will get warm, but work. The voltage drop across
> the connection will be V = I x R = 100 x 0.001 = 0.1 volts. This is a
> "good" connection.
>
> Now suppose it has 0.01 ohm of resistance; it produces 100 watts of
> heat; as much as a 100 watt light bulb! Do this for more than a minute
> and it will burn up! This connection also has a voltage drop of 1 volt;
> it's wasting a significant fraction of your power!
>
> You measure connection resistance with a MILLI-ohmmeter, not a megger.
> (MEG-ohmmeter). It measures these sub-ohm resistances by running a
> modestly high current thru them, and measuring the voltage drop with a
> sensitive meter.
>
> For hobby use, you can make one. Here is the circuit (view with a fixed
> width font):
> _____________________ ___________________
> | || || | | |
> _|_ 12v car || || | | < 10 ohm
> / \ headlight | \/ | | --->< pot
> \___/ large | o| | | < (calibrate)
> | alligator | /\ | | |
> | clip |> <| | |
> / on/off |> <| | meter +_|_
> + | switch | 50mv / \
> ____|____ | full \___/
> | | | scale - |
> | 12v | |> <| _|_ |
> | battery | |> <| _\_/_ |
> | or | large | \/ | | D1 |
> | charger | alligator | o| | | schottky |
> |_________| clip | /\ | | diode |
> | || || | |
> - |____________________|| ||_______|__________|
>
> The battery or battery charger provides the source of power. The car
> headlight serves as a crude 4amp constant current limiter.
>
> The two large alligator clips connect to the "resistance" to be
> measured. They need to be large enough to handle 4 amps, and to clip
> onto the size terminals you expect to test. For instance, clip one onto
> the battery post itself, and the other to the terminal on that post to
> measure the resistance between post and terminal.
>
> The alligator clips need to be modified. Drill out the metal rivet that
> holds the two halves together. Replace it with a plastic screw. Use
> insulating washers between the metal halves so they do not touch.
> Insulate the spring with pieces of wire insulation. Put it all back
> together, and check with an ohmmeter to be SURE the two halves of the
> clip are not shorted together.
>
> The analog meter should be one that reads "full scale" with 0.1 volts or
> less. Typically, any DC meter that reads 1 milliamp or less full-scale
> will work, as will the 50mv full-scale meters normally used to measure
> the voltage across a shunt, or even a general-purpose analog multimeter
> with a current range that reads 1ma or less full-scale.
>
> The schottky diode is there to protect the meter when the alliagator
> clips are not connected to something. Its voltage rating is unimportant,
> but it should be rated at 10 amps or more. For example, MBR1060 (60v,
> 10amps), Jameco #301444 $0.63 each.
>
> To use it, clip the two alligator clips onto the connection to be
> tested, THEN turn on the power switch. The left sides of the alligator
> clips run about 4 amps thru the connection under test. The right sides
> of the alligator clips measure the voltage across the connection at this
> current. The higher the meter reading, the worse the connection.
>
> To calibrate it, you need a known resistance. A shunt is a good choice
> for a precision resistor. For instance, if you have a 50amp 50mv shunt,
> its resistance is R = 0.05v / 50a = 0.001 ohm. Either mark the meter's
> scale, or adjust the 10-ohm pot to a convenient number. For example, if
> you used a meter that is 50 microamps full-scale, you could set the pot
> so it reads 1 microamp; then microamps = milliohms (10ua = 10 milliohms
> = 0.01 ohm, etc.)
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.10/120 - Release Date:
05/10/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:14 AM 6/10/05 -0700, Cor van de Water wrote:
I bought a set 400A 300V DC fuses. If you need one, let me know.
Hi Cor
looking down the curve for a HRC (high rupture capacity) fuse at 400A, the
relevant current rupture points points are as follows:
400A - forever
800A - 1000 seconds
1000A - 200 seconds
1500A - 10 seconds
2000A - 3 seconds
2500A - 1 second
3000A - 0.5 seconds
What kind of large truck or race car do you have?
Alternatively can I swap you some smaller fuses for a breaker? (I bought a
collection of several thousand HRC fuses from an industrial salvage co for
a few cents in the dollar, ranging from a few amps up to 800A).
James
--- End Message ---
